MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

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MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by remington202 » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:33 pm

Hi all,
I wanted to gather some input on this topic. Maybe it's been addressed before, but I couldn't find it.
Do you agree or disagree with item (2) below allowing the MH title as a qualifier for NFC's? It is effective for years starting 1-1-11. I'd be very interested in hearing feedback as to what other breed clubs do - are they using the MH as a qualifier, or not?

From AKC: In order to qualify as a National Champion stake, a minimum standard of competition must be achieved. The minimum standards are:
(1) There must be a minimum of thirteen (13) starters; (2) The minimum qualification to enter the stake shall be one broke dog field trial placement or a Master Hunter title; (3) At least one series of the stake must be run a minimum of forty-five (45) minutes.
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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by wannabe » Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:38 pm

I disagree; a Master Hunter title should not qualify a dog to enter a NFC competition.

Are there any breed clubs that actually allow this?
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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by remmy » Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:20 pm

Where did you read this? Can you post the link? I checked the AKC website and couldn't find this.
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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by remington202 » Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:30 pm

Here is the link - from last year.
http://www.akc.org/events/field_trials/ ... 060910.cfm
remmy wrote:Where did you read this? Can you post the link? I checked the AKC website and couldn't find this.
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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by Dashin Gun Dogs » Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:35 pm

"Parent Clubs may establish qualifications that exceed this minimum standard." and most do.
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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by Wa Chukar Hunter » Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:35 am

I think that if someone has a MH and wants to run in the NFC - go for it. I think that a MH title is grossly underrated and they should be allowed.
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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by jczv » Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:14 am

gpblitz wrote:I have to disagree. I have seen some real sub standard work pass MH. Exsample that comes to mind. Dog refused to work until handler seperated from myself and judges. Judges passed dog to finnish his MH. Then again maybe judges got tired of looking at the dog!!!
Not to argue but I've also seen enough marginal broke dog placements (a 10 dog field where most dogs crash and burn so an OK dog gets a placement). There's a decent amount of dogs that are nicer then they look when actually getting master passes.

I'm seem to remember the vizsla gun dog championship (it's a walking hour) had the criteria above and a couple people entered there MH dogs. They weren't the best dogs entered but they certainly weren't the worst. Personally I don't see the harm in it - if some MH never trialed dog really can beat everybody more power to them.

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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by Greg Jennings » Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:01 am

Baseball is a great game. Softball is a great game. They're related. But, would you use a team's record in Baseball to qualify them for a softball tournament?

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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by baileydog2007 » Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:24 am

What does it hurt?? The ego's of trialers feeling they are superior and a MH entry is an insult to their game?? Im sure there have plenty of placements given to undeserving dogs due to low numbers, ect. Dont know what it hurts, if the dog doesnt belong, it wont win. If it does belong, who cares how it got there?? Im sure its not very common so it isnt going to lead to a huge number of entrants because of the rule. Doesnt hurt a thing, probably gives the "real trialers" someone to look down their nose at.......................

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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by kninebirddog » Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:41 am

baileydog2007 wrote:What does it hurt?? The ego's of trialers feeling they are superior and a MH entry is an insult to their game?? Im sure there have plenty of placements given to undeserving dogs due to low numbers, ect. Dont know what it hurts, if the dog doesnt belong, it wont win. If it does belong, who cares how it got there?? Im sure its not very common so it isnt going to lead to a huge number of entrants because of the rule. Doesnt hurt a thing, probably gives the "real trialers" someone to look down their nose at.......................

