Price of pups to turn a profit?

gozz21 · Post by **gozz21** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:30 pm

Question for bailey, when you had any of your litters did you do any health testing on the sire or dam? Did you do any trials or tests?

prairiefirepointers · Post by **prairiefirepointers** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:38 pm

Sharon, I suppose you could shoot the bitch with Oxy when you think she's done to make sure and expel any placenta's or pups remaining. However, I am a +1 on the Ultrasound. I do it for the sole purpose of knowing I in fact have a viable and productive breeding. Secondly, It is nice to know relatively how many pups there will be (roughly) so you can offer a limited amount of deposits.

I made the terrible error once of accepting deposits BEFORE I had verified I had a litter of pups. I ended up sending deposit money back and that was a bad deal. Not only did it make me look bad, but It hurt my pocketbook. Lesson Learned.

- I wish they had a "HUMBLE" Icon.

[/quote][/quote]

You wouldn't use it often.

( I'm sorry. I couldn't resist. You know I think you're a great guy.)[/quote]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Good point.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:43 pm

I think the internet has opened doors to turn everyone into a "breeder"...It has given easy access to people that want to put out multiple litters with little thought or knowledge of the breed or pedigrees...Any more if I see a website offering "GSP' (or any breed) puppies, see pics of parents standing in the yard with tongue hanging out, no mention of a pedigree or health testing, it means backyard breeder, or possible puppy mill....These people have no clue of or care what a dog has to offer the breed before they breed a litter. Unfortunatly they prey on the people that do not know any better..

I see the internet just the opposite. I live in rural MN, twenty years ago if I wanted a dog I had a couple of choices, pick a lab or GSP from people I regularly hunted with or pick up a classifieds and read a 10 word description of a dog that usually resided over 150 miles away from me. From that I could get a couple hand picked references and call people (who are probably their friends) and listen to how good their dogs are. I think in the internet age my chances of finding a decent dog has went up 1000% and the weeding out the bad breeders is just as easy. Now I can check out a pedigree with a click of the mouse. Research, which use to take months can be done in a 1/2 hour.

baileydog2007 · Post by **baileydog2007** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:44 pm

gozz21 wrote:Question for bailey, when you had any of your litters did you do any health testing on the sire or dam? Did you do any trials or tests?

Bailey was a SH in AKC, had 2 Master passes (along with a couple fails, those, on me), I know some look down on AKC hunt tests, but its all I knew/know, and they were fun. Did all training myself. Her hips were tested, eyes cleared, and tested for EIC and CMN. She was OFA "good" and CERF "clear". The sire, a AFC/NFC stud from Candlewoods, he was obviously tested and all clear. Why do you ask?

baileydog2007 · Post by **baileydog2007** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:47 pm

nikegundog wrote:
I think the internet has opened doors to turn everyone into a "breeder"...It has given easy access to people that want to put out multiple litters with little thought or knowledge of the breed or pedigrees...Any more if I see a website offering "GSP' (or any breed) puppies, see pics of parents standing in the yard with tongue hanging out, no mention of a pedigree or health testing, it means backyard breeder, or possible puppy mill....These people have no clue of or care what a dog has to offer the breed before they breed a litter. Unfortunatly they prey on the people that do not know any better..
I see the internet just the opposite. I live in rural MN, twenty years ago if I wanted a dog I had a couple of choices, pick a lab or GSP from people I regularly hunted with or pick up a classifieds and read a 10 word description of a dog that usually resided over 150 miles away from me. From that I could get a couple hand picked references and call people (who are probably their friends) and listen to how good their dogs are. I think in the internet age my chances of finding a decent dog has went up 1000% and the weeding out the bad breeders is just as easy. Now I can check out a pedigree with a click of the mouse. Research, which use to take months can be done in a 1/2 hour.

+1. Unless a buyer is terribly irresponsible, your chances of getting a well bred pup from a good breeder are pretty good these days IMO.

gozz21 · Post by **gozz21** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 5:51 pm

I was just wondering. Some people don't do health clearances because they believe their dog is healthy and it is too much money. The health clearances do cut into your profit for your litter, but I feel it is essential for good breeding practices.

snips · Post by **snips** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:07 pm

I agree the internet is a great tool, but has brought breeders out of the woodwork too, all for a buck...Not their breed.....

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:46 pm

I have been at this for over 40 years and have found no way to make money breeding dogs, especially when its only a litter every year or so. If you throw in the cost of training, testing, competing, and hunting wild game (assuming you want to know you're selling more than just a title), the vet bills, monthly fixed costs...... and then consider the times it doesn't take but you're out the travel, insemination fees, etc,....then there's the cost of complications and they will happen if you breed long enough, the occasional pup you replace (inspite of what you hear, even good dogs can throw duds).... The only possible way might be to ask $2K and wait for the fools who will spend it....but then you're gonna spend a lot of time and money creating the PR blitz.

IMO....if you're asking about the money....you're considering it for the wrong reasons.

larry · Post by **larry** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:52 pm

I feel a lot of the good breeders are not in it for the money. They do it to try and better the breed and for the love of the dogs.

baileydog2007 · Post by **baileydog2007** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:07 pm

larry wrote:I feel a lot of the good breeders are not in it for the money. They do it to try and better the breed and for the love of the dogs.

