Gun Dog Forum

After watching alot of dogs,and how they are being put up,and then having two young pups(5 months) I ask this simple question.
Which would you want to own,and put up for a win.
A dog who is a nice stylish dog who is consistant,runs foward and finds alot of game,or the on the edge,big running dog who has fewer finds,but runs much bigger,and keeps you wondering.

Number one. They don't have to run big to be just as exciting.

Ezzy

Hunters are going to say one, I think many of the FTers will say two.

One for me...

Depends on what you're entered in

Number 1 for everything but all age

for all age number 2 will be what majority of the judges will be looking for

Neither.

What is the second dog making you wonder about?

If the search is done with a proper pattern the bigger running dog should find you more birds.

I personally like bigger running ,now if they have not learned to use their nose properly and have an efficient pattern of hunting for birds ,one can have a closer working dog leave as many birds behind as the big running one.

In pups I rather have the big running one provided it shows that it will learn to hunt properly because this is the one that will do all the jobs eventually right as the terrain variation and game characteristics change.

You can have a bigger running dog adapt to be big and close range dog as the conditions and type of game dictate plus the bigger running dog usually will be the one with the better stamina after being trained to be a hunting dog.

I experienced that when I made through training and huge hunting exposure field trial breeding dogs that never run trials but worked all their lives as hunting dogs.
They could hunt properly at four hundred yards in open terrain on partridge and switch to fifty yards in super thick cover on other type of game,important factor is in both situations they would check back with me with in a minute or less if they lost me regardless if that happened from being too fat away or because the cover is too thick where you loose them at 15 yards....

Mario

#2

Doug

I don't think it's one or two, but a combination. I want a dog that has the ability and the "animation" to run to the "edge's". To run according to the terrain. The dog should not pass birds just for the sake of range, but should have the ability to stretch out to find birds if he needs too. If the dog is trained properly, I'm never left "wondering". It may just be a question of finding him on point (thank you Mr Astro!) jmo.

Number one...No brainer for me.

Charlie

We all would like to have the dog that will run to the edge but our choice here is one that stays to the front and finds MORE birds. Running to the edge holds no appeal whenthe birds are closer than that. And the dog is no more thrilling finding a bird 500 yds away than 100 or 50. I want the dog that only runs till it finds a bird. That is the key in my mind.

Ezzy

#1 easy.

larue wrote:After watching alot of dogs,and how they are being put up,and then having two young pups(5 months) I ask this simple question.
Which would you want to own,and put up for a win.
A dog who is a nice stylish dog who is consistant,runs foward and finds alot of game,or the on the edge,big running dog who has fewer finds,but runs much bigger,and keeps you wondering.

What venue? Shoot to retrieve, tournament? A walking gun dog or an AA dog?
And your description kind of colors the choice. Nice, stylish, consistant, lot of game (positive attributes) vs on the edge, big running, fewer, keeps you wondering (dicey attributes). Nothing mentioned about application and application counts for a bunch.

Both can be fun, and both can be boring. Depends on where you run.

Talk about a leading question. You need a professional poll designer to make it less obvious.

In the contest of the question, which is essentially..."Which dog will win?" ... The answer is not clear.

If dog two has at least two solid, stylish finds and dog one has four or five during its brace, then dog two is going to get the nod in most any horseback stake because once the dog has proved it can find birds and handle them with style, additional finds generally show nothing much more to a judge.

A lot of hunters, and a lot of trialers for that matter, simply do not get the fact that counting finds is not what horseback field trial judges typically do. The good ones want to evaluate the "whole" package, including ground application, endurance, gait, as well as handling AND manners and style on game.

A dog that "makes you wonder", I will assume is out of sight and the wondering is along the lines of "Will I see that SOB again?" In a walking stake, that ain't so good, but in a horseback stake, especially an all age stake, that "anticipation" is part of what is being looked for.

Me personally, I want a dog that does both, because sometimes you may need both...in the same brace.

RayG

larue wrote:After watching alot of dogs,and how they are being put up,and then having two young pups(5 months) I ask this simple question.
Which would you want to own,and put up for a win.
A dog who is a nice stylish dog who is consistant,runs foward and finds alot of game,or the on the edge,big running dog who has fewer finds,but runs much bigger,and keeps you wondering.