About what I was thinking...I have seen some very nice MH dogs and then I have seen some pretty sorry ones Same can be said of some FC's out there..pick the right trial set up with the right judges many things can get pulled off

One by having this you can get more people paying entry fees More entry fees helps keep those very trials going and either the dog steps up to the plate and the judges look at them or it potters around and the judges and gallery go onto watch the dogs that is performing..and This can be said of any dog entered sure some dogs can leave you wondering how they got lucky enough to make it in but they did and that Owner has the same right as you to pay their entry fees and have enough respect to at least be looked at off the line after that it better keep earning its way if not at least have a good time with the camaraderie to want to come back again

The looking down the nose stuff ..People need to reevaluate what they are doing. If you do not have enough participants trials become a burden ...You need to get enough people and dogs to make it worth a clubs effort ..The costs to even hold trials insurance permits fees ribbons judges expenses etc etc etc..If you don't have enough entries to cover those costs and add the the kitty to help a club stay viable again every one looses.
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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by Greg Jennings » Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:47 am

It hurts by making an already-too-long trial longer yet. It also hurts in perhaps denying a comparable bracemate to the other dog.

To extend the analogy, why not let the local baseball champion team into the travel softball tournament? If you've ever been to a travel softball tournament, you'd understand.

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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by kninebirddog » Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:57 am

Greg Jennings wrote:It hurts by making an already-too-long trial longer yet. It also hurts in perhaps denying a comparable bracemate to the other dog.

To extend the analogy, why not let the local baseball champion team into the travel softball tournament? If you've ever been to a travel softball tournament, you'd understand.
What about those regions that are struggling?

Nothing is perfect ..just playing devils advocate :wink:

and PS if baseball was any slower it would be farming :lol:
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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:11 am

Greg Jennings wrote:Baseball is a great game. Softball is a great game. They're related. But, would you use a team's record in Baseball to qualify them for a softball tournament?
Couldn't say it better. I have no bias towards any title but why would anyone think doing well in one venue should qualify you to play in the world series of another venue. If we do that then show champions, NSTRA champions, NAVADA champions, should all be eligible. And to make sure we provide plenty of space for all of them to take part lets just restrict the number of trial champions that can run.

Sure sounds like our government's way of doing things which all stems from people feeling they are owed. If you want to win then compete, otherwise watch. And that should be true with every venue, not just trialing.

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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by Greg Jennings » Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:30 am

kninebirddog wrote:
Greg Jennings wrote:It hurts by making an already-too-long trial longer yet. It also hurts in perhaps denying a comparable bracemate to the other dog.

To extend the analogy, why not let the local baseball champion team into the travel softball tournament? If you've ever been to a travel softball tournament, you'd understand.
What about those regions that are struggling?

Nothing is perfect ..just playing devils advocate :wink:

and PS if baseball was any slower it would be farming :lol:
We're talking about AKC National Field Trials. Nothing regional has anything to do with it. Maybe some breed has low attendance. If so they have low attendance at their field trials and can get the field trial placement that they need to compete.

While I'm on that thought, perhaps there are breeds, I just don't know of them, where what's expected in a field trial and what's expected in a hunt test aren't different. In that case, there is no softball/baseball situation.

You don't like baseball? I don't really either. Both my kids play lacrosse. It's a danged fast game. But, I thought that more people would relate to baseball and softball, so I translated....

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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by hpvizslas » Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:13 am

remington202 wrote: From AKC:2) The minimum qualification to enter the stake shall be one broke dog field trial placement or a Master Hunter title[/b];
The entire reason for this type of requirement is to show that the dog is broke. Most people would not want to see a derby entered in a NFC. The MH shows that the dog is broke enough to not take out another dog in most instances just like the Broke dog field trial placement. It is not comparing baseball to softball or field trials to hunt tests. It is showing that the dog has achieved a level of training that they should be ready for the competition, doesn't mean that the dog will preform flawlessly but that they should have the background to be polished and trustworthy. JMHO

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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by Greg Jennings » Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:24 am

If it's only to show that the dog is broke, then why are American Field placements or NAVHDA UT1 or VC not allowed?

Seems to me, it's just a bad requirement and should be reworked. My idea is that it should make for a better trial and an all around better experience.

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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by phermes1 » Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:34 am

The VCA does include a MH title as a qualification for the hour-long National Gun Dog Championship. Personally, I always took it as another way of encouraging people to compete. The NGDC gets decent entries but could stand to gain a better footing, and one way to do that is encourage entries. They're already out there, they're already handling their dog from foot, they already must have some sort of clue about what a broke dog is - why not get them out to compete? Maybe they'll get into it, then you've got 1 more person into the field trial game.
Of course, a national championship really isn't the perfect place to bring in new blood; local trials are. But then, what is the real harm? I have a bigger issue with a derby win permitting a dog to run in limited stakes. At least the MH dog has proven its broke.