I agree 100%. But, if they were good at it, they could kill two birds with one stone!

Yahoo · Post by **Yahoo** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:11 pm

Sue wrote:
kninebirddog wrote: Brucelosis test 60.00

OFA Thankfully this is once but still 130.00.

I'm glad to hear someone mentioning health tests. To me that is the first and foremost thing I want in a pup's pedigree, proven good hips going back several generations.

Also, for setters anyway, I would like to see Certification for Thyroid (OFA now offers this) as well as Cert for clear eyes and elbows. Those tests all add up in a hurry, if you are going to be a responsible breeder and have all your breeding stock checked.

My sense is there are a lot of pups born out there with these important steps skipped, and that is why we have problems popping up.

Health and sound temperament must be of equal priority with great hunting abilities in breeding decisions, IMO. Three legs of the stool are needed to keep things stable: health, temperament, hunter.

All that is great Sue. But if the dog is not a birddog it is worthless. How do you test for that. How do you test their nose? You mention health tests but they are not nearly as important as to what makes up a bird dog. Brains, Stamina, hearing, Nose, biddability, ETC. I have seen a few dogs with bad hips hunted great until 10. Even some trialed until that age. I have never seeen a dog with great hips and no brains for hunting make it past 18 months.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:39 pm

If you throw in the cost of training, testing, competing, and hunting wild game (assuming you want to know you're selling more than just a title), the vet bills, monthly fixed costs......

This IMO is one of the big reasons I think people claim they aren't making money.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:49 pm

All that is great Sue. But if the dog is not a birddog it is worthless. How do you test for that. How do you test their nose? You mention health tests but they are not nearly as important as to what makes up a bird dog. Brains, Stamina, hearing, Nose, biddability, ETC. I have seen a few dogs with bad hips hunted great until 10. Even some trialed until that age. I have never seeen a dog with great hips and no brains for hunting make it past 18 months.

So you'd breed and dog with great bird skills and a "poor" rating on the hips? :roll:

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:50 pm

I agree 100%. But, if they were good at it, they could kill two birds with one stone!

Wrong.....buyers have choices...and a lot of very good sources for pups...and there are only so many people that need to plop down $2K so they can feel good.....most folks are way too smart for that...besides...I wouldn't be interested in someone looking for a status symbol...I'd rather have the guy/gal that's gonna work the dog and take care of it well.

MillerClemsonHD · Post by **MillerClemsonHD** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:56 pm

bailey since you have it figured out why don't you just start a consulting company and go around and tell all these breeders what they are doing wrong and need to change so they can make money.

PkerStr8Tail · Post by **PkerStr8Tail** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:54 pm

prairiefirepointers wrote:
nikegundog wrote:The PUPPY MILL comment keeps getting thrown around a lot. I was just thinking that one doesn't have to cut corners but to use a little business sense. Some people are mentioning shipping studs across the country and paying large stud fees and I can see how quickly that would add up. I think if someone had a great female it might not be that difficult to find a great stud dog with the characteristics that I wanted without spending a fortune on them. If I chose to budget $1000 for my stud and did my search on that, I wouldn't call myself a puppy mill. How much investment to one have to make to lose that label? $1500-$2000? Is everyone turning a profit a Puppy Mill? I always thought that label was referring to the kennel with 20 bitches pumping out different breeds as fast as they can.
Yes it does get thrown out alot. The more I hear it the more ignorant the sound.

Most of the puppy mill comments come from people that try to label smaller breeders in a negative light because they are cutting into the big guy's action. Much like any business, the big boys will use any negative smear campaign to put down the competition to try to gain an advantage. As was said above a puppy mill is someone owning many bitches of just about any breed pumping out large numbers of pups just to make money with no regard to breeding with a purpose to improve a breed. As I said, it is loosely used today to label the smaller kennels or "backyard" breeders. There is another term to discuss.

Regarding the comments that say you shouldn't count the cost of owning the dogs cause you own them anyway is mixing a hobby and business. Owning and hunting dogs is a hobby. When you asked, can you make money breeding pups? Now that is a business question and a business has to use the total cost of ownership. No real business would stay in business long if it started to discount costs to run that business and not account for them.

baileydog2007 · Post by **baileydog2007** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:42 pm

MillerClemsonHD wrote:bailey since you have it figured out why don't you just start a consulting company and go around and tell all these breeders what they are doing wrong and need to change so they can make money.

Never said I have it all figured out. But its not rocket science. I made money on every litter I had. But I only had a litter every other year. Maybe Im smart enough to know having one every year would lead to a problem?????? Its common sense. Having more litters doesnt always equal more money, be smart.

I see you jumped in and had a ton to add to the thread, thanks. Easy to bash someone, coming from one who has zero input on the issue. Genius.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:45 pm

Lol the more I read this thread the more I understand where a lot of kennel go out of business.

Bailey you need study business for one year. Not A business but the art of business and you might see there is a bigger picture.

