Barking at Children?

media310 · Post by **media310** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:53 pm

My 10 month old GSP has started barking at children and I am getting a bid worried..

First time - We were hiking here on the ranch when all of a sudden she starts barking really loud, when I came around the corner she had herself between me and 2 children under the age of 10. All I could do was turn her around and walk home to stop the barking.

Second time - Few days later were getting takeout parked across from the skateboard park and she is giving the same loud bark at the kids hanging out. Again most were under 10 and they were not even on there boards.

Third time - This happened over the weekend, a friend brought there 18 month old over. At first Char was cool sniffing and licking then started the same deep growl again. I was very upset as were the parents..

Fourth time - Today a ranch worker was outside with a little boy 2-3 and Char was once again barking up a storm..

Thoughts suggestions?

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:02 pm

You now it is something to be concerned with but it would have been interesting to have seen all the body language. Like ear & tail position or whether any hair was raised. There is a Second Fear Stage in a puppy's life where normal things bother them for a bit. Dog can be aggressive during this period.

Look in the Milan books to see if there is a similar case.

Good luck

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:03 pm

Has a child ever been rough with her or teased her that you know of, or is it possible you may not know this has happened?? although i will get some flack for this i will tell you what i do when i get a rescue dog that barks or growls at my kids (i have 5) or if it growls at ANY kids..i put a muzzle on the dog and bring it around as many kids (that know how to properly pet a dog) as possible..let the dog be around many many kids, one or two at a time not all at once..the muzzle prevents the chance of a bark or growl leading to a bite and protects everyone involved but the dog gets the exposure to the kids in a positive way by them being gentle and walking away..i have ALWAYS had success with this method..i use the muzzle if i get a dog aggressive dog as well and i put the muzzle on and take the dog to the dog park around other dogs i know are friendly (im a regular there

) and its ALWAYS worked..one things for sure you are getting early warning signs from your pup so take them serious and nip it in the bud right away..good luck..ruth

media310 · Post by **media310** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:07 pm

Gundogs,

Great post, she was adopted 2 months ago. The family I picked her up from had young children..Hmm
~Thanks for the muzzle tip!

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:26 pm

media310 wrote:Gundogs,

Great post, she was adopted 2 months ago. The family I picked her up from had young children..Hmm
~Thanks for the muzzle tip!

ahh could be the kids she use to live with maybe they roughed her up or teased her a bit..some people have issue with muzzles being used BUT like i said ive ALWAYS had very good success with it and one thing i will add is when the muzzle is on her and you know a child cant get bit, you are relaxed so the dog is relaxed as well.. i will also add that i always make putting on the muzzle a positive experience, its important how you go about putting it on..i put a treat inside of it let the dog eat the treat out of it and pet the dog or pup praising him/her telling them GOOD BOY/GIRL and the tail is going and they are ok with it being put on, it doesnt have to be on long and in the beginning you can put it on just for a few minutes pet her up and praise her and take it off then work on bringing her around kids with it on, she wont need it and the barking will stop as soon as she sees kids can be trusted and theres no reason to fear them or dislike them

...ruth

Swagg · Post by **Swagg** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:29 pm

What sort of corrections did you give when she started to act out?? And has she ever been around children before?

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:31 pm

Put your dog on a leash and teach her some manners, including "LEAVE IT." She is headed for disaster if you don't. We work with dog reactive dogs, so I won't offer any suggestions for desensitizing to children other than the dog should never, ever be allowed to reach them. You might have a look at a REAL dog trainer's approach, also.

http://www.siriuspup.com/behavior_problems.html#

Sue · Post by **Sue** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:36 pm

Children can be seen by some dogs as so different from adults, that they are a whole other type of thing you need to socialize them too, sort of like getting your puppy used to horses and cattle (not trying to insult kids!)

The barking is because the puppy is a little concerned/nervous around kids. Especially little kids, make erratic motions and noises are are very confusing for some dogs to figure out. Puppy is telling you how he feels, and also telling the kids to keep a distance.

So the way around this is simply to provide opportunities for puppy to have good experiences with kids. Of course childrens' safety is the number one thing, so supervise all the time! Don't let kids crowd the dog or hug the dog. Keep the puppy under control on a leash and allow the kids to play nearby. Do something positive with the puppy, such as play with a toy, or the simplest most effective thing, is to feed puppy treats or pieces of kibble. Instruct the puppy to sit calmly and keep his focus on you. Soon enough the puppy will come to associate kids with good things. And in time puppy will get used to the noises and movements of children.

