pointing dogs in retriever hunt tests

[nikegundog]

I see that starting 9/1/11 Gsps, Gwps, Weims and Vizslas will be allowed to compete in retriever hunt testing. I hadn't heard it mentioned yet so I thought I would bring it up. So if someone wants a chance to have their pointer to be the First one with a MH retriever title on them, you better get started.

[LincolnAlexander]

Be interesting to see pointing dogs with 'MH MH' at the end of their registered name

[ben33127]

pigeonhold on the ole ep's huh....

[mcbosco]

I see that starting 9/1/11 Gsps, Gwps, Weims and Vizslas will be allowed to compete in retriever hunt testing. I hadn't heard it mentioned yet so I thought I would bring it up. So if someone wants a chance to have their pointer to be the First one with a MH retriever title on them, you better get started.

4 were added on 9/1 and two were added on 7/1

•American Water Spaniels (effective 4/1/11)
•Chesapeake Retrievers
•Curly-Coated Retrievers
•Flat-Coated Retrievers
•German Shorthaired Pointer (effective 9/1/11)
•German Wirehaired Pointer (effective 9/1/11)
•Golden Retrievers
•Labrador Retrievers
•Irish Water Spaniels
•Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retrievers
•Spinone Italiano (effective 7/1/11)
•Standard Poodles
•Vizsla (effective 9/1/11)
•Weimaraner (effective 9/1/11)
•Wirehaired Pointing Griffon (effective 7/1/11)

[Munster]

Must just be talking about AKC because I believe UKC has already allowed them. I know a few Munsters that have thier started titles.

[Sharon]

Why do just those three pointing breeds get to participate in retriever trials? ( Not that I think it's a good idea.)

[nikegundog]

Why do just those three pointing breeds get to participate in retriever trials? ( Not that I think it's a good idea.)

Five pointing breeds. It was said that they were responding to peoples requests to have them entered, so maybe not enough of the other owners didn't request it. It didn't sound like it was a push by any club, sounds like the AKC is just out to make a little money. I also heard that they have been looking at allowing labs into spaniel test, so I suppose its a only a matter of time before the pointing labs will be allowed into the pointer tests.

[mcbosco]

Why do just those three pointing breeds get to participate in retriever trials? ( Not that I think it's a good idea.)

Five pointing breeds. It was said that they were responding to peoples requests to have them entered, so maybe not enough of the other owners didn't request it. It didn't sound like it was a push by any club, sounds like the AKC is just out to make a little money. I also heard that they have been looking at allowing labs into spaniel test, so I suppose its a only a matter of time before the pointing labs will be allowed into the pointer tests.

6

[crackerd]

Sharon, essentially it's the versatile breeds that have become eligible - spinoni being the first along with WPGs, spins considered the retrievingest of the continental breeds

insofar as working waterfowl. Their eligibility followed on to an expansion/exchange of tested breeds - with American Water Spaniels coming over to retriever tests from spaniel tests, and owners of Irish Water Spaniels (traditionally classified as a retriever) begging their way into the much (much) easier AKC spaniel tests.

Nike, if two Lab owners have asked about entering spaniel (flushing) tests, that's two who ought to have their heads (and wallets) examined - or two who obviously know nothing about spaniel tests and what a cakewalk they are - or maybe they do, and they're show Lab owners. In that case, perfect venue for them.

Conversely, AKC retriever tests - at least at the upper levels - won't be seeing any sudden influx of entries from the NAVHDA crowd, either. Won't hold my breath until I see a GSP or Viz run a double blind off a poison-bird flyer triple. (Remember, in the VDD tests, even at the top level, they're allowed to throw stones to get a dog just to go into the water. Um, the rules are a little tougher in retriever tests of any organization, but especially the AKC's.)

I'm all for the versatile/continental/European breeds joining in the fun - maybe next they'll be allowed to run retriever field trials too, which is how it is in Australia (but nowhere else - yet). But those that succeed in AKC retriever tests will be (very) few and far between. Spinoni notwithstanding - if, of course, they've been trained up for it.