As an AA guy, and the pups are 5 months old I would pick #1. I want the dog that is always around birds. The dog will range more as it develops. The key to the trial game is birds. Can't win a CH without it. The consistent AA winners are bird dogs.

I would take them both and see which one turns out better, figuring out exactly how a pup is going to turn out a 5 mos is a stretch.

If dog one is working continually in a specific type and/or area of cover looking for singles and dog two is out reaching for likely spots where one would expect to find groups of birds, gimme number 2.

How many birds each will find is a function of where the planter puts the birds. Rarely in a trial have I seen the majority of birds placed where I would want my dog to be looking.

Kmack wrote:If dog one is working continually in a specific type and/or area of cover looking for singles and dog two is out reaching for likely spots where one would expect to find groups of birds, gimme number 2.

How many birds each will find is a function of where the planter puts the birds. Rarely in a trial have I seen the majority of birds placed where I would want my dog to be looking.

Im not being a smart "bleep" here, but as a guy interested in future trials/tests, why would birds in a trial be planted in a place that hunters would rarely want their dog to look?? That makes ZERo sense, if Im understanding it correctly.

baileydog2007 wrote:

Kmack wrote:If dog one is working continually in a specific type and/or area of cover looking for singles and dog two is out reaching for likely spots where one would expect to find groups of birds, gimme number 2.

How many birds each will find is a function of where the planter puts the birds. Rarely in a trial have I seen the majority of birds placed where I would want my dog to be looking.

Im not being a smart "bleep" here, but as a guy interested in future trials/tests, why would birds in a trial be planted in a place that hunters would rarely want their dog to look?? That makes ZERo sense, if Im understanding it correctly.

One thing it depends on is who and how much experience the bird planters have. Another thing it would depend on is what type of trial it is. Then of course it can also depend on who is observing and making the comment re: where a dog should hunt.

baileydog2007 wrote:

Kmack wrote:If dog one is working continually in a specific type and/or area of cover looking for singles and dog two is out reaching for likely spots where one would expect to find groups of birds, gimme number 2.

How many birds each will find is a function of where the planter puts the birds. Rarely in a trial have I seen the majority of birds placed where I would want my dog to be looking.

Im not being a smart "bleep" here, but as a guy interested in future trials/tests, why would birds in a trial be planted in a place that hunters would rarely want their dog to look?? That makes ZERo sense, if Im understanding it correctly.

Two reasons.

One, on a small field, the birds are placed in the middle of the field to keep them in bounds and just to get them spread out. This is not where wild birds would gather during the time of day trials are held.

On the bigger courses, they are often planted by folks either on a 4-wheeler or on horse back. They tend to put the birds in places which they can get to easily with their mode of transportation. Another thing I see is that many bird planters are hunters who are used to walking a path through a field and keeping their dog in contact, hoping it finds the birds he walks the dog to. Most hunters hunt singles once the big group of birds is split up. So they plant their birds in places which would be similar to where singles would be after a covey or group has been broken. Singles are easier quarry because they get up alone, and for many species, getting close to the big group of birds is difficult.


In my opinion, the purpose of the dog is to find the big groups so the hunters can take a few from several groups. When the big group is split up, you can send in the flushers to work the singles and let the pointers back out to find more big groups.

Just my perspective...

^Thanks. I was just curious. Good info and makes sense.

I've actually watched a dog like #1 and #2 braced together #1 had 6 finds and #2 ran three entire 30 minute courses and found one bird.Dog #1 couldn't get to run like #2 because it was a birdfinder and when birds get in the way it is pretty danged hard to show run.This was a horseback trial and Dog#2 stole the show........................However he ran by all 6 birds that dog #1 stopped to point.................I'll take #1 for a dual duty dog hunting/trialing over #2 anyday.The #1 dog reached and looked in the right spots where birds should be and he found them,funny thing was #2 also swooshed by the ridgelines and rock outcroppings as well but obviously the dog was outrunning his nose.The style of point and manners around game was flawless by both specimens. For you setter fans dog #1 was a son of Destinare and #2 was a son of Mona's Delight.


