Tri color gsp "fad"...

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Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by ACooper » Sat May 21, 2011 8:11 pm

Anyone notice the tri colored gsp in the sportsman's pride dog food add in the summer qf/pf magazine? I hope we don't start seeing adds for "rare tri colors". Probably only a matter of time...

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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by snips » Sat May 21, 2011 8:49 pm

8) 8) 8) 8) 8) :o
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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by lvrgsp » Sat May 21, 2011 9:08 pm

Nah it's just Gelber Brand man................You dont now what your talking about Coop................ :mrgreen:

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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by PrairieGoat » Sat May 21, 2011 9:20 pm

Probably from all that EP crossbreeding!!! :twisted:

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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by Cajun Casey » Sat May 21, 2011 9:44 pm

I seriously doubt it was pointer that contributed the rusty tan pattern to German shorthairs.
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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Sun May 22, 2011 8:57 am

I seem to remember this very subject being discussed a yr or so back when one was bought from a very respected breeder & most saw nothing wrong with it.I was not one of them but was critasised for my take on it becoming an excuse for rarity & accepstance.Hmmmmmmmmmmm!!!

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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by ACooper » Sun May 22, 2011 9:52 am

I don't have a problem if it pops up in a litter, my point is I hope people don't start breeding for it.

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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by chiendog » Sun May 22, 2011 10:09 am

I have no idea where the tri-color coats in some lines of modern GSPs are coming from or if, as mentioned, they qualify as just "Gelber brand" markings. But the issue of tri-color coats in GSPs has been around since the very beginning. In fact in the late 1800s/early 1900s a breed known as the Tri-colored Wurttemberger (dreifarbigen Württemberger or dreifarbige Württembergische Vorstehhund) was registered in GSP (Deutsch Kurzhaar) studbooks. The Wurttemberger eventually disappeared, probably by being absorbed into the main population of GSPs and the tri color coat eliminated...or so it is thought. The genes may still be there in some lines and if, in a one in a million chance they happen to line up, you can get tri-color coats (or Gelber Brand). The same thing applies to long haired coats. While extremely rare, it is not impossible that a longhaired GSP could occur in a litter out of shorthaired parents ( see page 27 Der Deutsch Kurzhaar by Georgina Byrne).

Wurttemberger
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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by Cajun Casey » Sun May 22, 2011 10:24 am

chiendog wrote:I have no idea where the tri-color coats in some lines of modern GSPs are coming from or if, as mentioned, they qualify as just "Gelber brand" markings. But the issue of tri-color coats in GSPs has been around since the very beginning. In fact in the late 1800s/early 1900s a breed known as the Tri-colored Wurttemberger (dreifarbigen Württemberger or dreifarbige Württembergische Vorstehhund) was registered in GSP (Deutsch Kurzhaar) studbooks. The Wurttemberger eventually disappeared, probably by being absorbed into the main population of GSPs and the tri color coat eliminated...or so it is thought. The genes may still be there in some lines and if, in a one in a million chance they happen to line up, you can get tri-color coats (or Gelber Brand). The same thing applies to long haired coats. While extremely rare, it is not impossible that a longhaired GSP could occur in a litter out of shorthaired parents ( see page 27 Der Deutsch Kurzhaar by Georgina Byrne).

Wurttemberger
Image
Ms. Byrne also notes the inclusion of a Weimaraner in the DK Studbook of that era. Whether the dog was part of a documented outcross or was a courtesy listing is unknown. Atavistic characteristics from the formative years of a breed or those associated with marginally related breeds are not desireable. Gelber brand, while it follows the "tan" pattern to a degree, is not rust or copper tricolor. A mutt is a mutt.
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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by chiendog » Sun May 22, 2011 10:59 am

Yes, Weimaraners were listed in the DK stubooks for a number of years. I detail that period in the Weim chapter of my book and also have a section on the history of the Wurttemberger.