MG

[fishvik]

Cracked, How come Boykins aren't allowed in?

[SwitchGrassWPG]

It is entirely up to the parent clubs to pursue inclusion into the Retreiver Hunt Tests. Titles earned will have (R) following JH (R)... I know a portion of the WPG world has been trying to get AKC to allow and as previously stated, succeeded by being invited to apply in Feb 11, approved in May 11, with particpation beginning in Jul 11. WPGs have competed in UKC events with at least one earning a HRCH.

Jay

[nikegundog]

It is entirely up to the parent clubs to pursue inclusion into the Retreiver Hunt Tests. Titles earned will have (R) following JH (R)... I know a portion of the WPG world has been trying to get AKC to allow and as previously stated, succeeded by being invited to apply in Feb 11, approved in May 11, with particpation beginning in Jul 11. WPGs have competed in UKC events with at least one earning a HRCH.

Jay

Are you saying that the Club Presidents of the four newest breeds have been pursuing this and if so is it in any news letters? I am asking because I heard that this was not the case. I heard this was an AKC decision not the breed clubs, but this is the internet after all.

[mcbosco]

I will check with the Spinoni people and see what they say. I am interested as well.

[Sharon]

Sharon, essentially it's the versatile breeds that have become eligible - spinoni being the first along with WPGs, spins considered the retrievingest of the continental breeds

insofar as working waterfowl. Their eligibility followed on to an expansion/exchange of tested breeds - with American Water Spaniels coming over to retriever tests from spaniel tests, and owners of Irish Water Spaniels (traditionally classified as a retriever) begging their way into the much (much) easier AKC spaniel tests.

Nike, if two Lab owners have asked about entering spaniel (flushing) tests, that's two who ought to have their heads (and wallets) examined - or two who obviously know nothing about spaniel tests and what a cakewalk they are - or maybe they do, and they're show Lab owners. In that case, perfect venue for them.

Conversely, AKC retriever tests - at least at the upper levels - won't be seeing any sudden influx of entries from the NAVHDA crowd, either. Won't hold my breath until I see a GSP or Viz run a double blind off a poison-bird flyer triple. (Remember, in the VDD tests, even at the top level, they're allowed to throw stones to get a dog just to go into the water. Um, the rules are a little tougher in retriever tests of any organization, but especially the AKC's.)

I'm all for the versatile/continental/European breeds joining in the fun - maybe next they'll be allowed to run retriever field trials too, which is how it is in Australia (but nowhere else - yet). But those that succeed in AKC retriever tests will be (very) few and far between. Spinoni notwithstanding - if, of course, they've been trained up for it.

MG

Thanks for the explanation. I'm old so I hate change. CkC hasn't made any changes like that , that I am aware of. Nothing more traditional than A.F. horseback trials. I'll stick to that.

[mcbosco]

In the case of Spinoni, the SCOA initiated the effort. I suspect when the Spins were in, the other National Clubs did the same.

[fuzznut]

The breeds that are considered part of the "Versatiles" were allowed in because retrieving and water work is a very important part of their breed heritages. Each of the clubs was contacted and asked by AKC if they were interested. Those clubs who said Yes have become eligible to enter.
I'm not positive which club got the ball rolling, but think it's a great idea. Why not? There is no downside to them being allowed to test or at least I can't think of any.
Fuzz

[mcbosco]

I am told SCOA started the effort.

[ezzy333]

Sounds like a good deal to me and like it was said, there is no down side. Would be nice to see the pointing Labs in the pointers hunt test also. If a dog points then why should it be excluded.

Ezzy

[SwitchGrassWPG]

As has been posted, AKC approached the "versatile" breed club's presidents and secretaries in Feb 11 with an invitation. If the breed club said yes, then they were in. I'll find the email and post it later today. I know the AWPGA responded soon after the invitation was extended.

Regardless of who feels they started the ball rolling or need to make the claim is irrelevant at this point.

[MOOSE]

I am pretty excited about being able to test in the retriever testing. We use our dogs for duck and goose so it will be fun to test them on waterfowl as well! And yeah I know that UKC allows it I just haven't gotten into those tests yet. But we have a retriever one in just a few weeks close to home so we are going to give it a try!

