Ngspa national champion "title withheld" ????????

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Hotchkiss
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Ngspa national champion "title withheld" ????????

Post by Hotchkiss » Mon Apr 25, 2011 8:59 pm

When looking at past champions what does it mean when it says "title withheld"?

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Re: Ngspa national champion "title withheld" ????????

Post by ultracarry » Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:13 pm

Did not perform to standards

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Re: Ngspa national champion "title withheld" ????????

Post by Hotchkiss » Tue Apr 26, 2011 5:40 am

Okay, I will ask the obvious question - then why did they pick the dig as the champion?

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Re: Ngspa national champion "title withheld" ????????

Post by Sharon » Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:07 am

Judges don't like to send the fans home with no dogs highlighted as having done well.

That dog didn't perform at Championship standards but was the best dog they saw.
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Re: Ngspa national champion "title withheld" ????????

Post by shags » Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:52 am

Where did you read the report? I'm kind of confused by what you're asking. Title witheld would be that no dog met the standards, and no dog was named CH.
Title withdrawn means that a dog won the stake, but did not meet some qualification, like DNA or perhaps was entered despite not having qualified for the championship.

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Re: Ngspa national champion "title withheld" ????????

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:23 am

Shags is right. I am not familiar with the sitation youare referring to, but, there are two basic reasons why a title is not awarded at an AF championship.

The first reason is that no dog delivered what the judges deemed to be a championship performance. That does not happen all that often, but it does happen. In that instance the stake reverts to a one hour event where first, second and third are typically awarded.

The second reason for not awarding a title is that the dog, or handler is in some way not qualified. It could be that the dog does not have a qualifying placement or that the handler is in some way ineligible to run. It could also be that the dog does not have a DNA profile on file with FDSB. It is my understanding that if a dog wins a Championship and does not have a DNA profile on file, the owner has a certain period of time to get it done or the placement and the Championship status will be voided.

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Re: Ngspa national champion "title withheld" ????????

Post by Wagonmaster » Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:35 am

Assuming you are reading the list of NGSPA National Champions, the title is occasionally withheld. The official reason would be that no dog met the standard. However, the practicality is that Booneville is a very tough course, finds are not common, and dogs get lost. The typical qualified entry is around 22 dogs, and up until the last two years the entries were all dogs that had previously gone RU or CH in an hour CH, so none were slouches. The qualifications have changed a little, but they are still not slouches. So when you see a "withheld" these days, what has happened in all likelihood, is that the conditions on the course in a given year were very tough, and dogs were either getting lost or getting around but with no finds.

There have been years at Booneville recently where the course was heavily flooded, which resulted in lost dogs, or where late season snows required that the course be completely changed.

It is course that takes a bird dog with alot of heart to win on as far as I am concerned, and it is a credit to the NGSPA judges that they withhold when no dog can meet the standard, rather than giving the NC to a dog that got around, but without a true championship performance.

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Re: Ngspa national champion "title withheld" ????????

Post by Hotchkiss » Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:21 am

I did read it for one or more dogs on NGSPA's list of past Champions. It was wit held in 2010, 08,07 and 06. One of those years did not even list a dog in the AA class.

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Re: Ngspa national champion "title withheld" ????????

Post by Wagonmaster » Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:31 pm

Well, I am pretty sure it was not withheld in 2007, either that or I better give em the trophy back. I also sort of remember this picture I posed for, that was in the Field, course I am getting old and that could all have been a dream or something but I kinda don't think so.

And I am pretty sure Tonelli's Little Stinker won it in 2010, at least that's what Jim Messer's cap says. I know it was withheld in 2008, I was there and I know how close we came. I know it was awarded in 2009, the trophy is nicer than the one they were giving out in 2007 by the way.

Where are you reading this information?

Understand, not meant as criticism, just wondering where this is coming from.

Just for fun, why don't you click on the link in my signature line and just see what it says about '07 in particular.
Last edited by Wagonmaster on Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ngspa national champion "title withheld" ????????

Post by Ditch__Parrot » Tue Apr 26, 2011 12:42 pm

Congrats on your accomplishments Wagonmaster. Sig lines not listed unless logged in ? When did that start ? Conspiracy to force me to log in going on here. :lol:
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Re: Ngspa national champion "title withheld" ????????

Post by Wagonmaster » Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:43 pm

Oh, heck, thanks but it is awhile ago, and the dog did it, not me. I just had fun following along.

Just trying to get our OP set on the right course here.

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Re: Ngspa national champion "title withheld" ????????

Post by Hotchkiss » Tue Apr 26, 2011 7:04 pm

Wagonmaster wrote:Well, I am pretty sure it was not withheld in 2007, either that or I better give em the trophy back. I also sort of remember this picture I posed for, that was in the Field, course I am getting old and that could all have been a dream or something but I kinda don't think so.

