Who would you look at ?

Max2 · Post by **Max2** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:16 am

If you were looking to purchase a GSP pup in NY/ NJ area or within a days drive.Who might you look at if your intentions were to hunt woodcock & grouse ? I would love to hear your experiences & reasons for your choice. If you feel funny to post please PM me. All PM's will be kept confindetial .
Thank You in advance Chris !

BoJack · Post by **BoJack** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:39 am

Bruce Shaffer-Almost Heaven GSP.
http://almostheavengsps.netkennel.com/C ... for%20Sale

Bruce is a breeder of dogs that are proven on both,and he's a dedicated Grouse and Woodcock hunter himself.I've seen his dogs work many times and they are Bird Dogs.

Red · Post by **Red** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 12:51 pm

Give Rob a call, if he can't help you he will get you in touch with someone that can... Won't be sorry...
http://nobellekennel.com/index.html

Hattrick · Post by **Hattrick** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:37 pm

Friedeshein GSP's Donnie Ebersole..... Pm me i can give you sum info on a great fall breeding you will not be disapointed .. its about a 3-4 hr drive from you

Hattrick · Post by **Hattrick** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:39 pm

website my bad http://friedelsheim-gsp.com/

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:49 pm

I would contact Pat Bottino or Tim Clark in NJ. I am sure the NAVHDA website has contact info. I think Pat's kennel is called Tuckahoe.

Red · Post by **Red** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:35 pm

I would contact Pat Bottino

I got my DK from Pat, very happy, I want to add that it was Robert who recommended Pat to me..

He wont steer you wrong..
http://nobellekennel.com/index.html

http://www.tuckahoe-gsp.netfirms.com/index.htm

Byrdgirl · Post by **Byrdgirl** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:07 pm

I'm gonna second contacting Bob Corsaro at Nobelles Kennel in Ridgewood, NJ. He not only produces amazing dogs but he is always available to help with training. We have a 22 month old GSP from one of his breedings and we couldn't be more pleased with her. If you want details regarding our pup and our experience with a Nobelles GSP send me a PM.

Bob has two breedings planned for the next year or so. I would recommend anyone who is interested in a GSP to contact him at nobelleknl@aol.com

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:13 pm

Yes, now I remember Bob. He, Pat & Tim Clark are awesome trainers. They breed some really nice, old school dogs.

Coveyrise64 · Post by **Coveyrise64** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:36 pm

Al Burkhart
Burkhart Kennels, Byron, New York
585-548-2847

Coveyrise64

Max2 · Post by **Max2** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:41 pm

Between the number of posts & PM's it makes for a very interesting thread. Thank you everyone for your input.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:50 am

The contacts posted are good prospects.
The best way to get the dog you want is to KNOW that the patents ACTUALLY hunt the game you will be hunting - don't take someon's word for it. GO AND SEE the parents or at least the dam HUNT. Now is a good time to get on some grouse don't know where they will find grouse in NJ. Grouse,wild bird dogs are not made they are born. With the type of cover you will be hunting you need a cooperative,calm,close working dog.

best of luck

Max2 · Post by **Max2** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:15 am

adogslife wrote:The contacts posted are good prospects.
The best way to get the dog you want is to KNOW that the patents ACTUALLY hunt the game you will be hunting - don't take someon's word for it. GO AND SEE the parents or at least the dam HUNT. Now is a good time to get on some grouse don't know where they will find grouse in NJ. Grouse,wild bird dogs are not made they are born. With the type of cover you will be hunting you need a cooperative,calm,close working dog.

best of luck

Unfortunetly I do realize that grouse numbers are not that great in NJ. I had posted NJ because that is where I am from and my current pup is from. I know a lot of good dog's come out of NJ and wanted to see which breeders were being favored. I live in upstate NY and have good grouse numbers . I currently have a 4 yr old GSP and thought I would like to add one more.

I am a person who likes to research things to the max !

Thanks again all for your comment & suggestions !

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:31 am

Check out
http://www.honeyrunshorthairs.com/

you won't be disappointed

remmy · Post by **remmy** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:24 am

adogslife wrote:The contacts posted are good prospects.
The best way to get the dog you want is to KNOW that the patents ACTUALLY hunt the game you will be hunting - don't take someon's word for it. GO AND SEE the parents or at least the dam HUNT. Now is a good time to get on some grouse don't know where they will find grouse in NJ. Grouse,wild bird dogs are not made they are born. With the type of cover you will be hunting you need a cooperative,calm,close working dog.

best of luck

There are plenty of grouse in the northwestern part of NJ. Other than that, I agree with above.

Wenaha · Post by **Wenaha** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:40 am

adogslife wrote:... Grouse,wild bird dogs are not made they are born...

Really? I have always believed that it took birds to make a bird dog. I guess we should all stop developing and training and go look for that magical dog that is born knowing just what to do.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:05 am

Grouse dogs are made from bird dogs. That's it. AMEN.
Your grouse dog needs to be able to adapt to conditions, bird numbers, and terrain. Just like all bird dogs. Generally close working is defined as gun range, The do need to work close but, close working only means the dog will find the birds you probably would find your self. Some times the dog will be close sometimes it will stretch out some. Depends on what is going on. Not saying an unyielding high strung animal would be your best bet by no means.

