Field trials and breeding

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Vonzeppelinkennels
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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:35 pm

Andy an Hr is an Hr but I have trialed & I have hunted.I use to hunt 4 & 5 days a wk from starting time till quiting time when I only had 1 or 2 dogs that did it everyday with me.The difference is a dog that is use to hunting everyday for that length of time learns to pace themselves.Field trials are balls to the wall for the length of the stake however long that is 1/2,1,or 3 there is a BIG difference.
Try it yourself sometime,you could probably hunt all day with no problem but run fullspeed ahead for an hr.I think you would see the difference. :D

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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by slistoe » Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:43 pm

ACooper wrote:
slistoe wrote:
ACooper wrote:
What does that venue prove over some others? Still just an hour...
:D :D This truly is one of the most laughable comments in this thread. I ran quite a few dogs that were not at all competitive for an hour in front of a horse but they could quite easily handle 3 hour stints of hunting 2 x a day for 3 days in a row.

Although there are a tremendous number of Hour Winners in the AKC ranks, it is one of the drawbacks of the system IMO that there is no requirement for an Hour Win to qualify for FC. Stamina is one of the fundamentals of a good dog and although a 1/2 horseback stake can be tough it is the final 10 min. of the hour that separates winners from losers - dogs with grit/heart/guts/bottom (whatever you want to call it).
Speaking of laughable took you long enough... did you read what I posted? "What does that venue prove over some others?"
No doubt the time can separate the good from the bad, BUT an hour is still an hour, and a dog OUGHT to be able to put down an hour race, there shouldn't be any great accolades for completing an hour strong, as this is what is expected. Is an hour at Booneville tougher than an hour at Mile post 9? I hear a lot about Mile post 9 or the White Mountains in AZ (maybe the should be the black mountains now after the fire)... Further you cannot compare the pace and ground coverage of a dog being followed on foot as opposed to a dog being followed on horseback. It is obvious that it takes much more for a dog to stay in front of a horse for an hour than it does a handler on foot.

If it isn't obvious it should be this post from the beginning was meant to stir debate! The last thing I want is to get into another DK vs GSP as that is just a tired and pointless argument that doesn't really interest anyone anymore...
Absolutely I read what you wrote - "Still just an hour..." :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I am still laughing.

Yes, an hour in some places is different than in others, but the easiest horseback hour venue will still require much more dog than the toughest 1/2 hour venue. No hour long walking course will ever tax a dog as much as any hour long horseback course and anyone who thinks that Joe Bloe's hunting dog can wow the judges with a strong finish to his hour in front of the horses just because he is an "all day dog" and the course is "just an hour" is just plain deluded.

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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by ACooper » Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:14 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Andy an Hr is an Hr but I have trialed & I have hunted.I use to hunt 4 & 5 days a wk from starting time till quiting time when I only had 1 or 2 dogs that did it everyday with me.The difference is a dog that is use to hunting everyday for that length of time learns to pace themselves.Field trials are balls to the wall for the length of the stake however long that is 1/2,1,or 3 there is a BIG difference.
Try it yourself sometime,you could probably hunt all day with no problem but run fullspeed ahead for an hr.I think you would see the difference. :D
Ted I know we don't really know one another but if you knew me you would know that I am not really built for running! :lol:

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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by adogslife » Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:28 pm

How much bird finding ability and bird handling ability is being judged in 1 hour stakes (or any Ft stake)
Most dogs under 4 years old have enough stamina and endurance to make it through a balls to the walls hour

I want to know if prey drive is being judged and how.

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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by Cajun Casey » Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:30 pm

adogslife wrote:How much bird finding ability and bird handling ability is being judged in 1 hour stakes (or any Ft stake)
Most dogs under 4 years old have enough stamina and endurance to make it through a balls to the walls hour

I want to know if prey drive is being judged and how.
Prey drive is what keeps them running for that hour or two or three.
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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by ACooper » Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:44 pm

slistoe wrote:

Absolutely I read what you wrote - "Still just an hour..." :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I am still laughing.

Yes, an hour in some places is different than in others, but the easiest horseback hour venue will still require much more dog than the toughest 1/2 hour venue. No hour long walking course will ever tax a dog as much as any hour long horseback course and anyone who thinks that Joe Bloe's hunting dog can wow the judges with a strong finish to his hour in front of the horses just because he is an "all day dog" and the course is "just an hour" is just plain deluded.
If the hour is such a test of endurance then why it the National Championship three hours?