Anyway, while I've seen some awfully boring MH's, I've also seen some very nice ones. I've also seen some awfully boring field trial dogs eke out a 4th place because everybody else busted. Both can and DO run in national championships. I see no reason to consider a MH dog as any lesser of a qualifier.

Just my .02. While I do see where y'all are coming from, I personally just don't have a big problem with it.
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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by phermes1 » Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:35 am

Greg Jennings wrote:If it's only to show that the dog is broke, then why are American Field placements or NAVHDA UT1 or VC not allowed?
Good point.
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DC AFC Valley Hunter's Southern Comfort CD MH NA NAJ, UT Prize II, "Shooter"
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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by kninebirddog » Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:37 am

Greg Jennings wrote:If it's only to show that the dog is broke, then why are American Field placements or NAVHDA UT1 or VC not allowed?

Seems to me, it's just a bad requirement and should be reworked. My idea is that it should make for a better trial and an all around better experience.

remember AkC is all about Cha Ching Cha Ching Cha Ching.....they don't care every entry is Money for them

With registries being on a sharp decline they are trying to come up with ways to over come..Look at the "Q" registry stuff

Give them a bit try and bring in the others.

Look at the new stuff they have brought in pushing to bring in more money The Grand Champion this one i can far understand better then the Breeder of Merit..Sorry that is a complete Joke basically they are trying to get a breeder to not only register their litter but then turn around and register each pup in that litter and get a piece of paper like it really means something..Sorry but AKC is really beginning to act and look desperate which is only degrading themselves in the long run
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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by hpvizslas » Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:51 am

Greg Jennings wrote:If it's only to show that the dog is broke, then why are American Field placements or NAVHDA UT1 or VC not allowed?

Seems to me, it's just a bad requirement and should be reworked. My idea is that it should make for a better trial and an all around better experience.
Because this is the AKC that we are talking about. They don't want to acknowledge that there are other venues out there for people to compete in.

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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by shags » Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:57 am

If the MHs are competitive to run in a NC, then why don't they have their FT gundog placement? It's easy, right? All you gotta do is get around clean while everyone else crashes :roll:

A national championship should be about more than showing broke.

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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by Greg Jennings » Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:09 am

So, it's to show that the dog is broke and protect the AKC revenue stream? Reference earlier comment about being a bad requirement and needing to be reworked....

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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by remington202 » Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:19 am

After reading responses, would anyone's answer change if your breed club's NFC attracted, say, 12 & 18 entries, respectively, in the past two years?
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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:24 am

How many NFC needs more entries,I know the GSPCA Nats don't the trial lasts almost a month now.The OGD stakes is already around 100 dogs if anything they should make it harder to qualify not easier.
It has got so big it runs into the NAT Phez Ch.Some handlers are going to quit running all stakes & just concentrate on AA or futurities.JMO

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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by ultracarry » Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:26 am

The reason why they don't allow NSTRA AND NAVHDA dogs qualify is because they don't make any money off of them. Different registration fees etc.

In field trials and hunt tests its all up to the judges discretion. There is one definite judge who is a very nice lady who does not have a clue what she is looking at, can't see over 50 Yds and seems to prefer dogs who cant run but look like they are in the show ring. So certain dogs who get placement were because they had good "bird work" which is only a piece of the entire package. (thank god there is usually a more experienced judge calling the shots and letting her hand out a fourth)

I have also seen master dogs who are being hacked and intimidated by the handler while he kicked every single bush in front, left, and right of his dog who miraculously passes even after he melts on point. Some dogs are pathetic where ever they run and you just hope the judges don't pass them because they completed the task. Because you know darn well once the dog has MH after its name people will breed to it without a thought. The real crime wouldn't be entering the dog in a national field trial, but breeding it.