And I am pretty sure Tonelli's Little Stinker won it in 2010, at least that's what Jim Messer's cap says. I know it was withheld in 2008, I was there and I know how close we came. I know it was awarded in 2009, the trophy is nicer than the one they were giving out in 2007 by the way.

Where are you reading this information?

Understand, not meant as criticism, just wondering where this is coming from.

Just for fun, why don't you click on the link in my signature line and just see what it says about '07 in particular.

Okay looked at the list again. The title withheld for those years appears to actually be for the runner up. There was one year 08 I think where the champion and ru were withheld. Only 11 dogs that year.

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Re: Ngspa national champion "title withheld" ????????

Post by BigShooter » Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:10 pm

One thing to remember is some of the technical rules and how they are applied by judges. If I remember '08 correctly, an owner was told his dog would've been put up for NC that year except that the dog could not be produced at the end of the hour. I believe the dog was found several minutes after time expired, standing on point. Leeway has been shown by judges at times. In this case the letter of the law was applied & the NC title was withheld.
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Re: Ngspa national champion "title withheld" ????????

Post by Wildweeds » Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:05 am

You can win a lot if you name your dog "withheld" :lol:

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Re: Ngspa national champion "title withheld" ????????

Post by Hotchkiss » Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:53 am

Wildweeds wrote:You can win a lot if you name your dog "withheld" :lol:

That is pretty funny!

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Re: Ngspa national champion "title withheld" ????????

Post by slistoe » Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:36 am

Had a fellow up here that did that with a Brittany. It was a very good dog and he actually did win a lot with the dog. He had some trouble with the CKC in getting his wins accurately recorded.

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Re: Ngspa national champion "title withheld" ????????

Post by Wagonmaster » Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:34 am

Yes, we all admire the well known Ch. Withheld. That dog has won many times, and seems to have a knack for winning when the rest of us just can't get it done.

Withholding of RU is a little different than withholding of Ch. In the GSP world, both at the GSPCA and at the NGSPA Nationals, dogs are judged both to a standard and against each other. So the title will be withheld even if a dog gets around clean, if the dog did not meet the standard. To judge to the standard, the judges will generally have in mind what they think a really good dog would do on those grounds. When a dog is named Ch., the dog shows the judges what is possible on that course and in those conditions. And so that dog has set the bar for the others. Sometimes the judges withhold RU because the other dogs, although good, just did not match the performance of the dog declared Ch.

And at Booneville, that is a tough tough course for All Age dogs in many ways. It is difficult to get an All Age around without losing it because the course is brushy and lots of roads for a dog to follow off course. A dog definitely has to handle. If the handler does manage to get the dog around, Booneville just has a way of absorbing all the birds. The are all still there, but way back in the woods, or two treelines off the course, so it takes more than an average performance for a dog to succeed in getting around the course as an All Age, and having a find or two. So it also happens that there is only one dog in that field that accomplishes all that.

GSP field trialers have a sort of love/hate relationship with that course at Booneville. We all know it is a tough course. We can all think of easier places to run a dog. But we all have a tremendous amount of respect for a dog that can win the NC on that course, it is not easy. This is my personal opinion, but I often think there are more than one kind of All Age dog. Some breeders are so into the run that they breed dogs for run and forget that they are supposed to have a nose and be useful hunting dogs. Those dogs can win if the trial course is heavily salted with birds, so somewhere during the course of the hour the dog will stumble across one, have a find, and the rest of the hour is all running. That is not, in my opinion, what an All Age dog is. The All Age dog is the dog that runs two treelines over to find you birds on a course where they are scarce, and succeeds. Booneville is the kind of course that bird dogs do well on.

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Re: Ngspa national champion "title withheld" ????????

Post by Hotchkiss » Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:58 pm

Why doesn't the NGSPA rotate locations for the national championship?

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Re: Ngspa national champion "title withheld" ????????

Post by Wagonmaster » Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:07 pm

The GSPCA doesn't either. Years ago, the GSPCA National Championships rotated. What happened was that the GSPCA Nationals were in effect a "regional" national championship. If they were on the East Coast, predominantly East Coast people and dogs came and most often won, if they were in the Central Midwest, predominantly Midwesterners came and won, if they were on the West Coat, predominantly West Coast people came and won. The idea was to make the event inclusive, so everyone would have a chance to come sometime, but the effect it had was mostly to exclude. Attendance would get pretty small when it was held in some areas. Moreover, with the rotated nationals, the event was always being held on grounds that some of the people and dogs were familiar with, cause they ran there alot or ever trained there (it was local to them), but others weren't. That doesn't happen with either of the Nationals grounds, Eureka for the GSPCA or Booneville for the NGSPA. Holding it on one set of good grounds in one place meant that everyone knew when and where it would be held, and what the grounds would be like. Works out fairly and the events are well attended by people from everywhere.

The great American Field national championship, which is just called the National Championship, is also held on the same grounds every year in Grand Junction, TN.

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