Gun Dog Forum

I was on YouTube this morning and came across this video. To be quite honest I don't know anything about the US Open Pheasant Championships and don't want to offend anyone but man oh man it doesn't seem real safe and looks down right stupid! Did these people not take gun safety? Running with loaded guns....really? Blasting away with no consideration for the dogs or other people around. Looks like theirs no respect/love for the outdoors and/or heritage of hunting. Jeesh!

http://youtu.be/8kKUEEuIAlQ

on first glance there sure did seem to be a lot of running with guns(cant speak to if they are loaded in every shot.) which to the best of my knowledge isn't propper gun safety

Video was definately not a good promo for the sport. Ill leave it at that.

Good Gawd. What a bunch of morons.

What I find to be really sad, is that these people are "High-fiveing" and "Atta-Boying" over shooting birds that can barely fly! Any Jackwagon can plant a bunch of Pen Raised birds in the field and turn their dog loose to find them. Some of those birds were only 4-5 feet off the ground when they shot them. You could see the birds struggling to gain altitutude. :roll:

What I just saw was Garbage. One of these days the way of the real "Wild Birds" are going to be snuffed out by the use and release of pen raised birds. Its just sickening... My friend, who is the head of our KDWP office in this area was talking to me and told me that KDWP (Kansas Dept of Wildlife & Parks) was being changed to KDWP & Tourism. They are releasing a bunch of Pen Raised birds in hopes of drawing in more out of state hunting. :roll:

Why ruin hunting?

Jess 100% there. I didnt like the low shots these fools were making. I wouldnt have taken a few of those shots. I did however like the dog work, the slam on point the retrieve that was kewl but this isnt for me. I hunt, never compete in a hunt. I usally let the other guy shoot (my brother) watching him reminds me of hunting with the Old Man, same style and mount then the shot, he has it down just like Dad.

It looks a lot like BDC (bird dog challenge) and UfTA to me.
All timed events.

The only good thing I can see about this is, they will not be out in the field hunting if they are busy doing this :roll:

I saw a lot of shots i wouldn't have taken for dog safety, wonder how many of those guys shoot there own dog :roll:

All the mentioned events are known as "tournament huunts". The Bird Dog Challenge events are the biggest venue although there are numerous different groups sponsoring these events. Many pay out some decent cash prizes. There are pointing and flushing divisions.

If you are used to well polished bird dogs that are steady to wing and shot, hold point, etc. this game is not for you. Very few of these tournament dogs are "finished dogs". I have participated in some of these events in the past. Although fun, I like the AKC, NSTRA, AF events more. The tournament hunts are all about speed. The best time wins. Although the rules vary somewhat by sanctioning body, it all comes down to time. Pointing breeds are not required to hold point until the bird is flushed and flushing breeds are allowed to "trap" birds (at least in many venues). Although there are great dogs in many of these events and I give kudos to the owners for training and competing these often excellent dogs, I will take a well polished gun dog any day over a tournament dog.

No offense to you tournament hunters, just my opinion. Like I said there are some great tournament dogs out there, many of which also excel in actual hunting.

I think its silly, IMO, the last thing that should be put on a dog to measure its performance is a clock.

I don't like the game at all, that said its a game not a real measure of dog.......

birddog1968 wrote:not a real measure of dog.......

To my way of thinking the only real measure of a dog is weather or not it pleases you the owner JMO.

gittrdonebritts wrote:

birddog1968 wrote:not a real measure of dog.......

To my way of thinking the only real measure of a dog is weather or not it pleases you the owner JMO.

That may well be true for you and many many others, including myself, other folks might think differently , thus why trials exist. Either way speed trials are a game no two ways about it.

Your right Speed trials are a game.

Granted I do not care for some of the stuff in the video and I Use MY FREEDOM OF CHOICE not to participate. But like it or not we do need to support them as much as we need them to support those venues We CHOOSE to enjoy even if it is just hunting with a good ole buddy. If we don't band together it may quickly come where NONE of us will be able to play with our dogs hunting trialing testing etc......

The rules are awefull, you have to actually shot a pheasant, then they make the dog actually retrieve it (thats what gets me), and on top of that the dog with the most finds and retrieves wins. DUMB concept.

nikegundog wrote:The rules are awefull, you have to actually shot a pheasant, then they make the dog actually retrieve it (thats what gets me), and on top of that the dog with the most finds and retrieves wins. DUMB concept.

i like the concept of the venue the one thing i do not care for is the people who are moving with a loaded gun in manner which I feel is very unsafe. but there is good money in those venues for sure

Sorry to be the ahole here but if I lived closer to those events I would darn sure participate. I hear talk of people spending upwards of $10,000 to trial a dog for the season and BDC guys are actually making money. If I lived closer and had a dog that I thought I could win money with then forget the titles and my opinion of whether or not I am bettering the breed. Money talks and BS walks and they pay cash prizes. It is always better to make money than spend money when it comes to dogs. Knock it all you want. I like the venue but I, like many of you, do not like the running with the firearms in hand. I did see many pointing dogs break on the flush bit it looked like most of them pointed the birds and I believe the rules state the dogs have to hold a 3 second point.