Also if you are two breed two "hunting quality" dogs. The least you can do is get all possible health certs.. not getting into any of the testing stuff...

baileydog2007 · Post by **baileydog2007** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:46 pm

JKP wrote:
I agree 100%. But, if they were good at it, they could kill two birds with one stone!
Wrong.....buyers have choices...and a lot of very good sources for pups...and there are only so many people that need to plop down $2K so they can feel good.....most folks are way too smart for that...besides...I wouldn't be interested in someone looking for a status symbol...I'd rather have the guy/gal that's gonna work the dog and take care of it well.

:roll: Ya good one.

baileydog2007 · Post by **baileydog2007** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:49 pm

ultracarry wrote:Lol the more I read this thread the more I understand where a lot of kennel go out of business.

Bailey you need study business for one year. Not A business but the art of business and you might see there is a bigger picture.

Also if you are two breed two "hunting quality" dogs. The least you can do is get all possible health certs.. not getting into any of the testing stuff...

LOL, yea. You know me enough to say that. Hilarious. And before I bred my dog, I got every heath clearence and cert I could. A bigger picture??? Oh, ok, so Im guessing you failed at it too??? Too funny.

baileydog2007 · Post by **baileydog2007** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:08 pm

Bottom line is this. IF you are good at it, you'll make money. If youre not, you wont. Im not an expert or a breeder, so I dont expect to make money at it. Those who call themselves "breeders" and cant make money at it, need to re evaluate what they call themselves. From places I have worked and guys I know, if you are a "breeder" and cant make money, change professions, you suck at the one you are doing. Im not a "breeder" cuz its a gamble, hard work, and pretty sure I couldnt do it, but at least Ill admit that. You that claim to be "breeders" and bitch you cant make money, are just too stubborn to admit youre not good enough at it to make money. There are tons of folks who make a good living breeding dogs, they arent folks who do it for a hobby, they take a risk in doing it for a living. You who do it as a hobby and bitch about the fact you lose money, whatever. Ridicolous IMO.

Don Evanson · Post by **Don Evanson** » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:51 pm

To make any profit on animals in a lot of cases you need to do your own vet work ! This mite sound cheap but there's a lot of dogs that go to the vet that didn't need to go ? Now i love my dogs and the ski is the limit if i have the funds or can make payments heck i adopted strays more then i can count on both hands and took them to the vet ! I've been around a lot of vets in my life time everyday for 20 years, I asked a lot of questions over the years. On my litters i do the tails and dewclaws and give shots my self its not because of the money its because i got tired of tails to short to long and on the solid GSP's i got tired of the stitch causing a scar and the hair wouldn't cover it, I work 4 days a week and when i have puppies i dont get much sleep cleaning washing socializing bottle feeding I love every minute of it. I cant stand to see a litter in the dirt out in the heat or cold, if they can't whelp a litter in a controlled environment that is sanitary well they shouldn't be breeding, As for the breeders that sale there pups for top top dollar they deserve every penny because if there getting top dollar they have titles of some kind and probably did the rite line breed Dedication should make the best sale for dogs and pups ! I respect what breeders do i might do it a little deferent but i have seen some of the pups i have out there and they have what it takes.To make a profit you need to get your price and hope all go's good before after and while your raising the pups ? PROFIT IS IN THE EYES OF THE BEHOLDER !

pupsnchucker 001.jpg

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:37 am

i attended and graduated from business college and so did my husband..we both went to college for business when we decided to open our construction company so we could learn to do the book keeping and manage the business ourselves instead of taking from our profits to pay and trust someone else to do it ( profit means DIY and do it right)..i know breeding dogs is different but if you are doing it for a LIVING, if its an actual registered business and it pays your bills then you have to have a business plan and have to be smart in keeping the money coming in or it will fail and you will be broke..in every business theres profit or you go under its just that simple..i do all of our book keeping and i can go through and find so many write offs that i barely have to pay taxes at all, and yes they are all legal, by the book write offs..you need to make sure you educate yourself as much as possible in order to make it work..i think in any business word of mouth is your money maker, if you do right by people, provide a service that is a great experience for the customer and sets you apart from the others they will tell many people and your business will go on for many years..when it comes to breeding dogs you can pretty much get a birddog anywhere and you can pretty much find a pedigree or line you are looking for anywhere as well so what makes you stand out from everyone else is what will keep you in business, what makes a person pay for shipping because they want YOUR pups instead of the breeder down the road, you have to have something that nobody else has whether it be unlimited support as a breeder or health guarantees or titles theres alot of competition out there so if you are selling pups and still making a profit you are doing something right, if not then it wont be long before your business fails..also in order to keep a business going theres always a need to invest more and more to improve it as times goes on and no matter what the business may be if you try to always cut corners where they just cant be cut you will lack in quality and it will effect your business negatively without a doubt....ruth

solon · Post by **solon** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:39 am

