Gun Dog Forum

I am about to pick up my first hunting dog in a couple of weeks and my breeder believes that the pup needs to be taken from the mom on the 49th day of her life. This seemed to be perfectly fine to me but I have noticed some conflicting ideas on this line of thought. Here are a few examples of what I mean. In the latest Gun Dog magazine June/July(Vol.30 No.2) there is an article by Dr. Ed Bailey called "The Critical Period" which he basically dismises the 49 day rule stating, I'm paraphrasing, that it will hender the pups ability to be socialized and that by picking up the pup this early is doing a disservice to the dog and the people who buy them. So this really got me to thinking, is my breeder was making a mistake ,even though he has been producing fine dogs for years, and maybe I should ask him to hold the litter to 10 weeks, as Dr.Bailey suggests. I am a avid reader of the gundogmag.com so I started to read the article about picking the right breeder for your next gun dog. I would attach a link to the article but the site is currently under construction. It had about 15 different , well respected, kennels of all different gun dog breeders talk about each kennels puppy buy process. It talked about how each breeder helped the buyer decide on a pup and talked about how each kennel handled the pups first weeks of life. I went thru every kennel to look at the pick up time and everyone of them had the client pick up there pup at somewhere between 6 to 9 weeks, but most of them was at 7 weeks. So I found it odd that if the 49 day rule was so harmful to the pup why did every breeder in the article have there pups picked up before the 10 weeks rule that Dr. Ed Bailey insists on in his article? This kind of conflicting reports , from the same gun dog resource, is very confusing to a novice gun dog owner like myself so I wanted to get the opinion of this forum on this topic. Thanks in advance for your input

If you leave the pups with the female 10 weeks her tits will be 3 inchs long, JMHO
Fester

it really doesnt matter, I have picked up dogs at a year old from the breeder. nonsense if I had my say.....

If the breeder lets his puppies go at 7 weeks you do not want your puppy left alone for 3 more weeks , even if he makes special effort to socialize.
We let our puppies go at 7 weeks . We have many repeat clients and have observed no problems.

topher40 wrote:it really doesnt matter, I have picked up dogs at a year old from the breeder. nonsense if I had my say.....

Had pups in and out from six weeks to whatever. There are some things that young puppies cannot do, but as far as bonding and responsiveness, I find it doesn't really matter

Ive picked hunting dogs up from 6wks to 6yrs and have never had any issues with them that I would associate with the time spent with the litter.

Jim

There is nothing magical about 49 days. If the breeder is doing no interacting with the pups then pick them up at 6 wks. If the pups are going to a dogless home and are being socialized and stimulated at the breeder then leave them till 10 weeks if the breeder wants.

The other benefit to leaving the pup at the breeder until 10 weeks is that the first round of vaccines can be put off until 8 weeks or so, unless it is too late to wait. I think 7 weeks is too early in any case.

It's amazing to me to hear such statements as "nothing magical" about 49 days.

The 49 day method is based upon research by Dr. Micheal Fox. His conclusion was that a puppies brain is fully developed at that date. The puppy is therefore ready to bond with it's new pack, or fall into the pack hierarchy that it was born into. This was the most pioneering science for canine development in it's time (late 80's). Here is a link to an article with the details of this research.

http://www.vanerp.net/ilse/GSDINFO/stag ... inedev.htm

It was common place way back in the 80's to pick up your puppies at 49 days. It was considered the norm. Nothing wrong with it now, it worked for me with a few dogs, may still work.

We even had bird launchers in the 80's, and e-collars too.

Vision-

If I had a "Dr" In front of my name then it would lend more credit to my statement? I have had hundreds of dogs through here and never seen ANY significance about 49-49-99-5000 days. Good dogs are born that way and it doesnt matter how late/early you take them from mom. That is why picking a 7 week old pup is such a crap shoot.