One of the reasons that supporters of the Weim worked so hard to eventually set up their own studbook was to avoid the fate of the Wurttemberger. The knew that there was just as much opposition to the grey coat color as to the tricolored coat among the DK folks and realized that if they continued to use the DK registry, grey would eventually be eliminated. So they more or less made up a convincing back-story for the Weim, complete with a spurious connection to a long dead Grand Duke (I wrote about that here: http://pointingdogblog.blogspot.com/200 ... ghost.html) and went their own way.

My contacts in Slovakia and Czech told me about grey pups in the occasional GSP litter there even now. But they feel they are due to under-the-table cross breeding that occurred after WWII, not from anything that happened in earlier times. Unfortunately they euthanize the grey pups so as not to incriminate anyone..I told them they should keep the pups and send them me! :D

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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by Cajun Casey » Sun May 22, 2011 11:10 am

chiendog wrote:Yes, Weimaraners were listed in the DK stubooks for a number of years. I detail that period in the Weim chapter of my book and also have a section on the history of the Wurttemberger.

One of the reasons that supporters of the Weim worked so hard to eventually set up their own studbook was to avoid the fate of the Wurttemberger. The knew that there was just as much opposition to the grey coat color as to the tricolored coat among the DK folks and realized that if they continued to use the DK registry, grey would eventually be eliminated. So they more or less made up a convincing back-story for the Weim, complete with a spurious connection to a long dead Grand Duke (I wrote about that here: http://pointingdogblog.blogspot.com/200 ... ghost.html) and went their own way.

My contacts in Slovakia and Czech told me about grey pups in the occasional GSP litter there even now. But they feel they are due to under-the-table cross breeding that occurred after WWII, not from anything that happened in earlier times. Unfortunately they euthanize the grey pups so as not to incriminate anyone..I told them they should keep the pups and send them me! :D
The dog fancy only lost Ginny Alexander last week, but I'm sure that already has her rolling in her grave.
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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by chiendog » Sun May 22, 2011 11:48 am

The dog fancy only lost Ginny Alexander last week, but I'm sure that already has her rolling in her grave.
Sorry, you lost me. How/why does this concern G. Alexander?

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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by RoostersMom » Sun May 22, 2011 7:01 pm

A litter I'm looking at for my sister has a "tri-colored" pup in it. My sis wants a very dark pup and this one is the darkest of the bunch - so we're leaning towards him if he is fine for the temperment she wants. It will be out of the gene pool though, as she will neuter him. I just posted a query on here last week after looking at the pups about where this color comes from and how common it is. Apparently it is not a DQ overseas, but here it is a DQ. Seems not to be very common at all.

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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by Cajun Casey » Sun May 22, 2011 7:41 pm

The reason it's not common is because it's not right.

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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by Ridge-Point » Sun May 22, 2011 8:10 pm

I really don't see how fad colors have any effect on the breed as a whole.

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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by RoostersMom » Sun May 22, 2011 8:33 pm

From an article I was looking up when checking out the "Tri-color" thing.

It is interesting that the German Standard allows what amounts to tricolour with its allowed "sandy colour" on the muzzle and feet. Atta Sand, a littermate of the very important sire, Artus Sand, was tricoloured (Maxwell, 1965), but I have no idea of how her colours were distributed. I have asked several distinguished German fanciers about the "Gelber Brand", and there seems to be some disagreement as to what it really is. There is no doubt however, that it is very rare.
One would expect that a tricoloured GSP would have markings similar to those of, for example, a tricoloured spaniel. These consist of the basic liver or black colouring plus tan markings in such locations as eyebrows, cheeks, legs and underside of tail. Buchwald (1945), quoted by Burns (1952) designated the "bicolor" markings found (only rarely) in the "Short-haired Bird Dog" as being "a la Dachshund." In the same chapter (Burns, 1952), an investigation of the colouration of GSPs listed in the Danish Studbooks (Volumes 55 to 67), included the description of Hesthaven’s Rap 31845, as follows: "brown-speckled with brown spots. Tricoloured head. Hound markings." Rap was the sire of the famous stud, Bob (Koge) 35447. Also, a brother of Rap was described as: "Tricoloured. Hound markings on cheeks and ear." I have never seen a GSP with such colouration, but I have seen a liver and white German Wirehair with similar tan markings to those mentioned above.

