Style Question... For Everyone

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Fri May 27, 2011 2:19 pm

brad27 wrote:i hope they don't mind, but i always thought Crystal Kennels avatar was a beautiful blend of style and intensity.

WOW

NICE

....ruth

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Fri May 27, 2011 7:10 pm

HTA 9xNC - I'm sure everyone has seen this picture

A son of HTA- sire to my dog.

Granddaughter to HTA- picture i posted before.

close up, she's gets the muscles in her face so clenched up it makes her head misshapen.

I totally agree tho that you gotta see the dog moving and how they move/run and come upon their birds to really judge style. I love a dog with a fancy gait that changes to different trots canters...almost like a lil gaited horse.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Fri May 27, 2011 9:01 pm

Coveyrise64 wrote:For me, it doesn't really matter what their style is as long as they have a little 'attitude'.

Coveyrise64

THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT!!!!!!

Charlie

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Fri May 27, 2011 9:02 pm

GUNDOGS wrote:
brad27 wrote:i hope they don't mind, but i always thought Crystal Kennels avatar was a beautiful blend of style and intensity.

WOW NICE ....ruth

Me too!

Charlie

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Fri May 27, 2011 9:07 pm

by birddog1968 » Thu May 26, 2011 1:06 am

No one is trying to change your mind your opinion or your preference , only have a discussion about it.

Yes they are

But it is not working

Charlie

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Fri May 27, 2011 10:37 pm

Another thing that I think is not stylish is when they have a foot lifted...I just don't like it

I like the foot lifted if that is the position it was in when it pointed, but another thing I think takes away from style is when they have here mouth open.

Charlie

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Fri May 27, 2011 10:51 pm

Sorry folks but I just have to say it again. For everybody that likes the high head crank, it sure doesn't seem like they have the dogs with it. This has been a long thread with a lot of nice pictures but I think I have only seen two dogs with the head crank that I am talking about and they looked stylish and intense. I just like the other ones better and I can't help that. But, are all these other pictures supposed to be showing a head crank? Because if they are, I have been confused as to what you are talking about. If this is what most of you are calling a head crank, then I am in agreement. My definition of the head crank is just different than what I have seen here.

Charlie

Post by **slistoe** » Fri May 27, 2011 11:25 pm

You are right, there are very few dogs in this thread that are "crankin". But then there are very few dogs in the population of dogs that exhibit that type of style. I have no problem myself with you not liking the "head crank", but you reason is just plain goofy. Crankin is an extension of intensity in display. I have yet to see a crankin dog that wasn't suckin it for all it could.
There are lots of stylish dogs in this thread, there are some very intense dogs with not so much style, and some that are not showing style nor intensity. But as someone else said in the thread, a dog on birds does not look bad and I am sure that all the owners love their dogs. Style may be in the eye of the beholder, but at some point one must move outside of themselves and consider what is the range of consensus of general opinion on the matter and wherein the boundaries of acceptable style lie.

FC Vindalbakken's Lady Lightning - I loved this dog and was very, very proud of her and all we accomplished, but style was not in her repertoire.
http://www.pageweb.com/vinken/images/lightning.jpg

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat May 28, 2011 2:17 am

You are right, there are very few dogs in this thread that are "crankin". But then there are very few dogs in the population of dogs that exhibit that type

Thanks for proving my point. There are few that do it with style and intensity, but so many more that I have seen that have just been taught, trained or whatever to stand that way and a lot of times you don't know if they have a bird or are just standing there. When one does I will oooh and ahh like everybody else. People are training there dogs to stand that way when they whoa them and that is fine too if that is what they want. I just wonder why dogs of the past never cranked their heads because of intensity because I know it was there. When I see style, and or intensity I know it the same as everybody else and I will give the dog credit for that, regardless of how they are standing. As an earlier poster said, I love it when I see a dog running at full speed and slam a point with it's body turned at 90 degrees and you won't see a crank'n dog do that. Now somebody will probably post a picture of one that did

When this thread started, the simple question was asked about which one of two dogs you preferred. They both had awesome intensity and style, but I chose the first one as did several others and then I was accused of saying the second one had no intensity :roll: Now, I will admit some of my comments
may have led some to think that, but I didn't mean that at all. I knew full well and so did Ron

what this thread was going to turn into when it started but I was willing to play along. I was just wondering how long it would take for the word idiot or goofy or something like that to come along.

