How would you handle this situation?

whoa on 'em · Post by **whoa on 'em** » Wed May 25, 2011 9:42 pm

I'm going to be purposely vague about my dog and breeder here so please no questions about specifics.

I purchased a puppy from a breeder who places an "unconditional health guarantee" on all his dogs. He told me the guarantee covers any genetic medical defects for the life of the dog. The details of how the guarantee would be honored was not discussed, I never expected to use it.

The puppy has since been diagnosed with a medical condition that requires she be spayed (yes, I planned to breed her at least once). The veterinary department of the local university described the condition as “rare but more common in line bred dogs.”

I notified the breeder and gave him the vet’s cell phone number. He said he was sorry and he would call me back after speaking to my vet. I haven’t heard from him in two weeks. I seriously doubt he is trying to avoid me but I have decided I will call him this weekend.

With all that said I do not want the dog replaced, we have grown attached and want to keep her. I do not want another dog, we simply do not have the time or room to devote to another dog. I spent $1100 purchasing the dog plus around $250 for shipping. The examination was $121.50 and the spay will cost about $165.

I am not out to harm the breeders reputation, I have been extremely pleased so far. I am not out to recoup every penny I have spent either, I just want some suggestions as to what is fair in this situation.

Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed May 25, 2011 9:44 pm

Is there a genetic basis for the condition?

whoa on 'em · Post by **whoa on 'em** » Wed May 25, 2011 9:46 pm

According to the local university there is.

snips · Post by **snips** » Wed May 25, 2011 9:49 pm

What is the condition you were diagnosed with?

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed May 25, 2011 9:51 pm

I assume OSU? Not to start a debate, but breeding is not usually covered in a guarantee. Can you name the condition?

whoa on 'em · Post by **whoa on 'em** » Wed May 25, 2011 9:53 pm

vaginal hyperplasia

http://www.petplace.com/dogs/vaginal-hy ... page1.aspx

Post by **kninebirddog** » Wed May 25, 2011 9:58 pm

whoa on 'em wrote:I'm going to be purposely vague about my dog and breeder here so please no questions about specifics.

I purchased a puppy from a breeder who places an "unconditional health guarantee" on all his dogs. He told me the guarantee covers any genetic medical defects for the life of the dog. The details of how the guarantee would be honored was not discussed, I never expected to use it.

The puppy has since been diagnosed with a medical condition that requires she be spayed (yes, I planned to breed her at least once). The veterinary department of the local university described the condition as “rare but more common in line bred dogs.”

I notified the breeder and gave him the vet’s cell phone number. He said he was sorry and he would call me back after speaking to my vet. I haven’t heard from him in two weeks. I seriously doubt he is trying to avoid me but I have decided I will call him this weekend.

With all that said I do not want the dog replaced, we have grown attached and want to keep her. I do not want another dog, we simply do not have the time or room to devote to another dog. I spent $1100 purchasing the dog plus around $250 for shipping. The examination was $121.50 and the spay will cost about $165.

I am not out to harm the breeders reputation, I have been extremely pleased so far. I am not out to recoup every penny I have spent either, I just want some suggestions as to what is fair in this situation.

Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

Most Breeders will replace a pup with another..I know some breeders ask for defective pup back, unless some other arrangements are made proof of spay and all other required documents.

What you might consider though you may not wish to add another pup to your home now maybe leave the door option some where down the road when you are ready or get the pup and sell it

Then sadly there are some breeders that may not can not accept that they have sold a pup requiring replacement and avoid the situation like the plague

As I tell people it isn't a matter of IF it will happen it is only a matter of When and that is where your good breeders step up to the plate

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Wed May 25, 2011 10:02 pm

I would say 50% of the dog refunded or vet bills..... after seeing some "breeders" and what they say to sell a pup the health grantee ain't worth nutin unless they have the dogs and money to back it up.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Wed May 25, 2011 10:04 pm

Tough call. I'd be happy with the reimbursement of medical expenses.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Wed May 25, 2011 10:36 pm