I'll be the first to say that my opinion on this doesn't count for much. But I think that 49 days (7 weeks) is a good baseline for the earliest you should pick up a pup due to physical development. The length of time that you wait beyond that is more an issue of socializing, which can be handled perfectly fine by the breeder. I picked my pup up on her 77th day, and she's extremely well adjusted and possibly even easier to integrate into my house because her age made it easier to housetrain her right away.

So, personally I wouldn't want to pick up a pup before 49 days, but I wouldn't worry about how long after that you wait, assuming the breeder handles the pups daily to socialize them with people. I think the optimal window is 8-12 weeks old. But that's based on absolutely nothing.

What is the rest of the litter doing? If the other pups are staying it makes sense to let your pup hang with the littermates for a while longer.

topher40 wrote:Vision-

If I had a "Dr" In front of my name then it would lend more credit to my statement? I have had hundreds of dogs through here and never seen ANY significance about 49-49-99-5000 days. Good dogs are born that way and it doesnt matter how late/early you take them from mom. That is why picking a 7 week old pup is such a crap shoot.

+1

I haven't yet near the experience as Chris, but I've had a multitude of puppies and picked my own dogs/puppies anywhere from 49 days (Richard Wolters believed wholeheartedly in the 49 day rule as well) to 8 weeks - 7 years old. I have noticed no difference whatsoever. Chris is spot on, either they are born with it or they aren't.

As far as leaving the pups with the mama for 10 weeks and her teats being 3" long, well I wonder why in the heck would you not have the pups seperated from mama LONG before that? I seperated my pups from mama at 5 1/2 weeks, when they were fully weined. She was more than ready to be away from them.

I'd be more interested in what kind of socialization program/regimen the pups have gone/going through than worrying about when to take them home. With that being said, IMO taking a pup away from its littermates before 7 weeks old is not a good idea.

I would say that its important for the pups to be together and for the pups to be with mum to learn things from one another that they just cant learn from us humans until at least 7 weeks old..with that being said, alot of how it all is put together is upto the breeder as well..the pups once weaned (4 to 5weeks) learn alot from the interactions they have with people around them..this is a good time for the pups to be handled by children and played with, experience the outdoors (if weather permitted) and their ears and feet touched ect but spend most of the time with their littermates and mum..i have had pups/kittens 3 weeks old and had to bottle feed them due to the mom being dead and they bond TOO CLOSE to people i have found and dont learn proper animal behaviour, are very clingy and are a bit too insecure by 6 weeks of age..also i have had my own dogs from the breeder at 10 weeks of age and they seem to settle in and house/crate train quickly, alot less whiney i think too..i dont think theres an exact age that is perfect i think 7 weeks is a general age and by then the breeder most likely doesnt have the time to dedicate to house training and individual time needed for each pup ect, also unless the breeder starts to feed each individual pup seperate a feeding issue can develope with the puppy because they tend to have to "fight" for food if they are all fed together especially if theres alot of them and it does start to create a fast and aggressive eater if they are fed like this for very long..this is SOMETIMES the reason people get a pup or young dog and it eats very fast and seems worried someone will take their food away..i have dealt with that many times with younger dogs and one good thing is its easy to break them of it with patience....so i say with breeder until AT LEAST 7 weeks old and after that it depends on the breeder to provide everything needed for the pup to thrive properly until whatever age its rehomed....ruth

8 weeks was the standard for years and it still is better for the pups to be together at least that long. We now know there are some things to be gained if they are together even longer. But again everyone has an opinion and none of us has the equipment or knowledge to really measure what is best. Mine don't go till eight weeks at the earliest, most airlines won't ship anything younger than that so it seems like a good time to me. Can you take a pup at 7 weeks or 6 weeks? yep and the pup should be OK health wise but I do believe you are sacrificing socialization with other dogs you can not replace.

If Dr. Fox is right on the 49 day timing. then it is the only thing ha has been right on.

