Field trials and breeding

[Gordon Guy]

How about with Gordons? Is the DC a high priority?

Is a DC a priority....No, not at all, Have you ever hunted behind a Gordon that met the AKC Standard? Not my cup of tea...but that's another story for another thread.

Revision: I do have a couple dogs that meet the weight criteria but wouldn't stand a chance in h*** in the ring. But I do look to conformation and I do consider conformation when selecting a stud dog. But the conformation I look for (IMO) would support an actual hunting dog, not a dog that has the "Appearance of a full days work in the field" Appearance of a full days work...What does that look like? :roll:

[ACooper]

How about with Gordons? Is the DC a high priority?

Is a DC a priority....No, not at all, Have you ever hunted behind a Gordon that met the AKC Standard? Not my cup of tea...but that's another story for another thread.

Nope that is exactly why I asked, I have only hunted behind one gordan that was a springset dog, and was nice. For breeds like the setters, pointer etc IMO the gap is too large to ever have a unified breed, and that is too bad.

[ezzy333]

In the longer haired breeds a lot more of that difference you see is in the coat. And that can be managed. But the over all confirmation is a lot closer than most think. Even though they aren't long haired, look what Brenda and Rick have done with their GSP's. They compete in any venue and do their share of winning, and the back ground of their dogs are the same as many of the strictly field trial types. Weims are in the same boat but the few who are willing to accept the challenge of improving the complete dog are able to do it and compete.

I am convinced there is a lot less difference in the "seperation of the breed" than most people try to tell you. Most show types will hunt, though slower, and most field type could win in the show ring with a little more attention paid to confirmation, grooming, and such. It just takes the effort to try.

Ezzy

[Prairie Hunter]

I have hunted behind good trial dogs (AFC & NFC titled) that I would not want as a hunting dog.

So lets hear the names? Not just a blanket statement. Escpecially the NFC you hunted over.

The trial vs hunting dog debate really shows the lack of experience in one or the other areas

I would never name the dogs involved. I am not here to bash anyone's dog. That would show a real lack of class. It is not a blanket statement. I am not applying to all trial dogs. You'll just have to trust me that I did hunt over them, or choose not to trust me. That is up to you.

[Crestonegsp]

Are FTs important to hunting? They are to me because the dogs I hunt over are my FT dogs. My favorite is an AF Championship winner, it sure is funny how that hour AF race turns into an entire day of hunting. I will admit that my second all-time favorite wild quail dog was a Show CH out of a National Speciality Show winner and a MH but I have never had another dog anything like her.

[ACooper]

An hour is not just an hour, the original post mentions horseback trials specifically; a LOT of ground is covered in an hour on horseback

So what is it? Is an hour really 63 minutes in a AF stake?

Just because a vocal few state something as a fact according to them doesn't not make it so. I will concede that experience is not on my side, BUT I posed a question that has yet to be answered if the hour is such a great test of resolve and stamina then why is the national championship three hours?

Lets leave out the you dont know "bleep" comments, I don't really need to prove that further do I?

[Chukar12]

I didn't say you don't know bleep...an hour is sixty minutes always its the "just" part that is misleading. 3 hours is harder but logistically difficult to accomodate. It cannot be explained any better than to tell you that the pace and ground coverage needed to win an hour stake is not common in many dogs. You getting mad and demanding an explanation otherwise will not change the answer

[ACooper]

I didn't say you don't know bleep...an hour is sixty minutes always its the "just" part that is misleading. 3 hours is harder but logistically difficult to accomodate. It cannot be explained any better than to tell you that the pace and ground coverage needed to win an hour stake is not common in many dogs. You getting mad and demanding an explanation otherwise will not change the answer

Mad? These internet discussions are nothing for me to get mad about. I thought I was doing a good job of keeping it light! I thought that was what the smilies did?

Chukar not pointing this at you directly, but many times in discussions like these we get a lot of "because I said and I know more than you type answers" well that isn't always good enough!

[slistoe]

An hour is not just an hour, the original post mentions horseback trials specifically; a LOT of ground is covered in an hour on horseback

So what is it? Is an hour really 63 minutes in a AF stake?

Just because a vocal few state something as a fact according to them doesn't not make it so. I will concede that experience is not on my side, BUT I posed a question that has yet to be answered if the hour is such a great test of resolve and stamina then why is the national championship three hours?