If what your saying is true (full health guarantee) I would be expecting almost all the money back. You spent $1100 dollars on a dog that has a genetic health defect that has to be spay. That dog has almost no value to the breeder and since it's going to be spayed the breeder doesn't have to worry about it. I would expect at least $900 back since what you have now have a $200 dog you just spent $1600 on. I understand the emotional involvement completely and feel bad for you. If I had spent $300 on the dog I would just write it off as bad luck, but not for that kind of money.

quanah labs · Post by **quanah labs** » Wed May 25, 2011 11:36 pm

I am in the retail business, and everything I sell comes with a guarantee, and I have yet to ever have one of my customers feel bad about requesting proper compensation if one of my products fails under the warranty.And when one of my customers voiced there disapointment, in my merchandise, I never felt like it was a personal attack on my integrity and never took it personally. Now I am not in the dog business so things might be a little different, but if I paid that kind of money I would expect to get what I paid for and in this case if you don't pursue the guarantee you are not getting your moneys worth.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Wed May 25, 2011 11:43 pm

You can't expect the breeder to pay for a dog the person is keeping... you can't expect a regular person who bought the dog for a family pet/hunting buddy/trial partner to give the dog back because they want a refund. It's a bad situation. Then again its better to find the dog has a problem before it throws a litter of dogs that have the same genetic defect.

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Thu May 26, 2011 12:06 am

First of all I see you live in Oklahoma so I would drive out here where I live and knock about $100 off your spay fee. $165 for a spay is outrageous and $121.50 for an exam fee also seems sky high as well. I think you are right to call as well. If I had sold you the pup I would immediately make it my priority to call the vet and to make this right but that is me. 2 weeks seems like plenty of time to sit down, make a phone call to the vet, figure out how he is going to make it right with you, and to call you as well. I think you should be fully reimbursed for the purchase price of your pup and the breeder should thank you for agreeing to keep the pup even with the current genetic problems. You stated that the breeder gives an "unconditional" lifetime genetic health gurantee and in order to back this up I am sure you will be given the options you previously mentioned. Since you are choosing to keep the dog I would say the vet bills are on you and you should be reimbursed your original purchase price and the dog immediately spayed in order to keep bad genetics out of the gene pool. If you agreed to return the dog in lieu of another pup the dog is in all likelihood going to be destroyed if the breeder is responsible, therefore, he should not be too upset at having to refund money for a dog he would most likely destroy himself. Good luck and sorry to hear about your dog.

shags · Post by **shags** » Thu May 26, 2011 5:09 am

I don't think there is any way you get both the purchase price back, and get to keep the dog unless the breeder is above-and-beyond generous. If the breeder normally offers a replacement and you decide not to take it, his obligation is fulfilled. If you're lucky the breeder's policy may include payback for medical expenses but I wouldn't count on it.

Thank you for posting about this, it's a reminder to all of us, producers and buyers, to insure the details of a transaction are clear to both parties.

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Thu May 26, 2011 5:28 am

shags wrote:I don't think there is any way you get both the purchase price back, and get to keep the dog unless the breeder is above-and-beyond generous. If the breeder normally offers a replacement and you decide not to take it, his obligation is fulfilled.

I agree...unfortunate situation, but you can not have it both ways...

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Thu May 26, 2011 5:43 am

I would call the vet first to see if he called, then call him.
You are keeping the dog and do not want another dog at this time.
You were going to breed once for some reason then probably spay the dog?
Option 1: Half the price of the dog to you.
Option 2: A new pup down the road, (If you trust that the breeder will honor that in will still be in business)
Option 3: Do nothing and enjoy the pup. ( the pup is still going to be a hunter and fill the function. other than breeding.

Any way, I have been in this boat. Took the pup. (He did not want the other pup back.) Then found that pup had a problem. Just did nothing and am enjoying both. I let him know about the problem, he offered to take pup back. Or that he would take care of me in the future.

Rick

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Thu May 26, 2011 7:57 am

You seem like you are going about this in the right way. I dont think that it is fair that the breeder pay the total cost of the puppy and all related expenses that you have listed, this is a fickled game we play with no real guarantees. However I would expect any breeder who makes health guarantees to back them up. I would assume that he will offer a pup and while you dont want one now It might be nice down the road to know that there is a suitable pup available. As far as monetary reimbersment, I feel like halfsh would seem fair if you weren't willing to accept a pup, but that is just me.
My thought is unless you bought the pup with specific intentions of breeding her then having a functioning family/field companion you have gotten what you payed for.