Ezzy

My pups are always picked up the weekend after turning 7 wks old. I have 2 shots in them at that time..Never had any issues....

It's personal preference really. A pup can learn its name by the age of 4 weeks and how to sit and stay by 6 weeks. So there are advantages in getting it at a younger age. Although we don't teach hunting dogs to sit.

As an occassional breeder I see a difference in the social behavior being enforced on the puppies by the older dogs the longer I keep the puppies past 7 weeks. My other older adult dogs are allowed to run and play with the puppies from the first time the pups can venture out and I notice that each adult treats the puppies different the older the puppies get. One example, I have noticed when the puppies get too rough the older dogs gently mouth the puppies and pin them to the ground which seems to settle the pup down. The mother will go from pup to pup and do the same thing by pinning each one to the ground with her mouth until they stop struggling. This happens from 7 or 8 weeks on up. How positive that is to the developement of the puppies I don't know but I haven't had a problem with a pup adapting socially to different situations.

Most of my buyers pick up their pup at 7 weeks but there are times I keep a few around to 9 or 10 depending on the buyers situation.

I think that you might want to check with the breeder on his pickup rule. I will let a puppy go at 49 days or will keep it for longer is the customer prefers it that way. I just won't let the pup go before 49 days. My bet is that your puppy's breeder would be the same way.
As for the "puppies are born with it" argument, you might want to be a little more clear with what they are born with. Socialization is something they are not born with but something that is learn. That is what the 49 day rule really give the pup.

Pennsylvania change their puppy age law the year I got my Britt. (2 yrs). It is unlawful to sell a puppy under the age of 8 weeks now. It was 6 weeks before that.
I agree with 7-8 weeks as a minimum. What happens after that has more to do with how the breeder/new owner socializes them. IMO.

I never knew a state had a puppy age law. I just sent 2 pups to Pennsylvania about a month ago when they were 6 weeks. The started weaning at about 4 1\ 2 weeks and were completely weaned by about 5 1/ 2 weeks. I am not sure about the 49 day rule but I do know that if dogs have no socialization at all after the weaning age they are really messed up in the head. I have taken some older pups from a local field trialer and those pups had no socialization at all after the weaning phase other than being evaluated for a trial string and without fail every one I took had psychological and emotional issues. These pups were all from different litters and varying ages but all had spent their formative bonding time in kennels with no attention or very little human interaction other than feeding and evaluation time.

Colorado has a law also [8 weeks] ; there are about 15 states with the same law.

Vision wrote:It's amazing to me to hear such statements as "nothing magical" about 49 days.

The 49 day method is based upon research by Dr. Micheal Fox. His conclusion was that a puppies brain is fully developed at that date. The puppy is therefore ready to bond with it's new pack, or fall into the pack hierarchy that it was born into. This was the most pioneering science for canine development in it's time (late 80's). Here is a link to an article with the details of this research.

http://www.vanerp.net/ilse/GSDINFO/stag ... inedev.htm
It was common place way back in the 80's to pick up your puppies at 49 days. It was considered the norm. Nothing wrong with it now, it worked for me with a few dogs, may still work.
We even had bird launchers in the 80's, and e-collars too.

That research is usually re quoted from a study Dr. Fox did in the late 60's. MUCH has been done in the following 40+ years to continue that and I believe Dr. Fox's research was still fairly sound, but Walter's extrapolation from it was overstated. For one the 49th days was Dr. Fox's cuttoff "too late to do later" date, not the ideal. And Two AND A BIG POINT is that Dr. Fox's research did not compare bonding transfers from one human family to another, it compared NO bonding with humans to bonding with humans. If your litter is negleted for 49 days than you MUST get your pup by the 49th day or you will have one very shy undersocialized puppy. Bonding interspecies begins at day 3 with newer methods and continues throughout.

