The perpetuation of shooting sports and field trials

[Chukar12]

For me the maintenance of our outdoor heritage is prioritized under the umbrella of hunting rights and wildlife/habitat conservation. The latter is the darling of popular culture and the former the red-headed step child. As hunting is important to most of us we should focus on organizations that have a common interest in our volunteering (is that a word?). I joined a discussion spawned on the Yahoo group for the Brittany breed club that addresses the perception or reality of current and future attendance in field trials. It is my belief that the best solution to attendance is to recognize a gateway to field trials is other competitive and testing venues.
It has been apparent to me through the years that hunters, testers and other competitive venues seek recognition in titles and representation in the breed club to participate. (Read write a check to support the organization). I believe the breed clubs need to reach out and try to create a sum total that is stronger than the parts and pieces. My current blog addresses this if anyone is interested.
http://jggundogs.com/blog/
Joe

[ezzy333]

For the perpetuation of any activity you must have participants. And if people are going to participate they have to enjoy it and want to come back. Our venues that are struggling need to start thinking about what they can do different or better to entice more people to try it and then to come back. I think we all need to start thinking about what can we change that will bring more people to the event and then what do we do to make them enjoy it enough to want to return. The answer you get from many of the old timers that are still there is nothing. But that is not the answer. If the same people are winning all of the time then maybe we better start looking at some other way to get the newbie to stay. I do think we have a mentality that if I enjoy it then we don't need to change it, but truth is we do. Better communication and especially better socialization at the trials would be a great improvement. More walking events is another. And there are hundreds of others but I do think that welcoming new comers and socializing during the event instead of all of the regulars bunching up together would make a huge difference. What else is your best idea? Think about your personal experience and lets get some ideas.

Ezzy

[Chukar12]

Well Ezzy, we are short on opinions here so let's see what is on each others mind...

I am in agreement that we need participants, I even agree that in general a more comfortable indoctrination at a trial with an official tour guide or ambassador that is not polorizing or abrasive would be of benefit...and clearly these people are plentiful on the trial grounds . However, this does not in my mind address the the more comprehensive solution. I think the breed clubs are too closed up. Other venues do not have the same barriers to entry as a field trial. It is an expensive game with specialized interests, especially when you consider the horseback events. However, it also has performance standards and performance possibilities that are unique enough to be attractive to a market segement. I believe that only a select number of people with dog interests will gravitate into these type of trials through the formidable barriers, not the least of which is time and money, and this is why I believe many of the participants are older. If the other venues are connected to the breed clubs and share in the magazines, web sites etc... it is likely that they will be more familiar and comfortable should they care to cross over when its financially possible.

by ezzy333

If the same people are winning all of the time then maybe we better start looking at some other way to get the newbie to stay.

I am not sure i follow you here...? Can you clarify?

Thanks, Joe

[Mountaineer]

It would appear to me that a small part of hunting, out of the whole, involves dogs.
Being involved in the "darling of popular culture" would therefore seem to pay the greatest dividends of the two....as it involves those other than we who find dogs important and critters other than that titled game.
Especially so if the access angle is addressed along with habitat/wildlife.
'Bout the only time I have heard access uttered re trials is when trial grounds get reduced or eliminated.
Untill I see trials(ers) address the sorrowful issues with our NFs or the loss of traditionally open hunting acreage on corporate ground then I will concentrate on the darling of the pair.
There, I have at least seen token acknowledgement past their own ox.

[steamer]

as a newbie i would agree being a little more open at trials would help . this is not to say the few trials iv been to havnt been fun and i learned some of the rules so when i get my dog ready we can play to . i also meet alot of nice people . i think some free/low cost puppy trials or mock trials with some training involved would help get people interested.

[Dashin Gun Dogs]

POLITICS: Well when AF stopped allowing the shooting of birds in a trial the numbers went way down.
IDEOLOGICAL: There is a definate division between hunters and trialers. There are those who do both, but in general an average hunter isn't intersted in trialing. Many trialers feel like their dogs are elite compared to the average hunter.
MONEY: The next issue is money.
PR: The next issue is a few generations of panzies. We live in a world where everyone wants a ribbon.

[Chukar12]

So I have more to say about this topic and some response to the comments when time permits.

In the mean time, for those in California interested in learning about trials from some learned folk there is a great option coming up put on by the Oakdale Bird Dog Club 8/13 and 14. The information is on the Region 11 AFTCA site. it has walking stakes, kids stakes, etc... It is on Sheldon Twer's training grounds and it will be newbie friendly. The trial is in central California a reasonable drive no matter where you live in the state (well...by my willingness to put in effort to go watch dogs). I will not be at it as I have committed to a different venue that weekend but I would reccomend it for experience and especially if you have a young handler.