After 2 weeks your breeder has had plenty of time to call the vet and make a decision as to what he is willing to do. I'd say give your vet a call and see if he talked to the breeder and see if you can get a feel for their conversation, then give the breeder a call and see what you can come up with.

Written guarantee?

Jim

PkerStr8Tail · Post by **PkerStr8Tail** » Thu May 26, 2011 8:21 am

whoa on 'em wrote:I spent $1100 purchasing the dog plus around $250 for shipping.

Wow. I need to start advertising in Oklahoma.

JoeFriday · Post by **JoeFriday** » Thu May 26, 2011 8:34 am

If it were me in that situation and I still wanted to breed a dog, I'd be happy if the breeder gave me a future breedable pup at half price. I think that would seem fair for everyone involved.

snips · Post by **snips** » Thu May 26, 2011 8:54 am

I would appreciate the owner wanting to keep the dog...But would refund the price pd upon spay...

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu May 26, 2011 9:33 am

In the end of the deal he/she (breeder) will have to live with themselves and you with yourself. You are attached to the dog and it was your intention to breed it at least once, I would approach this with the positive thought that you have a dog you love, and then I would shelf the emotion. Sit at your computer and state clearly what you think is fair in writing to your breeder. For instance,

Mr/Mrs. Breeder,

I do regret that we have to broach the subject of the health guarantee that came with the puppy I purchased from you. As you are aware, due to genetic defect x I am forced to have the puppy spayed. My first concern is the health of a dog that we have come to love a great deal, however, this does limit the options and functionality that I had purchased the puppy for. In light of this, I respectfully ask that you honor the guarantee with the following compensation:

A refund of 1/2 the purchase price of the puppy = to X
Reimbursement of veterinary cost associated to the health issues = to X (the detailed billing is listed below)
detail
detail

I/we understand that these things happen and truly do wish that the issue didn't exist. It is my hope that by putitng this in writing I can clearly express my thoughts about the matter for your review. If you have any questions please do not hesitate to call or e-mail me. I do look forward to your response.

Best regards,

Whoa on em

Then I would wait for a response, chances are you reach an agreement, if not, you have documented what you have asked for reasonably and can use that as a working document. To speculate, if I was the breeder I would give you all the money and thank you for giving my dog a good home. If I was you the consumer I would expect fair compensation, if I didn't get it, I would probably go ahead and enjoy my dog and limit my recourse to the word of mouth someone unwilling to resolve the issue would deserve.

fwiw,
Joe

Pryor Creek Okie · Post by **Pryor Creek Okie** » Thu May 26, 2011 9:02 pm

PkerStr8Tail wrote:
whoa on 'em wrote:I spent $1100 purchasing the dog plus around $250 for shipping.

Wow. I need to start advertising in Oklahoma.

It's not a pointer.

jhoughton · Post by **jhoughton** » Fri May 27, 2011 4:03 am

I would hold onto the dog and enjoy it if you can't part with her. Most health guarantees are dealt with by replacing the dog with a pup from another litter. The dog world is a small one and reputation especially when competing and breeding dogs is everything. If you really enjoy the dog and want to hold onto her I would just let it go.

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs · Post by **Ricky Ticky Shorthairs** » Fri May 27, 2011 4:38 am

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Fri May 27, 2011 5:10 am

PkerStr8Tail wrote:
whoa on 'em wrote:I spent $1100 purchasing the dog plus around $250 for shipping.

Wow. I need to start advertising in Oklahoma.