More recent research has been done on Dog/Dog interaction, showing that litter time helps develop social skills for puppies to get along with other dogs later on. I do not preach either one, but either way you look at it newer research has some very useful stuff to tell you also. Puppies also go through a fearful period between 5 and 10 weeks for a few days. I will post some of this research with citations if you wish. Or I will write an article if you wish listing all the newer research if anyone is interested.

And ALSO seperating a puppy from its littermates is very different from seperating them from mom. My puppies are weaned by 4-5 weeks, but I certainlyw ould not send home a 4 week old puppy. So talking about when a puppy can go to a new home has nothing to do with when they are weaned.

So it seems to me, based on the consensus of this forum, that picking up a puppy is acceptable before 10 weeks. I went in to this post feeling pretty confident that 7 weeks was ok and now I am 100% sure that it is fine. My problem is now, why would a well respected magazine "(Gun Dog") print an article that basically says you are a fool for getting a dog from a kennel that allows there pups to be picked up before 10 weeks? Then have a .com article about the top breeders puppy buying requirements and every breeder in the article has there pups picked up before 10 weeks.This kind on conflicting reports ,from the same source, is harmful for the novice gun dog owner, and is really bad reporting. I may just be naive and think the magazine really cares about presenting sound gun dog advice and not just feeling the pages with enough content to attract advertisers, but that may be too much to ask.

Because of the inter-litter learning, fear stage issue and because they are counting on the breeder being as involved as they should be. Try not to look for problems here or in magazines, just pick your puppy from a breeder you trust. If you listen to what your breeder has to say about when to go home and have doubts about their plans, pick a different one. LOTS of puppies out there from all kinds of people.
Keep in mind that what is ideal and what is "okay" are not the same.

taxidermy wrote:Colorado has a law also [8 weeks] ; there are about 15 states with the same law.

Florida included.

I have to agree, nothing magical about 49 days. I'd consider 7 weeks a minimum age, but I fail to see how keeping them longer will make any difference.
I'm not really sure what the 49 day rule means for the 2 we kept from our last litter. They're going on 1,460 days with their momma and they seem fine.

Articles in most magazines are not reporting but are the authors opinion. He may or may not back that up with links to the research or what other sources he has but it does not say that everyone agrees including the magazine itself.

Ezzy

The whole key to this debate is socialization. You can have the best bred dogs on the Planet and without socialization they usually amount to nothing. I've seen two dogs that prove this point. One was a female GSP out of Beier's Evolution x Ace's Prima Banane which was the most successful breeding to date in terms of titled dogs in the GSP circles. This puppy was bought at 8 weeks, brought home and shortly there after the owners split up in a nasty divorce. That puppy never got socialized from about 10 weeks on until she was a year old. She was around 2 older dogs, but in a seperate kennel. She was untrainable because you could not touch her. She would freak out at any kind of touch. Her breeding was such that she should have become a FC & AFC with ease as most of her siblings were titled. In an other case I bought a female pup at 12 weeks old out of Tekeo Moutain Sunrise bred to a female out of a Titled Father and Mother. The puppies were kinda offish when I looked at them. One male was extremely bold and obviously far ahead of the rest of the puppies, but he was the pick of the litter and the breeder was keeping him. I picked a female from the litter, but in terms of boldness she was nothing like the male and a little bit human shy. After 3 days at home I took her back because she was a mess. She cowered every time anybody was around her, wet herself at any noise, just a mess. When I took her back the breeder admitted that since the puppies had been weaned he had only spent time with the one male. He left the others in the kennel all the time with no human interaction at all except for feeding/ cleaning time. In both cases the breeding was sound and proven which is only a portion of the success in a gun dogs life.

The 49 day thing is not a rule, but a guideline. If a long time breeder has this policy in place then it must work for them in spite of contradictory articles that exist.

We all know who impacts State laws, and Airlines guidelines.

Vision wrote:The whole key to this debate is socialization.