You certainly can make a little money producing a litter of pups, especially if you don't count your time and labor for anything. I can give you specifics on one bitch that we bred in the past few years. In order to use the best stud I could find within the range of a FedEx overnight, we tried a chilled semen AI. The expenses for that effort were $632, no pups. Then we traveled and tried a natural cover and the dogs were mated too late in the cycle and it didn't take. Expenses for that effort were $456 including travel but not time. Next we tried the natural cover again and this time we got progesterone testing to time it better. It turned out she was ovulating on day 8. The expenses were $1658, including a $1100 stud fee. Result 7 pups sold for $800 ea, so gross income was $5600. Next we tried a repeat breeding by AI again costing $971, no pups. So net income for breeding this bitch was about $1900 and I am sure there are expenses I haven't included. Like giving pup buyers that had traveled here by plane room and board, long distance phone calls, puppy damage to carpets, etc, etc. On the litter that did take, the expenses included no vet expenses, since I did dew claws, vaccinations, etc myself, and no pups needed vet care for a problem.

I have no record of the time invested in raising the litter, but someone once said you can make about 40 cents an hour doing it.

So naturally, if you own the studs and dams and have no stud fees, and scale up from the occasional litter, you can increase income compared to expenses. I think the best reason to breed when you are not doing it as a business is to produce some pups for your own evaluation and replacement of your hunting/trialing string. There is some fun to be had raising pups along with the work.

In contrast to this personal experience, consider an operation like Grouse Ridge Kennels:

http://www.grouseridgesetters.com/

Raising setters at GR is going into its third generation and it has some scale. They have an inventory of perhaps 50 dogs on an old dairy farm of 1500 acres converted to the kennels. They have their own studs and also go outside for blood they think will add to their dogs performances. They are heavily into trials and hold many on their grounds and adjoining lands, which include the Lost Pond Club. They keep horses and groom trails. It would be difficult to do a balance sheet on their operation as a business, and I have no idea how that would go. But the costs of feeding, trialing, advertising, etc. have to be included in whether pup sales make any money. They currently list female pups for $1250 and males for $1000. They also sell some adult dogs to Japan and elsewhere for good money and have started dogs for sale. With big operations like this one, it would help to be independently wealthy, like Bob Wehle was.

Lloyd Murray's Long Gone Setters is another type of business model for producing bird dogs. He doesn't like to raise puppies and grouse setters are his hobby, not his job, which he carried on from his Grandfather. He campaigns and hunts his setters and derives some offsetting of costs by stud fees and selling his pick of the litter stud fee pups. To get stud fees, he incurs the substantial expenses of trialing and training so his male dogs (and some bitches) can win multiple championships and compete for breeding rights in the market. His training expenses are substantial, mainly using renown pro trainer Dave Hughes, and working dogs throughout the year himself on the good wild bird resource that he has in northern NH. The dedication and effort expended on his kennel operation has to be seen to appreciate how major it is.

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:31 am

I gotta say...I am getting a chuckle from this thread.

Can a person, in the strict sense, "make money" breeding dogs? Well I guess if you make one lone dollar, you have "made money." Certainly economy's of scale could create some wealth, after all their are some "High Volume Breeders" that do in fact "make money" breeding dogs. Think 400-500 dog types of facilities, those that provide inventory for pet stores. Their business model must work...help to pay, buildings to pay for, etc.

The small hobby breeder? Couple litters a year? Put a price tag on your time, really, would you pay yourself $20/hr? More? Less? Have a litter and punch the clock see what you "make" per hour.

baileydog2007 · Post by **baileydog2007** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:44 am

I would pay myself 50/hr for all the time I invest in the pups. Pay my kids 20/hr when they are socializing them, looking at them, petting them, feeding them, or even thinking about them. Deduct my mortgage, electricty, and heat for the 7-9 weeks they are in my house. Add all the hunting trips, training, training supplies, and time ever spent on the dam of the litter. Add all of the fees, gas, lodging, and time, to and from tests/trials. Add the price of the dam as a pup and her lifetime vet bills and food. Add it all up, then bitch I cant make any money whelping a litter of pups, simply just cant be done, ever, by anyone. Its impossible.

oakcreek · Post by **oakcreek** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 7:49 am

You can make money with 10 dogs, and depending on what breed and what quality you might be able to make a living on it.

I promise you that no one gets into breeding dogs to lose money, and no one stays in it to lose money. Even through the rough times you think for some reason next year could be better. It isn't solely about the money, but I really could have used the 1000's invested in dogs, and over $10,000 I have spent on stud fees somewhere else I'm sure.

LincolnAlexander · Post by **LincolnAlexander** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:22 am

oakcreek wrote:I promise you that no one gets into breeding dogs to lose money, and no one stays in it to lose money.

I think this depends on what you qualify as 'getting into breeding dogs.' If you are referring to somewhat larger scale operations where it is the person's livelyhood (their business) I would agree, it makes no sense to get into it then lose money. If you are referring to all breeders I disagree; I know a number of people who work full time and view this as more of a hobby (not a business), they do it for the love of the breed, and are not particularly interested in making money.

It seems it is being viewed from extremes here, anyone who doesn't make money is either a fool, or is 'claiming' every expense under the sun so they can complain they don't make money...