Lets leave out the you dont know "bleep" comments, I don't really need to prove that further do I?

OK, I will humor your absurdity. Because it is THE National Championship.

Really.

[JKP]

What a waste of 1's and O's....would there be any reason not to believe that there might be different styles of FT dogs?....different temperaments?...different people making different breeding choices?....and that as a buyer you would have to do your homework....take your best shot...put down your money...and then work with the pup? I really hate it when we get folks that seem to think that its the majorities responsibility to breed the dog they want. I am sure you will find a diversity of styles in trial dogs as well....so go find the type that's right for you.....don't expect a guarantee....they're not toasters. The single biggest reason that any well bred pup never realizes its potential is the human that owns it.

Will we ever get rid of this senseless discussion based on even dumber assumptions.-

[slistoe]

we get a lot of "because I said and I know more than you type answers" well that isn't always good enough!

Just because I had some time I thought I would look up someone who may be regarded as more qualified than those who have already answered you and you have summarily dismissed as not good enough.

An excerpt from http://www.strideaway.com/strideaway/in ... mpion.html :
Farewell To A Champion
William Smith

There are only so many three-hour heats in any dog. Pete may have been the exception to that rule.

[ACooper]

Great read. Thanks for posting.

99% of the folks that hunt at the plantation probably have no idea about that dog.

[slistoe]

If they have read the promo material they will.
But whether they do or don't, there is a good chance that his blood runs in the veins of the dogs they shoot over. The ones advertised as
"CLASS BIRD DOGS MAKE THE DIFFERENCE
Nowhere will the bird dogs and retrievers give you a bigger thrill! You’ll be hunting over some of the finest bird dogs in the country. Trained and handled by your host, Field Trial Hall of Famer, Colvin Davis, the dogs are all class and superbly trained. Watching these exciting dogs canvas the country then pin point covies is what quail hunting is all about."
And there is also the chance that the dog they will be gunning over is "that dog".

[Tejas]

Toughness is too subjective a word to be credible, stamina and endurance can have metrics applied to them. I have an 11 year old dog that has spent her entire adult life primarily hunting chukars from 4000 feet in elevation up to 10,000 feet in elevation. She is an all day dog who has missed a grand total of 1 hunting day with a sore pad (she hates boots and will go hide and chew them off). I would call her tough and say that she has great stamina, she paces herself. I have occasionally used her in a BDC/Shoot to retrieve formats locally and won with her, when you put her in a 40 acre field and handle her she covers it well. However, if I try and run her with my male who I have conditioned for 1 hour all-age stakes she will burn out. The ground coverage and requirements are not meant for a dog that isn't prepared for it.

A ton of paunchy 40 year old guys play full court men's basketball every day in lunch leagues, but if you asked them to keep pace with a high school, college, or pro team they would fail; they may lack the conditioning but almost assuredly they lack the physical gifts. The original post (that was meant apparently to stir debate) mentions health and structure being secondary to performance, nothing is further from the truth; health and structure are the basis of performance in dog athletes.

An hour is not just an hour, the original post mentions horseback trials specifically; a LOT of ground is covered in an hour on horseback, and a dog that finds birds over a large chunk of geography consistently is something special. In the trials as mentioned their manners and style is judged and by multiple people in the know over time. Furthermore, to win consistently requires a base of knowledge about dogs and training that serves the breeding pool well. A top caliber professional coach can only win with professional caliber players. He or she may not need or have all superstars, they can make average better, but they have to be pro caliber and quality. Why would dogs not be the same? I am a hunter at my core, and it was/has been hard core, as mentioned before I have only been trialing a couple of years now and what I have learned and observed through that experience of those two short years has exceeded the sheltered manner that I learned before over a lifetime, as someone mentioned before me ... an open mind is a valuable thing if your goal is to learn something.

Great post, and not just because your experience closely mirrors mine. I have hunted over dogs for 38 years, but started field trialing only four years ago. Man, have I learned a lot. In addition to your great quote one of my favorites is "one frequently learns more with one's mouth closed and eyes opened.

[Neil]

AC,

The National Championship is 3 hours because it is the extreme test, only those dogs that have proven that they can go an hour in qualifying trials are invited, the best of the best to crown the very best. Few dogs can run for a full 3 hours at field trial speed, in fact, most handlers will tell you each dog only has so many 3 hours runs in them.