[crackerd]

Fixed it for you, fish, so the explanation will make more sense:

Cracked, How come Boykins aren't yet allowed in?

A little complicated. The true Boykin parent club never wanted to go AKC in the first place, but along came a splinter group of show people with negligible interest in working gundogs who managed to get the breed recognized a few years ago. Boykins went into spaniel tests, as they were classified as such, and made mincemeat of creampuff hunt tests - that is the few handlers and dogs who ran them. The great majority of Boykins are trained and worked as retrievers, and had been testing for years in HRC (and NAHRA, or playing at AKC-style training, as I've done with mine for both hunt tests and field trials).

The true parent club, the Boykin Spaniel Society, took no position on anything AKC, and even if it had, nobody at AKC would've listened.

But now Boykin owners who would register their dogs with AKC (I'm one of them) are making the case for retriever test eligibility based on their "cousins" (the American Water Spaniel) getting to compete, and it's inevitable Boykins will be in there soon too. Through no motivation nor effort from the sham parent club, however.

Thanks for the explanation. I'm old so I hate change. CkC hasn't made any changes like that , that I am aware of. Nothing more traditional than A.F. horseback trials. I'll stick to that.

Sharon, you can't say the CKC ain't cricket when it comes to gundogs - Canada may be the only country where all the spaniel breeds are eligible to compete against each other in field trials. In the US, only two - springers and cockers - compete in FTs, and they never against each other.

MG

[phermes1]

I read the retrieving test rules, and I'm still a little unclear on how the test is really done. Can anyone talk to me like I'm a dummy and tell me what happens in a retriever JH test?

My oldest is retired from all pointing breed stuff. If there's a retriever test nearby and the requirements look doable - what the heck, why not.

[Dirtysailor]

I like the idea, now I don't have to play around getting dogs registered with another "kennel club" to validate what they do. It is an opportunity for both the new additional breeds and the AKC some $$. So both can get some good from it.

[mcbosco]

Someone told me last night that a group of the "ugly dogs" have been testing in New England somewhere on an unofficial basis for over a year.

[crackerd]

I read the retrieving test rules, and I'm still a little unclear on how the test is really done. Can anyone talk to me like I'm a dummy and tell me what happens in a retriever JH test?

My oldest is retired from all pointing breed stuff. If there's a retriever test nearby and the requirements look doable - what the heck, why not.

No talking to you like you're a dummy, but even AKC junior tests for retrievers can be meaty. A JH test consists of four single marked retrieves - two on land, two on water - at distances of up to 100 yards, with delivery to hand required. (These may be the same marks that are thrown as a double in a senior hunt test, and may have the same distance as a triple marked retrieve at the master level.)

Good for you, going for it, and good luck.

MG

PS Mc, what's this "unofficial" stuff - I ran a versatile in NAHRA master nearly 10 years ago. AKC would occasionally allow "demonstration" dogs into their tests for pointing and spaniels, but retriever tests are so heavily subscribed (and restricted to the retriever breeds that already eligible), there was no need.

[phermes1]

Thanks!

Hmmmm. I might look into that. He can do marked retrieves of that distance pretty good, and to hand isn't a problem, at least for quail, pheasant, or dummies. I haven't tried 4 consecutive retrieves of that distance in a while, though.

What do they normally retrieve? Quail on land, ducks in water, or dummies for either/both?

To what extent are you able to command the dog? I can usually get him pointed in the right direction via hand signals and a whistle. If ducks are involved, he may require an extra 'hold' command in order to bring it all the way to hand. That was our downfall from a prize I to a prize II in NAVHDA UT, but I worked on it and had him doing much better for our next test.

I'd have no intention of going farther - the boy's done far more than I could ever ask for, and I already promised I wouldn't make him learn anything new. But if he's pretty close to ready for a retrieving JH, and it sounds like he is, he might enjoy that.