As for everybody loving there own dogs, that is true, but my comments have nothing to do with my own dogs. I have a real good 3yr.old that doesn't quite have the style I would like,but he still gives me pleasure. Sorry for being so long but you know how passionate we dog people can be.

Charlie

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Sat May 28, 2011 4:42 am

In my opinion, i dont think you or anyone else has to explain themselves BIRDDOGGER as to what they like or dont like as far as style goes..its all a very personal thing, such as our choice in breeds..i think the only time it would become an issue is a judge using his/her OWN personal preference to judge a dog..for example in a show ring or in a test or passing or chosing a dog as a winner based on a personal preference which i know for a fact influences some judges and THAT i dont agree with...BUT if its just a simple preference nobody can fault or debate another person for that, it just makes no sense to do so..PERSONALLY i dont care for the head up looking in the sky, IN MY OPINION it does show style and certainly my definition of class but it just doesnt make me go WOW

.. now when i see a dog that looks like it slammed on the scent and is bent like a horseshoe and you can tell he/she caught that scent, stopped on a dime and is all business or a dog that has his head low and a foot up and looks like a canine arrow saying "THE BIRDS RIGHT THERE" thats what "does it for me"

..i myself have preferences as does everyone else and trying to talk me out of my preference of style or intensity on a point would get someone as far as talking me out of a GSP being my breed of choice

...this is a great thread cause i like to see pictures and let the picture tell a story about the dog and its great to read other peoples thoughts of preference but it really shouldnt be a debate or someone having to defend their opinion that just makes no sense to me sorry

...ruth

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat May 28, 2011 5:12 am

Ruth, this is probably one of the best posts of the thread and not because you seem to like the same thing I do, as I am sure some people will think, but because of the way you explained it. This is a great thread [thanks Ron] and all is good. I love bird dogs of all different breeds and styles, but I do have preferences as all of us do. But it seems the more you try to explain, the more you are misunderstood. Like I said though, it's all good and I love this forum.

Charlie

PkerStr8Tail · Post by **PkerStr8Tail** » Sat May 28, 2011 5:50 am

Here is one without any HTA in the bloodlines.

PkerStr8Tail · Post by **PkerStr8Tail** » Sat May 28, 2011 6:01 am

GUNDOGS wrote:a dog that has his head low and a foot up and looks like a canine arrow saying "THE BIRDS RIGHT THERE" thats what "does it for me" .. ...ruth

My preference is the opposite. I do care about how the tail looks, but most important to me is the front end. The dog doesn't have to have the head cranked up to the sky, but they must stand up tall in the front end. A dog that is crouched or low in the front end regardless of whether their head is cranked up or not doesn't do it for me. A dog that always points low on the front end says to me that it can't smell the bird unless it gets it's nose near the ground. A dog that runs with their nose on the ground and then points that way is more of a tracking position which is for dead birds finds and not looking for live ones. Again, just another opinion.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat May 28, 2011 6:22 am

PkerStr8Tail wrote:
GUNDOGS wrote:a dog that has his head low and a foot up and looks like a canine arrow saying "THE BIRDS RIGHT THERE" thats what "does it for me" .. ...ruth
My preference is the opposite. I do care about how the tail looks, but most important to me is the front end. The dog doesn't have to have the head cranked up to the sky, but they must stand up tall in the front end. A dog that is crouched or low in the from end regardless of whether their head is cranked up or not doesn't do it for me. A dog that always points low on the front end says to me that it can't smell the bird unless it gets it's nose near the ground. A dog that runs with their nose on the ground and then points that way is more of a tracking position which is for dead birds finds and not looking for live ones. Again, just another opinion.

And a respected opinion!! I understand exactly what you are saying. But if a dog happens to hit the scent and point in a little different position than I would prefer, that is OK by me. As far as the front end, I prefer it high too but the head can still be pointing toward the bird without being low. The dogs that my hunting partner and I hunt over may point in a different position, depending on how they hit the scent, but they are always intense and that is the main thing I am looking for. I hope this makes sense, but probably not.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Sat May 28, 2011 6:35 am

The classic Short hair point does it for me. I love the dog that is on the edge, having to hold back every ounce of its drive and instincts to charge in and take its prey. The eyes focused, lower front, head and neck stretching forward, leaning into the point, tail at 10 or 11: Body all tensed up, all give a definate and confident, (Right there boss, right there, if you don't get it I will") Dogs words

attitude.