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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by Cajun Casey » Sun May 22, 2011 8:38 pm

RoostersMom wrote:From an article I was looking up when checking out the "Tri-color" thing.

It is interesting that the German Standard allows what amounts to tricolour with its allowed "sandy colour" on the muzzle and feet. Atta Sand, a littermate of the very important sire, Artus Sand, was tricoloured (Maxwell, 1965), but I have no idea of how her colours were distributed. I have asked several distinguished German fanciers about the "Gelber Brand", and there seems to be some disagreement as to what it really is. There is no doubt however, that it is very rare.
One would expect that a tricoloured GSP would have markings similar to those of, for example, a tricoloured spaniel. These consist of the basic liver or black colouring plus tan markings in such locations as eyebrows, cheeks, legs and underside of tail. Buchwald (1945), quoted by Burns (1952) designated the "bicolor" markings found (only rarely) in the "Short-haired Bird Dog" as being "a la Dachshund." In the same chapter (Burns, 1952), an investigation of the colouration of GSPs listed in the Danish Studbooks (Volumes 55 to 67), included the description of Hesthaven’s Rap 31845, as follows: "brown-speckled with brown spots. Tricoloured head. Hound markings." Rap was the sire of the famous stud, Bob (Koge) 35447. Also, a brother of Rap was described as: "Tricoloured. Hound markings on cheeks and ear." I have never seen a GSP with such colouration, but I have seen a liver and white German Wirehair with similar tan markings to those mentioned above.
Do you have the citation on the article? I'd like to see the whole thing.
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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by Ahumphers91a » Sun May 22, 2011 8:40 pm

if I remember right, Kay V.D Wilberg was tri-colored.

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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by ACooper » Sun May 22, 2011 8:56 pm

Ahumphers91a wrote:if I remember right, Kay V.D Wilberg was tri-colored.
First time I have heard that about Kay. I know NFC Patricia V Frulord was.

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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by Cajun Casey » Sun May 22, 2011 8:56 pm

gpblitz wrote:http://www.deutsch-kurzhaar.de/e-St2000.pdf
DK Coat and Color
Coat
Texture of Coat
Short and dense, rough and hard to the touch. Somewhat thinner and shorter on the head
and flaps, not remarkably longer at the underside of the tail. Should cover the whole body.
Colour a) Solid brown, without markings.
b) Brown with small white or flecked markings at chest and legs.
c) Dark brown roan, with brown head, brown patches or specks. The basic colour of such a
dog is not brown mixed with white or white with brown, but the coat shows such an even
intensive mixture of brown and white which results in that kind of inconspicuous exterior of
the dog ever so valuable for the practical hunt. At the inner sides of the hindlegs as well as
at the tip of the tail the colour is often lighter.
d) Light brown roan with brown head, brown patches, specks or without patches. In this
colouring the brown hairs are fewer, the white hairs are predominant.
e) White with brown head markings, brown patches or specks;
f) Black colour in the same nuances as the brown, respectively the brown roan colours.
g) Yellow tan markings are permissible.h) Blaze, fleck and speckled flews are permissible.

There's your Gelber Brand, which would most closely be translated as "yellow flame," from what I can find. No red or rust is indicated in that standard, as you can see.
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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by AHGSP » Sun May 22, 2011 9:11 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
chiendog wrote:Yes, Weimaraners were listed in the DK stubooks for a number of years. I detail that period in the Weim chapter of my book and also have a section on the history of the Wurttemberger.

One of the reasons that supporters of the Weim worked so hard to eventually set up their own studbook was to avoid the fate of the Wurttemberger. The knew that there was just as much opposition to the grey coat color as to the tricolored coat among the DK folks and realized that if they continued to use the DK registry, grey would eventually be eliminated. So they more or less made up a convincing back-story for the Weim, complete with a spurious connection to a long dead Grand Duke (I wrote about that here: http://pointingdogblog.blogspot.com/200 ... ghost.html) and went their own way.