[nikegundog]

They normally retrieve ducks, there is a chance the duck could be a cripple because they do shoot flyers. Have your dog get use to duck calls and decoys. I believe you're allowed to handle on only one mark (short,crisp handle), although you can encourage them on all. Basically they want a dog to run a straight line to the duck with a minimum of searching.

[fishvik]

Thanks Crackerd for the explaination on Boykins. I know there is a breeder in SLC but do they ever run any tests out here in the Intermountain west where I might see a Boykin work? They really do look like neat little dogs.

but retriever tests are so heavily subscribed (and restricted to the retriever breeds that already eligible), there was no need.

I guess I've never been too impressed with the retriever trials I've seen. There is never any moving water and that is a major element for the areas I waterfowl hunt. They seem to be too heavy on obedience and straight lines than on natural ability and adaptations. Heck I went to an Idaho Retriever Club trial once where there was no water at all even though it was done in the proximity of a reservoir. The excuse for no water trials was the dogs might get to cold. Now while it was February, it was in the Boise area (the banana belt of Idaho), the air temps were in the 50's and there was all open water, no ice, on reservoir. I just felt to call this a retriever trial was blasphemy. Heck a German shepard could have won it.

I always thought a retriever trial with cold, moving water in which the dog was not only allowed, but encouraged to run the bank and a dog was timed from release to fetch to return to hand as part of the trial, along with steadyness in the blind and some blind retrieves would better determine a dogs ability for western river hunting.

[crackerd]

fish, can't argue with a lot of what you've noted, but can explain a little. (And if you think "the excuse was no water trials, the dogs might get too cold" was lame for US trials, what would you say about British retriever trials? "No water period, the retrievers don't do water over here."

Moving water is tough to judge and also often doesn't exist in any proximity to trial grounds. (Trial grounds are precious commodities anywhere in North America.) Judges will use it for blind retrieves to see which dogs will fight a current with handling and hold that "straight line" you cited. But you certainly wouldn't splash a mark in running water as it takes fairness for all dogs from each test right out of the equation. Because the gunner cannot possibly drop a bird in the same spot of running water for every dog - what clusterduck that would be...

The trial season - seasons - are spring and fall, because it's too hot in summer (yes, even the water temps) and ostensibly, too much in the middle of hunting season for trials be held in winter. But you're right about cold water too - to an extent. Our trials are won or lost in the water - because the dogs spend a great deal of time in it. I'm not talking about hunt tests, which also have water though it doesn't factor into them as influential as with FTs. Trials are also won through advanced training - and no trainer I know, pro or amateur, trains in cold water (usually anything below 55F). In fact, the pros all go south in winter in search of warmer water. I said "train" in cold water. Many, mine included, hunt in cold water and may break an occasional sheet of ice. But for the prolonged periods a field trial retriever is expected to spend in the water, yes, it could be detrimental to the dog's health - and more signficantly, to its attitude. (Then you're talking about degrading style, which 98% of field trial retrievers have in spades.)

And not only that, as applies to cold water, but when there is a sudden onset of wintry weather before or during a trial, the judges will even see water refusals from the dogs running blind retrieves. It is what it is with that predicament - but again you have to understand that a FT retriever's water attitude is its passport to the winner's circle. Or not.

A German shepherd might've won the trial you cited if it was a single marked retrieve. But given that trials are won or lost secondarily on a dog's memory - as in remembering the third or fourth bird of a multiple mark - I don't think ye olde Alsatian or any other breed would come close to developing that kind of tractability (and talent).

Well, a Boykin perhaps. But not for marks that may stretch 350-400 yards each and call for going through some rough terrain.

'Fraid you ain't likely to see any Boykins out your way in hunt tests, either - as they're by and large a Suth'un concoction as "the little dog that doesn't rock the boat." Nothing about running water. Out in Idaho, they might call them the "mini-Chessie." Elsewhere they're known as mud poodles because they have an affinity for stick ponds and swamp bottom (and standing timber). Whatever, and wherever, they can do the job - everything but field trials (and perhaps hauling in the legendary 18 pound Canadas. They seem to be stuck on the 13 pounders - but those would be legitimate 13 pounders, not the mythical Canada condors...