I find the dog with the crank, looks like it knows there is a bird there, and is saticfied with finding the bird. Although, the high head and tail look regal, and it is pretty, it just does not have the raw purity and animal magnitism I like. Kind of like comparing, Queen Elizabeth and Beyonce. I like Beyonce.

At least that is how I see it.

Now, I would say I have seen pointers with that low, leaning stance with head cranking up and It is impressive to me. In all honesty I have my favorite type of manner of point, but many types take my breath away, dependent on circumstance, I even giggle a little sometimes. (Pent up emotion I guess). Had a guy get mad at me once, thought I was laughing at his dog when in reality, I just loved how the dog near up ended its self to slam a point. He understood.

myerstenn · Post by **myerstenn** » Sat May 28, 2011 8:28 am

If everone thinks its so easy to teach head crank explain to me why you dont see more of it??? In my opinion this is pure genetics, Fiddlin Rocky boy had it and it was inherited by HTA and so forth. Just a note on three legg points,If you are a trialer you might not consider it so pretty for this fact, a dog that does this will most likley take additional steps therefore costing you possible placements. If i owned a trial dog that did it i would fix it !!!

snips · Post by **snips** » Sat May 28, 2011 8:40 am

Head crank is very pretty....But I was holding the backing dog in a Nat'l NSTRA trial while the other handler was trying to find the bird in front of the pointer that was known for scoring extremely hi and was stanting with his nose in the air....Handler went semi circle from one side to the other in a half moon from a mile away to in front of his nose....No clue where the bird was.....Very frustrating for the backing dog waiting for them to produce a bird

:roll:

myerstenn · Post by **myerstenn** » Sat May 28, 2011 8:43 am

Brenda, that situation could happen with any dog IMO.

snips · Post by **snips** » Sat May 28, 2011 9:13 am

It could, but lots of times you can look at a dogs eyes and have a good idea where to look, if he is not looking at the stars....Not really knocking it, Fritz does it...Just sayin'....

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat May 28, 2011 9:31 am

myerstenn wrote:If everone thinks its so easy to teach head crank explain to me why you dont see more of it??? In my opinion this is pure genetics, Fiddlin Rocky boy had it and it was inherited by HTA and so forth. Just a note on three legg points,If you are a trialer you might not consider it so pretty for this fact, a dog that does this will most likley take additional steps therefore costing you possible placements. If i owned a trial dog that did it i would fix it !!!

I don't know how easy it is because I have never done it, but it is done and that is a fact. Dogs are trained all the time to stand with their head high in the air and tail at 12:00 anytime they stand still, whether they are on point or just standing there. There is nothing wrong with it if that is what you want. There are other dogs that inherit it.

Charlie

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat May 28, 2011 9:36 am

Just another quick comment, I am not saying that any and every dog can be conditioned to do it, but a lot of them can be and are.

Charlie

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Sat May 28, 2011 9:55 am

what im wondering is for those who hunt over dogs that hold the head up high on point (looking at the stars) is relocating on a bird ever an issue or does it have nothing to do with the head postition? thanks...ruth

Post by **slistoe** » Sat May 28, 2011 11:11 am

GUNDOGS wrote: does it have nothing to do with the head postition? thanks...ruth

That would be it.

Post by **slistoe** » Sat May 28, 2011 11:14 am

birddogger wrote:Just another quick comment, I am not saying that any and every dog can be conditioned to do it, but a lot of them can be and are.

Charlie

If a dog is trained to stand when it encounters scent they are not pointing and will not look like they are pointing - no intensity and without intensity there is ZERO style.
You can have intensity without style, but you CANNOT have style without intensity.
Standing is not pointing.

So, to recap, if a dog has no intensity it cannot be referred to as stylish.

snips · Post by **snips** » Sat May 28, 2011 11:38 am

Andy Coopers dog, Dez is about the most intense dog on a bird you will find..To see his eyes is even better!

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Sat May 28, 2011 11:48 am

Coop's got a good one there for sure, Brenda.