It's not for me, but i see the point it makes outdoor TV more exciting kinda like speed shooting and stuff like that. It might grab someones attention to watch the show that would never watch a slow pass bird hunt . If it helps prompt the sport so be it, we need all the help we can get.

nikegundog wrote:The rules are awefull, you have to actually shot a pheasant, then they make the dog actually retrieve it (thats what gets me), and on top of that the dog with the most finds and retrieves wins. DUMB concept.

Funny post.

IMO that doesn't show off my favorite sport by any means. I would prefer it just not get outside attention at all rather than have it portrayed like that.

It seems the theme here on GDF lately is if your not making money at it why do it?? :roll:

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:It seems the theme here on GDF lately is if your not making money at it why do it?? :roll:

Or, if you are making money at it, you are not claiming enough deductions! NO WAY you can make money on gun dogs! Impossible.

Don't forget Bailey, if you are making money at it just tell everyone you do it because you love it and for the betterment of the breed. I love making money and buy from me and you will better the breed with my pups is what I get out of it. :roll:

I love the concept of it pointing retrieving i just don't like that its timed cause running with loaded guns is stupid seen some accidents not pretty, i wouldn't mind making cash though.

Joe I know that it looks bad to kids and adults alike to run with firearms, it's dangerous, but you were in the military so when is the last time you saw someone have a firearms accident while in training or on the battlefield caused by running with a loaded firearm? The chances of someone falling and actually shooting themselves, a dog, a gallery member, judge, cameraman, whatever I am sure is actually very marginal. I am sure it could happen but I have stepped in a badger hole while out hunting and fell and dropped my gun as well. I am not justifying running with a loaded firearm but I am stating that the chances of an accident happening are probably very small.

Check this out. Does it bother everyone that they are running with guns here or is it just that fact that many don't like the venue because it is not their venue of choice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29GGLt1ZT2U

tommyboy72 wrote:Joe I know that it looks bad to kids and adults alike to run with firearms, it's dangerous, but you were in the military so when is the last time you saw someone have a firearms accident while in training or on the battlefield caused by running with a loaded firearm? The chances of someone falling and actually shooting themselves, a dog, a gallery member, judge, cameraman, whatever I am sure is actually very marginal. I am sure it could happen but I have stepped in a badger hole while out hunting and fell and dropped my gun as well. I am not justifying running with a loaded firearm but I am stating that the chances of an accident happening are probably very small.

I've saw more gun accidents while in the Military of course, but a lot of the time we had to run with our weapons loaded( fire fights can be very confusing ) but I saw a few hunting accidents while growing up as we'll, not to mention the time a family friend shot is own leg off while he was fumbling for his shotgun in the cab of his tractor, All I'm getting at is guns are not something to be *&^#!@ around with and any sportsmen should know better than to run with one, I know you wouldn't try and Justify it.

sorry to disagree with those who are against the video, maybe im missing something but it seems the folks in the video are a very good shot, these folks seem obviously very experienced at shooting and im sure are aware of the need to be safe with a firearm..i would bet they are all very educated on gun saftey and its not their first rodeo out there, i liked the video myself, i think it would be a great day of competition...ruth

Didn't see any running with a long gun but the difference is everyone is behind them and they aren't running on ground where they are liable to trip. You are right it isn't particularly dangerous to your self but not realgood for others or dogs in the field.

Either way it is a moot point unless your point is we should not be concerned with running with a loaded gun. Guess we can just admit we always knew that running with a gun or even a knife is just as safe as walking and paying attention to where you are stepping. Good that you pointed out the errors of our ways.

Ezzy

tommyboy72 wrote:Check this out. Does it bother everyone that they are running with guns here or is it just that fact that many don't like the venue because it is not their venue of choice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29GGLt1ZT2U

Tom one thing about those types of shooting events is that 90% if not more of those guys have a Military background, I'm not knocking the sport cause its not my Venue of choice, its because of all the Experience I have with gun handling, and that I wouldn't want to see someone shoot there dog on accident or take unsafe shots just to win some cash if i thought it was more safe I would probably find one near me but I'm very leary about who I hunt with and how there gun handling skills

Just think if someone did trip an shoot there selfs or someone else i bet the TV ratings would sky rocket... just saying

I've been to the BDC and UFTA trials and in the rules; any way the way I read them running is not allowed, so this like so many other trials, is to be judged by the judge!
You really need to go see what it is all about with your own eye's, I personally never seen the danger, that your talking about at the trails I attended.
Now with that said; It is'nt my thing, but neither is AA or Shooting Dog or several other events, they all have thier pro's and con's.