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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by adogslife » Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:11 pm

Prey drive is what keeps them running for that hour or two or three.
What proof is there?

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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:15 pm

adogslife wrote:
Prey drive is what keeps them running for that hour or two or three.
What proof is there?
All the proof you need is there if you go watch. Couldn't be any more visible. Prey drive has never been in short supply in most dogs of most breeds.

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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by Cajun Casey » Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:16 pm

adogslife wrote:
Prey drive is what keeps them running for that hour or two or three.
What proof is there?
Because they are DOGS. Prey drive is what makes any dog do the work for which it is bred. Even Seeing Eye and GDFTB dogs utilize prey drive in the sense that they seek an objective.
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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by bossman » Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:24 pm

Hey coop, rather than debating for the sake of debating, let's get back to one of you original issues... that "pro" field trailers do not produce hunting dogs. Just what is that statment based on? Is that your opinion or are there some statistics that support that comment. I believe the oppisite is true. Do you actually believe that with all those litter's produced by reputable professional trainer's, that all the pup's actually end up on the field trial ciricut. No..It is my opinion that a large percentage, if not the majority go to hunting homes or amateur handlers and by doing so, the breed is improved. . Again, jmo

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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by ACooper » Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:33 pm

bossman wrote:Hey coop, rather than debating for the sake of debating, let's get back to one of you original issues... that "pro" field trailers do not produce hunting dogs. Just what is that statment based on? Is that your opinion or are there some statistics that support that comment. I believe the oppisite is true. Do you actually believe that with all those litter's produced by reputable professional trainer's, that all the pup's actually end up on the field trial ciricut. No..It is my opinion that a large percentage, if not the majority go to hunting homes or amateur handlers and by doing so, the breed is improved. . Again, jmo
The statement was made to create a "stir"... I have owned dogs bred every which way, I had a daughter of Mert, she was also a grand daughter of Magnum, I have owned dogs down from Rusty, Hustler, Snap-e-tom, Clown ( she is probably the best dog I have had, but one UGLY bitch)... you know what they all had? They all made bird dogs. BUT was that the purpose when they were bred? Does it matter? Probably not but that doesn't mean we can't discuss and make stuff up to get a rise if we want to! :lol:


Why you trying to slow down my pot stirring? Taking away all the fun. :lol:
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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by northern cajun » Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:50 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
adogslife wrote:
Prey drive is what keeps them running for that hour or two or three.
What proof is there?
Because they are DOGS. Prey drive is what makes any dog do the work for which it is bred. Even Seeing Eye and GDFTB dogs utilize prey drive in the sense that they seek an objective.
@ Casey I totally disagree with the prey drive and seeing eye dog bit. I believe cooperation is much more important and is what is needed in that aspect, not prey drive, prey drive will get a dog to chase a cat across a road and get someone killed.

Coop all of my dogs come from FT stock except one, and they all make super great hunting dogs! Some of them trial pretty well too :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Field trial stock makes for really great hunting dogs!!
HAVE A GREAT DAY!!
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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by northern cajun » Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:56 pm

Casey here is a quote from GSD people as to why GSD dogs are not used more compared to labs and goldens for Guide dogs guess what too much prey drive!

The prey drive is definitely an issue, though I don't remember leader dogs ever mentioning any problems with it and Akira has prey drive. However, her training controls it. I think they assume dogs with high prey drive will go after ever rogue squirrel or loose cat, smaller dogs, etc..

However, I did pull what appeared to be a PB flat coated retriever (could've been a lab/golden or anything else though) from a high kill shelter a little ways outside the city several years back. She was a great dog and was being considered by a service dog agency I was training with. The hesitated with her prey and tug drive, which I thought was interesting. Her prey drive was what I would consider low drive, and her tug drive was that of any pet. She took the tug and shook it "the kill" shake and that gave them great cause for concern.
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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by slistoe » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:01 pm

ACooper wrote:
slistoe wrote:

Absolutely I read what you wrote - "Still just an hour..." :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I am still laughing.