I think this view is a little rediculous. Yes some people make money breeding, there are ways to do it especially if it is more business oriented, however many don't and it is not because they are fools, they just have a different perspective and don't mind spending that extra money to ensure they are getting exactly what they want out of a breeding.

oakcreek · Post by **oakcreek** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:43 am

IF they lost money every time they bred a dog most wouldn't do it. I guess I don't call the guy breeding his one dog a year a breeder. He is having a litter of puppies, not a breeder. A breeder, in my opinion, breeds multiple litters a year (4 or more). These people either are breeding with the intentions of selling the puppies for profit, finding their next field trial dog, or selling started dogs for a profit. Their are a lot of dog owners that just want to have puppies out of their prized hunting companion. Their are also a lot of dogs in the pound for the same reason. I'm not saying that you have to be a breeder to produce a good litter of puppies, but I would say that usually a breeders puppies don't make it to the pound for what ever reason (and I am talking about working dog breeders). Just the way I see it

By the way I run a kennel, but also run cattle, work a 40 hr week job, and sell ag fertilizer on the side when I can. I love dogs, and enjoy having puppies. But hobby or not, I better make some money or its just not worth the time away from the family, the upfront cost, or the headache.

baileydog2007 · Post by **baileydog2007** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:48 am

LincolnAlexander wrote:
oakcreek wrote:I promise you that no one gets into breeding dogs to lose money, and no one stays in it to lose money.
I think this depends on what you qualify as 'getting into breeding dogs.' If you are referring to somewhat larger scale operations where it is the person's livelyhood (their business) I would agree, it makes no sense to get into it then lose money. If you are referring to all breeders I disagree; I know a number of people who work full time and view this as more of a hobby (not a business), they do it for the love of the breed, and are not particularly interested in making money.

It seems it is being viewed from extremes here, anyone who doesn't make money is either a fool, or is 'claiming' every expense under the sun so they can complain they don't make money...

I think this view is a little rediculous. Yes some people make money breeding, there are ways to do it especially if it is more business oriented, however many don't and it is not because they are fools, they just have a different perspective and don't mind spending that extra money to ensure they are getting exactly what they want out of a breeding.

My point is with the folks who are doing it as a hobby, want to claim they cant make money on a litter because of all of the expenses. The sire/dam, training, their hourly wage, ect. So if they didnt breed that dog, would they then not train it? Not feed it? Not take it to the vet? Not do tests/trials? Not take it hunting?? If not, then I guess they should deduct every expense ever incurred, and evaluate why they have the dog in the first place. Myself, I hunt, train, and test the dog for fun. IF the dog isnt good enough at it, certainly wouldnt breed it. If the dog is, I would consider it, if it made sense and was a good breeding. However, weather the dog was breedable or not I would still hunt her, train her, feed her, and take her to the vet, so I would not consider all of those expenses "litter related". Most who do it as a hobby, would do the same I think. If someone has more than one litter, after not making any money at it, Id have to ask why they would do that?? They hate money or something?

LincolnAlexander · Post by **LincolnAlexander** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:59 am

I was not suggesting that those who do make money don't care about the breed, I don't think the two are mutually exclusive, just that some do breed and not make money at it for varying reasons.

As for what constitutes a breeder, I think that is open to interpretation and varies really by breed and area. Some of the best breeders I know only have a litter or two a year. They produce great hunting dogs from proven dogs, they health test, they do in depth research of the lines, have breeding plans, etc and are not just doing it for the sake of getting a puppy (and are always willing to take a pup back if someone can't keep it regardless of age.) I don't think quantity necessarily makes someone a breeder.

Makes me think about what different people think makes a breeder

.

baileydog2007 · Post by **baileydog2007** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:05 am

LincolnAlexander wrote:I was not suggesting that those who do make money don't care about the breed, I don't think the two are mutually exclusive, just that some do breed and not make money at it for varying reasons.

As for what constitutes a breeder, I think that is open to interpretation and varies really by breed and area. Some of the best breeders I know only have a litter or two a year. They produce great hunting dogs from proven dogs, they health test, they do in depth research of the lines, have breeding plans, etc and are not just doing it for the sake of getting a puppy (and are always willing to take a pup back if someone can't keep it regardless of age.) I don't think quantity necessarily makes someone a breeder.

Makes me think about what different people think makes a breeder .

I agree, its not the quantity of litters that makes a breeder, at least not to me. Can be 1 a year or 10 a year. And, as you said, some of the best have limited litters, for a lot of reasons, one is supply and demand, Im sure. They have their pups sold before they hit the ground, good business. Now, if that same breeder tried to double his/her business, they might have a problem, but they know what they are doing, and it pays off for them. They are the good ones, they make money at it.

LincolnAlexander · Post by **LincolnAlexander** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:15 am

baileydog2007 wrote: My point is with the folks who are doing it as a hobby, want to claim they cant make money on a litter because of all of the expenses. The sire/dam, training, their hourly wage, ect. So if they didnt breed that dog, would they then not train it? Not feed it? Not take it to the vet? Not do tests/trials? Not take it hunting?? If not, then I guess they should deduct every expense ever incurred, and evaluate why they have the dog in the first place. Myself, I hunt, train, and test the dog for fun. IF the dog isnt good enough at it, certainly wouldnt breed it. If the dog is, I would consider it, if it made sense and was a good breeding. However, weather the dog was breedable or not I would still hunt her, train her, feed her, and take her to the vet, so I would not consider all of those expenses "litter related". Most who do it as a hobby, would do the same I think. If someone has more than one litter, after not making any money at it, Id have to ask why they would do that?? They hate money or something?

