Price of pups to turn a profit?

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nikegundog
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Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by nikegundog » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:47 pm

What does the price point need to be to turn a profit on a litter on average? Whats the average litter around 8? $500 a pup would be $4000, $300 would be $2400. Sounds like its profitable yet I hear all the time there is no money in it. I've had one litter 12 years ago (accidental,nieghbors dog jumped in a 7' kennel), whelping box was 6 hay bales in the barn, bitch did everything except the shots and kids did socialzation everyday. If I did this for a business I can think of 100 deductions that I would have had in this litter to turn a $5000 profit into a $5000 loss. I think my vet bill was minimal, however I don't recall the exact amount, and the food was less than $50. I want to say that I have nothing against what people get for a pup, I just want to know why people aren't making money on it. So how much cash does it take to make a litter profittable?

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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by LincolnAlexander » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:58 pm

New to the board (hi by the way) but from my discussion with several great breeders it is often not the cost of the actual breeding (though it can add up) but the cost of the work to train and prove your dog before it is bred.

Birds, gas, travel, testing/trialing, etc, etc, etc adds up to a huge amount, and the majority of any money made on a litter is put back into the dogs.
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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by Cajun Casey » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:07 pm

At a conservative cost of $25/month to maintain a dog, I have $1200 in the mother and $450 in the father of the last litter I had. He is a really nice young dog, so he's with a trainer, and that adds up to $3000 so far. I spend at least $50 on each pup by the age of ten weeks, so that was $300. I sold the three pups that I let go for $200 each to customers from work. Even if I had sold all of them for double that amount and wasn't paying to break their daddy, I'd be nearly in the red by the end of this year on the deal by feeding their parents.
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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by ultracarry » Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:07 pm

Depends on how much you have into the dog you are breeding. Dogs with no certs., titles, etc are way more profitable to breed. Do they make the breed better? Umm I would say probably not.

Take in training, birds, entry fees, training equipment and travel expenses and you figure out pretty quick you will never make money off of a bitch you decide to breed unless you are willing to turn the dog into a brood bitch. But you have soo much money, time, etc into the dog you might as well compete.

I think to break even I would need around 30-40 pups at 500.00 to get close to even.

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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by nikegundog » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:03 am

At a conservative cost of $25/month to maintain a dog, I have $1200 in the mother and $450 in the father of the last litter I had. He is a really nice young dog, so he's with a trainer, and that adds up to $3000 so far. I spend at least $50 on each pup by the age of ten weeks, so that was $300. I sold the three pups that I let go for $200 each to customers from work. Even if I had sold all of them for double that amount and wasn't paying to break their daddy, I'd be nearly in the red by the end of this year on the deal by feeding their parents.
Thats what I was talking about with expenses, you listed $3000 in expenses that some of us pay everyday. So what you might see after one litter as a $1000 loss, I see as a $2000 profit. Then I look at a recent litter on this forum, $800m/$950f, no pedigree listed and no gaurantee, 9 pups. That would be an approx. $8000 litter -stud fee. Looks like the guy might put over $7000 in his pocket, I see $$$. My neighbor is a farmer and drives a $40K pickup, his wife drive a 30K pickup that 70k in expenses that have never been in a field because be has a 10k ranger and a $500 beater for farm work. So from a business perspective I can see why some people see a loss where I see a profit.

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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by birddogger » Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:15 am

I am hearing about the expense of keeping, training, and the cost of competing the bitch and/or male dog. I don't see how this figures in on whether or how much profit you make on a litter. You have these expenses whether or not you decide to breed. I think a pretty decent profit can be made on a well bred litter unless something goes wrong that runs up vet bills. BTW, I have nothing against a breeder making a profit and as far as the asking price goes, it is just what the market will bare. I guess if a person builds a house on his own, saving a ton of money, and turns around and sells it at market value, he could claim he didn't make a profit because of all the time he put into it. I guess it is all in how you look at it.

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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:15 am

Profit comes in many forms....bankable being but one.
Dog breeders vary as much as dogs do....as do customers and billfolds.

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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by larue » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:24 am

my last litter worked out like this,
950 to ship bitch to be bred(both ways)
100 for crate to ship,plus health cert
250 in prewhelping vet costs,included ultrasonds,xrays.
600 in whelping costs,vet due to complications.
200 in post vet visits for bitch.
150 in vet costs for tails,dew claws
150 in vet for shots,exams for puppies.
400 in shipping pup for stud fee,
pup for stud fee
two days of work missed,say 400 gross
this does not count gas to and from airports,300 miles at least,or dog food,or even begin to touch the cost of birds,trials,horse stuff,ect.
I kept two females,and sold one male.
so I made 600 to offset over 3100 in costs,which is more like if I count driving costs and dog food
so,,if I had purchased the two pups,I would have paid 1250 each .
On the other hand,I am extremely happy with what I have in the two pups,they are doing great,everything I had hoped for.

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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by birddogger » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:00 am

Wow, I am surprised anybody ever breeds dogs. :mrgreen:

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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by dan v » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:33 am

Larue's experience mirrors ours. Maybe not the same extent for travel expenses however.