Yes, an hour in some places is different than in others, but the easiest horseback hour venue will still require much more dog than the toughest 1/2 hour venue. No hour long walking course will ever tax a dog as much as any hour long horseback course and anyone who thinks that Joe Bloe's hunting dog can wow the judges with a strong finish to his hour in front of the horses just because he is an "all day dog" and the course is "just an hour" is just plain deluded.
If the hour is such a test of endurance then why it the National Championship three hours?
You have people who have been there, done that, telling you straight up what it is like and you want to snipe on the sidelines questioning the authenticity of the observation. There are literally hundreds of cracker jack "all day" hunting dogs that WILL NOT make an hour in front of a horse.
If you don't believe it why don't you just try running one of your cracker jacks in an hour horseback stake. Pick an easy course if you like. :P
Last edited by slistoe on Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by bossman » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:02 pm

Well coop, from the names you mentioned, looks like you have had some "mighty" good dogs! My avatar dog is out of Magnum (sorry for the unsolicited plug) :D

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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by Cajun Casey » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:09 pm

northern cajun wrote:Casey here is a quote from GSD people as to why GSD dogs are not used more compared to labs and goldens for Guide dogs guess what too much prey drive!

The prey drive is definitely an issue, though I don't remember leader dogs ever mentioning any problems with it and Akira has prey drive. However, her training controls it. I think they assume dogs with high prey drive will go after ever rogue squirrel or loose cat, smaller dogs, etc..

However, I did pull what appeared to be a PB flat coated retriever (could've been a lab/golden or anything else though) from a high kill shelter a little ways outside the city several years back. She was a great dog and was being considered by a service dog agency I was training with. The hesitated with her prey and tug drive, which I thought was interesting. Her prey drive was what I would consider low drive, and her tug drive was that of any pet. She took the tug and shook it "the kill" shake and that gave them great cause for concern.

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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by birddogger » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:09 pm

I would guess that a small percentage of trial bred dogs become good trial dogs but a large majority will make good hunting dogs. Also JMO.

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Edited: I worded that wrong in the first post.
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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by kensfishing » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:12 pm

adogslife wrote:How much bird finding ability and bird handling ability is being judged in 1 hour stakes (or any Ft stake)
Most dogs under 4 years old have enough stamina and endurance to make it through a balls to the walls hour

I want to know if prey drive is being judged and how.
That's a bunch of BULL. I've watched the Amt. Gun Dog at Eureka a number of times and most of these dogs barely make the half hour and most don't make the 45 minutes with enought in their tanks to impress anyone let alone an hour. To say that dogs 4 and under can go an hour in front of a horse in plain garbage. I've judged too many dogs in both a half hour and hour.

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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by ACooper » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:29 pm

slistoe wrote:
ACooper wrote:
slistoe wrote:

Absolutely I read what you wrote - "Still just an hour..." :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I am still laughing.

Yes, an hour in some places is different than in others, but the easiest horseback hour venue will still require much more dog than the toughest 1/2 hour venue. No hour long walking course will ever tax a dog as much as any hour long horseback course and anyone who thinks that Joe Bloe's hunting dog can wow the judges with a strong finish to his hour in front of the horses just because he is an "all day dog" and the course is "just an hour" is just plain deluded.
If the hour is such a test of endurance then why it the National Championship three hours?
You have people who have been there, done that, telling you straight up what it is like and you want to snipe on the sidelines questioning the authenticity of the observation. There are literally hundreds of cracker jack "all day" hunting dogs that WILL NOT make an hour in front of a horse.
If you don't believe it why don't you just try running one of your cracker jacks in an hour horseback stake. Pick an easy course if you like. :P
That's the eventual plan, either with the one I have or I will have to find one that can get it done...

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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by Vision » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:38 pm

ACooper wrote:
Vision wrote:Drag of the Race is why you need field trials. Unless you are measuring breeding stock for the highest performance then the genetic pull to mediocrity will result in inferior stock.

Do you mean field trials are needed to avoid mediocrity or testing in general? If you mean testing in general I would agree if you mean field trials specifically I would strongly disagree.

I believe field trials are needed, not so much with testing. Nothing personal Coop I just don't see much value in testing. I have judged many AKC hunt tests in the past and from my experience there was such a broad spectrum of quality in the dogs running and passing. It was hard for me to pass some dogs because I just could not fathom having to hunt behind such a dog, but if they met the requirements to pass you had to pass them. Testing does not sift the superior dogs to the top as placing winners does. At the end of the day all the dogs that passed are the same IN THAT THEY PASSED regardless of scores. You don't see titles awarded with the point totals, for example JH 1095 on this dog versus JH 976 on that dog. They all passed and that is what gets recorded. I am only commenting on AKC hunt tests, because I have no experience with NAVHDA.