[Chukar12]

by Mountaineer

'Bout the only time I have heard access uttered re trials is when trial grounds get reduced or eliminated.
Untill I see trials(ers) address the sorrowful issues with our NFs or the loss of traditionally open hunting acreage on corporate ground then I will concentrate on the darling of the pair.
There, I have at least seen token acknowledgement past their own ox.

So, back to my soap box. I disagree whole heartedly. Dog people who hunt in particular are a far more committed group as a whole than the casual hunter (there are huge number of one week...two week a year deer hunters). Those who achieve a measure of success in the competitive venues are in general deeper in still, this is true as well with big game hunters (see who supports the various wild sheep organizations, they are crazy about sheep and spend tons of dough) and its true with people who become more than the casual or recreational fisherperson. I am not suggesting one is more righteous than the next, maybe the premise of competition and records with wildlife resources is distasteful to you...its a fair argument and an understandable point of view. My point is, they spend time and money that rolls up specifically to the conservation efforts, so by proxy their support is far greater than you are giving them or their "ox" credit for.

We cannot directly steer the passions or morals of our peers in the outdoor sports, what we can and should do is find commonality enough to support the perpetuation of sports as a whole. In my mind these two idealogies are similar; fewer obstacles for business creates an environment for production, that creates jobs and wealth in the masses that creates tax revenue and in a parallel scenario More outdoor participants (hunters, trialers, fishermen etc...) creates a stronger lobby if organized and creates more revenue for conservation efforts again if by no other means than by proxy through the built in spend.

Now, that is far more political and detailed than was meant for my original purpose...MOUNTAINEER ...go argue with Ryman

The AF crowd is pretty clear on their purpose and I believe that their clarity allows for an understanding of what to expect when you show up. A very, limited number of potential competitive dog people will enter these competitions as the barrier and commitment is high. It will however survive for at least the near future because those who perpetuate it are extremely passionate and willing to fund and govern it in a vacuum.

My thoughts are with AKC breed clubs, their revenue generation and power could be increased (in my estimation and this is the point I am hoping to debate) with the inclusion of other venues even if it is no further than shared recognition for success in their media and publication outlets.

I am curious about how many Brittanys for instance compete in NSTRA and how many are due paying members in the ABC...why would they be?

[kninebirddog]

I run NSTRA and am an American Brittany Club Member I also get The American Field

[Chukar12]

you dont count...you are a part of the aforementioned myopia. You are a dog freak and perhaps just a freak in general

Arlette...actually though you may be the perfect Litmus...How many NSTRA people are a part of their breed clubs, a percentage estimate that I acknowledge is just your educated guess?

[kninebirddog]

Unfortunately over all the number is low..Mostly because many feel ousted by their own breed.. Nothing like being called wild eyed killers and sloppy or untrained because we elect to play a different Game and put in the same time and efforts to get our dogs to be successful in the Game we chose to play...I mean there are times where I have also wondered why I keep sending my money and keep supporting...bottom Line it is because I believe in the Brittany and also believe they are a terrific breed doing the very thing they were bred to do and that is PLEASE THEIR OWNERS and hunt or do agility or obedience hunt test shows trials of what ever kind etc.

but There is a good handful of people who are ABC members as they are pretty updated on what dogs are doing what via their ABC mags

[Chukar12]

This is what I suspect Arlette..

What about you GSP, GWP, Vizsla, Weim folks who run NSTRA, BDC, et al. Do you participate in your breed club as well or only in the competitive venues?

[Sharon]

Yes. When I had GSPs I participated in the local clubs and the Canadian GSP Club.

[Dashin Gun Dogs]

I have been apart of the ABC for several years. I am also apart of NSTRA. Many of the ABC members started in NSTRA or NBHA and moved into the horseback arena. There are foot trials in ABC, but many here are horseback competitors.
The truth of the matter is this stuff cost a lot of money, land, and time. The availability of all 3 of these is hard for most people to attain. Then you go to a trial and listen to a bunch of bickering. I can see why many dont trial.

[JKP]

I think trialing is in part the victim of its own success. I don't need to trial to get a good dog....heck, half the NAVHDA GSP pedigrees are knee deep in competition dogs...they are trainable and with the help of a few buds on the weekend, you can have a nice 200 yd "bootlicker"...which is what 90% of folks are comfortable with anyway.