PkerStr8Tail · Post by **PkerStr8Tail** » Sat May 28, 2011 6:09 pm

birddogger wrote:
myerstenn wrote:If everone thinks its so easy to teach head crank explain to me why you dont see more of it??? In my opinion this is pure genetics, Fiddlin Rocky boy had it and it was inherited by HTA and so forth. Just a note on three legg points,If you are a trialer you might not consider it so pretty for this fact, a dog that does this will most likley take additional steps therefore costing you possible placements. If i owned a trial dog that did it i would fix it !!!
I don't know how easy it is because I have never done it, but it is done and that is a fact. Dogs are trained all the time to stand with their head high in the air and tail at 12:00 anytime they stand still, whether they are on point or just standing there. There is nothing wrong with it if that is what you want. There are other dogs that inherit it.

Charlie

I can't say you are wrong because I suppose anything is possible, but I have never seen a dog that I knew of that was trained to point in a high position rather than it's naturally low position. To me pointing position and stance is purely genetics. Can you name any dogs that you knew of that naturally pointed low, but through training became high head and tailed on point? Another thing to keep in mind is many young dogs may point low as a young dog because they are in more a chase mode when they first start pointing and may still be creeping on point, but as they get older and steadier they may start standing higher. This is not trained but is just a steadier dog that goes through the natural maturity.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Sat May 28, 2011 6:13 pm

It was nice to see a couple of dogs that are actually on wild birds in all these photos. I was beginning to think that you can only expect style from dogs that stand in short grass.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat May 28, 2011 6:39 pm

slistoe wrote:
birddogger wrote:Just another quick comment, I am not saying that any and every dog can be conditioned to do it, but a lot of them can be and are.

Charlie
If a dog is trained to stand when it encounters scent they are not pointing and will not look like they are pointing - no intensity and without intensity there is ZERO style.
You can have intensity without style, but you CANNOT have style without intensity.
Standing is not pointing.

So, to recap, if a dog has no intensity it cannot be referred to as stylish.

I totally agree.

Charlie

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Sat May 28, 2011 6:58 pm

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat May 28, 2011 7:06 pm

I can't say you are wrong because I suppose anything is possible, but I have never seen a dog that I knew of that was trained to point in a high position rather than it's naturally low position. To me pointing position and stance is purely genetics. Can you name any dogs that you knew of that naturally pointed low, but through training became high head and tailed on point? Another thing to keep in mind is many young dogs may point low as a young dog because they are in more a chase mode when they first start pointing and may still be creeping on point, but as they get older and steadier they may start standing higher. This is not trained but is just a steadier dog that goes through the natural maturity.

That is what I am saying, it doesn't look like a natural point to me and I have seen it, but I am not saying these dogs were naturally low on point. They are already high in the front but can be conditioned to get higher and higher. The comment on the puppies is correct, I think we all know that. This is a good thread but a silly debate. I am tired of trying to explain why I prefer the dogs in these pictures over the ones that crank their heads up to the sky and their is no reason I should explain it, I knew better

It is simply a personal preference and nothing more. For those of you who like the cranked head better, I respect that and more power to you. I like them all, but just have preferences. With that, I am going to end my part in this discussion because there is just nothing more I can say without being redundant.

BTW, your dog looks awesome in that picture!!!!

Charlie

asc · Post by **asc** » Sat May 28, 2011 7:48 pm

I like them all but that 1st pic Ron posted does it for me. That dog looks like he is fixing to explode out of his skin.

Fester · Post by **Fester** » Sun May 29, 2011 9:53 am

I like this style

briar.jpg

whoa on 'em · Post by **whoa on 'em** » Sun May 29, 2011 10:58 am

ben33127 wrote:I do not trial, therefore my stance on style is any way my dog points! I understand some people must have 12oclock tail, but I simply love a solid intense point no matter where the dogs tail is!! That imo, and understand everyone does not agree!

Can't agree more. I once found my dog sitting on a snow covered hill looking at a pile of brush, couldn't figure out what was wrong. When she didn't move and I got around to see the intensity in her eyes I realized she nailed the birds while in high gear going down hill. Upon closer examination you could even see the skid marks in the snow above her. Needless to say I was not disapointed with her style on that point. I guess it all boils down to the situation, I wouldn't have apprecited her pointing from her butt on a flat, dry field.

DGFavor · Post by **DGFavor** » Sun May 29, 2011 2:48 pm

When she didn't move and I got around to see the intensity in her eyes I realized she nailed the birds while in high gear going down hill. Upon closer examination you could even see the skid marks in the snow above her. Needless to say I was not disapointed with her style on that point.