....ruth

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Fri May 27, 2011 6:30 am

I remember this topic was the first topic i was passionate about when i joined this forum and this is why!!..a contract is useless unless its SPECIFIC..there is lots of room for interpretation if it only states theres a life time guarantee against health issues for the dog..what does that guarantee give as a solution if the guarantee is needed?..in my opinion, even if the breeder takes the dog back thats not a solution to your financial expenses unless he refunds your purchase price IN FULL..any reputable, responsible breeder will do whats best for his pup and for his buyer to maintain a business with a good name and will work with you in a reasonable and timely manner..the vet bill i feel is yours, without speaking to the breeder ahead of time and agreeing to a "limit" he is willing to contribute he should not be expected to pay the vet bill.. JMO..what i would do is to decide what will make you and your family happy and discuss that with the breeder if/when you talk to him.. to me you only have 2 real choices here and thats keep pup as a non breeding hunting companion and all expenses are yours or return the pup and get a full refund back and purchase what you intended on purchasing to start with (with a much more specific contract next time, live and learn so to speak)..obviously the choices also depend on what the breeder is willing to offer when he finally contacts you, and hopefully you may be able to work it out so everyones happy...good luck...ruth

volraider · Post by **volraider** » Fri May 27, 2011 7:10 am

IF I were the breeder I would give a full refund on return of the dog. That' s my guarentee. If the breeder does anything else then they are doing you a favor.

JuliaH · Post by **JuliaH** » Fri May 27, 2011 7:44 am

One thing that could be important for the breeder and the buyer is to have ANY guarantee, right of return, how everything works in case of a problem, in writing. When someone buys a pup, the guarantees should be spelled out and the bill of sale containing a guarantee or contract containing same, signed by both parties with copies to both parties.

I was a real estate broker and found that every contractual problem that was not written... spelled out explicitly... was a problem.

My own sales agreement when I have pups states what guarantees are given, and also states that the veterinarian that finds a problem gives a written notice to the owner, to give the breeder the right to have a vet of his/her choosing to check it out, also with written response.

It still sounds like this may be resolved with breeder and veterinarian. But it needs to be a meeting with all parties, so that any refund, return, problem can be discussed. Spay cost is not out of line with costs of spay at reputable clinics in GA. Cost of vet visit could include diagnostics such as x-ray or ultrasound, so that sounds fair too. Only the owner of the pup can be comfortable or not with those costs. I would not use a low cost spay-neuter clinic for this problem.

For what it's worth, any verbal contract is only worth the paper it's written on!

Julia

whoa on 'em wrote:I'm going to be purposely vague about my dog and breeder here so please no questions about specifics.

I purchased a puppy from a breeder who places an "unconditional health guarantee" on all his dogs. He told me the guarantee covers any genetic medical defects for the life of the dog. The details of how the guarantee would be honored was not discussed, I never expected to use it.

I notified the breeder and gave him the vet’s cell phone number. He said he was sorry and he would call me back after speaking to my vet. I haven’t heard from him in two weeks. I seriously doubt he is trying to avoid me but I have decided I will call him this weekend.

With all that said I do not want the dog replaced, we have grown attached and want to keep her. I do not want another dog, we simply do not have the time or room to devote to another dog. I spent $1100 purchasing the dog plus around $250 for shipping. The examination was $121.50 and the spay will cost about $165.

Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Fri May 27, 2011 8:16 am

IF I were the breeder I would give a full refund on return of the dog. That' s my guarentee. If the breeder does anything else then they are doing you a favor.

If the you got the pup returned, what would you do with a pup with a medical condition? It seems to me that most would have it put down, because trying to sell a pup from your stock with a genetic condition might reflect badly on your breeding program. I would think taking that hard line stance might lead to having your reputation smeared. While most forums don't allow you to talk bad about a kennel some will allow you to smear a particular dog.

JuliaH · Post by **JuliaH** » Fri May 27, 2011 8:30 am

I agree with nike.... A pup with a medical condition should either be euthanized humanely, or spayed/neutered and sent to a pet home, imho.

The most important thing though is that NO forum outta allow smearing breeders or dogs. It is not usually hard to find out the origin of a particular dog.... and I hope this forum is one that would not allow such activity. In breeding even fine animals, there may be times that something goes wrong, and smearing either breeder, owner or animal should never be allowed. Innuendo is easily used to ruin reputations.

Julia

nikegundog wrote:
IF I were the breeder I would give a full refund on return of the dog. That' s my guarentee. If the breeder does anything else then they are doing you a favor.
If the you got the pup returned, what would you do with a pup with a medical condition? It seems to me that most would have it put down, because trying to sell a pup from your stock with a genetic condition might reflect badly on your breeding program. I would think taking that hard line stance might lead to having your reputation smeared. While most forums don't allow you to talk bad about a kennel some will allow you to smear a particular dog.