Here's how one of our breedings went. We're good friends of a gentleman on the east coast. We liked his female and arrange to lease her. John agrees to lease to us, at no charge. Yeah! Right? So we pay for John to get her to the vet for a health cert. $40, the plane ride to Mpls. $400 We are planning to use semen from one of our deceased males....ie: a frozen semen breeding. So we own the semen. We bring her to the vet to get a baseline progesterone level.....55 miles one way. The vet runs the test in house...says he'd like to test every day going forward as he thinks she's pretty close to being ready. Now recall the 110 mile R/T...so we leave her at the vet for a couple days. The vet does the surgical insemination...that with the boarding and a couple other things is like $800. We wait it out for 30 days or so. Bring her back for a ultrasound...110 miles R/T + the vet costs for that day...maybe another $100.

Looks like no puppies, but we keep her for another 30 days. Nope no puppies. We fly her back 120 miles R/T to the airport and $400 to fly her back. That was like $1400 for no puppies.

Now let's say she did have a litter. There would have been dewclaws to come off and then a few weeks later the first round of shots. We like to run a little puppy program here. So that means a hundred or so bobwhite at $4/ea. It takes an enormous amount of time to raise a litter, and if your time isn't worth anything I guess it don't cost nothing.

I suppose you could make some money if you bred "Ready x Handy" whelped them, let mom raise them in the barn, left the dews on, did the first round of shots yourself and moved them at the 49th day.
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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by kninebirddog » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:57 am

Stud Fee 1000.00
Brucelosis test 60.00

Proving bitch is even worth breeding ..Training and on going training I train my own dogs but I still have my time and birds invested

Trials

OFA Thankfully this is once but still 130.00.

AKC registration and FDSB plus nominating litter for the futurities

Docks Dews and vaccinations D-wormings.

This doesn't include if there are any complications

Sure it brings in some income so I can raise the pups I keep and also help pay for some fuel and entry fees to go to more trials

Advertising is by exposure and pay for some of the internet costs and stuff I have to do to even sell my pups. Not sure what the news paper advertising costs since I haven't advertised a litter in the paper in over 10 years
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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by LincolnAlexander » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:04 am

birddogger wrote:I am hearing about the expense of keeping, training, and the cost of competing the bitch and/or male dog. I don't see how this figures in on whether or how much profit you make on a litter. You have these expenses whether or not you decide to breed.
This is true to an extent, however the cost of putting a UT, VC , FC, MH, etc is significantly more expensive then keeping a dog strictly for hunting sake. You don't have to put titles on a dog, especially the upper level ones, and it is usually done to prove the dog for the sake of breeding. Initial start up (registering kennel names, buying whelping stuff, health testing the dog) can also add up to a significant amount, though it is a non-repeatable cost. Also travel to use the stud if he is a significant distance away can add up (especially with gas prices now :( .)
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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by baileydog2007 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:10 am

Counting the price of the female and the sire??? That shouldnt count, we all buy dogs, if you chose to breed, count expenses related to having pups, not owning a dog. If I have a litter should I count my mortgage cuz the dog lives in the house most of the time?? "Breeders" will stop at nothing to show they dont make any money. I have had 3 litters of labs. I bought my female for 1500.00 (I DONT count that cost against the litter, I bought a dog, not a puppy machine). I paid 1000.00 for the stud fee, travel to sire for breeding, and all "normal" vet bills that go along with a litter of pups. I NEVER lost money on any of the 3 litters, ever. I sold pups for 800.00, except the one I gave to a friend and one to my sister, from different litters. She had one smaller litter of 5, and only made a little, but didnt lose anything. IF breeders constantly lose money, they are either counting every single cost associated with owning a dog, weather its bred or not, or they are terrible business people.

Do breeders count the trialing/training of the sire and dam??? Feeding the sire/dam, vet bills for the sire/dam? If so, I can see losing money, but they are separate IMO. If someone cant breed a female, and raise a litter of pups, without taking a loss, they dont know what they are doing IMO. Now, if they want to have a litter of pups, pay for the sire, the dam, years of training, all equiptment "dog" related, all of the trialing/testing fees and equiptment, and every hunting trip, ya, you probably gonna be in the red.

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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:28 am

Boy no wonder everyone is breeding dogs everyone is making money!! Does anyone figure the cost of the kennel,food,abnormal vet bills,yes stud fees.Yes all of these would be write offs if it was run like a busines.Have any of you ever had most of a litter for a yr or longer before selling them all? I think most are out of touch as how a business would be run.Yeah if your just breeding to make money it can be done & it's called a PUPPY MIL!! :roll:

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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by baileydog2007 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:38 am

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Boy no wonder everyone is breeding dogs everyone is making money!! Does anyone figure the cost of the kennel,food,abnormal vet bills,yes stud fees.Yes all of these would be write offs if it was run like a busines.Have any of you ever had most of a litter for a yr or longer before selling them all? I think most are out of touch as how a business would be run.Yeah if your just breeding to make money it can be done & it's called a PUPPY MIL!! :roll:

And if you are still "stuck" with part of a litter for a year, probably best to not breed if you are actually trying to make money. Breed to make the breed better, certainly, but why breed if you cant sell them, then complain you cant sell them and dont make any money??? Like any business, everyone isnt making money, just the good ones are, like in any business. The most reputable breeders know when to breed, and the pups are often spoken for before they hit the ground or soon there after. Supply and demand, IF you are producing pups that take a year to sell, thats just plain bad business. I, myself, would not have a litter unless I knew a certain amount of the pups were sold, UNLESS I was doing the breeding for myself, in which case it would be niave to think you'd make a profit.