IMO....trialing has a PR problem...it is a game that is mainly played by pros or pro quality amatuers...its expensive...and also rans, no matter how good, are considered second class. I also think a whole lot of folks don't understand why they need to ride horses when they hunt on foot. I understand the contribution of trialing but IMO, you've done a poor job of selling what you do. In the 1950s, trialing was the only game in town and you could move 25 coveys before lunch....IMO, trialing didn't keep up with the times.

The next issue is a few generations of panzies. We live in a world where everyone wants a ribbon.

Well....in part. We also live in a world where folks have more to do than chase a dog out of sight on a horse. Right now we live in a world where having a job is a good thing and where the 1000s of $$ it takes to compete might not be so readily available. The vast majority are just hunters who have limited time afield....they slay the dragon every day...week ends should be fun.

[Chukar12]

I agree, I don't think you can or should try to "sell" trials, and JKP your reasons are close enough for me without elaborating. I think HB trials are for a limited few, Dashin describes resources that just aren't going to be available to all. This is why I believe that the breed clubs should embrace the other venues, they are a gateway to the few that do decide to trial. I am simply thinking strategically and trying to create some type of "vertical integration" model that maximizes revenue for a common purpose and eliminates waste. I would not try to justify the trial format anymore than I would tolerate a demand for change from someone on the outside looking in.

To each his own I say, but where a partnership makes sense find the common ground. We are looking for the best and the brightest in dogs and breeders, that comes from those with commitment and experience...

[ElhewPointer]

The next issue is a few generations of panzies. We live in a world where everyone wants a ribbon.

Well....in part. We also live in a world where folks have more to do than chase a dog out of sight on a horse. Right now we live in a world where having a job is a good thing and where the 1000s of $$ it takes to compete might not be so readily available. The vast majority are just hunters who have limited time afield....they slay the dragon every day...week ends should be fun.

This has always been the case. Trials were going on before the great depression and still did well. It cost money then as well. I agree with the, everyone wants a ribbon, idea. Look at how many trial formats have formed in the last 20 or less years. Couldn't compete with the big boys, so we'll start our own game, etc... Everyone gets spread out then we all die off. Same as all the wildlife benefits. Used to be DU and Pheasants Forever. Now there is something for turkeys, quail, elk, whitetails, muleys, ect.....

[JKP]

This has always been the case. Trials were going on before the great depression and still did well.

What did the profile of the average competitor look like back in those glory days??? Just how many of the southern estates are still keeping a "stable" of dogs with full time trainers??? I think you'll find that if you take a closer look, things have changed. So how many plumbers, truck drivers, high school teachers, pipe fitters, etc ran their dogs this year at Ames???

I hunted a lot as a kid and I don't remember anyone that had trial dogs...well beagles maybe. But the bird dogs were just local bred dogs that found birds...mostly Setters....they all worked close...and we all walked.

For $1000 bucks, I can finish a dog through a UT and have a nice all around dog for foot hunting. If folks enjoy the head to head competition...fine....but most are just looking to get out the few days a year they can get away to go hunt.

Please...I think every breed is better off because of the money and time trialers want to invest....its just its tough to sell...especially in these times. I have never been to an AF trial but the AKC trials I have seen here in the east just don't look a whole lot different to me than some of the braces I have seen run at the Invitational....snappy running 2-300 yd dogs with some style and manners on birds....a lot of those pups out there....and you FT guys should feel proud about that.

[Gordon Guy]

Chukar12,

"I believe the breed clubs need to reach out and try to create a sum total that is stronger than the parts and pieces. "

Are you saying that the breed clubs should be independent? And that their independence will allow them to be affilated with and support all dog sports organizations i.e...AKC, AF, NSTRA, NAVDHA, and so on...

I may be incorrect here but I believe that the Gordon Club of America is only affilated with AKC and if they were independent they would be free to support NSTRA , AF and so on. Gordon owners would feel like their club is supporting them better, therefore, I (and more like me) would be more likely to support the club with my membership dues. The Breed club would get stronger and have more influence because of increased membership...

You use a few $.50 words and my brain just can't follow at times

[Chukar12]

GG,

I am saying that the breed clubs should embrace multiple venues for exactly the reason you stated... revenue generation to support the breed as a whole. If they have exclusivety with the AKC I am unaware of it, as there are multiple trials put on in the GSP and Brittany world that are dual sanctioned with the AF... and I would suggest that it is more likely they brain stringing the words together incoherently that is the problem, i.e. mine... than yours...