I agree with you on some of that and from my perspective wouldn't include items that would be done anyway. However the cost of health testing, stud fee, (IMO) training to a certain level to achieve the title to prove your dog, and other costs specifically related to the litter are all expenses that could be considered when determining whether any money was made, and really do add up.

If they don't make money because of all they put into it, perhaps they are doing it because they love the breed and enjoy creating something that will improve the breed. People do lots of things they enjoy without making money at it.

Great discussion, I appreciate everyone's point of view whether or not it agrees with mine

.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:29 am

If the person producing pups cannot assure a quality life for the lifetime of every one of those pups, then I have a problem with it. Most of the pointing breeds in rescue come from breeders who are in it to make money.

oakcreek · Post by **oakcreek** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:34 am

Cajun, I am fairly sure that breeders take other means to move dogs then drive them to the pound. Those pointers may have been bought from those big breeders, but most big breeders don't have a problem opening up kennel space when needed.

Some of the best breedings do come from a guy that breeds his dog to the right stud, but that in no way makes them a breeder. It makes them a guy that bred his dog, and did a good job pairing her.

baileydog2007 · Post by **baileydog2007** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:57 am

LincolnAlexander wrote:
baileydog2007 wrote: My point is with the folks who are doing it as a hobby, want to claim they cant make money on a litter because of all of the expenses. The sire/dam, training, their hourly wage, ect. So if they didnt breed that dog, would they then not train it? Not feed it? Not take it to the vet? Not do tests/trials? Not take it hunting?? If not, then I guess they should deduct every expense ever incurred, and evaluate why they have the dog in the first place. Myself, I hunt, train, and test the dog for fun. IF the dog isnt good enough at it, certainly wouldnt breed it. If the dog is, I would consider it, if it made sense and was a good breeding. However, weather the dog was breedable or not I would still hunt her, train her, feed her, and take her to the vet, so I would not consider all of those expenses "litter related". Most who do it as a hobby, would do the same I think. If someone has more than one litter, after not making any money at it, Id have to ask why they would do that?? They hate money or something?
I agree with you on some of that and from my perspective wouldn't include items that would be done anyway. However the cost of health testing, stud fee, (IMO) training to a certain level to achieve the title to prove your dog, and other costs specifically related to the litter are all expenses that could be considered when determining whether any money was made, and really do add up.

If they don't make money because of all they put into it, perhaps they are doing it because they love the breed and enjoy creating something that will improve the breed. People do lots of things they enjoy without making money at it.

Great discussion, I appreciate everyone's point of view whether or not it agrees with mine .

For sure. I do tons of things I dont make money at. But to say "You cant make money whelping pups, Ive done it for XXX years", is not accurate. You can say "I have done it for years, and cant make money" I raised 3 litters and made a few thousand dollars. Not gonna get rich obviously, but a person can make a few dollars doing it. i would never have a litter if it wasnt a good breeding, didnt have a few spoken for before the breeding, and if I couldnt make a few dollars doing it.

markj · Post by **markj** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:40 am

About breeders? Do any of the big kennel people have other jobs that help supplement the income? The old time breeders like Dr. Thornton had other jobs, he was a Dr.

had a lot of money so he imported a slug of shorthairs, the first to reg them etc. Dad had race horses but it wasnt his only income, heck no guarentee they would win any money. I see the animal thing as a hobby, not many can live entirely off the money dogs can bring in, I see it as a cost thing, pay for stud fee if needed, shipping to breed if needed, vet stuff, health certs and the bruc test needs t obe done before each breeding as it is a STD. Cost to run in any test, cost to get there and the stuff you got to have to run tests, horses, trailors, trucks get 2 mpg, I dont see much room for profit.

To me it looks more like a hobby than a business. Some can make a hobby work cash wise but how many do just that?

LincolnAlexander · Post by **LincolnAlexander** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 10:47 am

baileydog2007 wrote: For sure. I do tons of things I dont make money at. But to say "You cant make money whelping pups, Ive done it for XXX years", is not accurate. You can say "I have done it for years, and cant make money" I raised 3 litters and made a few thousand dollars. Not gonna get rich obviously, but a person can make a few dollars doing it. i would never have a litter if it wasnt a good breeding, didnt have a few spoken for before the breeding, and if I couldnt make a few dollars doing it.

Fair enough... I don't think saying 'You can't make money on whelping pups' is true, but I don't think people who don't make money necessarily deserve criticism or the assumption that they couldn't make money. In some cases they simply made choices that increased costs in their desire to make the best puppies they possibly could. That being said some people do make money and still produce great dogs.

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:13 am

Cajun Casey wrote:If the person producing pups cannot assure a quality life for the lifetime of every one of those pups, then I have a problem with it. Most of the pointing breeds in rescue come from breeders who are in it to make money.