Absolutely - such a ridiculous topic IMO to come up with one ideal pose in the discussion of a performance game where the playing field is live, dynamic and ever changing...at least it should be. I suppose if all we had to test on was static birds in a cage in a bush and the dogs all approached them at the same rate from the same angle maybe we could make some sense out of it....otherwise its all gibberish IMO!!

I tracked my Stitch dog down once across a huge flat that really had pretty dang sparse CRP cover on it. Should have been able to see him anywhere out there. Anyway, tracked and tracked couldn't see him, Tracker then telling me he's behind me...I look behind me...not there...track back the way I came about 50 yards and dang near step on him laying flat out all fours on the ground! Like you, his eyes tell me something's up, I step off the horse and a covey of I'd bet 20 huns comes up no more than 2-3ft in front of him - about gave me one them heart attack things. You could see the skid marks in the ground where he'd actually skidded a 180 in the dirt and just didn't move - musta had the wind wrong/not smelled 'em/have a crappy nose/whatever and been in amongst 'em before he knew he was in amongst 'em!! I'd have thought it was cool as heck if I'd been judging it in a trial - it was what it was...if he'd have stood up to strike a pose like the good bird dogs do there'd have been nothin' for me to talk about!!

Big Dave · Post by **Big Dave** » Sun May 29, 2011 3:13 pm

Style is a lot easier for me to identify in person than from a picture, the situation, intensity etc. certainly play into it.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun May 29, 2011 3:24 pm

DGFavor wrote:
When she didn't move and I got around to see the intensity in her eyes I realized she nailed the birds while in high gear going down hill. Upon closer examination you could even see the skid marks in the snow above her. Needless to say I was not disapointed with her style on that point.
Absolutely - such a ridiculous topic IMO to come up with one ideal pose in the discussion of a performance game where the playing field is live, dynamic and ever changing...at least it should be. I suppose if all we had to test on was static birds in a cage in a bush and the dogs all approached them at the same rate from the same angle maybe we could make some sense out of it....otherwise its all gibberish IMO!!

I tracked my Stitch dog down once across a huge flat that really had pretty dang sparse CRP cover on it. Should have been able to see him anywhere out there. Anyway, tracked and tracked couldn't see him, Tracker then telling me he's behind me...I look behind me...not there...track back the way I came about 50 yards and dang near step on him laying flat out all fours on the ground! Like you, his eyes tell me something's up, I step off the horse and a covey of I'd bet 20 huns comes up no more than 2-3ft in front of him - about gave me one them heart attack things. You could see the skid marks in the ground where he'd actually skidded a 180 in the dirt and just didn't move - musta had the wind wrong/not smelled 'em/have a crappy nose/whatever and been in amongst 'em before he knew he was in amongst 'em!! I'd have thought it was cool as heck if I'd been judging it in a trial - it was what it was...if he'd have stood up to strike a pose like the good bird dogs do there'd have been nothin' for me to talk about!!

This just might be the best post on here about style. You can have all of the perfect poses you want but the ones you will never forget or the ones where the dog had to freeze in mid stride and ended up in whatever contorted pose it ended up in and held it so as not to flush the birds. Those are the points that will be long remembered and just ooze style when you find the dog in those positions. Style can't be trained and can't be planned. They have to happen on the fly and have to be the most intense points you will ever see. All of the rest are just for empty chatter and taking pictures.

Thank you Whoa on em and Doug for coming up with perfect examples of style or at least what we all should be breeding for rather than a dog that photographs nicely.

Ezzy

Wa Chukar Hunter · Post by **Wa Chukar Hunter** » Sun May 29, 2011 4:47 pm

I kinda liked this dogs style before I crossed over to the Dark Side of the Force

This is the kind of style I like since crossing to the Dark Side of the Force - and running llewellins.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Sun May 29, 2011 5:14 pm

DGFavor wrote:
Absolutely - such a ridiculous topic IMO to come up with one ideal pose in the discussion of a performance game where the playing field is live, dynamic and ever changing...at least it should be.

Funny, the debate was not for any one ideal pose but weather those few dogs who hold their heads extra high do so because of intensity, one person said nay they don't have intensity and others stated they do indeed have intensity and end up in that pose because of it.