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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by LincolnAlexander » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:06 am

baileydog2007 wrote:"Breeders" will stop at nothing to show they dont make any money.
I think that is a rather sweeping statement :), lol. I agree that items that we would do regardless (I.e. buying the dog, feeding the dog, hunting with the dog :lol: ) should not be counted towards expenses associated with a litter. However if testing/trialing a dog (or getting health testing done) it is to prove the dog and show it would better the breed. Personal opinion that things that are done for the purpose of breeding should be included in your costs :). If you think about the costs associated with these thing you can see why often there is not a lot of money to be made.
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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by prairiefirepointers » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:07 am

IF you don't have your own Studs AND Broods, and take the dogs to the vet for unnecessary things then you are going to incur additional costs.

I will say in the area of complications you have to go to the vet, but for shots and such? Come on.... DIY and quit wasting money.
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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by baileydog2007 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:13 am

prairiefirepointers wrote:IF you don't have your own Studs AND Broods, and take the dogs to the vet for unnecessary things then you are going to incur additional costs.

I will say in the area of complications you have to go to the vet, but for shots and such? Come on.... DIY and quit wasting money.

Exactly. Dews and most things can be done yourself. Its just smart business. I bet you make money doing it too! :wink:

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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by MillerClemsonHD » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:33 am

If the goal of breeding was only to make money and run it as a pure business, then breeders would be breeding designer mutts since that is what brings in big money.

If you think a couple hundred dollars left after all expenses are paid is really effort after the hours put in then go right ahead and get your breeding business going. There are much easier ways to make the same amount of money in with a lot less time and effort.

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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by baileydog2007 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:21 am

MillerClemsonHD wrote:If the goal of breeding was only to make money and run it as a pure business, then breeders would be breeding designer mutts since that is what brings in big money.

If you think a couple hundred dollars left after all expenses are paid is really effort after the hours put in then go right ahead and get your breeding business going. There are much easier ways to make the same amount of money in with a lot less time and effort.
Not sure anyone said the ONLY goal was to make money. However, if someone is doing it like a hobby, dont expect to make money. And, IF you want to make money, it HAS to be treated like a business. Businesses rely on supply and demand, all of them. If someone is breeding dogs, and losing money or having to keep half of the litter for a year, Id question the reason for the breeding? If it was for themselves, why would they expect to make a profit? If it was for the purpose of making money, Id question the way they handled the breeding? Unforseen things can happen when having a litter, small litter, dam is new mom and lose some pups, disease, ect. But if someone says "Well, the dogs in heat and she is a good dog, gonna get her bred" and thats the plan, I can see why they'd have some of em for a year.

As far as ways to make more money with less time and effort, Im sure that correct. I only know 2 actaul breeders, both make more than I do at my job, and they admit it. Is it work? You betcha. But to say one cant make money at it is absurd. Now, certainly not EVERYONE can make money at it, as this site can prove, apparently only 1 breeder on here is smart enough to do it right and make money at it. Lol.

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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by nikegundog » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:27 am

I see how some of the expenses are adding up, especially if things don't go well. I have a few questions.
Do most breeders have ultrasounds done?
What is the cost of a typical stud fee? (not including shipping, pick-up,etc.)
What is the cost of shots for pups at 8 weeks?

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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by baileydog2007 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:33 am

nikegundog wrote:I see how some of the expenses are adding up, especially if things don't go well. I have a few questions.
Do most breeders have ultrasounds done?
What is the cost of a typical stud fee? (not including shipping, pick-up,etc.)
What is the cost of shots for pups at 8 weeks?

Ultrasounds, IMO=waste of money.
Stud fees depend on the stud you use obviously, average, maybe 500.00. Range, 350-2000.
Vet visit plus shots/wormer, depending on litter size of course 150-300 depending on vet. Can also do yourself with a little research
Dew claws=about 6.00 a pup, but can EASILY be done yourself.

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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by LincolnAlexander » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:53 am

baileydog2007 wrote: As far as ways to make more money with less time and effort, Im sure that correct. I only know 2 actaul breeders, both make more than I do at my job, and they admit it. Is it work? You betcha. But to say one cant make money at it is absurd. Now, certainly not EVERYONE can make money at it, as this site can prove, apparently only 1 breeder on here is smart enough to do it right and make money at it. Lol.
The question asked wasn't "can you make money at it" but why many don't make money at it. There are many ways you 'could' make money, but for many it is a hobby, they are looking to improve the breed, don't have a ton of litters, and spend a ton of money proving that their dogs are indeed an improvement.