Our Tessa used to be very nervous around my 3 year old grand nephew. He is a very active boy, and likes to pretend to be a dog and actually barks at our dogs! That was really scary for our pup! What we did was just to carefully manage the situations with the two of them, making sure the young lad would not tackle our puppy or otherwise frighten her. We made sure she had a place to retreat to, so she was not cornered. With just about half a dozen exposures (of several hours of family get together each) over the next year, Tessa learned that the boy is just a boy, not a scary monster. She no longer barks and is quite tolerant of the child.

That's a long answer.
The short answer is this is all about Socialization. Keep things calm and positive and well managed so puppy is not overly frightened. Watch the puppy for signs of stress and remove the puppy from the situation if he gets overly nervous. Give him time and gentle exposure with positive associations and he'll come around.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:00 pm

As soon as attention directs off me that is cause right there for a redirect specially when kids are involved I would give a serious redirect no words just an abrupt get your mind off other things and back on to what we are doing.

By the time your dog is growling there was a bunch of signs his mind was no longer on what you were doing.

granted something triggered this in your dog but you need to untrigger it before it becomes a liability to you

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 7:05 pm

I don't blame the dog, don't like kids either.....lol jk

Swagg · Post by **Swagg** » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:04 pm

kninebirddog wrote:As soon as attention directs off me that is cause right there for a redirect specially when kids are involved I would give a serious redirect no words just an abrupt get your mind off other things and back on to what we are doing.

By the time your dog is growling there was a bunch of signs his mind was no longer on what you were doing.

granted something triggered this in your dog but you need to untrigger it before it becomes a liability to you

I agree. If you just remove the dog from the situation basically he wins. When he barks and growls he gets to get away from the kids. I will not tolerate any growling at children from any dogs so as said a serious redirect........... the toe of my boot comes to mind

Sue · Post by **Sue** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 5:36 am

Swagg wrote: I will not tolerate any growling at children from any dogs so as said a serious redirect........... the toe of my boot comes to mind

Yes, I agree this is a dangerous situation, and adult action is crucial to protect kids. Its a tough problem to solve. Let me just caution that there is some fall out to too much discipline in this sort of situation. If you discipline the dog for giving the warning signals of his discomfort/fear of kids, you can indeed stop the growling and barking, but the dog still has the same emotions in his head. Now what you may have created is a more dangerous situation. The dog APPEARS to be tolerating kids OK, so the adults start to relax, but in his head, he is still uncomfortable with kids. One day a child dives in for a hug, pushing the dog over his threshold, and he bites, seemingly without warning.

This is why most dog behaviorists will advise carefully socializing the dog to children so he feels more comfortable with them. (or if that cannot be done, never let the dog near kids)

One more thing I will add. If the dog is disciplined frequently in the presence of children, he will start to associate the children with the punishments, again adding to the problem. Now he sees kids and anticipates the toe of the boot.

Dogs learn what we teach them... that is simple associations. We wish they learned "don't growl at the kids, be nice, be tolerant of them, let them pet me and hug me" but in fact what they have learned is "kids = punishment and more fear"

Sue · Post by **Sue** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:39 am

Cajun Casey wrote: You might have a look at a REAL dog trainer's approach, also.

http://www.siriuspup.com/behavior_problems.html#

Those articles are excellent. Thanks for the link.

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:35 am

Cajun Casey wrote: You might have a look at a REAL dog trainer's approach, also.

http://www.siriuspup.com/behavior_problems.html#

You are joking .....right?

Swagg · Post by **Swagg** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:04 am

Sue wrote:
Swagg wrote: I will not tolerate any growling at children from any dogs so as said a serious redirect........... the toe of my boot comes to mind
Yes, I agree this is a dangerous situation, and adult action is crucial to protect kids. Its a tough problem to solve. Let me just caution that there is some fall out to too much discipline in this sort of situation. If you discipline the dog for giving the warning signals of his discomfort/fear of kids, you can indeed stop the growling and barking, but the dog still has the same emotions in his head. Now what you may have created is a more dangerous situation. The dog APPEARS to be tolerating kids OK, so the adults start to relax, but in his head, he is still uncomfortable with kids. One day a child dives in for a hug, pushing the dog over his threshold, and he bites, seemingly without warning.