Pryor Creek Okie · Post by **Pryor Creek Okie** » Fri May 27, 2011 9:18 am

The OP clearly stated that he has been pleased with the breeder so far, and he does not wish to hurt his reputation. He's only looking for advice on what might be fair compensation. Whoa, for what it's worth, I think he breeder should cover the cost of the spay and offer you a discount on a future pup.

JuliaH · Post by **JuliaH** » Fri May 27, 2011 9:46 am

A forum is not the place to figure it out though.... there is some good advice to be had, but this has to be settled among breeder, owner, and veterinarians... We don't know the entire story, and so we are trying to advise based only upon one side of the problem...

IMHO,

Julia

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Fri May 27, 2011 1:25 pm

"A pup with a medical condition should either be euthanized humanely, or spayed/neutered and sent to a pet home, imho."

Why does this dog need to go to a pet home? This dog will still hunt, It is just a female problem. :roll:

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri May 27, 2011 1:33 pm

Ruffshooter wrote:"A pup with a medical condition should either be euthanized humanely, or spayed/neutered and sent to a pet home, imho."

Why does this dog need to go to a pet home? This dog will still hunt, It is just a female problem. :roll:

I agree wholeheartedly. The only thing affected was the breeding value of the animal. And, the disorder, while probably resulting from a genetic predisposition, may have been a one time occurance, not a chronic condition. The decision to spay was made based on available knowledge and that event is what was unanticipated. Little harsh to kill a dog for having a problem that's fixed.

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Fri May 27, 2011 2:10 pm

Ruffshooter wrote:"A pup with a medical condition should either be euthanized humanely, or spayed/neutered and sent to a pet home, imho."

Why does this dog need to go to a pet home? This dog will still hunt, It is just a female problem. :roll:

I agree with ruffshooter, dogs have all kinds of medical issues throughout the years that we have them and what if this female would have been hunting for 5 years and then the condition was diagnosed?.. just sending her to a pet home is not necessary for this condition and certainly not euthanasia..ruth

Fester · Post by **Fester** » Fri May 27, 2011 7:02 pm

Sounds like the problem is you already love the dog so a trade back for another pup is out of the question, I don't like it that he has not gotten back with you yet
Fester

whoa on 'em · Post by **whoa on 'em** » Fri May 27, 2011 10:33 pm

Just to clear a couple things up...

The breeder has spoken to my vet. We live several states apart so a second opinion by a vet of his choice isn't really an option.

I am in no way trying to harm the breeder’s reputation.

I am keeping the pup and she will not be euthanized. After spay she should live a fully functional life. Her condition is genetic but after spay the genetics will not be passed on, she does not have to be euthanized to ensure that.

My sole intent here was to get an idea of what is fair for both parties before I contact him. To be honest I feel like he should cover the vet bills (approximately $300) and either refund a portion of the purchase price or provide a discount on a future pup.
Is this fair to both parties?

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri May 27, 2011 10:50 pm

whoa on 'em wrote:Just to clear a couple things up...

The breeder has spoken to my vet. We live several states apart so a second opinion by a vet of his choice isn't really an option.

I am in no way trying to harm the breeder’s reputation.

I am keeping the pup and she will not be euthanized. After spay she should live a fully functional life. Her condition is genetic but after spay the genetics will not be passed on, she does not have to be euthanized to ensure that.

My sole intent here was to get an idea of what is fair for both parties before I contact him. To be honest I feel like he should cover the vet bills (approximately $300) and either refund a portion of the purchase price or provide a discount on a future pup.
Is this fair to both parties?

I think that is fair, although I personally, as I said, would be happy with the vet bill reimbursed. I think it would also be fair if the genetic carrier can be identified that th discounted replacement not be of that line.

Hope you get a satiafactory resolution. You appear to be handling a frustrating situation calmly and objectively.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Fri May 27, 2011 10:52 pm

A replacement pup in the future

As for vet bills..If the Breeder whats you to take vet for second opinion then yes I would expect the breeder to cover the costs for Second Opinion