Joe

[kninebirddog]

There is nothing that stops a breed club for acknowledging other formats AKC doesn't do any thing other then sanction the AKC events and record win records. They have nothing to do with the Breed clubs Magazine

the breed clubs do their own new letters magazines and their own Hall of fames AKC nor American Field has anything to do with them they do not regulate nor do they acknowledge them.

So if someone chooses they could send in the other events winners of their breed to their publisher/editor for inclusion to be shared in the magazine

[PkerStr8Tail]

I think the loss of trialers is directly related to the disappearance of the middle class. The people today that have the money to stay involved have jobs that demand a lot of their time working. When you had a well established middle class that was fueled by high paying trades which worked basically an 8 hours day M-F, they had the funds and time to be involved.

I agree also with the concept that everyone must have success or be a winner with the younger generation has contributed.

[shags]

I think the loss of trialers is directly related to the disappearance of the middle class. The people today that have the money to stay involved have jobs that demand a lot of their time working. When you had a well established middle class that was fueled by high paying trades which worked basically an 8 hours day M-F, they had the funds and time to be involved.

I agree also with the concept that everyone must have success or be a winner with the younger generation has contributed.

That, and the loss of grounds both public and private. In my state there used to be at least a dozen AF trial clubs and nice weekend trials were easily available to just about anyone who'd want to attend. Now there are two AF clubs.
As the State took away grounds, and family farms were divided and sold, trials became fewer and farther away. No longer could the family pile into the station wagon, spend a few hours there, and get home for supper. Now the trip can be 3 or 4 hours one way; it isn't feasible to do that for a half-hour stake, so unless someone can spend the weekend and the corresponding $$, they don't get involved.

[nikegundog]

The next issue is a few generations of panzies. We live in a world where everyone wants a ribbon.

I been seeing this commit, or similar comments a lot lately and just have to ask, what age group does this refer to? I'm pushing 40 and remember my father who "competed" if you could call it that in golf and bowling, everything was handicapped back then so I assuming the "generation of panzies" are probably 70 plus now or am I wrong?

[Dashin Gun Dogs]

My daughter plays soccer and they don't even take score. Kids gotta learn there are winners and losers in life.

[nikegundog]

My daughter plays soccer and they don't even take score. Kids gotta learn there are winners and losers in life.

I completely agree with you on that, but to blame it on a younger generation simply isn't fair since this type of ribbon giving has been going on for 50+ years. Just kind of fed up with people always blaming the next generation for the problems they created. If hunter numbers are declining it is because my generation didn't see the big picture not because the younger generation is to lazy. Like I said handicaps in golf and bowling have been around as long as I can remember and handicaps are about the same concept as not keeping score in a soccer game or is in not?

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

I feel the same way Dashin & think that's the reason we have kids bringing guns to school & blowing people away now days,they don't know how to deal with critisism,failure,teasing,or pressure because nothing is ever their fault.Every body make the team,everyone gets to play,there are no losers.etc & etc so the first time things don't go there way they can't deal with it.
We have parents home schooling because their kids can't function at a public school so how is this kid learning to live in society & get along with others by home schooling.
I carried a pocket knife at school,as did most boys & had my share of fights but I never once thought about cutting some one.We never got suspened or expelled for a fight maybe a detention or swats for repeat trouble makers though I never had either while in school.Swats you sat GOD FORBID that now a days.The mothers of today would come unglued if some one spanked their poor innocent child.My mother would have beat it again when I got home.I guess I was just raised WRONG!!!

[ezzy333]

I feel the same way Dashin & think that's the reason we have kids bringing guns to school & blowing people away now days,they don't know how to deal with critisism,failure,teasing,or pressure because nothing is ever their fault.Every body make the team,everyone gets to play,there are no losers.etc & etc so the first time things don't go there way they can't deal with it.
We have parents home schooling because their kids can't function at a public school so how is this kid learning to live in society & get along with others by home schooling.
I carried a pocket knife at school,as did most boys & had my share of fights but I never once thought about cutting some one.We never got suspened or expelled for a fight maybe a detention or swats for repeat trouble makers though I never had either while in school.Swats you sat GOD FORBID that now a days.The mothers of today would come unglued if some one spanked their poor innocent child.My mother would have beat it again when I got home.I guess I was just raised WRONG!!!

I think when they took God and spankings out of the school was the start of much of our problems. Dr. Spockprobably was the main figure.