I agree.

ezzy333 wrote:Articles in most magazines are not reporting but are the authors opinion. He may or may not back that up with links to the research or what other sources he has but it does not say that everyone agrees including the magazine itself.

Ezzy

Ya your right. It was just a little confusing, I still can't wait to get the magazine in the mail.

I don't see how the 49 day rule has much to do with this. Whether a pup goes home at 6 weeks, 7 weeks, 8 weeks or 12 weeks - you put that dog in a cage and don't pay attention to it for a year, it's gonna be a mess. Period.

FWIW, I prefer at 8 weeks but it is just a pesonal preference because I have taken them at 6 weeks without a problem. I just prefer them to be with their litter mates a little longer.

Charlie

I prefer a quality breeding program and someone who spends time with their pups..If you have that age should have little to nothing to do with a pup that will make a great dog for you
I have gotten dogs at different ages. Picabo I got at 18 months to Blazer at 10 weeks. I rather get them later then earlier I do believe that pups that are able to stay with litter mates till at least 7 -8 weeks old do better with social pack then ones that are taken prior to. But if one knows how to handle it they can keep the pup learning the social skills

Just got in from quality time with pups

I have a litter that's been together for six years and four months, all's well so far.

Hi folks,

I've been off line for a while. Thought I'd bounce some thing off the group.

I co-own a female with the breeder. I brought the female to the breeder, who got two litters from her. the last litter was a single male (and a still born female.)

about a week later, another female of the breeder's had a litter of 10. three of those puppies were given to my female, to take the load off the mother, and give my puppy a litter to cuddle with...my female took the new puppies enthusiastically.

The breeder raises her puppies in the house, with lots of interaction, holding, stimulation, other dogs, kids, noise..... the kennel is also on a lake, so they're exposed to water early.

OK, that's the set up.

When I go to get my puppy, I will also bring the mother home with me.

I believe I am going to wait for my next time off (I work 28/28 off shore) which would put the puppy at apx 12 / 14 weeks. I was thinking of the 49th day, but the more I read, the more the 12th week option makes sense.

thoughts?

another opinion:
http://www.calibertollers.com/49daymyth.htm

I think the older the better (within reason). Every puppy I have ever got was 6 or 7 weeks old when I brought them home. Because I had to travel to the States to get my youngest dog, he was a bit older - almost 10 weeks. And I must say, he is the most mentally stable, easily adjustable dog I have ever owned. Is it because I left him longer? Well, probably not entirely. I'm sure his breeding had a huge impact, but I do think it is a factor. My other dog was got by my girlfriend at 6 weeks of age. That dog is completely different. I think what I notice the most is how they interact socially. Both were socialized the exact same way and got just as much attention but she just never really "got it". She can't just hang out with other dogs, always play fighting and uses her mouth for everything when playing with them. The younger dog just has a way with other dogs. He is much higher energy than our other dog, but he knows how to play properly with other dogs and doesn't act like an idiot. I think that extra time to mature helped big time. If I ever get another puppy I will be waiting till the pup is 10-12 weeks old to pick it up. There are lessons that its mother and siblings can teach that no amount of socializing with other dogs (after your's is vaccinated) can replace.

When we use to raise,breed,& show Dobes 49 days was the rule not a day younger or older & these were show dogs that had to show stability to the judges & the surrounding dogs in & out of the show ring.
Now they are saying 10 to 12 wks & I have sold pups from 7 wks up to adult dogs & never have seen much notable differences in them.JMO from what I have witnessed.

I subscribe to the 10 week theory. I've read a lot about dog socialization and I see that it's important for the pups to be with other pups (and the mom if possible) until they're at least 8-10 weeks old. Ten better than eight from what I'm reading and seeing. My pup has excellent interpersonal skills with other dogs and he stayed with the litter until he was 10 wks old. He was also the easiest pup I've ever housetrained. In many states, it is illegal to sell puppies before they are 8 weeks old.

There is a lot of new information that discredits the 49 day theory.