My contacts in Slovakia and Czech told me about grey pups in the occasional GSP litter there even now. But they feel they are due to under-the-table cross breeding that occurred after WWII, not from anything that happened in earlier times. Unfortunately they euthanize the grey pups so as not to incriminate anyone..I told them they should keep the pups and send them me! :D
The dog fancy only lost Ginny Alexander last week, but I'm sure that already has her rolling in her grave.
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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by RoostersMom » Sun May 22, 2011 9:14 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
RoostersMom wrote:From an article I was looking up when checking out the "Tri-color" thing.

It is interesting that the German Standard allows what amounts to tricolour with its allowed "sandy colour" on the muzzle and feet. Atta Sand, a littermate of the very important sire, Artus Sand, was tricoloured (Maxwell, 1965), but I have no idea of how her colours were distributed. I have asked several distinguished German fanciers about the "Gelber Brand", and there seems to be some disagreement as to what it really is. There is no doubt however, that it is very rare.


Do you have the citation on the article? I'd like to see the whole thing.


Here you go - it's the comparison of the breed standards, US (AKC I guess), German, and other Britain. http://www.deutsch-kurzhaar.ro/deutsch- ... -standards

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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by Cajun Casey » Sun May 22, 2011 9:16 pm

AHGSP wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:
chiendog wrote:Yes, Weimaraners were listed in the DK stubooks for a number of years. I detail that period in the Weim chapter of my book and also have a section on the history of the Wurttemberger.

One of the reasons that supporters of the Weim worked so hard to eventually set up their own studbook was to avoid the fate of the Wurttemberger. The knew that there was just as much opposition to the grey coat color as to the tricolored coat among the DK folks and realized that if they continued to use the DK registry, grey would eventually be eliminated. So they more or less made up a convincing back-story for the Weim, complete with a spurious connection to a long dead Grand Duke (I wrote about that here: http://pointingdogblog.blogspot.com/200 ... ghost.html) and went their own way.

My contacts in Slovakia and Czech told me about grey pups in the occasional GSP litter there even now. But they feel they are due to under-the-table cross breeding that occurred after WWII, not from anything that happened in earlier times. Unfortunately they euthanize the grey pups so as not to incriminate anyone..I told them they should keep the pups and send them me! :D
The dog fancy only lost Ginny Alexander last week, but I'm sure that already has her rolling in her grave.
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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by wems2371 » Sun May 22, 2011 9:39 pm

I have The Complete German Shorthaired Pointer by Herr Seiger & Dr. Colpin 1951--and it mentions a "black & mildew" & "brown & mildew" colored shorthair that did not attain popularity within the breed. There is no good explanation of how these colors are expressed in coat pattern in the book (or I missed it). So I've been curious, are these two variations of a tri-color pattern or something else?

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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by Cajun Casey » Sun May 22, 2011 9:48 pm

RoostersMom wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:
RoostersMom wrote:From an article I was looking up when checking out the "Tri-color" thing.

It is interesting that the German Standard allows what amounts to tricolour with its allowed "sandy colour" on the muzzle and feet. Atta Sand, a littermate of the very important sire, Artus Sand, was tricoloured (Maxwell, 1965), but I have no idea of how her colours were distributed. I have asked several distinguished German fanciers about the "Gelber Brand", and there seems to be some disagreement as to what it really is. There is no doubt however, that it is very rare.


Do you have the citation on the article? I'd like to see the whole thing.


Here you go - it's the comparison of the breed standards, US (AKC I guess), German, and other Britain. http://www.deutsch-kurzhaar.ro/deutsch- ... -standards
Nevermind. That's Byrne. Got that one.