I participated in Shoot - to Retrieve events.

The rules say no running....many take very long strides.

The safety is on until they get to the dog.

You go out in 2's so your life depends upon the other guy's care. Only got almost shot once.

I've stayed out of this as long as I can stand, but I feel I must state my opinion. I've competed in these tournaments.(and did pretty well) Both BDC and the group from Minnesota Horse and Hunt. (the runners) both are quite a bit of fun. I've never seen anyone fall and get shot because of running. They don't always run. Those competing are very safe. Safeties are allowed when an unsafe shot presents itself. It takes a dog that can find birds in a hurry. In BDC the dogs HAVE to retrieve to hand, every time. It is NOT as easy as it looks. YOU need to be a good shot. Basically, if you want to win, you can't miss.

I know a lot of people say that they don't run when hunting. I call BS. Just sayin' . I don't do them anymore because I spend my time and hard earned money on HB/walking trials, as they take a dog that needs to be more stylish and trained to a higher level of steadiness. I'm more into the dogs than the killing, as I get older. (and wiser, I think)

I will say this, as far as taking a dog foot hunting, I saw WAY more dogs that I would want to foot hunt with in the BDC type trials than I do in the broke dog stuff. I don't hunt my Ft dogs broke unless I'm working on one that needs it. It doesn't take that much to get them back to broke if they slide a bit. I have seen National Champions chase birds like puppies. If you know your gun safety and use your head, then I don't see anything wrong with running when you need to.

Let the arrows fly.... I really don't care. Like others have said, we all need to support each other, or the anti's will win.

Don't like it....Don't do it. But, please don't slam it!

Doug

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:I know a lot of people say that they don't run when hunting. I call BS. Just sayin' .

I've run while hunting so many times that I can't even count, sometimes it happens and I don't even realize it. Is it safe? Nope. Does it happen? Yep.

I ran a million NSTRA Trials, no running...But I cannot count the times I have fallen...When walking as fast as you can to a dog on point it is easy....The accidents have not been from that, but someone taking an unsafe shot. I have heard of this alot in the UFTA, as it saves time to kill the bird so dog is not chasing the bird all over for a retrieve...NSTRA has an auto safty for unsafe shot and a no running rule.

Sharon wrote:The safety is on until they get to the dog.

I know I've shot and forgotten to put the safety back on many times Just saying we are only humane mistakes happen.

ACooper wrote:

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:I know a lot of people say that they don't run when hunting. I call BS. Just sayin' .

I've run while hunting so many times that I can't even count, sometimes it happens and I don't even realize it. Is it safe? Nope. Does it happen? Yep.

I know who I'm not going hunting with

UFTA has rules against running, just as NSTRA does. I have ran both and truely enjoy both. They are pretty similar in quality of dogs, even though both groups can point out dogs that are good for one, but not the other. The good dogs in each could be competitve in the other. The good handlers are competitve in either as well.
I do wish that the other organizations would have rules against running. I will not debate how safe running is, but the people that watch it on TV and the antis will think it is not safe. For that reason alone, I think it should be stopped.
But, I love running UFTA trials. The "run and gun" type of trials is fun. Good dogs are good dogs regardless of venue. Good handlers are good handlers regardless of venue. Dogs have to be trained forthe venue you want to participate in. Good trainers can help you get them ready for that. BUT, in UFTA, you had better be able to hold up your end of the bargain too. You need to be able to shoot.
In both UFTA and in NSTRA you have safeties so you do not need to take a bad shot. It would be a bad thing in either if you can not call your dog off of a missed bird. It will cost you in both. In UFTA it will cost you time and points. In NSTRA your dog would be wasting time on an out of bounds or marked bird while the bracemate is out finding birds.
I just wish everybody would wake up and see that in the grand scheme of things we are all good for each other. We are out there promoting a dieing sport. We need to be channeling this energy to bringing in new blood, and getting young people involved. When we bash another venue we are hurting ourselves. There aren't enough of us out there anymore.

Like I said BDC, UFTA <NUCS, all have rules against running; The Judges need be more strict in enforcement, in my opinion. JMO.

gittrdonebritts wrote:

ACooper wrote:

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:I know a lot of people say that they don't run when hunting. I call BS. Just sayin' .