Interesting discussion.
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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by oakcreek » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:14 am

here can be money in it, you can also lose your a**. I have had some really good years when I was strictly breeding labradors. I decided to start breeding Pointers and there that went. I have bred to some great CH's and been stuck with 3 pups at $600 a pup. I bred to Nella's Running tab last year, the litter cost me around $1700 to get on the ground. I still have two pups in my kennel (had three last month) , and one of those is going north with Randy Anderson. Hopefully they both will be sold before hunting season.

My wife has all but begged me to get rid of the dogs, but regardless of money made or lost if you have a desire to breed bird dogs you just do. If you have a desire to breed the best for what you want, then you just do. Sometimes you make money, sometimes you don't. If I just bred labs I would make twice the money, but there's just something about a little pointer pup finding his legs, and snapping his tail.

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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by baileydog2007 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:42 am

LincolnAlexander wrote:
baileydog2007 wrote: As far as ways to make more money with less time and effort, Im sure that correct. I only know 2 actaul breeders, both make more than I do at my job, and they admit it. Is it work? You betcha. But to say one cant make money at it is absurd. Now, certainly not EVERYONE can make money at it, as this site can prove, apparently only 1 breeder on here is smart enough to do it right and make money at it. Lol.
The question asked wasn't "can you make money at it" but why many don't make money at it. There are many ways you 'could' make money, but for many it is a hobby, they are looking to improve the breed, don't have a ton of litters, and spend a ton of money proving that their dogs are indeed an improvement.

Interesting discussion.
It is an interesting discussion. My main area of disagreement in this isnt the real "breeders". For them (most of them), its their job, like any small business, survival of the fittest. Some do well, others dont. Its like any other business, the ones who are good at it, make money, those who are not good at it, dont. The difference I see are the people who work a full time job, then also train/trial/breed, and in doing so, its more of a hobby than a business, yet they expect their hobby to be profitable. That just doesnt make sense. Hobbies cost money. And the extent of what is included in the cost of the litter to call it profitable?? Training of the sire and dam, shouldnt be. If they didnt intend on breeding them, they wouldnt train them, feed them, or have vet expenses??? No, all those expenses should still be there, breeding or not.

My guess as to why those who raise litters dont make any money, simply they dont know what they are doing. Weather they dont understand supply and demand, dont know how to plan and have a purpose for the litter, or just think everything "dog" should come off the litter revenue to call it profitable. With my dog, I would train her, feed her, hunt her, test her, and vaccinate her, reguardless of breeding her or not, so I dont count those expenses against a litter, they were all costs associted with my hobby as a dog owner. Weekenders vs pro's is apples vs oranges IMO.

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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:22 am

Ok your running a business,then every penny you spend on the dogs is a write off food,kennel,vets,equipment,you name it.Now here is the BIG question how many of you making money are paying TAXES on it?
I'm not running a business I do it because I love doing it & I don't breed to just a dog next door,my breedings are well thought out & planned.I have had as much as $2000 in a breeding before I even knew I was going to have pups.I give my own shots,meds,etc more then most & only see vets for emergencies or things I can't take care of.If I were a business & would have asked the Gov't for a bailout.
If I were doing it to make money I would breed to any stud,not worry about all Vacs,health,not worry about where they went or any unsatified clients etc.in other words a PUPPY MILL.
Yes there are some reputable breeders that make money & well they should but those are few & far between & they don't make as much as some might think.

I'm happy if I break even.I breed mostly for my own pleasure & enjoyment & hopefully tp produce some very nice dogs which I HAVE!! :D

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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by nikegundog » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:39 am

The PUPPY MILL comment keeps getting thrown around a lot. I was just thinking that one doesn't have to cut corners but to use a little business sense. Some people are mentioning shipping studs across the country and paying large stud fees and I can see how quickly that would add up. I think if someone had a great female it might not be that difficult to find a great stud dog with the characteristics that I wanted without spending a fortune on them. If I chose to budget $1000 for my stud and did my search on that, I wouldn't call myself a puppy mill. How much investment to one have to make to lose that label? $1500-$2000? Is everyone turning a profit a Puppy Mill? I always thought that label was referring to the kennel with 20 bitches pumping out different breeds as fast as they can.

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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by tommyboy72 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:51 am

Just for the fact you call the people who buy your dog clients I can tell you run it like a business and are in it to make money.

Sounds like everyone who wants to breed dogs should just outsource to India or Mexico and maybe they could make a little money.

With all the costs that are being mentioned on here as incurred costs it turns my stomach. Just like most U.S. businesses in this country today, everyone wants to write it off or even worse pass it on to a buyer. Whatever happened to the saying, "That is just the cost of being in this business."? Many of you say you do it because you love it so much, then why charge such high prices for your pups, why speak of passing costs on to buyers, why talk about running it like a business, why talk about writing it off, why not factor in your electric, gas, and water bills while you are whelping pups to help offset those while the dam is in the house or an enclosed area. Give me a break. The real reason you guys are keeping pups till after they are a year old is to start them and make more on a dog who while they may be started is far from being a huntable dog. It is all marketing. Advertise something really well now and then withhold it from the public for a year and you can drive the price of it up, businesses do it all the time. I fault no one for wanting to make money but at least be honest about it.