This is why most dog behaviorists will advise carefully socializing the dog to children so he feels more comfortable with them. (or if that cannot be done, never let the dog near kids)

One more thing I will add. If the dog is disciplined frequently in the presence of children, he will start to associate the children with the punishments, again adding to the problem. Now he sees kids and anticipates the toe of the boot.

Dogs learn what we teach them... that is simple associations. We wish they learned "don't growl at the kids, be nice, be tolerant of them, let them pet me and hug me" but in fact what they have learned is "kids = punishment and more fear"

There is always more then one way to skin a cat. I never said punt the dog over a hill, just a sharp and meaningful redirect. Check out the dog whisperer, he used his heel but always get his outcome.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:16 am

Ron R wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote: You might have a look at a REAL dog trainer's approach, also.

http://www.siriuspup.com/behavior_problems.html#
You are joking .....right?

No, I am not. Sorry if you don't agree, a lot of dogs have been trained and rehabbed with Dr. Dunbar's methods.

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:21 am

Cajun Casey wrote:
Ron R wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote: You might have a look at a REAL dog trainer's approach, also.

http://www.siriuspup.com/behavior_problems.html#
You are joking .....right?
No, I am not. Sorry if you don't agree, a lot of dogs have been trained and rehabbed with Dr. Dunbar's methods.

I just read the barking and digging sections so that is what I'm referring too. I'm sure he must have helped people in other areas.

markj · Post by **markj** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:28 am

Great post, she was adopted 2 months ago. The family I picked her up from had young children..Hmm

The kids may have messed her up, I would gently re introduce her to a kid or two that knows dogs like my 8 year old son. Pup needs to understand not all kids will hurt it before it decides to progress on to biting. If this isnt possible take a squirt bottle and squirt her when she does this, the water will distract her so you can then correct the behavior.

The main issue is what will happen if dog gets loose and a kid is there, could be a very bad thing for all. I dont tolerate this and this is how Iwould try to correct it. Good luck

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:36 am

Ron R wrote: I just read the barking and digging sections so that is what I'm referring too. I'm sure he must have helped people in other areas.

Keep in mind these methods are primarly designed for urban dogs in a household with one or two animals. The digging program is spot on and a friend has used it with her three big black dog rescues very successfully. She is now using a Dunbar based program, in conjunction with a Thundershirt and some oral calmative to solve an aggression issue one female has with another. The aggression is simply a maturity and status thing, combined with a clash of personalities.

Sue · Post by **Sue** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:46 am

Swagg wrote:
Sue wrote:
Swagg wrote: I will not tolerate any growling at children from any dogs so as said a serious redirect........... the toe of my boot comes to mind
Yes, I agree this is a dangerous situation, and adult action is crucial to protect kids. Its a tough problem to solve. Let me just caution that there is some fall out to too much discipline in this sort of situation. If you discipline the dog for giving the warning signals of his discomfort/fear of kids, you can indeed stop the growling and barking, but the dog still has the same emotions in his head. Now what you may have created is a more dangerous situation. The dog APPEARS to be tolerating kids OK, so the adults start to relax, but in his head, he is still uncomfortable with kids. One day a child dives in for a hug, pushing the dog over his threshold, and he bites, seemingly without warning.

This is why most dog behaviorists will advise carefully socializing the dog to children so he feels more comfortable with them. (or if that cannot be done, never let the dog near kids)

One more thing I will add. If the dog is disciplined frequently in the presence of children, he will start to associate the children with the punishments, again adding to the problem. Now he sees kids and anticipates the toe of the boot.

Dogs learn what we teach them... that is simple associations. We wish they learned "don't growl at the kids, be nice, be tolerant of them, let them pet me and hug me" but in fact what they have learned is "kids = punishment and more fear"
There is always more then one way to skin a cat. I never said punt the dog over a hill, just a sharp and meaningful redirect. Check out the dog whisperer, he used his heel but always get his outcome.