We have a few other endurance trials; the Continental, the Invitationals, the SD Endurance, and recently a 2 hour cover dog trial.

Those that have not seen one just do not seem to understand what it takes to run like that, think of it like a human running a marathon at miler speed, few can do it.

It cannot be compared to hunting dog pace, and I have watched a lot of both to make that statement,

Neil

[kbshorthairs]

that's the way to stir up the $#!t Andy!

[northern cajun]

Toughness is too subjective a word to be credible, stamina and endurance can have metrics applied to them. I have an 11 year old dog that has spent her entire adult life primarily hunting chukars from 4000 feet in elevation up to 10,000 feet in elevation. She is an all day dog who has missed a grand total of 1 hunting day with a sore pad (she hates boots and will go hide and chew them off). I would call her tough and say that she has great stamina, she paces herself. I have occasionally used her in a BDC/Shoot to retrieve formats locally and won with her, when you put her in a 40 acre field and handle her she covers it well. However, if I try and run her with my male who I have conditioned for 1 hour all-age stakes she will burn out. The ground coverage and requirements are not meant for a dog that isn't prepared for it.

A ton of paunchy 40 year old guys play full court men's basketball every day in lunch leagues, but if you asked them to keep pace with a high school, college, or pro team they would fail; they may lack the conditioning but almost assuredly they lack the physical gifts. The original post (that was meant apparently to stir debate) mentions health and structure being secondary to performance, nothing is further from the truth; health and structure are the basis of performance in dog athletes.

An hour is not just an hour, the original post mentions horseback trials specifically; a LOT of ground is covered in an hour on horseback, and a dog that finds birds over a large chunk of geography consistently is something special. In the trials as mentioned their manners and style is judged and by multiple people in the know over time. Furthermore, to win consistently requires a base of knowledge about dogs and training that serves the breeding pool well. A top caliber professional coach can only win with professional caliber players. He or she may not need or have all superstars, they can make average better, but they have to be pro caliber and quality. Why would dogs not be the same? I am a hunter at my core, and it was/has been hard core, as mentioned before I have only been trialing a couple of years now and what I have learned and observed through that experience of those two short years has exceeded the sheltered manner that I learned before over a lifetime, as someone mentioned before me ... an open mind is a valuable thing if your goal is to learn something.

+1

[ACooper]

that's the way to stir up the $#!t Andy!

Thanks Karl, glad you can see the humor in all of this!!!! Maybe its our close proximity to one another?

[nikegundog]

Been reading these trialing posts for awhile, the one thing they all have in common is 90% of all of them are talking about speed and endurance that separate the top from the also ran, nothing about nose. When I asked Cleatus up town, how to judge a good hunting dog he said its all in the nose. Cleatus never chased a dog across a field on a horse.

[RayGubernat]

Been reading these trialing posts for awhile, the one thing they all have in common is 90% of all of them are talking about speed and endurance that separate the top from the also ran, nothing about nose. When I asked Cleatus up town, how to judge a good hunting dog he said its all in the nose. Cleatus never chased a dog across a field on a horse.

That's funny...The uptown Cletus I used to know was a coon hunter who had a few beagles that he used to hunt over with a single barrel 12 ga.

He did have a mule, a hard hat, bib overalls and a carbide lantern though.

Nike -

The ability to find birds is a given in a good bird dog. You gotta know that.

RayG

[Grouse Dog Guy]

Been reading these trialing posts for awhile, the one thing they all have in common is 90% of all of them are talking about speed and endurance that separate the top from the also ran, nothing about nose. When I asked Cleatus up town, how to judge a good hunting dog he said its all in the nose. Cleatus never chased a dog across a field on a horse.

Does Cleatus own a dog? What makes Cleatus a dog expert? Does he own a computer?

[slistoe]

Been reading these trialing posts for awhile, the one thing they all have in common is 90% of all of them are talking about speed and endurance that separate the top from the also ran, nothing about nose. When I asked Cleatus up town, how to judge a good hunting dog he said its all in the nose. Cleatus never chased a dog across a field on a horse.

Yeah, when I asked an old time judge about running dogs he said that it really didn't matter what kind of stake it was - derby, walking shooting dog, prairie all age - the dog that runs the hardest, ranges the furthest, AND CAN STILL FIND BIRDS, is the dog that is winning it.
If you can't find birds you have nothing. Nothing times faster is still nothing. Nothing times further is still nothing. Nothing times tail carriage is still nothing.
Are you getting the picture yet?