Like my pro and a few of his buddies have told me............."Run ain't everything"

Can't believe that no one has asked this question....but on average, is there a difference in temperament between #1 and #2? Which of these two dogs is most likely to be a PITA to live with...or is that not important?

JKP wrote:Can't believe that no one has asked this question....but on average, is there a difference in temperament between #1 and #2? Which of these two dogs is most likely to be a POA to live with...or is that not important?

For the love of Mike, how in the whole of the world to you propose to tell that from the tiny bit of slanted information that was given? Maybe no one mentioned it because it is not something that anyone would venture to make a guess on that would have any shred of basis in fact.

Who plants a trial and goes to an easy place to plant.

When people are planting for a field trial the birds should be in objectives that would.make the dog look good as well as not being on a horse or quad track. The birds that are down there should only be the ones that were found and blanked.

ultracarry wrote:Who plants a trial and goes to an easy place to plant.

When people are planting for a field trial the birds should be in objectives that would.make the dog look good as well as not being on a horse or quad track. The birds that are down there should only be the ones that were found and blanked.

Ultra - Unfortunately, a lot of times,especially at weekend trials, bird planting is done by the inexperienced newcomer who made the mistake of volunteering. So, Yes birds get planted along the horsetrack, in easy places and worst of all, at bottlenecks where trhe dogs HAVE to go through(can you say trainwreck??)

I competely agree with how you try to plant a course. I'd run a dog on a course you plant that way...anytime.

RayG

larue wrote:After watching alot of dogs,and how they are being put up,and then having two young pups(5 months) I ask this simple question.
Which would you want to own,and put up for a win.
A dog who is a nice stylish dog who is consistant,runs foward and finds alot of game,or the on the edge,big running dog who has fewer finds,but runs much bigger,and keeps you wondering.

One of each please. Actually, that's what I have except the "fewer finds" thing. They are about the same in that category.

JKP just out of curiosity which dog do you think would be a PITA to live with??? How a dog runs or hunts has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

JKP just out of curiosity which dog do you think would be a PITA to live with??? How a dog runs or hunts has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

I think its a legitimate question...sorry if it irritates you. Just asking if there is often an accompanying temperament that goes with dogs that are "out on the edge"...as opposed to the stylish not so hot highly charged style of dog. Being a "bootlicker man", I wouldn't know.

Doesn't irritate me at all but like I said one has NOTHING to do with the other.A bootlicker can be a PITA just as an out on the edge dog can be loving gentle lap dog.

BELIEVE IT OR NOT!!

JKP wrote:

JKP just out of curiosity which dog do you think would be a PITA to live with??? How a dog runs or hunts has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

I think its a legitimate question...sorry if it irritates you. Just asking if there is often an accompanying temperament that goes with dogs that are "out on the edge"...as opposed to the stylish not so hot highly charged style of dog. Being a "bootlicker man", I wouldn't know.

JKP -


If you have been into dogs as long as you say you have, all I can say is you ain't learned much in all that time if you can honestly ask that kind of stupid question.

You should already know one has absolutely nothing to do with another.

Sorry if my response iritates you, but I think someone who has been into dogs for, what was it...thirty years?? has got to know better. Careful now, your bias is showing.

RayG

I want one just like this.

"The Amesian Standard
The dog under consideration must have and display great bird sense. He must show perfect work on both coveys and singles. He must be able quickly to determine between foot and body scent. He must use his brains, eyes, and nose to the fullest advantage and hunt the likely places on the course. He must possess speed, range, style, character, courage, and stamina—and good manners, always. He must hunt the birds, and not the handler hunt the dog. No line or path runner is acceptable. He must be well broken, and the better his manners the more clearly he proves his sound training. Should he lose a little in class, as expressed in extreme speed and range, he can make up for this, under fair judgment, in a single piece of superior bird work, or in sustained demonstration of general behavior. He must be bold, snappy, and spirited. His range must be to the front or to either side, but never behind. He must be regularly and habitually pleasingly governable (tractable) and must know when to turn and keeps his handler’s course in view, and at all times keep uppermost in his mind the finding and pointing of birds for his handler."

I like to get this printed on a back of a shirt when am handleing a dog...So the judges can read...lol