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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by LincolnAlexander » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:00 pm

baileydog2007 wrote:The difference I see are the people who work a full time job, then also train/trial/breed, and in doing so, its more of a hobby than a business, yet they expect their hobby to be profitable. That just doesnt make sense. Hobbies cost money. And the extent of what is included in the cost of the litter to call it profitable?? Training of the sire and dam, shouldnt be. If they didnt intend on breeding them, they wouldnt train them, feed them, or have vet expenses??? No, all those expenses should still be there, breeding or not.
I have a better understanding of what you mean here. Those in my area who are breeding hunting dogs also work full time, we don't really have any large scale operations for hunting dogs that I am aware of (but I really only look at Versatiles as opposed to other types.) I don't think any of them expect to make money at their breeding (when I say this I mean yes they might make money on a litter but it only offsets previous expenses or goes back into the dogs.)

I agree with some of what you saying around what costs should be included, costs like feeding/vet visits are costs you would have anyway. Training is subjective... when I say that I mean that there may be a difference in training a dog to adequately hunt vs training a dog to perform to high level testing or trialing venues. I don't know of many who do Hips/elbows/Thyroid/Eye/etc health testing if they have no intent of breeding. The breeders I know typically do testing to prove their dogs, I don't know that they would if they had no intent to breed them.
baileydog2007 wrote: My guess as to why those who raise litters dont make any money, simply they dont know what they are doing. Weather they dont understand supply and demand, dont know how to plan and have a purpose for the litter, or just think everything "dog" should come off the litter revenue to call it profitable. With my dog, I would train her, feed her, hunt her, test her, and vaccinate her, reguardless of breeding her or not, so I dont count those expenses against a litter, they were all costs associted with my hobby as a dog owner. Weekenders vs pro's is apples vs oranges IMO.
So it is subjective based on what costs you are assuming go against the litter. If person A assumes $15k in training to obtain a VC or FC and person B says 'I don't count that' there is going to be a difference in what amount of money they assume they are making off the litter.

I am a little confused about Weekenders vs Pro's when it comes to breeding... if person A is a weekender and has a VC, AFC, MH and a breeding plan, what makes him less of a breeder then person B the pro with the same dog? Quantity? If you mean it is just two different worlds, I agree :).
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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by baileydog2007 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:03 pm

tommyboy72 wrote:Just for the fact you call the people who buy your dog clients I can tell you run it like a business and are in it to make money.

Sounds like everyone who wants to breed dogs should just outsource to India or Mexico and maybe they could make a little money.

With all the costs that are being mentioned on here as incurred costs it turns my stomach. Just like most U.S. businesses in this country today, everyone wants to write it off or even worse pass it on to a buyer. Whatever happened to the saying, "That is just the cost of being in this business."? Many of you say you do it because you love it so much, then why charge such high prices for your pups, why speak of passing costs on to buyers, why talk about running it like a business, why talk about writing it off, why not factor in your electric, gas, and water bills while you are whelping pups to help offset those while the dam is in the house or an enclosed area. Give me a break. The real reason you guys are keeping pups till after they are a year old is to start them and make more on a dog who while they may be started is far from being a huntable dog. It is all marketing. Advertise something really well now and then withhold it from the public for a year and you can drive the price of it up, businesses do it all the time. I fault no one for wanting to make money but at least be honest about it.

I agree with most of that. Any "breeder" who has clients and would be "happy" to break even, needs to take business 101. Bottom line is simple, if someone wants to breed a dog and have a litter (obviously for good reason, sound breeding), they do their homework, and dont expect to get rich or pay for everything ever associated with said dog, you should make a little money. Now, as I said, if the breeding is because the owner wants a pup (which is common and totally understandable) they shouldnt expect to make any money. Common business sense goes a long ways.

IF someone has to sell 8 pups for 1500.00 a pup to break even, they are truely clueless IMO!

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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:16 pm

Tommy I am not a business but that's how a business stays out of the RED they write off every deduction possible & that is good business so I'm just wondering how many of these so called businesses are paying taxes.
There are very few people that make a living off of just breeding & selling dogs unless they are a puppy mill.Like I said there are reputable breeders making money but they are not making a living at it with out doing other dog related business like training,boarding,handling.grooming,selling dog related products etc.

Nike if you are trying to breed to better the breed or for a specific reason cost of stud fee & his whear abouts should not enter the equation in my mind.Now if I'm trying to make a profit that's a different story.

This all reminds me of people I have heard say $500 a puppy you have 6 pups that's $3000 look at all the money your making,never once thinking about the housing & feeding & keeping them healthy etc.
I have a friend that asked me how much money I make on a litter,then he proceeds to tell me I bred my golden retriever female to a neighbors male & sold all the pups for $800 each as pets.Never once did he mentioned registering them,giving shots,what he fed them or who he sold to only the money he made.Oh & no stud fee now that's the way to breed & sell pups for a profit.

I want no part of it but to each their own.