Having spent the last 10+ years in dog rescue (mostly Pointers, but the occasional Vizsla, GSP's and even a 3 month old Weim) - I am totally with Cajun on this one. Most do come from folks who are not "reputable" breeders. MANY do come direclty from the breeder when they can't sell the litter at 10 weeks old. I have had several instances where the dog's papers came with the dog to the shelter (or to a rescue) and the original breeder had "no interest in the dogs because we have a litter on the ground." That was one response from a breeder - others just don't bother to call you back and duck your calls. Now that's just horse-poop IMO. You breed - you are responsible for that pup for the life of the pup.

That's another big reason I really am starting to hate the backyard breeders. They don't breed to better the breed - little fluffy pie and neighbor's sweet nuts are bred because "they hunt great". No health testing, no clearances, no real reason to breed except they want a pup. Leaves the other 8-9 pups in the litter looking for homes. No screening on homes they go to, no follow up - and certainly no intention to take back any pups that don't work out. Frustrating when you work in rescue (I volunteer) to see all these dogs come thru the shelter because someone didn't make a wise decision before breeding.

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:31 am

Cajun Casey wrote:If the person producing pups cannot assure a quality life for the lifetime of every one of those pups, then I have a problem with it. Most of the pointing breeds in rescue come from breeders who are in it to make money.

Your first sentence is right on - well said , but do you have a link or stats for your second statement? I can't imagine how this could be measured.

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:33 am

i too have been rescuing dogs for 15 years and i have had ALOT of experience with birddog owners bringing them into shelters because the dog is TOO HYPER, BARKS, WONT LISTEN, CANT BE TRAINED ect..not only are these people not educated on the breeds but they expect a sporting dog to be a couch potato

..breeders DEFINITLEY have to make sure all the pups go to homes where the people understand what the dogs needs are and be honest how high strung these dogs CAN be especially if they are not exercised and trained properly..a dog with a genetic makeup such as a shorthair cannot be expected to sit in a crate or kennel ALL DAY and then just be let out in the yard for a bit in the evening and be happy and behave..if i had a litter of pups i would be so honest with the people of the expectations i would have for my pups i would almost scare them away, the ones i felt fit would then get a pup but the ones who just wanted to hear these dogs are great house dogs that wont chew anything, are quiet and dont need much training wouldnt hear it from me and wouldnt get a pup either..birddogs all vary with personality, some are calmer then others thats for sure BUT you have to give them balance with exercise and training or they can quickly become unmanagable and obnoxious (at the fault of the owner)..nothing good comes out of a breeder sugar coating a breed or litter of pups just to make a sale knowing they wont take it back if needbe because they already have another litter coming so they need to make room..dont get me wrong i am aware a breeder cant control what a buyer does with their pup once it leaves (to a certain extent) but doing their part as much as they can before the pups leave will sure weed out some irresponsible buyers and puppy mill buyers too....ruth

markj · Post by **markj** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:41 am

Cajun Casey wrote:
If the person producing pups cannot assure a quality life for the lifetime of every one of those pups, then I have a problem with it. Most of the pointing breeds in rescue come from breeders who are in it to make money.

OK, now please tell me how you do this? A person buys a dog, takes dog home. Your responsibility ends there IMHO.

It would be like chevy making sure you didnt wreck one of their cars.........after you bought it. Have you ever bred a dog or any other animal? and sold their offspring? Do you go home with the animal?

I just dont understand this part. How do you make this happen in the real world?

snips · Post by **snips** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:49 am

We have taken back 2 dogs this yr already...And the 2 DC's we have were dogs taken back...My Sam was brought back to the breeder of the litter (that had bred to Fritz) and he brought him here and I bought him...Initially to train and resell. I tell everyone that gets a pup here that if things change and they cannot keep the dog to contact us first...

LincolnAlexander · Post by **LincolnAlexander** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:49 am

markj wrote: OK, now please tell me how you do this? A person buys a dog, takes dog home. Your responsibility ends there IMHO.

It would be like chevy making sure you didnt wreck one of their cars.........after you bought it. Have you ever bred a dog or any other animal? and sold their offspring? Do you go home with the animal?

I just dont understand this part. How do you make this happen in the real world?

I could be wrong but I believe Cajun was referring to the breeder taking one of their pups back at any point should the owner be unable to handle it or no longer want it.

Ideally a breeder should have a good screening process to try their best to ensure the pup is going to a good home (to liken it to cars think license... testing is required to prove you can drive and are not a hazard.) No matter how careful you are there is always a chance the pup will end up in a home that is not ideal or the peoples circumstances could drastically change... if the situation should occur and the owners feel they no longer want it or can keep it, many breeders will step in and take the pup and find a new home themselves, in fact I know some at least include this as part of their contract.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:52 am

markj wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:
If the person producing pups cannot assure a quality life for the lifetime of every one of those pups, then I have a problem with it. Most of the pointing breeds in rescue come from breeders who are in it to make money.
OK, now please tell me how you do this? A person buys a dog, takes dog home. Your responsibility ends there IMHO.