I am very familiar with Cesar. There is a lot he does well, but there are some things he does that result in "shut down" of the dog, which LOOKS like the dog is behaving, but the dog is actually in a very tense state. My reasoning here is that ideally one wants the dog to be relaxed and comfortable around children. It takes longer to get to that goal through careful socialization, but in the end you have a safer situation.
Just my 2 cents.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:27 am

Sue wrote: I am very familiar with Cesar. There is a lot he does well, but there are some things he does that result in "shut down" of the dog, which LOOKS like the dog is behaving, but the dog is actually in a very tense state. My reasoning here is that ideally one wants the dog to be relaxed and comfortable around children. It takes longer to get to that goal through careful socialization, but in the end you have a safer situation.
Just my 2 cents.

Many dogs that just had their world turned upside down and aren't getting away with a behavior they were allow to get away with for a long time will go through the pouts..Biggest thing is if you stick with the new routine the dogs quickly learn there are boundaries to co exist by and they come out of it...some dogs it takes what it takes to get them to change

Just like us we all respond or react to things differently

Swagg · Post by **Swagg** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:36 am

Sue wrote:
Swagg wrote: I am very familiar with Cesar. There is a lot he does well, but there are some things he does that result in "shut down" of the dog, which LOOKS like the dog is behaving, but the dog is actually in a very tense state. My reasoning here is that ideally one wants the dog to be relaxed and comfortable around children. It takes longer to get to that goal through careful socialization, but in the end you have a safer situation.
Just my 2 cents.

I personally know one of the dogs from the show and let me tell you it is a different animal now

on another note, How old was your dog when you got her, any thoughts on why she acted the way she did ?

Sue · Post by **Sue** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:44 am

Swagg wrote: How old was your dog when you got her, any thoughts on why she acted the way she did ?

We got Tessa at 12 weeks old. She was kennel raised to that point, but the handling she did get, I believe was kind. My husband and I do not have children, so her exposure to kids was limited in her first year or so, infrequent, which is why she was a bit spooky of my grand nephew when she first met him. (He is a very active and noisy kid!) She just needed the socialization time. She's fine with him now.

She had the same sort of reaction to cattle, horses, big strange dogs, moose and bear. Of course we've been able to get her used to everything but the moose and bear.

Swagg · Post by **Swagg** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:56 am

Sue wrote:
Swagg wrote: How old was your dog when you got her, any thoughts on why she acted the way she did ?

We got Tessa at 12 weeks old. She was kennel raised to that point, but the handling she did get, I believe was kind. My husband and I do not have children, so her exposure to kids was limited in her first year or so, infrequent, which is why she was a bit spooky of my grand nephew when she first met him. (He is a very active and noisy kid!) She just needed the socialization time. She's fine with him now.

She had the same sort of reaction to cattle, horses, big strange dogs, moose and bear. Of course we've been able to get her used to everything but the moose and bear.

Ahhh that makes sense. I got lucky as I have 8 nieces and nephews that range from 1 to ten so Riley got them all right away. She also gets exposed to horses and other livestock daily

and I dont blame Tess for the moose or bear, I dont think I would get used to them either

media310 · Post by **media310** » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:34 am

Thanks for the link, I will be sure to check it out. I have been trying to socialize her as much as possible. We went to a music festival this weekend and a big 4th of July parade in town the following day. (Amazing how many people stop to talk about GSP)

She seems to do fine when I have her on the leash, no barking growling or anything as of late. I wonder if she was just trying to be protective as the 3 times she barked at kids were the following locations..

1. At the house
2. On the ranch
3. In the truck

Not that that makes it ok..

Sue · Post by **Sue** » Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:32 pm

You might be interested in this book. It explains a lot about how to read your dog's body language to see if she is truly at ease or is actually a bit nervous. Once a dog is already barking or growling, they have already passed through several stages of feeling uncomfortable and have no doubt "signaled" their emotions, but the signals are subtle. You can learn to "see" them very easily once you know what to look for!

http://www.amazon.com/Talking-Terms-Dog ... 222&sr=1-2

There are quite a few good photos and its a quick read.

Hope things keep going for the better!

Siskiyou Blues · Post by **Siskiyou Blues** » Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:19 pm

we managed to avoid this problem.

this was right after they met at the park.

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:39 pm

Such a cute little girl like that deserves the best...........you should have gotten her an English Pointer

.

Siskiyou Blues · Post by **Siskiyou Blues** » Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:01 pm

Oh she's not mine! haha I have a few years before we even start talking about that.
But when I see her again I'll make sure to keep some EP pup pictures in my wallet to try to sell her

oh her dad would be mad!

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