Ezzy

[fishvik]

We never got suspened or expelled for a fight maybe a detention or swats for repeat trouble makers though I never had either while in school.

My kid and a buddy were sparring after school far away from the school grounds. Not a fight just fooling around trying some new moves and they were both suspended because some other little wingnut video taped it and put it on You Tube. Not only do we have kids that are being trained to be pansies we have an education system that wants to run every aspect of a kids life and is seriously lacking in common sense.

[Winchey]

Where are all of you people, I thought I was the only one who thinks like this.

[ultracarry]

I feel the same way Dashin & think that's the reason we have kids bringing guns to school & blowing people away now days,they don't know how to deal with critisism,failure,teasing,or pressure because nothing is ever their fault.Every body make the team,everyone gets to play,there are no losers.etc & etc so the first time things don't go there way they can't deal with it.
We have parents home schooling because their kids can't function at a public school so how is this kid learning to live in society & get along with others by home schooling.
I carried a pocket knife at school,as did most boys & had my share of fights but I never once thought about cutting some one.We never got suspened or expelled for a fight maybe a detention or swats for repeat trouble makers though I never had either while in school.Swats you sat GOD FORBID that now a days.The mothers of today would come unglued if some one spanked their poor innocent child.My mother would have beat it again when I got home.I guess I was just raised WRONG!!!

I think when they took God and spankings out of the school was the start of much of our problems. Dr. Spockprobably was the main figure.

Ezzy

Completely off topic post but can be turned around to on topic....

Who are the people what were subjected to such punishment in school? Probably your generation and the two that followed right? Well if you and your two following generations believed it was great to be disciplined in school it would still be going on... you see the younger generations don't have the power or history of power to make changes like your talking about. No 18-20 year old is going to put an end to god or spanking in school... it has to be an idea with a following by someone with power (read your generation) . I think parents should show up to a school and spank their kid on the butt with an open hand in front of their friends if they have done something wrong, and guess what ? In California its perfectly legal and the cops (if called will probably thank you) .

Just like blaming attendance to field trials or shooting sports on the younger generation and saying they need a ribbin, look into what you do and how you encourage participation. I know on the forum I am abrasive and an A hole but I do bring people in first hand and can speak better then I type.... the older generation may have to bend a little bit because the younger generation may see their old opinion as looking down on them (reae above).

Why do you think NSTRA in so cal hasn't taken off? Probably because they set their trials 4 hours north in bakersfield, where the population is smaller then one of the many cities in the inland empire. It's not for lack of interest or lack of property... they made a poor decision and purchased land to hold their trials on.

[kninebirddog]

Sad part about the southern Cal NSTRA it used to have a good following...But here again people started to make the club about Them putting themselves first and they do more about chasing people off then they do welcoming new members.
Until this mentality changes where people put the clubs before their own personal agendas ALL will suffer.

[ElhewPointer]

Sad part about the southern Cal NSTRA it used to have a good following...But here again people started to make the club about Them putting themselves first and they do more about chasing people off then they do welcoming new members.
Until this mentality changes where people put the clubs before their own personal agendas ALL will suffer.

Then those people will go start their own US Complete, NBHA, BDC, NATHA, etc..... Thats how they all start.

[ultracarry]

RP someone else has observed the "we have our own land" philosophy and even though all of the events get canceled due to weather they still refuse to have it elsewhere . The president of the club is very nice but it seems the hard core guys don't want to have it anywhere else. I know a few people who would attend but they fail to look at the fee of joining, entry fees and then cancel the event (one or two for the year) and expect to retain members.

I love AKC field trials, going to start entering my dog in hour GSP stakes and possibly AF. NSTRA would he a good time and would participate. So cal does have a good NAVHDA club with a very helpful group although my only interaction with them was during training, at hunt tests, and field trials.

[kninebirddog]

RP someone else has observed the "we have our own land" philosophy and even though all of the events get canceled due to weather they still refuse to have it elsewhere . The president of the club is very nice but it seems the hard core guys don't want to have it anywhere else. I know a few people who would attend but they fail to look at the fee of joining, entry fees and then cancel the event (one or two for the year) and expect to retain members.

I love AKC field trials, going to start entering my dog in hour GSP stakes and possibly AF. NSTRA would he a good time and would participate. So cal does have a good NAVHDA club with a very helpful group although my only interaction with them was during training, at hunt tests, and field trials.

contact Carl Babbs

[ultracarry]

Lol Carl is a great guy. I'll pm you.....