I think you can make the comparison to horse racing versus horse testing if there was such a thing. If all 20 horses in the Derby just had to run the mile and 3/16 in a certain amount of time all it would prove is that they can run a certain distance in a required time frame. Give em all a bouquet of roses and put titles by there names and breed the heck out of them and see what happens to the breed. I know this may not be a popular opinion but popularity has little to do with truth.

I think the cover dog trials, and the AF wild birds trials are the ultimate proving ground for bird dogs. Running on wild game in natural habitat is the ultimate testing ground to find your best breeding stock.

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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by nikegundog » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:49 pm

Running on wild game in natural habitat is the ultimate testing ground to find your best breeding stock.
Is this is the case, why is there no AKC trials in MN,SD,and ND in Dec, Jan, Feb? I'm not a not sure if other orgs. test in these months but I checked the AKC calender for last year and didn't find one event.

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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by Wagonmaster » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:53 pm

False premise? OF COURSE! What else are we going to do to get a good conversation going? It would be extra boring around here if no one ever posted anything off the wall made up or a hair brained idea. I can start another topic about why navhda sucks and how those dogs all hunt too close, and lack style?
So....you lied to "start a conversation"?

When you have evidence of something, then you can say it is true. If you have an idea or opinion, say that it is your idea or opinion and then say why you believe it to be true. But don't make a statement of fact without any basis or evidence, just to "start a conversation." The world is not in need of such "conversations."

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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by Prairie Hunter » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:55 pm

Personally, I don’t think there are that many dogs that are great field trial dogs and great hunting dogs, and vice versa. More than likely, they will be great at one and decent at the other. For that reason, if I wanted a great hunting dog, I would select a pup from lines being bred with the primary goal of producing great hunting dogs. If trialing was more important to me, I would select from lines that are bred to trial. I would be looking for something different from each. So, do I think field trial breeders are improving hunting dogs? No I don’t. I think they are improving field trial dogs. And, I think hunting dog breeder improve hunting dogs. Just my opinion.

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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by ACooper » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:02 pm

Wagonmaster wrote:
False premise? OF COURSE! What else are we going to do to get a good conversation going? It would be extra boring around here if no one ever posted anything off the wall made up or a hair brained idea. I can start another topic about why navhda sucks and how those dogs all hunt too close, and lack style?
So....you lied to "start a conversation"?

When you have evidence of something, then you can say it is true. If you have an idea or opinion, say that it is your idea or opinion and then say why you believe it to be true. But don't make a statement of fact without any basis or evidence, just to "start a conversation." The world is not in need of such "conversations."
Oh get a grip, no one is forcing you to participate...

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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by kensfishing » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:17 pm

Prairie Hunter wrote:Personally, I don’t think there are that many dogs that are great field trial dogs and great hunting dogs, and vice versa. More than likely, they will be great at one and decent at the other. For that reason, if I wanted a great hunting dog, I would select a pup from lines being bred with the primary goal of producing great hunting dogs. If trialing was more important to me, I would select from lines that are bred to trial. I would be looking for something different from each. So, do I think field trial breeders are improving hunting dogs? No I don’t. I think they are improving field trial dogs. And, I think hunting dog breeder improve hunting dogs. Just my opinion.
Theres a problem with this comment. I've seen and heard the comments, I've got a great bird dog, let's breed them. Garbage again. Too much goes into really good breedings. JMO. I've watched so called good bird dogs that can't hold a candle to good trial dogs.

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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by kensfishing » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:18 pm

nikegundog wrote:
Running on wild game in natural habitat is the ultimate testing ground to find your best breeding stock.
Is this is the case, why is there no AKC trials in MN,SD,and ND in Dec, Jan, Feb? I'm not a not sure if other orgs. test in these months but I checked the AKC calender for last year and didn't find one event.
Weather and hunting season.

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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by ACooper » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:26 pm

x Bred Pointer wrote:If you buy from field trial stock you are banking on the opinion of several independent judges that have put ch's on that pedigree. If you buy so called "hunting dog" stock you are often taking one man's opinion.
I must have missed this post the first time through...