Burkhart is a good one.
Tim CLark is also.
Daryl York of CT who is a NAVHDA judge breeds on occasion has some great dogs, not sure of the lines. Daryl grouse hunts, duck hunts, sea duck hunts, travels to hunt. etc.
Other than what you want for coat type and body style, a well bred GSP (bird dog will work well).

Me, I got three GA dogs and a SD dog and one Maine dog. They all work well on grouse, ducks and woodcock. Three of them have been to KA for pheasants and did well. Just can't be.

Yes you should always see dogs in action or get many references from others and get the dog that fits your personality as well.
Edit:
Wanted to add a couple: Not near NJ but, Thunder head kennels in WI for heavier coated dogs. Merry meeting Kennels in ME, (Also Walnut Hills Kennels, GA Snips has great dogs).

mrketmaker · Post by **mrketmaker** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:54 pm

There have been many good choices listed here on this site. Tim Clark is not a breeder he is a trainer not a breeder.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:05 pm

If I recall Tim has had a litter on occassion. Perhaps I am mistaken. Years ago he wanted to breed one of his males to one of my females.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:47 pm

adogslife wrote:
... Grouse,wild bird dogs are not made they are born...

Really? I have always believed that it took birds to make a bird dog. I guess we should all stop developing and training and go look for that magical dog that is born knowing just what to do.

Is that all it takes?
gee, and I thought nose,intelligence,drive, cooperation and exposure are the ingredients that make a quality wild bird dog.
What was i thinking? :roll:
To think, all I needed was a dog and wild birds!

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:20 pm

Seems to be, ADogsLife, that they are saying that it takes exposure to birds in addition to genetics to make a grouse dog. Seems hard to argue with.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:30 pm

Gentetics.
As in born not made?

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:37 pm

:roll:

Wenaha · Post by **Wenaha** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:26 pm

adogslife wrote: Is that all it takes?
gee, and I thought nose,intelligence,drive, cooperation and exposure are the ingredients that make a quality wild bird dog.
What was i thinking? :roll:
To think, all I needed was a dog and wild birds!

Exposure = birds. And it occurs to me that, with my dogs at least, I want a dog to have bird sense, hunts to the front, handles, staunch, whoas when needed, and comes when called. And is steady to wing and shot, of course. Maybe your standards are a little different.

SD Pheasant Slayer · Post by **SD Pheasant Slayer** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 7:30 pm

A VERY STRONG second for Bruce at Almost Heaven GSP's. He's a standup guy with great dogs and I encourage you to get to know him before making any decisions - you won't regret it.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:51 am

adogslife wrote:
Is that all it takes?
gee, and I thought nose,intelligence,drive, cooperation and exposure are the ingredients that make a quality wild bird dog.
What was i thinking?
To think, all I needed was a dog and wild birds!

Exposure = birds. And it occurs to me that, with my dogs at least, I want a dog to have bird sense, hunts to the front, handles, staunch, whoas when needed, and comes when called. And is steady to wing and shot, of course. Maybe your standards are a little different.

bird sense=intelligence
hunts to the front=drive
handles=cooperation
staunch=cooperation
whoas=an obedience command not needed if a dog is staunch
comes when called=reliably is obedience, not needed in a wild bird dog
whoa and come are safety commands,not needed to produce birds

exposure alone will not make a quality wild bird dog
otherwise any dog would suffice
put them on birds and they'll be quality
not so
anyone who has seen enough dogs,logged enough hours,holds a dog to high standards knows what it takes
it takes gentetics and exposure

conformation
a must in wild bird dogs required to hunt for hours

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:22 am

Howie, to clarify, just meaning they need to come in or by on occasion, not be a close working spaniel as their normal range. I have two that are at the edges of my beeper and bells. Others are a bit closer, Med. range. When I have a buddy with me I can put two down, one on the outer edges and the other on the inner circle. They lap ranges. What a deadly combination. Fun to watch especially mid season.

adogslife wrote:
bird sense=intelligence
hunts to the front=drive
handles=cooperation
staunch=cooperation
whoas=an obedience command not needed if a dog is staunch
comes when called=reliably is obedience, not needed in a wild bird dog
whoa and come are safety commands,not needed to produce birds

exposure alone will not make a quality wild bird dog
otherwise any dog would suffice
put them on birds and they'll be quality
not so
anyone who has seen enough dogs,logged enough hours,holds a dog to high standards knows what it takes
it takes gentetics and exposure

conformation
a must in wild bird dogs required to hunt for hours

.

I don't think anyone disagrees with any of this but, any bird dog needs to have the same tools. When a pup is born, weather of a grouse woods line or prairie lines, the pup does not know what a bird is or how it needs to be handled, hence a bird dog with all of what you describe will hunt any upland bird and most fairly well, (depending on the owner) and it exposure/experience handling that bird.