MG

[Sharon]

Sounds like a good deal to me and like it was said, there is no down side. Would be nice to see the pointing Labs in the pointers hunt test also. If a dog points then why should it be excluded.

Ezzy

I hope that pointing lab put his tail up or my dog won't know when to back.

[mxdad777]

Sounds like a good deal to me and like it was said, there is no down side. Would be nice to see the pointing Labs in the pointers hunt test also. If a dog points then why should it be excluded.

Ezzy

I hope that pointing lab put his tail up or my dog won't know when to back.

What's your dog do when backing a dog with a stub for a tail???
By the way.....My pointing lab only holds her tail high when pointing a rooster. If it's a hen she holds it straight out.

[fuzznut]

I would be surprised to see pointing labs allowed into any pointing breed venue. Why? Because pointing game is not part of the breeds heritage.

Allowed into a spaniel event? Maybe, since Labs are used now and also then as upland flushing dogs.

But then, I've learned to never say never!
Fuzz

[Sharon]

Sounds like a good deal to me and like it was said, there is no down side. Would be nice to see the pointing Labs in the pointers hunt test also. If a dog points then why should it be excluded.

Ezzy

I hope that pointing lab put his tail up or my dog won't know when to back.

What's your dog do when backing a dog with a stub for a tail???
By the way.....My pointing lab only holds her tail high when pointing a rooster. If it's a hen she holds it straight out.

He sometimes screws up. I always hope we are not braced with a Britt.

[ezzy333]

Sounds like a good deal to me and like it was said, there is no down side. Would be nice to see the pointing Labs in the pointers hunt test also. If a dog points then why should it be excluded.

Ezzy

I hope that pointing lab put his tail up or my dog won't know when to back. :wink

What's your dog do when backing a dog with a stub for a tail???
By the way.....My pointing lab only holds her tail high when pointing a rooster. If it's a hen she holds it straight out.

He sometimes screws up. I always hope we are not braced with a Britt.[/quote]
My Brits have no problem backing my friends Llewand it carries its tail down almost between it;s legs. I have wondered just how they do that nd I think I have figured it out. They back any dog that stops and stands still.

Ezzy

[Sharon]

Sounds like a good deal to me and like it was said, there is no down side. Would be nice to see the pointing Labs in the pointers hunt test also. If a dog points then why should it be excluded.

Ezzy

I hope that pointing lab put his tail up or my dog won't know when to back.

What's your dog do when backing a dog with a stub for a tail???
By the way.....My pointing lab only holds her tail high when pointing a rooster. If it's a hen she holds it straight out.

Now do you think I'm going to believe that?

[mxdad777]

By the way.....My pointing lab only holds her tail high when pointing a rooster. If it's a hen she holds it straight out.

Now do you think I'm going to believe that?

No, not really, but she's only 7 months old so she has plenty of time to learn. lol
But seriously, growing up as a young teen my dad had a Brittany that would only point roosters. When ever she came up to a hen, she would point for about 2 seconds and then flush the hen. When it was a rooster she would hold a point until the sun went down. We never hunted clubs back then, only wild birds, so we thought it was kind of cool. I have no idea how she figured it out, but she did.

[phermes1]

My Brits have no problem backing my friends Llewand it carries its tail down almost between it;s legs. I have wondered just how they do that nd I think I have figured it out. They back any dog that stops and stands still.

Ezzy

When Shooter was maybe 2 or so, he hadn't had much experience hunting with Brittanys. At a NAVHDA training day, we finally went out with one for a little training.
On the Brit's first bird, I handled Shooter over to him for a back; Shooter came up, Shooter saw him ... and Shooter turned and kept going. I guess the tail confused him.

Anyway, I yelled, "SHOOTER?!?!? WHAT ARE YOU DOIN'?!?!?!?" Suddenly, I saw the light go on, "Oh, CR*P, sorry! I didn't realize I needed to back him, too!"
He then proceeded to back the Brit and hasn't had a problem with them since. The look he had on his face still makes me laugh.