Excellent post and great reasoning, for people like myself who can't get to as many events as they would like this is important.
Sharon wrote:

PS This is a great topic and I look forward to reading posts from knowledgeable people. I think we are capable of keeping the personal jabs out of it and showing our maturity/restraint. :|
Guess not...
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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by nikegundog » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:27 pm

Weather and hunting season.
MN,and SD season close on Jan 1, I would think that ND would close at about the same date, so wouldn't a trial in early Jan be a good judge of a dogs stamina being they should be at their peak fitness? I would think that weather would also be welcome since during half the hunting season there is snow on the ground. As stated before:
Running on wild game in natural habitat is the ultimate testing ground to find your best breeding stock.

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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by Prairie Hunter » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:43 pm

kensfishing wrote:
Prairie Hunter wrote:Personally, I don’t think there are that many dogs that are great field trial dogs and great hunting dogs, and vice versa. More than likely, they will be great at one and decent at the other. For that reason, if I wanted a great hunting dog, I would select a pup from lines being bred with the primary goal of producing great hunting dogs. If trialing was more important to me, I would select from lines that are bred to trial. I would be looking for something different from each. So, do I think field trial breeders are improving hunting dogs? No I don’t. I think they are improving field trial dogs. And, I think hunting dog breeder improve hunting dogs. Just my opinion.
Theres a problem with this comment. I've seen and heard the comments, I've got a great bird dog, let's breed them. Garbage again. Too much goes into really good breedings. JMO. I've watched so called good bird dogs that can't hold a candle to good trial dogs.
I guess I don't get your point, unless you think all those breeding to get great hunting dogs are breeding haphazardly. Of course, there are some that are, but there are also those that bring a lot of breeding expertise and knowledge of genetics to the table when they breed. The fact is, any time you are breeding without a breeding plan or goal, and have little or no understanding of good breeding practices, you are likely to get poor results, whether you are breeding field trial dogs or hunting dogs. And, to your point, I have hunted behind good trial dogs (AFC & NFC titled) that I would not want as a hunting dog.

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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by Chukar12 » Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:03 pm

This argument comes up often in different forms, based mostly on opinion and emotion...of course that's why Al Gore invented this, so we could make a statement and put "IMO" behind it. Sort of makes the subject tough to argue. "LOL" I kill myself.... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Frivolity aside I think there are a few inarguable facts that must be taken into account for our opinions to be as credible as we would like. First let's examine the number of dogs nationwide out of the pool of sporting dogs that are active in competition...a small percentage right? Then let us examine the marketing behind the dogs for sale, a huge percentage are advertised based on their competitive merits and or lineage v. "Ole Rex...Potter Counties Best Bird Dog, just ask Cletus at the dry goods store." I believe the reason for that is the obvious benefit of recognition that comes from multiple experts that see hundreds or thousands of specimens; with all due respect to Cletus who has seen a couple dozen, and most of them in his private circle.

Furthermore, it is my belief that we are breeding for traits and characteristics and that they are interchangeable with trial and hunting dogs. The training and the skill sets employed can have differences but the traits and characteristics are identical. Field Trial and Competitition dog people are as obsessive about information as an SEC college spots geek, they study all aspects of breeding ( a broad brush statement) and are critical as a group about perpetuating health issues which is better for the breeds.

So...who are the top half dozen or so hunting dog breeders in the country that operate with no advertising, marketing or breeding influence related to competition? How do we know that their dogs are worth buying?

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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by slistoe » Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:10 pm

Prairie Hunter wrote:Personally, I don’t think there are that many dogs that are great field trial dogs and great hunting dogs,
IMO and IME the only thing that keeps a great trial dog from being a great hunting dog is experience. Many great trial dogs simply do not have the time to develop as great hunting dogs, but you can bet that the genes that allowed them to become great trial dogs will increase the odds of their get being great hunting dogs (should they prove prepotent).
Last edited by slistoe on Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by Chukar12 » Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:12 pm

...Dadgummit Slistoe, "IME" that's a goodun

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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by displaced_texan » Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:34 pm

I'll admit I'm far from an expert and don't know everything about everything as some of our members are fortunate enough to...

Does trial venue matter?

I've hunted over several NSTRA dogs, they all made at the least good wild bird dogs...
I have English Pointers because they don't ever grow up either...

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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by Neil » Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:54 pm

I field trial dog does everything a hunting dog does, only better and more of it.

As has already been very well said, an hour field trial brace is a much better indication of a dogs endurance than an all day hunt.

Put a Garmin on them, and you won't have to guess, a good All-Age field trial dog will log nearly 15 miles in an hour, some closer to 20. Most hunting dogs I have checked won't do that in 3 - 4 hours.