A little pre comment research will show that......anyone that would argue one pose is "Ideal" would in fact be ridiculous.

cjuve · Post by **cjuve** » Sun May 29, 2011 11:50 pm

Pretty is as pretty does..... Give me a dog that can keep up with a horse for four hours and then tell me how he looks on point. We should be looking for the best phyisical specimen there is and then add what looks pretty. JMO but I don't care what they look like on point till they are an hour into it.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon May 30, 2011 10:19 am

Ron R wrote:A dog's style is in the eye of the beholder...so what I'm asking for is some picks of what you all consider style.

I will start with two variations, one low and one high.

Here is the original post. Seems to me to be asking which is more stylish and does not mention intensity of a high head. And the answer was, is, and always will be which ever one you like the best. Just personal opinion.

Ezzy

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Mon May 30, 2011 2:01 pm

Sorry Ezzy:
The post is asking what you as an individual find stylish, not asking which is better. Of the two posted by Ron: I like both, hows that for straddling the fence? But the head crank an forward lean is a far better representation of what looks good with a high head. (Regal and intense) And the lower one is fierce so to speak the lower one is my Number one. Both great points. Intensity.

Carolina Gundogs · Post by **Carolina Gundogs** » Mon May 30, 2011 3:19 pm

I took this picture of my 7 month old pup, Snip's Queen Bee just this morning.

Bee 053011.JPG

Thanks for looking
Timmy Suggs

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Mon May 30, 2011 5:31 pm

Carolina Gundogs wrote:I took this picture of my 7 month old pup, Snip's Queen Bee just this morning.

Bee 053011.JPG

Thanks for looking
Timmy Suggs

I LIKE

love the avatar pic too....ruth

larry · Post by **larry** » Mon May 30, 2011 6:36 pm

snips wrote:It could, but lots of times you can look at a dogs eyes and have a good idea where to look, if he is not looking at the stars....Not really knocking it, Fritz does it...Just sayin'....

I agree, I like it when I can look at the dogs head and eyes and it tells me where the bird is.

whiterock · Post by **whiterock** » Mon May 30, 2011 8:17 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Ron R wrote:A dog's style is in the eye of the beholder...so what I'm asking for is some picks of what you all consider style.

I will start with two variations, one low and one high.

Here is the original post. Seems to me to be asking which is more stylish and does not mention intensity of a high head. And the answer was, is, and always will be which ever one you like the best. Just personal opinion.

Ezzy

I can't tell you which one most people will like.

I can tell you that if you breed that liver dog to another dog that crouches like that, you will see more crouchy dogs.

Further, I can tell you that if crouchy is what you like, it is possible to get them all the way down to the ground.

p.s. it is easier to do that with a setter

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:04 am

Ruffshooter wrote:The post is asking what you as an individual find stylish, not asking which is better.

That's exactly right. I was asking for pictures of stylish dogs and pointing out two variations of stylish dogs in my opinion. I really enjoy all of the great pics, thanks

.

birddogger wrote:I am not saying that any and every dog can be conditioned to do it, but a lot of them can be and are.

PkerStr8Tail wrote:but I have never seen a dog that I knew of that was trained to point in a high position rather than it's naturally low position. To me pointing position and stance is purely genetics.

I'm not sure that a trainer can condition or control a dog's style but attempt to encourage the dog's natural genetics (barrel, table, bench) but in the end genetics will take over.

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:25 am

slistoe wrote:If a dog is trained to stand when it encounters scent they are not pointing and will not look like they are pointing - no intensity and without intensity there is ZERO style.

If it's even possible to train a dog to do that "the imaginary dog in question" has never had and never will have intensity or style.

But I can and do train dogs to stand and go on a point like stance with intensity without a bird being present through conditioning them to associate whoa with birds. Meaning whoa equals birds and birds equal freeze, hense whoaing with intensity rather than just stop, drop anchor and look at you.

ben33127 · Post by **ben33127** » Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:47 am

+1

ezzy333 wrote:
Ron R wrote:A dog's style is in the eye of the beholder...so what I'm asking for is some picks of what you all consider style.

I will start with two variations, one low and one high.

Here is the original post. Seems to me to be asking which is more stylish and does not mention intensity of a high head. And the answer was, is, and always will be which ever one you like the best. Just personal opinion.

Ezzy