IMO and with the dogs I have and I have seen, they can come from any good bird dog lines that fit your wants of hunt. Take it for what it's worth. Maybe not much.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:58 am

I don't think anyone disagrees with any of this but, any bird dog needs to have the same tools. When a pup is born, weather of a grouse woods line or prairie lines, the pup does not know what a bird is or how it needs to be handled, hence a bird dog with all of what you describe will hunt any upland bird and most fairly well, (depending on the owner) and it exposure/experience handling that bird.
IMO and with the dogs I have and I have seen, they can come from any good bird dog lines that fit your wants of hunt. Take it for what it's worth. Maybe not much.

That's my point, not all dogs have the same tools

The dogs with the traits I described
What about all the rest:
some dogs will never learn to handle the woods properly,some will always be brush busters and some will never be bold enough to enter the thick cover,some will never learn to air scent or ground scent,some will always range to far, some will not search the immediate area sufficiently,grouse are often pelleted and run in the thickest,most dreadful cover available, a dog needs to have the nose,drive,intelligence,independence and boldness to continue the seach without being harrassed by the hunter to do so and the list can go on
I look for grouse dogs who come from lines with these traits

my caution was to stress that some breeders don't hunt only claim to hunt
I don't settle for 'good enough' when I can get better if I travel a few more miles and the breeder can show me their dogs in action in the cover and the birds I will be hunting

nose and drive are not enough to make a grouse dog

Wenaha · Post by **Wenaha** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:08 am

adogslife wrote:
bird sense=intelligence
hunts to the front=drive
handles=cooperation
staunch=cooperation
whoas=an obedience command not needed if a dog is staunch
comes when called=reliably is obedience, not needed in a wild bird dog
whoa and come are safety commands,not needed to produce birds

exposure alone will not make a quality wild bird dog
otherwise any dog would suffice
put them on birds and they'll be quality
not so
anyone who has seen enough dogs,logged enough hours,holds a dog to high standards knows what it takes
it takes gentetics and exposure

conformation
a must in wild bird dogs required to hunt for hours

At last... you recognize that dogs must have birds to become bird dogs, They are not BORN, they are MADE. To whit:

bird sense=intelligence, they learn bird sense from birds.

hunts to the front=drive Wrong - drive can take your dog anywhere, and he may not be hunting. A dog usually has to be shown where he front is on how to stay there.

handles=cooperation It takes field training to get a dog to handle. He is not born knowing how to handle.

staunch=cooperation staunch means that he holds his birds on point. Doesn't have much to do with co-operation, really.

whoas=an obedience command not needed if a dog is staunch Wrong here. WHOA is a basic building block in yard work. You do not need to whoa a dog on birds, but there are many situations when ahaving whoa broke dog is needed.

comes when called =reliably is obedience, not needed in a wild bird dog WOW. You don't want (or need) a dog that comes when called?

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 8:36 am

At last... you recognize that dogs must have birds to become bird dogs, They are not BORN, they are MADE. To whit:

bird sense=intelligence, they learn bird sense from birds.

hunts to the front=drive Wrong - drive can take your dog anywhere, and he may not be hunting. A dog usually has to be shown where he front is on how to stay there.

handles=cooperation It takes field training to get a dog to handle. He is not born knowing how to handle.

staunch=cooperation staunch means that he holds his birds on point. Doesn't have much to do with co-operation, really.

whoas=an obedience command not needed if a dog is staunch Wrong here. WHOA is a basic building block in yard work. You do not need to whoa a dog on birds, but there are many situations when ahaving whoa broke dog is needed.

comes when called =reliably is obedience, not needed in a wild bird dog WOW. You don't want (or need) a dog that comes when called?

When did I say you don't need birds?
What I said was is birds alone are not what makes a wildbird dog
I agree on the intelligence part,never said or implied otherwise
not all dogs have intelligence and it can not be trained
hunt to the front is drive, drive with a dog that has had the correct exposure, a good nose and correct temperment
handling is cooperation,period
unless you are referring to handling that requires more than a wave of the arm, circle around with a whislte or voice,the willingness to not get lost,the willingness to want to hunt?
staunch is cooperation,have you never owned a dog that is staunch because the dog understands that the handler and dog are a team and the best way to get the bird up is to be steady? Teaching a dog to be staunch is teaching a dog to whoa,whoa is not staunch,staunch is given, whoa is obedience,I want the staunch dog
how on earth did you ever come to the conclusion I don't want a dog that comes when called?
simply said it is not needed to produce birds
unless you hunt differently than I do?

argue what you will
birds alone do not make a quality wild bird dog
quality wild bird dogs are born,not made

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:16 am

I would also throw in Grousebend in Pittsbburgh, PA.

I have personally hunted over their stud and he is one heck of a grouse and woodcock dog.

I would recommend Bruce as well. Never hunted over his dogs, but I do know him.

Good luck and go check out the parent sif you can and watch them hunt if possible. This is a big investment in time and money, make the right decision for YOU.

Justin

wems2371 · Post by **wems2371** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:31 am

Everyone's put up people that I would be proud to own a pup from. Bruce has a huuuuuge

litter--just born. Bet it will be a nice one, and I'm excited to see how they develop, as they're sired by a littermate to my Brandi.

Another person I would look at would be Crystal Kennels in NY.

http://www.crystalkennels.com/hunting.cfm

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