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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:37 am

This is a great example of where our society and our government is headed. Everyone is owed the chance to the NFC whether they qualify or not. So we open up the venue championships to dogs that haven't even participated. And the worst part is they will get in and dogs that have qualified legitimently will be denied when the stakes get too big to handle. Kind of like the argument we had a couple of years ago about dogs qualifying for the Brittany Fiekd Trial HOF. Had people arguing then that dogs that never participated in a trial should be allowed in. What ever happened to the idea that you should earn your own way rather than thinking everything is owed?

I think we all know trialing is a lot more than seeing if a dog is broke and also a lot more than providing income to AKC. Those are arguments that are designed to again say we are owed and we shouldn't have to earn it.

I don't care how many MH titled dogs get in but if they really belong there let them prove it during the season. Otherwise lets just give every dog that is a FC a MH title too since that is all they need to qualify.

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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:41 am

In most NFC or NAFC stakes, a derby dog that has placed first in a single derby stake (where the dog does not even have to be steady to wing and shot) is qualified.

I fail to see where a titled Master hunter, even one that got a questionable pass, is not at least as qualified as a dog that ain't even fully broke. They have to have four or five passes to title, I believe, which means they gotta do it with manners at least four or five times.

As others have said, I too have seen Master Hunters that I would not waste feed on, but I have also seen some that were VERY nice dogs. But just so one does not think I am being elitist, I have seen field trial dogs that I wouldn't waste a bullet on either. I have, unfortunately, owned a couple that couldn't cut it.

If someone with a master hunter dog thinks they can do well in a field trial, they should have at it. I strongly suspect that anyone contemplting takeing their MH dog to a National Championship level trial will have run the dog in at least one other field trial with similar requiements(as inGun dog or Alll Age) befoer entering a national competition.

If the individual breed club wants to or needs to limit entries by applying more restrictive criteria, they are free to do so. Having to limit entries is a "problem" that not all breed clubs have.

On a personal note, if I were to be braced with a MH dog, I would be somewhat relieved in that I would have a fairly high level of confidence that if a dog in that brace failed to back or took out a bird... it would probably not be my bracemate's dog...it would most likely be my dog that did the messing up.

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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by Greg Jennings » Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:48 am

remington202 wrote:After reading responses, would anyone's answer change if your breed club's NFC attracted, say, 12 & 18 entries, respectively, in the past two years?
Yep. I'd want it as wide open as possible.

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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by ultracarry » Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:06 am

I think to be qualified it has to have a placement in a broke stake (and it depends how many dogs are entered as to what will qualify).

I also don't care if my dog is running against a puppy who is not broke because sometimes that dog will go in when your dogs on point and just rip the bird out. If my dog breaks then she does and well that's a part of the game. But if the dog stands through the dog ripping the bird out, flushing it in my dogs face, grabs it and runs around my dog... well let's see if that gets noticed. It's all part of the game and it is just a game

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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by Chukar12 » Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:16 am

I think I see this as a non-issue. The breed clubs that have participation high enough to avoid this will by excercising their own restrictions. I have found the judges to be pretty straight forward in hour and championship stakes, if they do not like what they are seing they don't seem to be above ordering a dog up in the interest of saving time. I would guess a time or two of frank criticism and judging will eliminate those that are wasting their time.

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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by phermes1 » Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:33 am

One more point that previous posts just made me think of.

Offhand, I can't think of a single dog that has competed at the VCA NGDC whose ONLY qualification was an MH title. They all had trial placements as well.
There probably have been some, but I doubt there have been many - in which case that qualification hasn't really helped or hurt the entries at the NGDC.
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DC AFC Valley Hunter's Southern Comfort CD MH NA NAJ, UT Prize II, "Shooter"
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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by dan v » Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:43 am

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:How many NFC needs more entries,I know the GSPCA Nats don't the trial lasts almost a month now.The OGD stakes is already around 100 dogs if anything they should make it harder to qualify not easier.
It has got so big it runs into the NAT Phez Ch.Some handlers are going to quit running all stakes & just concentrate on AA or futurities.JMO
Gordons could use more, English Setters could use more and I'm sure Irish Setters would be happy with more. But then again, more numbers doesn't equate to more quality.
Dan

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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by ultracarry » Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:19 pm

Irish setters have a NFT? Omg that would be like watching paint dry in a black room with no lights and white noise.