The WORD client bothers you, you can replace it with customer,buyer,owner,what ever you choose what's the difference? I used cleint because I have repeat BUYERS & some on this board that will atest to me breeding some pretty nice dogs across the country.
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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by markj » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:26 pm

Ha ha, you guys should see what Dad spent on his race horses every year, the stud fees were as much as 20,000.00 :) most were 10 grand. Then transport to Kentucky and back, plus 12 a day till birth, then reg it with the jockey club so it could be raced.... but I did get to meet some fine people.

There is money in breeding if you do it right. I dont but there are some that do, but they also train, board just about everything dog related. They do it because they love it, them folks cant work a 8-5 type job and be happy.

Why just go and pick up a book by C.Bede Maxwell and read up on how it once was in the shorthair world.
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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by prairiefirepointers » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:36 pm

nikegundog wrote:I see how some of the expenses are adding up, especially if things don't go well. I have a few questions.
Do most breeders have ultrasounds done?
What is the cost of a typical stud fee? (not including shipping, pick-up,etc.)
What is the cost of shots for pups at 8 weeks?
I have my bitches ultrasounded around 2.5 weeks -3.5 weeks after the first breeding. Cost: $45

Stud Fee Cost: 0.00 I own my own dogs.

I have 12 vaccinations for 2 rounds of shots. 6Week and Boosters. Total Cost : $48

BTW, I do have my vet come to the house and do the Dew Claw removal. It is a nice chance for her to see both mama and the pups and give everybody a "Once over." - Cost: $37.50 (for house visit and DCR on 7 pups.)
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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by snips » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:43 pm

Wow, no one is talking about the work it takes to raise pups..At least for me! Starting with 12 hours hanging over a whelping box, checking pups every 2-3 hours at nite first week, endless hours of cleaning the box, washing bedding, then cleaning pen several times a day...Medicating if needed...Spending time handling pups, socializing them....And for us, we pay taxes on all income, puppies included...Now, I am pretty knowledgable in cutting cost corners and doing much of the medicating myself, and I always give pups 2 shots before they leave here....but vet is always used here for tails and any illness that may incur, bitch or pups...
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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by prairiefirepointers » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:49 pm

nikegundog wrote:The PUPPY MILL comment keeps getting thrown around a lot. I was just thinking that one doesn't have to cut corners but to use a little business sense. Some people are mentioning shipping studs across the country and paying large stud fees and I can see how quickly that would add up. I think if someone had a great female it might not be that difficult to find a great stud dog with the characteristics that I wanted without spending a fortune on them. If I chose to budget $1000 for my stud and did my search on that, I wouldn't call myself a puppy mill. How much investment to one have to make to lose that label? $1500-$2000? Is everyone turning a profit a Puppy Mill? I always thought that label was referring to the kennel with 20 bitches pumping out different breeds as fast as they can.
Yes it does get thrown out alot. The more I hear it the more ignorant the sound.
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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:55 pm

Brenda you know what I'm talking about & you are not one I'm talking of.You are one that knows it takes more then just putting 2 dogs together to produce a litter for proffit.You also know that not as much money is made as some here think there is.You earn every penny you do make it's hard work & if you were paid by the HR might not even make mininum wage.
You are one of the reputable brreders that deserves to make a proffit. :D I'm talking about people that come on hear talking abot all the money they make from dogs but I bet very few if any tells the IRS that? Plus they don't see kennels,food,vet care,or anything else as a deduction,that pretty much tells me IRS knows nothing of ALL this money they are making. :lol:

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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by LincolnAlexander » Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:03 pm

Wondering if breed plays a bit of a role here... would people say there are more large scale breeders, as well as stud candidates in a breed like pointers as opposed to some versatile breeds?

Might be that for some breeds there are few large scale breeders and they rely on the hobby breeders to produce good hunting dogs. Perhaps in some breeds it is also more difficult to find not just a good stud, but one with the qualities that you need when considering the bitch. Why is it a negative if a breeder spends extra money to get that right stud regardless of if there is a decent one who is closer? Perhaps business wise it is not the most sound decision but it benefits the breed.

If those hobby breeders only have a litter or so a year I don't think it is hard to assume that they won't make that much money regardless of how business savvy they are (but again that is subject to what is assumed as expenses that are associated with the litter.)
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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by prairiefirepointers » Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:07 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Brenda you know what I'm talking about & you are not one I'm talking of.You are one that knows it takes more then just putting 2 dogs together to produce a litter for proffit.You also know that not as much money is made as some here think there is.You earn every penny you do make it's hard work & if you were paid by the HR might not even make mininum wage.
You are one of the reputable brreders that deserves to make a proffit. :D I'm talking about people that come on hear talking abot all the money they make from dogs but I bet very few if any tells the IRS that? Plus they don't see kennels,food,vet care,or anything else as a deduction,that pretty much tells me IRS knows nothing of ALL this money they are making. :lol:
I don't know who the heck you think you're talking to then? I have a Retail Sales Liscense and Tax Identification Number for the state of Kansas for both my businesses. I fill out and report my taxes quarterly. Are you expecting people to photocopy their crudentials and show you? , since you are evidentally the governing body. :roll:
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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by snips » Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:09 pm