[Chukar12]

Nike and GDG, you misspelled Cletus, Ray got it correct...

[gittrdonebritts]

Nike and GDG, you misspelled Cletus, Ray got it correct...

How dare the miss spell my fathers name and my last name last name we was Proud to Be Cletus Jasper Cletus III
and I'm Proud to be Named after him Joseph Cletus Cletus

[JKP]

Yeah, when I asked an old time judge about running dogs he said that it really didn't matter what kind of stake it was - derby, walking shooting dog, prairie all age - the dog that runs the hardest, ranges the furthest, AND CAN STILL FIND BIRDS, is the dog that is winning it.
If you can't find birds you have nothing. Nothing times faster is still nothing. Nothing times further is still nothing. Nothing times tail carriage is still nothing.
Are you getting the picture yet?

And yet when you say that...that FT ultimately leads to bigger running dogs and to smaller, lighter boned, sleeker dogs in some breeds....folks get all worked up.

[Chukar12]

by JKP

smaller, lighter boned, sleeker...folks get all worked up

same thing happens if you metion these traits in the GDF Singles Section post

[rschmeider]

Been reading these trialing posts for awhile, the one thing they all have in common is 90% of all of them are talking about speed and endurance that separate the top from the also ran, nothing about nose. When I asked Cleatus up town, how to judge a good hunting dog he said its all in the nose. Cleatus never chased a dog across a field on a horse.

+1 and Cleatus's dog name was Flash. Him and Rossco take it hut'in.

[RayGubernat]

Yeah, when I asked an old time judge about running dogs he said that it really didn't matter what kind of stake it was - derby, walking shooting dog, prairie all age - the dog that runs the hardest, ranges the furthest, AND CAN STILL FIND BIRDS, is the dog that is winning it.
If you can't find birds you have nothing. Nothing times faster is still nothing. Nothing times further is still nothing. Nothing times tail carriage is still nothing.
Are you getting the picture yet?

And yet when you say that...that FT ultimately leads to bigger running dogs and to smaller, lighter boned, sleeker dogs in some breeds....folks get all worked up.

JKP -

You ain't seen any of my dogs or you wouldn't be saying that. They ain't small, they ain't lighter boned and they ain't sleek. Even my 40# older female is built like a tank and she will blow the doors off most dogs half again taller than her. Her baby boy is 65#, has muscles growing out of his ears and could probably tow a small car if I hooked him up to it in harness.

RayG

[RayGubernat]

Considering that I am a certified old fart, the Cletus I am talking about is almost certainly Cletus SENIOR maybe even Grampa Cletus.

RayG

[slistoe]

Yeah, when I asked an old time judge about running dogs he said that it really didn't matter what kind of stake it was - derby, walking shooting dog, prairie all age - the dog that runs the hardest, ranges the furthest, AND CAN STILL FIND BIRDS, is the dog that is winning it.
If you can't find birds you have nothing. Nothing times faster is still nothing. Nothing times further is still nothing. Nothing times tail carriage is still nothing.
Are you getting the picture yet?

And yet when you say that...that FT ultimately leads to bigger running dogs and to smaller, lighter boned, sleeker dogs in some breeds....folks get all worked up.

A few XXXX breed owners get together for a friendly competition. They head to the local preserve and the wager is loser buys supper. The competition - Last dog to the bird wins. If you can beat your dog to the bird you have skunked the field and everyone owes you supper.

That should ensure that competition doesn't RUIN XXXX breed. :roll:

[ElhewPointer]

I love pointers and I feel that this breed has been improved the most by our past breeders. That being said, we have some self proclaimed breeders in the pointer world now that have no idea what they are doing. They are willing to sacrafice quality and healthy animals just to win a trial. They don't care though because if they win a trial from their kennel, they see dollar signs. There are some great breeders too that get it. Erin kennels gets it. If there is a major flaw with a dog Sean will get rid of it. Just as some of the great breeders from the past did. Hopefully some of the wannabes won't do anymore damage to the breed. Trials can be a great measuring stick for dogs, but in the wrong hands, dogs that can win a trial but that has other major issues will still get bred because of the winning ability.