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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by hpvizslas » Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:56 pm

Greg Jennings wrote:So, it's to show that the dog is broke and protect the AKC revenue stream? Reference earlier comment about being a bad requirement and needing to be reworked....
Greg, I don't disagree that it could be reworked, but I don't see it as a requirement that the dog have a MH after it's name. It is just an option of either the MH or the broke placement. Either or would work. I am also not argueing that the MH would be capable of placing in a NFC but it should have the training needed to run and be given a shot to be judged worthy or not.

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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by fuzznut » Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:50 pm

this is how rumors get started and misinformation gets perpetuated! Do most of you believe in Area 51 too????

From AKC: In order to qualify as a National Champion stake, a minimum standard of competition must be achieved. The minimum standards are:
(1) There must be a minimum of thirteen (13) starters; (2) The minimum qualification to enter the stake shall be one broke dog field trial placement or a Master Hunter title; (3) At least one series of the stake must be run a minimum of forty-five (45) minutes.


What has been posted is the absolute, positive minimal requirements for a dog to receive an NFC title. There were some clubs who wanted to run a National Championship and who wanted the winner to receive the TITLE NFC that had no requirements, other then the dog had to be breathing.

So... let's say the XYZ Pointers held their National Championship, they had 5 dogs entered, and wanted to run for 15 minutes. The winner would be the winner, but they would not receive the NFC title from AKC to be placed on their pedigree. Their club can give any title they wish, but it will not be carried on their pedigrees.
AKC established that in order for a NFC title to be awarded there had to be at least 13 dogs in the stake, and that the dogs entered had to fulfill certain minimal requirements. Stops a club from stuffing 5 dogs that have never run in a trial in their lives, and having 1 broke dog in there and being named NFC.

Now... a club can do whatever they wish, set whatever standards (or non standards) they wish.... but if they do not fulfil the minimal standards for a National Championship, the winner will not receive an NFC title from AKC.
Has little or nothing whatsoever to do with money.....
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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by remington202 » Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:30 pm

Hi there,
How is posting a written AKC rule "starting a rumor"? I don't understand. Different clubs can allow the MH as a qualifier - or not - to enter their NFC, and that is what my question relates to, not what the requirements are to earn the NFC title. I'm only talking about qualifications to enter. Currently, the American Pointer Club does not accept a MH title as a qualifier to run in our NFC. However, our NFC has attracted entries of something like 14, 12, 18 in the past three years. I was trying to gather information relating to - if we allowed MH's to enter, would it help us attract more entries in our NFC, or would it be a waste of time? We are not the GSP or Viszla or Brit club where we have to restrict entries. We need to build participation, IMHO.
fuzznut wrote:this is how rumors get started and misinformation gets perpetuated! Do most of you believe in Area 51 too????

From AKC: In order to qualify as a National Champion stake, a minimum standard of competition must be achieved. The minimum standards are:
(1) There must be a minimum of thirteen (13) starters; (2) The minimum qualification to enter the stake shall be one broke dog field trial placement or a Master Hunter title; (3) At least one series of the stake must be run a minimum of forty-five (45) minutes.


What has been posted is the absolute, positive minimal requirements for a dog to receive an NFC title. There were some clubs who wanted to run a National Championship and who wanted the winner to receive the TITLE NFC that had no requirements, other then the dog had to be breathing. .
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Cathy

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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by Greg Jennings » Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:48 pm

You have a unique situation. I'd be trying to increase entries too. In your case the split between the FDSB and AKC pointers is lurking out there.

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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by ultracarry » Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:05 pm

If they were allowed to run the fdsb pointers the AKC pointers wouldn't bother showing up. Too much point in those FDSB pointers.... can't say that they have too much GSP..