I think the internet has opened doors to turn everyone into a "breeder"...It has given easy access to people that want to put out multiple litters with little thought or knowledge of the breed or pedigrees...Any more if I see a website offering "GSP' (or any breed) puppies, see pics of parents standing in the yard with tongue hanging out, no mention of a pedigree or health testing, it means backyard breeder, or possible puppy mill....These people have no clue of or care what a dog has to offer the breed before they breed a litter. Unfortunatly they prey on the people that do not know any better..I have sent deposits back several times that I get in and Google them and find they are not who the represented..I also have an issue with websites that have a place to Pay Here....So you can pay someone that never speaks to the buyer about getting one of their puppies..Ugh....I have never sold a puppy over an email, if someone does not care to pic up a phone and call me they will not be getting a pup here. And they still may not.
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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by prairiefirepointers » Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:24 pm

I'll share a tidbit I learned early.

1) Find your niche and stay with it. If you try to expand out of your area of what you're good at, and what your main marketable selling points are, then you will be more adept to loosing money. For Example: I raise birddogs for hunters. I am not going to all of a sudden decide to raise a litter to win the Nat'l Champ at AMES next year.

2) Make friends and LISTEN. Never EVER turn down conversation with a established "Dogger" who has "Been there done that" and will readilly share his advice when they think you are a studious and competent person.

3) You have to have Marketing Sence. You have to know HOW and WHERE to market.

4) A variated skill set. I was in EMS for a number of years. That comes in danged handy sometimes with dogs/pups and also whelping. I can build websites and advertising banners and such. I built both my websites from the ground up. That saves tens of thousands, especially my supply site. I know carpentry fairly well. I have done all my kennel complex except for a little help by myself.

5) the more accomplished you get or "well known", the more people you have in your circle of friends. That makes things easier, and opens up oppertunities and doors as well.

These are just a few examples, but you get the point. If I am doing this stuff, I am NOT PAYING SOMEONE ELSE TO DO IT, and that saves money.

I guess Its bc I was raised to be Self-Reliant for the most part. I don't pay anyone to do something I know how to do or can do myself.
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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by Sue » Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:49 pm

kninebirddog wrote: Brucelosis test 60.00

OFA Thankfully this is once but still 130.00.
I'm glad to hear someone mentioning health tests. To me that is the first and foremost thing I want in a pup's pedigree, proven good hips going back several generations.

Also, for setters anyway, I would like to see Certification for Thyroid (OFA now offers this) as well as Cert for clear eyes and elbows. Those tests all add up in a hurry, if you are going to be a responsible breeder and have all your breeding stock checked.

My sense is there are a lot of pups born out there with these important steps skipped, and that is why we have problems popping up.

Health and sound temperament must be of equal priority with great hunting abilities in breeding decisions, IMO. Three legs of the stool are needed to keep things stable: health, temperament, hunter.

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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by Ahumphers91a » Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:05 pm

I breed to better the breed. I breed to keep (TRY and keep) some of the best lines around. I relly don't do it for a profit, thats why I breed minimally. It is costly, but I don't breed for money. Last breeding I did was in 2005. Produced a National Upland Classic Champ, and as far as the others, they belong to guys that were just weekend hunters.

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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by Sharon » Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:14 pm

baileydog2007 wrote:
nikegundog wrote:I see how some of the expenses are adding up, especially if things don't go well. I have a few questions.
Do most breeders have ultrasounds done?
What is the cost of a typical stud fee? (not including shipping, pick-up,etc.)
What is the cost of shots for pups at 8 weeks?

Ultrasounds, IMO=waste of money.
Stud fees depend on the stud you use obviously, average, maybe 500.00. Range, 350-2000.
Vet visit plus shots/wormer, depending on litter size of course 150-300 depending on vet. Can also do yourself with a little research
Dew claws=about 6.00 a pup, but can EASILY be done yourself.
Without an ultrasound how would one know how many pups will be born?
There would be a big risk of leaving a dead pup in the uterus and harming the bitch wouldn't there?
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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by snips » Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:21 pm

I do not ultrasound or xray...I just keep a Oxytocin shot for when they are finished to help clean them out...It is for peace of mind for most tho....
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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by Sharon » Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:24 pm

Thanks.
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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by prairiefirepointers » Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:26 pm

Sharon wrote:
baileydog2007 wrote:
nikegundog wrote:I see how some of the expenses are adding up, especially if things don't go well. I have a few questions.
Do most breeders have ultrasounds done?
What is the cost of a typical stud fee? (not including shipping, pick-up,etc.)
What is the cost of shots for pups at 8 weeks?

Ultrasounds, IMO=waste of money.
Stud fees depend on the stud you use obviously, average, maybe 500.00. Range, 350-2000.
Vet visit plus shots/wormer, depending on litter size of course 150-300 depending on vet. Can also do yourself with a little research
Dew claws=about 6.00 a pup, but can EASILY be done yourself.
Without an ultrasound how would one know how many pups will be born?
There would be a big risk of leaving a dead pup in the uterus and harming the bitch wouldn't there?
Snips- AUGH! You beat me to it! :lol:

Sharon, I suppose you could shoot the bitch with Oxy when you think she's done to make sure and expel any placenta's or pups remaining. However, I am a +1 on the Ultrasound. I do it for the sole purpose of knowing I in fact have a viable and productive breeding. Secondly, It is nice to know relatively how many pups there will be (roughly) so you can offer a limited amount of deposits.