Thanks. Almost missed that. I'm listening to the Joplin emergency scanner on another window. Rescue is going to be stinkin' busy.
Last edited by Cajun Casey on Sun May 22, 2011 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by snips » Sun May 22, 2011 9:50 pm

mildew?
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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by Cajun Casey » Sun May 22, 2011 9:54 pm

snips wrote:mildew?
Also called "mildred" and just another made up term for yellow.
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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by chiendog » Mon May 23, 2011 8:12 am

Re: Mildew

The German word "schimmel" means mold or mildew. But when it is combined with a word for a color such as "braun" (brown) or "schwartz" (black) and used to describe the coat color/pattern of a dog or horse etc. a better translation would be "roan".

Braunschimmel = brown roan
Schwartzschimmel = black roan

We take poetic license in English as well. I bet terms like "chocolate Lab" and "lemon Pointer" confuse the heck out of some Germans :lol:

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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by wems2371 » Mon May 23, 2011 8:30 am

gpblitz wrote:Some blow me away . post a official DK website and some still want to go by what some writer or breeder enterpretation.
Not sure what that means Howie. I asked about passages in my book, as it has been a curiosity for me, since I purchased the book several years ago. I don't endorce breeding non-standard animals, but I am open to understanding what colors are possible historically.

Chiendog--That makes sense, using the term for "roan", especially regarding the admissable colors below and the context of the passage. Thanks for clearing that up for me! :wink:

The black & mildew and brown & mildew passage is on pages 165-168 of the book I mentioned. It mentiones Chr. Bode & Dr. Wachter as fanciers of this color and an incross to pointers. There were opponents, that Dr. Kleemann smoothened, so that a subdivision in the Studbook conceded for the registration of black & mildew. Dr. Kleeman wished to their breeder Bode, that he might be successful in breeding another "Mars Altenau", this time in black and mildew. Mentions that the Black & M dogs never found success. "Meanwhile, a very sincere mixture between black & mildew colored and brown and mildew colored shorthair has taken place and the latter proves to be far more dominant." Then it mentions an incross of Black & M into the german wirehair.

As of the 1951 publishing: "Purebred Black & M colored strains have scarcely been maintained up to date. Black & M colored dogs and Brown & M colored are rather being mated to each other. Brown & M colored dogs out of such litters are registered as German Shorthair, while Black & M colored dogs of the same litter are recorded in their Studbook section. Formerly, Brown & M colored dogs from such like matings had to be entered as so called "Prussian Shorthair", which is the original name of black Shorthair."

Terms For The Registration In The Stud-Book "SHORTHAIR" (appears to be it's from 1925)

7. Admissable colours for short-haired German pointers are:
a) brown without markings
b) brown with white markings or with speckled markings
c) dark brown-and-mildew colored ----\
d) light brown-and-mildew colored ------with brown markings
e) white ----------------------------------/

*designations like "Brown-tiger", "utility-dog colored", "dry-leaf colored" cannot be accepted!

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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by gittrdonebritts » Mon May 23, 2011 8:33 am

chiendog wrote:I have no idea where the tri-color coats in some lines of modern GSPs are coming from or if, as mentioned, they qualify as just "Gelber brand" markings. But the issue of tri-color coats in GSPs has been around since the very beginning. In fact in the late 1800s/early 1900s a breed known as the Tri-colored Wurttemberger (dreifarbigen Württemberger or dreifarbige Württembergische Vorstehhund) was registered in GSP (Deutsch Kurzhaar) studbooks. The Wurttemberger eventually disappeared, probably by being absorbed into the main population of GSPs and the tri color coat eliminated...or so it is thought. The genes may still be there in some lines and if, in a one in a million chance they happen to line up, you can get tri-color coats (or Gelber Brand). The same thing applies to long haired coats. While extremely rare, it is not impossible that a longhaired GSP could occur in a litter out of shorthaired parents ( see page 27 Der Deutsch Kurzhaar by Georgina Byrne).