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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by fuzznut » Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:36 pm

Remington... my post certainly wasn't directed to you.. but rather to those who seem to have a knee jerk reaction to anything AKC does ... it's all about the money. Or it's all about not letting certain dogs and people in because money can't be made. Everything is a conspiracy theory.

If your club wanted to allow MH dogs to enter, you certainly can do that. Would it benefit your breed? Only your members can answer that one.

Coming from a breed where our National Ch #'s have dropped as well, I understand the problems you face. The bottom line has to be considered, but I don't wish to see the requirements lowered just to increase the numbers of entries. There are probably MH dogs that could do pretty well, but I guess I feel if they are competitive they should go and get a placement. If the shoe were on the other foot and they held a MH event... I doubt the MH folks would open the FC with open arms without ever getting one single MH leg.
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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by dan v » Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:50 pm

ultracarry wrote:Irish setters have a NFT? Omg that would be like watching paint dry in a black room with no lights and white noise.
Perhaps you should head to Booneville around Nov 1st and see first hand. They do have some fine bird dogs at the NFT.
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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:52 pm

fuzznut wrote:Remington... my post certainly wasn't directed to you.. but rather to those who seem to have a knee jerk reaction to anything AKC does ... it's all about the money. Or it's all about not letting certain dogs and people in because money can't be made. Everything is a conspiracy theory.
You are so right. Seems there are always people who know everything about what someone else or some organization is doing better than they do. And they have no more information than the rest of us but sure think they do. Got to be a conspiracy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:55 pm

Wyndancer wrote:
ultracarry wrote:Irish setters have a NFT? Omg that would be like watching paint dry in a black room with no lights and white noise.
Perhaps you should head to Booneville around Nov 1st and see first hand. They do have some fine bird dogs at the NFT.
Glad you jumped on this. I've seen some Irish that just might put most GSp's to shame. But it really doesn't matter since there are good dogs in every breed and most experienced people know it I believe.

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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:23 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Wyndancer wrote:
ultracarry wrote:Irish setters have a NFT? Omg that would be like watching paint dry in a black room with no lights and white noise.
Perhaps you should head to Booneville around Nov 1st and see first hand. They do have some fine bird dogs at the NFT.
Glad you jumped on this. I've seen some Irish that just might put most GSp's to shame. But it really doesn't matter since there are good dogs in every breed and most experienced people know it I believe.

Ezzy
Guys -

The only fly in that particular ointment is the same one that is swiming in the AKC pointer soup.

The dogs that do well in the Irish Setter Nationals are, very often, dual registered dogs that are, in fact competitive in AF events. I have seen a couple...Speedy Edie O'Floin and her brother and littermate Harry O'Floin. Those two could get it done in just about any company, especially Edie. Sh was an awesome dog.

The dogs that do well at the pointer nationals are, very often, dual registered dogs that are competitive in AF events also.

The two times I attended the AKC pointer nationals at Wye Island, MD, the dual registered pointers were heavily represented and did quite well as I recall.

I have no direct knowledge on the subject of the AKC English setter nationals, but i strongly suspect that dual registered AF/AKC English Setters do very well at the English Setter nationals as well.

RayG

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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:34 pm

Ray,

I think you are right and that applies to all of the breeds as far as I have seen. I kno most of the Brits are and a lot of GSp's too. oesn't make any difference where they are registered as a good dog is a good dog no matter where.

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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:25 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Ray,

I think you are right and that applies to all of the breeds as far as I have seen. I kno most of the Brits are and a lot of GSp's too. oesn't make any difference where they are registered as a good dog is a good dog no matter where.

Ezzy

Ezzy -

There is no question in my mind that there are superb dogs in every breed. I know I have seen outstanding examples in just about every pointing breed.

However, not all breeds of dogs have the same deep reservoir of FIELD TRIAL talent. I am speaking here strictly of field trial capable dogs for two reasons...