Trial dogs start to lose a step at 9, slow some at 10, and need to retire at 11, rarely they make it to 12 and still be competitive. Hunting dogs at their slower pace will have about a year longer in each stage.

Neil

P.S. And before someone brings up the retrieve of the hunting dog as evidence, all dogs will retrieve, heck even cats retrieve.

N

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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by ACooper » Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:06 pm

Neil wrote: Trial dogs start to lose a step at 9, slow some at 10, and need to retire at 11, rarely they make it to 12 and still be competitive. Hunting dogs at their slower pace will have about a year longer in each stage.

N
Hey Neil didn't one of the miller dogs have multiple wins at over 10?

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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by Prairie Hunter » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:45 am

slistoe wrote:
Prairie Hunter wrote:Personally, I don’t think there are that many dogs that are great field trial dogs and great hunting dogs,
IMO and IME the only thing that keeps a great trial dog from being a great hunting dog is experience. Many great trial dogs simply do not have the time to develop as great hunting dogs, but you can bet that the genes that allowed them to become great trial dogs will increase the odds of their get being great hunting dogs (should they prove prepotent).
I agree to an extent. However, it is only true if the trial breeder it focused on keeping the traits in their dogs that are important as a hunting dog, like a strong desire to retrieve, strong desire to track, etc . . . A stable temerament that allows them to stay focused on the task at hand, and since I also do some waterfowling, I want a dog that is also calm enough to sit in a duck blind with me. These are traits that don't come with experience. They must be bred in.

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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by adogslife » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:58 am

Ezzy wrote:
Prey drive has never been in short supply in most dogs of most breeds.
What traits are exhibited in a winning field trial dog that a hunting dog buyer should be looking for?

A dog that slows at 9,10,11.... miles, can we not assume the dog is pacing itself, therefore continuing the course in the most effecient manner, if the dog continues to hunt? Since when is speed an indication of drive and productive search ?


How quickly the drive is elicited and the endurance in the drive is what separates the mediocre from the great.

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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by birddogger » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:01 am

[quoteSo...who are the top half dozen or so hunting dog breeders in the country that operate with no advertising, marketing or breeding influence related to competition? How do we know that their dogs are worth buying?][/quote]

Unless we personally know them and their dogs, we don't. That's why I look at pedigrees and titles when considering a pup.

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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by larue » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:43 am

kenfishing,first off I have put down dogs at boonville at eureka,at the chicken in nebraska,so I do know what it takes to run an hour.
If you read my post,I am not saying an hour dog does not have stamnia,or field trial dogs cannot hunt,or hunting dogs are the best thing since sliced bread.
I was trying to point out that the requirements to produce a great trial dog,do not always match the requirements for a wild bird dog.
I also want to point out that the vast majority of trial dogs do not run in hour events,but 30 minutes,and people who want to win in what they run, breed with that in mind.
So they breed for great style,a snappy animated run,a good nose,and a dog who goes with,it is simple logic. Dogs who consistantly win,get bred to,and to win trials that is what you need.
I have hunted with some fc/afc dogs who win alot in 30 minutes,but who quit after there feet get sore on the 3rd day,and toughness is something that is just not tested in trial dogs in any consistant manner.
even in your vaunted hour stakes.
We also do not test a dogs ability to stand birds off in trials,once again in the vast magority of trials,yet for a hunting dog breeder,this is very high on his requirements.
Once again,it is simple. Hardcore trial breeeders and hardcore hunting dog breeders can b e the same,or thay can be different,as the requirements to excel are slightly different.

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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by slistoe » Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:47 am

adogslife wrote:
A dog that slows at 9,10,11.... miles,
He was talking about years of competitive life.

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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by adogslife » Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:00 am

OOPS,I read that wrong.

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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by ElhewPointer » Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:13 am

This thread is too funny.

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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by dan v » Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:27 am

ElhewPointer wrote:This thread is too funny.
In a "haha" sort of way, or a "odd" sort of way? :mrgreen:
Dan

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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by Dirtysteve » Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:34 am

I have hunted behind good trial dogs (AFC & NFC titled) that I would not want as a hunting dog.
So lets hear the names? Not just a blanket statement. Escpecially the NFC you hunted over.