Wurttemberger
Image

hey a blue tick ! :wink:

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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by Cajun Casey » Mon May 23, 2011 10:58 am

The original name of the black kutzhaar was "pointer cross." I don't see how the egos of over a century ago affect current standards. In four generations you can alter a bloodline significantly. In eight, you can affect irrevocable changes. In forty, you have a new animal.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/ ... 2010-09-02

There is no long lost genetic excuse for bright rust tan pattern tri-color markings on a modern German shorthaired pointer.
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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by Cajun Casey » Mon May 23, 2011 11:54 am

gpblitz wrote:pointer cross." Prussian Kurzhaar", I've heard the black dogs refered to both ways. More so Prussian Kurzhaar. Personally Im not sure what was first.
It was a cross with solid black Arkwright pointers. That's how breeders got the solid black in the breed during the formative years. Concern was for the fading of color, both coat and eye. Which opens up a whole new line of questioning - why are light eyed dogs getting to be more common in the breed?
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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by adogslife » Mon May 23, 2011 12:16 pm

Interesting discussion. How much of the info being shared is strictly from reading books? Any knowledge to be shared from research with people in the DK world?

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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by adogslife » Mon May 23, 2011 12:27 pm

Eye color is connected to coat color?

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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by markj » Mon May 23, 2011 12:29 pm

http://www.redearthoutfitters.com/Artsh ... anchor_249 has some fine drawings of the old dogs.

I have 2 copies of the HF Sieger books (worked for the school library then and they were going to trash tehm). I first read this book in the 60s, I recommend it as a good read. Has the origins, development, transistion to AKC events and a complete how to care for the dog section outlines everything from food to fleas, also many pics of the old dogs some KS some in later chapters DC in AKC. Explains the coat, color and why it was important.

Some of the FT ch in the 40s and 50s are in there, look at the tail set :) isnt 12:00 that came much later as the almost all white many want.

Has a passage describing the introduction of pointer later and how it effected the dogs, I will leave it up to you all to read that passage :)

tri color like a dobie? maybe from weim introduction I dont know, but Iwouldnt breed one in an attempt for a special color dog sells for thousands O dollars :) but I bet some will. Take a walk down shelter lane as I did over theweekend, mixed toy messedd up dogs in someones attempt to make a new cute breed everyone wants to own.... sad but the shelter re homes dont kill em so I give em stuff.

Get dog chipped there and registered with national registry for low price of 25.00 shots are less costly tere too and it supports the shelter. Might want to look into this in your area.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1103
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=5210
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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by Cajun Casey » Mon May 23, 2011 12:38 pm

adogslife wrote:Eye color is connected to coat color?
Yes.
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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by Cajun Casey » Mon May 23, 2011 12:41 pm

markj wrote:tri color like a dobie? maybe from weim introduction I dont know, but Iwouldnt breed one in an attempt for a special color dog sells for thousands O dollars :) but I bet some will. Take a walk down shelter lane as I did over theweekend, mixed toy messedd up dogs in someones attempt to make a new cute breed everyone wants to own.... sad but the shelter re homes dont kill em so I give em stuff.

Get dog chipped there and registered with national registry for low price of 25.00 shots are less costly tere too and it supports the shelter. Might want to look into this in your area.

Like a chocolate Dobie, maybe? Hmmmmmmmm..........why is it the horse people always figure things out?
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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by markj » Mon May 23, 2011 12:47 pm

why is it the horse people always figure things out
I'm a dog man, no ponies on my place :) just born and raisedd with em... from morgans to thoroughbred to percherons.

I also had dobies in the 70s, friends two ate a burgler in a small town female was put down I got the male as he wasnt too bad. Also had pit bulls, springers, a cow dog breed unknown his mammy was a walkabout :)

Now GSps only and steers. maybe some chickens soon...
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=1103
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=5210
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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by ezzy333 » Mon May 23, 2011 1:56 pm

gpblitz wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:adogslife wrote:
Eye color is connected to coat color?