First is that, for all their flaws, field trials provide a reasonably objective measure of the abilities of the competing dogs. Secondly, it is virtually impossible to evaluate and meaningfully compare one hunting dog to another because there are simply too many variables and also because the ones doing the evaluating and reporting...are almost always the owner of the dog. Hunt test do offer an objective evaluation of the hunting dog but from my limited experience with them, it seems that many dogs from many breeds are capable of obtaining a senior hunter title(which I think is a testament to the overall high quality that exists in pointing dogs today) and the hunt test is not designed to push the limits of abilities in the way that field trials are.

The pool of field trial talent in the AKC Brittanys is quite deep...probably the deepest of all the AKC breeds. Next I would say is the GSP which has a very large pool of talented dogs in AKC and a smaller, but no less talented pool that are registered FDSB.

There are some differences between the field dogs, as a group, when compared to the conformation dogs in these two breeds , but it is not uncommon for a field bred dog to do well in the show ring or a show bred dog to do well in the field...in these two breeds.

Of the three breeds I mentioned, Pointers and English Setters have a large pool of field trial talent on the FDSB side, but less on the AKC side. The FDSB registered Irish Setters are a small group of dogs, but thanks to the efforts of some very dedicated folks in the breed, there are a lot of talented dogs in that small group. The Irish Setter Club of America has been quite aggressive and successful in blocking cross registration to AKC from FDSB for their breed. The AKC pointer and the AKC English Setter folks have not chosen to fight that particular fight.

In all three breeds ther is a very definite, easily visible difference in what constitutes a field dog and what constitutes a conformation dog. It is rather uncommon for a field dog to do well in the show ring in any of these three breeds and vice versa. Again there are dedicated breeders who are trying to improve the breed in both conformation and performance, but there is a fairly visble split.

RayG

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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by shags » Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:15 am

Some folks confuse how a dog is registered with how it is bred. An 'AKC dog' is not necessarily a lumbering bench-bred dog that dabbles in field activities.

FDSB registration does not guarantee a good trial dog, nor does AKC registration preclude it. A dual registered dog is the same dog whether it's running in an akc trial or a af trial.

And we can't forget regional differences either. It's likely that the same folks attend the same trials in their area, so the dogs we familiar with are the ones we believe are representative of the breeds as a whole, but in fact they usually are not.

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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by Joe Amatulli » Sat Aug 13, 2011 8:02 am

I am a bit surprised on some of the responses on this thread! Who does it heart? That’s an easy question to answer if you have ever judged a national championship and had to watch dog after dog of A. had absolutely NO chance of winning and B. had absolutely No business being there. Trust me it’s no fun when you have to endure that type of punishment, day after day. If you want to run at the nationals compete with everyone else that is also trying to qualify like the rest of us.

Now if your nationals only draws 20 or so dogs, well that’s a different story, but I have seen it too many times where people are trying to LOWER the standards rather that RAISE the competiveness of their game.

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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by Wa Chukar Hunter » Sat Aug 13, 2011 8:23 am

ultracarry wrote:If they were allowed to run the fdsb pointers the AKC pointers wouldn't bother showing up. Too much point in those FDSB pointers.... can't say that they have too much GSP..

Cept - that FDSB Pointers are allowed to cross register to the AKC - unlike FDSB Irish Setters

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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by ultracarry » Sat Aug 13, 2011 8:34 am

Sorry. I was thinking of the larger, flat tail, square jaw side of the breed....

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Re: MH as qualification for National Field Championships?

Post by Vision » Sat Aug 13, 2011 10:23 am

I have seen a GSP complete it's MH and then go on to become a FC & AFC. That dog was one of the more competitive dogs around for a few years. The owner of the dog did not have interest in field trials at first but got hooked after completing the MH on his dog.


Ezzy mentioned how society has promoted what can be referred to as the "Fairness Doctrine". It is not fair that only the winners of sports get trophies so they give out trophies to all kids. It's not fair to fire fighters if the only ones that can pass the test to become fire fighters are a certain race so they lower the test scores. It's not fair to the pros to have to break the dogs all the way so they allow collaring in AKC events. So we just tumble on down the hill toward mediocreville.

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