I made the terrible error once of accepting deposits BEFORE I had verified I had a litter of pups. I ended up sending deposit money back and that was a bad deal. Not only did it make me look bad, but It hurt my pocketbook. Lesson Learned. :wink:
- I wish they had a "HUMBLE" Icon. :lol:
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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by topher40 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:00 pm

snips wrote:I do not ultrasound or xray...I just keep a Oxytocin shot for when they are finished to help clean them out...It is for peace of mind for most tho....
Amen! I give one during labor and one after.
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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by larue » Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:10 pm

if you look at selling pups for the puppose of generating income,you will find that like any other business,you can control your costs,and your income.
The income is determined by the number of puppies you produce,and your selling price.
So to maximize your income you should sell alot of pups,at a high price.
So,that means if you want to get top dollar for a pup,you will need to title the dog,be it navhda,nstra,akc,af whatever.
It will also mean,you will need to use a stud dog who is going to help you get your high price,ie a marketable dog.
The hard part of this is that to get a well known stud,you are going to either pay a high stud fee,or have titled the stud yourself,which leads us right into the cost portion.
To maximize your profit,you will have to keep your cosst as low as you can,low priced,or do it ur self vets.
Dog food costs,will have to be evauluated,as will training and trialing costs.
The problem you run into is that to get top dollar for your pups,your costs will rise rapidly as you train,test and title your dogs.
And to be really successfull you will have to invest in advertising,to get the word out about what great dogs you have.
I myself know how I could have made money on my litter,instead of looking at all the sires in the gsp world, and sending my bitch 1000 miles away to be bred.I could have bred to a nice fc from one of my friends,for free,an hour drive done deal.
I then could have done the tails myself,(which would in no way look as nice),and not taken eva to the vet when she had issues,but just let whatever happens happen.
and then sold all the pups,instead of keeping 2 for myself.
I then could repeat that breeding every time eva came into heat,and just turned her into a puppy producer,until she got too old.At which time she would just disappear.
I certainly would not feed her eagle power pack,as it is way too much money for the cost end,and I would not have spent all the money I have on trying to give max and chelsea some more time with me,heck
they can no longer add to the income side,so they should just go away.
Some of you have touched a nerve on me.I use this simple test when I look at a breeder,do they make a majority of there income on puppy sales.
If they do,I look elsewhere.

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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by kensfishing » Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:45 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Tommy I am not a business but that's how a business stays out of the RED they write off every deduction possible & that is good business so I'm just wondering how many of these so called businesses are paying taxes.
There are very few people that make a living off of just breeding & selling dogs unless they are a puppy mill.Like I said there are reputable breeders making money but they are not making a living at it with out doing other dog related business like training,boarding,handling.grooming,selling dog related products etc.

Nike if you are trying to breed to better the breed or for a specific reason cost of stud fee & his whear abouts should not enter the equation in my mind.Now if I'm trying to make a profit that's a different story.

This all reminds me of people I have heard say $500 a puppy you have 6 pups that's $3000 look at all the money your making,never once thinking about the housing & feeding & keeping them healthy etc.
I have a friend that asked me how much money I make on a litter,then he proceeds to tell me I bred my golden retriever female to a neighbors male & sold all the pups for $800 each as pets.Never once did he mentioned registering them,giving shots,what he fed them or who he sold to only the money he made.Oh & no stud fee now that's the way to breed & sell pups for a profit.

I want no part of it but to each their own.

The WORD client bothers you, you can replace it with customer,buyer,owner,what ever you choose what's the difference? I used cleint because I have repeat BUYERS & some on this board that will atest to me breeding some pretty nice dogs across the country.
Good point. Also the amount of sleep you lose by worrying about the birth and making sure they're being taken care of by the mother. I still haven't really slept since Heart had her babies and she's a great mother. I still worry.

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Sharon
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Re: Price of pups to turn a profit?

Post by Sharon » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:07 pm

prairiefirepointers wrote:
Sharon wrote:
baileydog2007 wrote: Without an ultrasound how would one know how many pups will be born?
There would be a big risk of leaving a dead pup in the uterus and harming the bitch wouldn't there?


........................................

Snips- AUGH! You beat me to it! :lol:

Sharon, I suppose you could shoot the bitch with Oxy when you think she's done to make sure and expel any placenta's or pups remaining. However, I am a +1 on the Ultrasound. I do it for the sole purpose of knowing I in fact have a viable and productive breeding. Secondly, It is nice to know relatively how many pups there will be (roughly) so you can offer a limited amount of deposits.

I made the terrible error once of accepting deposits BEFORE I had verified I had a litter of pups. I ended up sending deposit money back and that was a bad deal. Not only did it make me look bad, but It hurt my pocketbook. Lesson Learned. :wink:
- I wish they had a "HUMBLE" Icon. :lol:
You wouldn't use it often. :) ( I'm sorry. I couldn't resist. You know I think you're a great guy.)
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote

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