Yes.
Why did I see a GSP with a super dark brown coat last week end at a hunt test with gold yellow eyes? My dark liver dogs of years past were dark brown eyed.
You can find light eyes on any color of a dog. Because of the way they look we have always frowned upon them but they are quite common in all wild dogs and wolves. We often hear the term mean associated with them and agin that is our perception and not really based on fact. There is a line of thought that the light eyes do accompany intelligence and there appears to bve some evidence that is true. But in the end praqctically every breed standard asks for dark eyes and that is based on the cosmetic appeal to us and not on any evidence that they detract physically from the dog.

Light eyes connected to coat color, I would like to see the evidence before I would believe it as over the years I have never heard or seen any connection.

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http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by ymepointer » Mon May 23, 2011 2:05 pm

Maybe a little Blackhawk in the background.

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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by Cajun Casey » Mon May 23, 2011 2:32 pm

No one said anything about light eyes. Eye color alleles are usually in proximity to those for coat color and pattern, along with some of the developmental genes for hearing.
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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by ezzy333 » Mon May 23, 2011 2:36 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:No one said anything about light eyes. Eye color alleles are usually in proximity to those for coat color and pattern, along with some of the developmental genes for hearing.
I believe you made the connection just a few posts ago.

Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by Cajun Casey » Mon May 23, 2011 2:43 pm

gpblitz wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:Because of the way they look we have always frowned upon them but they are quite common in all wild dogs and wolves.
I have never seen a Timber Wolve with anything but yellow eyes. So could it be that yellow is frowned upon because they have a wild fierce look at times. i've heard this said of the eyes of Chessies. I love the Chess dearly. The photo of the tri has some very light eyes.
Are you talking about the photo I posted?
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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by Cajun Casey » Mon May 23, 2011 2:46 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:No one said anything about light eyes. Eye color alleles are usually in proximity to those for coat color and pattern, along with some of the developmental genes for hearing.
I believe you made the connection just a few posts ago.

Ezzy
No, I did not. I replied, "Yes," to the question of if eye color and coat color are related.
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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by ezzy333 » Mon May 23, 2011 5:07 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:No one said anything about light eyes. Eye color alleles are usually in proximity to those for coat color and pattern, along with some of the developmental genes for hearing.
I believe you made the connection just a few posts ago.

Ezzy
No, I did not. I replied, "Yes," to the question of if eye color and coat color are related.
Well, what are we talking about then? Seems like that was the topic and though you said yes we pointed out that it probably is not.

Ezzy
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http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by Cajun Casey » Mon May 23, 2011 5:21 pm

Ezzy, as usual, you are simply picking a fight by implying I said something I did not and the evidence is very clear to what question I was responding.

Since it is against my principles to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent, I hereby withdraw from this facet of the discussion.
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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by ACooper » Mon May 23, 2011 5:49 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:Ezzy, as usual, you are simply picking a fight by implying I said something I did not and the evidence is very clear to what question I was responding.

Since it is against my principles to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent, I hereby withdraw from this facet of the discussion.

So then you're saying there isn't a connection between coat and eye color?

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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by GUNDOGS » Mon May 23, 2011 6:01 pm

i believe light eyes in shorthairs is a deduction in the show ring isnt it?..is it just in certain breeds or all?...ruth
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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by RoostersMom » Mon May 23, 2011 6:05 pm

In reading about the "tri-color" I read somewhere that the introduction of the Arkwright pointer was made to darken the eyes of the GSP. It will be interesting to see if this tri-color pup has dark or lighter eyes than the littermates. I might look into the pedigree and see if I can sniff out the dog bringing in the color, I know it's not the parents or grandparents as I've seen them.

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Re: Tri color gsp "fad"...

Post by Cajun Casey » Mon May 23, 2011 6:08 pm

ACooper wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:Ezzy, as usual, you are simply picking a fight by implying I said something I did not and the evidence is very clear to what question I was responding.

Since it is against my principles to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent, I hereby withdraw from this facet of the discussion.

So then you're saying there isn't a connection between coat and eye color?
Eye and coat color are often inherited together. It does not have anything to do with dark coat = dark eyes. If you have a light eyed dog, its offspring that have its coat hue will usually have its eye color. My darkest eyes are in my clear whites.
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