It would be like chevy making sure you didnt wreck one of their cars.........after you bought it. Have you ever bred a dog or any other animal? and sold their offspring? Do you go home with the animal?

I just dont understand this part. How do you make this happen in the real world?

Read what RoostersMom wrote.

markj · Post by **markj** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:02 pm

MANY do come direclty from the breeder

I am over 50 and I have not seen this at our shelter ever. Which by the way is in need of some fosters since they are next to a water way that is up to the top of the banks. I got a few here at my place but only have so much room. This is a no kill shelter too unlike the Omaha place.

Now when I was a kid the circus came thru, they used springers for a dog act but one had pups so they gave the litter to the Omaha pound and put pics in the world herald, my Uncle sent my Mom over to get one she got there just in time to pick up the last male. That was the only time I ever saw a litter end up in a pound.

I have been to a puppy mill, saw an add for gsp so I went out, found they had 4 or 5 from last litter and a bro mated a sis them pups was crazy. She had cage after cage of tiny poodles and other smaller dogs, having pups and sending them to pet stores. Now that is someone I would say needs to stop.

Our shelter accepts donations too...... hate to plug it but they are in a huge need right now.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:06 pm

Since I used the words puppuy mill a few times I guess I'm considered one of the big guys.I do probably own more dogs (9) then a few of you business experts that don't seem to understand that any successful business takes every deduction possible.
I'm not a business I do it for my enjoyment & to produce nice dogs for mine & others enjoyment I like getting calls from owners telling me how nice the dogs they bought from me are.
I guess in some of your eyes I'm not considered a breeder as I have only produced about 9 litters since 1994 maybe 3 or4 the 20 yrs previous to that.The first 20 yrs I was strictly a hunter & only owned 1 dog for most of that time but near the end had 2.The litters I bred then were to friends or neighbors dogs not much thought other then to produce a few pups & sell.Yeah I made a few bucks but no stud fees,no shots,well you get the picture & when I say a few bucks & mean a few bucks pups sold the for $75 to $150.
The litters I have bred since 1994 were well thought out & well planned top bloodlines outside studs,kennels not just dog houses,quality food,worming everything that goes into producing healthy,quality bred pups.The most I have sold pups was ($700) last litter of 4 out of a dog that needs 2 points to finish FC who was sired by a NFC on the other side of the country.That's $2800 & wouldn't cover half yr of trialing.That's not counting any other expenses at all.$2800 would slighty cover the litter she came from.

It does not take a kennel full of dogs to run a puppy mill in my eyes but I guess I'm blind.
To me a puppy mill is anyone who breeds dogs strictly for the money with no concern for dogs or pups other then that reason.Sure the bigger the operation the bigger the profit but still the same.
So breeder or not if I were a business I would be in the red as a business goes.When you spend more money then you take in on anything there is no profit.

Oh just to let you all no I was a roofing business untill my TIA (mini stroke) in 2005 so I know a little bit about how it works.

Here is a afterthought----I have people ask me how much money I make trialing HUH!! The answer is $00000000000000 Then why do you do it???? Answer because I enjoy it! SAME APPLYS TO BREEDING DOGS!!!

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:19 pm

I tell everyone that gets a pup here that if things change and they cannot keep the dog to contact us first...

Only way to go....I want to hear about it first as well. In 40 years, I've bought back 2 dogs...one for aggression and I put that dog down and the other because the dog was WAY too much hunting dog for the owner...and the new owner is VERY pleased. I want to hear the good and the not so good....you don't hide...you make things right when folks have acted responsibly with a pup.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:27 pm

markj wrote:
MANY do come direclty from the breeder
I am over 50 and I have not seen this at our shelter ever. Which by the way is in need of some fosters since they are next to a water way that is up to the top of the banks. I got a few here at my place but only have so much room. This is a no kill shelter too unlike the Omaha place.

Now when I was a kid the circus came thru, they used springers for a dog act but one had pups so they gave the litter to the Omaha pound and put pics in the world herald, my Uncle sent my Mom over to get one she got there just in time to pick up the last male. That was the only time I ever saw a litter end up in a pound.

I have been to a puppy mill, saw an add for gsp so I went out, found they had 4 or 5 from last litter and a bro mated a sis them pups was crazy. She had cage after cage of tiny poodles and other smaller dogs, having pups and sending them to pet stores. Now that is someone I would say needs to stop.

Our shelter accepts donations too...... hate to plug it but they are in a huge need right now.

Is your shelter on Facebook?

kensfishing · Post by **kensfishing** » Thu Jun 23, 2011 12:32 pm

I raise these GSPs for the enjoyment of it. I own 14 and have Tony's four, a divorce is why they're here. But I hunt dogs for the love. I trial dogs for the love. I train dogs for the love. I feed and clean them every day. I put them in when it's cold and out every day. For the love. If it was for money I'd be broke, which all of my time and money goes to the dogs. It's the love to see what can be produced and well they turn out. My Sam is one I kept because no one wanted him. He's eight and wouldn't give him up. Stewy and a couple more the same. It's for the love of animals. Period.