The trial vs hunting dog debate really shows the lack of experience in one or the other areas

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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by Gordon Guy » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:36 am

Dirtysteve wrote:
I have hunted behind good trial dogs (AFC & NFC titled) that I would not want as a hunting dog.
So lets hear the names? Not just a blanket statement. Escpecially the NFC you hunted over.

The trial vs hunting dog debate really shows the lack of experience in one or the other areas
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder:

I took a pup (1+ year old Gordon) back from an older couple because the dog I sold them was not what they wanted. Three weeks later I won 2 blue ribbons with him at an AKC Trial. He made the hair on the back of my neck stand-up. What is one man's fancy is another man's folly.

I guess to determine if Field Trialing and their dogs has bettered the hunting dog's one would have to agree that the trial dogs are better now than trial dogs were 50 years ago. Then, if that can be agreed upon, the side-effect of that increase in "abilities" of trial dogs would spill over into the hunting dog world. I could have said that better ...but don't know how.
Last edited by Gordon Guy on Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by brad27 » Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:41 am

There sure are a lot of gun dogs posting that think their champions that haven't learned to lift their leg to pee yet.
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What was the name of that dog you put a national on again? :lol:

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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by Gordon Guy » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:20 am

why does it seem that most "pro" field trialers breed to win trials and not to produce hunting dogs?
They breed for trial dogs because that's what they like to do. They like the fire in the eye's, the dog out on the edge where control is just an illusion. A dog that makes the hair on my neck stand-up is grace, and beauty and fire, and desire, and ...so much more. It takes me back 10,000 years. I went to the ballet the other day and while I was watching, (Not because I was bored), I thought of watching one of my dogs way out on the edge, hitting the high points, running to objects, checking the wind, checking back. In my mind the ballet and a great dog performance are close to the same thing, grace in motion.

Not everyone likes the ballet....

Further why are health and structure secondary to performance?
Why would you think that? What evidence do you have to support your statement?
Last edited by Gordon Guy on Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by ACooper » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:28 am

Further why are health and structure secondary to performance?
Why would you think that? What evidence do you have to support your statement?[/quote]


I absolutely could have worded that statement differently but it was made for conversations sake.... I probably should have left health out of my original post. BUT there are dogs around being bred that have bad bites and do not fit the standard for their breed. How about structure? Britts and V's have done an excellent job of getting both field and bench dogs others could take note and follow suit.

How about with Gordons? Is the DC a high priority?

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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:39 am

Toughness is too subjective a word to be credible, stamina and endurance can have metrics applied to them. I have an 11 year old dog that has spent her entire adult life primarily hunting chukars from 4000 feet in elevation up to 10,000 feet in elevation. She is an all day dog who has missed a grand total of 1 hunting day with a sore pad (she hates boots and will go hide and chew them off). I would call her tough and say that she has great stamina, she paces herself. I have occasionally used her in a BDC/Shoot to retrieve formats locally and won with her, when you put her in a 40 acre field and handle her she covers it well. However, if I try and run her with my male who I have conditioned for 1 hour all-age stakes she will burn out. The ground coverage and requirements are not meant for a dog that isn't prepared for it.

A ton of paunchy 40 year old guys play full court men's basketball every day in lunch leagues, but if you asked them to keep pace with a high school, college, or pro team they would fail; they may lack the conditioning but almost assuredly they lack the physical gifts. The original post (that was meant apparently to stir debate) mentions health and structure being secondary to performance, nothing is further from the truth; health and structure are the basis of performance in dog athletes.

An hour is not just an hour, the original post mentions horseback trials specifically; a LOT of ground is covered in an hour on horseback, and a dog that finds birds over a large chunk of geography consistently is something special. In the trials as mentioned their manners and style is judged and by multiple people in the know over time. Furthermore, to win consistently requires a base of knowledge about dogs and training that serves the breeding pool well. A top caliber professional coach can only win with professional caliber players. He or she may not need or have all superstars, they can make average better, but they have to be pro caliber and quality. Why would dogs not be the same? I am a hunter at my core, and it was/has been hard core, as mentioned before I have only been trialing a couple of years now and what I have learned and observed through that experience of those two short years has exceeded the sheltered manner that I learned before over a lifetime, as someone mentioned before me ... an open mind is a valuable thing if your goal is to learn something.

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Re: Field trials and breeding

Post by Greg Jennings » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:42 am

ACooper wrote:Britts and V's have done an excellent job of getting both field and bench dogs others could take note and follow suit.
The Britt folks have machine going that other breeds haven't yet matched.

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