I've run while hunting so many times that I can't even count, sometimes it happens and I don't even realize it. Is it safe? Nope. Does it happen? Yep.

I know who I'm not going hunting with

....ruth

ACooper wrote:

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:I know a lot of people say that they don't run when hunting. I call BS. Just sayin' .

I've run while hunting so many times that I can't even count, sometimes it happens and I don't even realize it. Is it safe? Nope. Does it happen? Yep.

Anyone who has hunted pheasants has run at one time or another. Jogging at least, not really running.

Birddogz wrote:

ACooper wrote:

Ricky Ticky Shorthairs wrote:I know a lot of people say that they don't run when hunting. I call BS. Just sayin' .

I've run while hunting so many times that I can't even count, sometimes it happens and I don't even realize it. Is it safe? Nope. Does it happen? Yep.

Anyone who has hunted pheasants has run at one time or another. Jogging at least, not really running.

You betcha...but there is a safe way to do it. My Pop taught it to me and kinda insisted I do it his way.

You throw the magazine lock lever on your A-5, pull back the bolt and the chamber is now empty with the bolt locked open. Takes all of about a second and that includes putting the shell in your pocket.. THEN you do your very best Jesse Owens imitation with your shotgun at port arms. When you get to where you need to be, you throw the magazine lock lever, the next round in the magazine automatically chambers and you are ready to rock and roll.

If you don't have an A-5... deal with it.

RayG

Is it safe? Nope. Does it happen? Yep.[/quote]

Anyone who has hunted pheasants has run at one time or another. Jogging at least, not really running.[/quote]

You betcha...but there is a safe way to do it. My Pop taught it to me and kinda insisted I do it his way.

You throw the magazine lock lever on your A-5, pull back the bolt and the chamber is now empty with the bolt locked open. Takes all of about a second and that includes putting the shell in your pocket.. THEN you do your very best Jesse Owens imitation with your shotgun at port arms. When you get to where you need to be, you throw the magazine lock lever, the next round in the magazine automatically chambers and you are ready to rock and roll.

If you don't have an A-5... deal with it.

RayG[/quote]

That sounds like a good tactic. The only thing that can be a pain in the butt is stepping in a badger hole while hoofing it up to a point.

gittrdonebritts wrote:I love the concept of it pointing retrieving i just don't like that its timed cause running with loaded guns is stupid seen some accidents not pretty, i wouldn't mind making cash though.

Anyone who has ever been on the business end of a gun realizes REAL quick that they wished they hadn't been... Trust me.

Well, would you play that video to a bunch of kids at a hunters safety coarse? Don't think so, but we all know that there are kids watching it on TV.

Very simple way to fix it. You run with the gun, DQ or big time penalty. You take an unsafe shot for a dog or person same deal.

I am sure that it is fun and exciting to run. But what I saw in that video, was not what should be taught to kids, or done by responsible adults. JMO

prairiefirepointers wrote:

gittrdonebritts wrote:I love the concept of it pointing retrieving i just don't like that its timed cause running with loaded guns is stupid seen some accidents not pretty, i wouldn't mind making cash though.

Anyone who has ever been on the business end of a gun realizes REAL quick that they wished they hadn't been... Trust me.

Amen to that !

I watched a dog get shot in a BDC event, a golden retriever chasing a low flying bird, it lived, however I know of at least one that was killed. There are those of you that have experessed you "must" run while hunting, I disagree. As a kid and probably early on as a young man I am sure that I did; however, I realize now that there is no reason to add risk for the sake of "getting a shot." The barrier to entry in these events is low and they are far more appealing to the masses than some of the other venues. I believe they are good for the sporting dog world, however the rules should be enforced, running with a gun; a dog on the ground, a partner and two judges in a field is just silly.

Anti hunters are what they are; there is no changing their mind anymore than there is changing one of us on our pro stance. The danger here is in presenting something to non-hunters (not anti...non) that defies the rules of common sense or what a person of reasonable judgement would consider in poor taste by current cultural standards. I will continue to support the events with my attendance and by entering one of my hunting dogs on weekends that are out of season for me; but I will remain vocal that adding an element of danger to a risky endeavor in a group of varying degrees of experience and mindset is a bad idea and defending it is a large part of the problem rather than the solution.

Seems to me there trials are for people that are mostly weekend hunters, whats wrong with that? No weekend hunter cares if his dog breaks after flush, they care about the dog finding the bird, pointing (or flushing) and retrieving back to him. And what weekend hunter hasn't run with a gun? REALLY, we all have!