Neuter!

Scott Linden · Post by **Scott Linden** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:27 pm

Okay everyone, time to submit your 2/100 of a dollar ... help me out. Why or why not? When? Cautions, rationale, tips, consequences. Thanks.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:10 pm

Wait till he is fully Mature and the growth plates have finished growing and have sealed.

PRO Sure testicular cancer is taking away
CON Bone cancer chances are increased..can remove testicle can't remove cancerous bone
CON can change the structure of the hind in in particular as in Elongated femur bones which ...
CON dogs that are more active are showing to have a higher chance at ACL and other ligament issues when altered early
CON Coat can turn in to a coarse to a thin fray type coat gather weeds much easier for your longer coated dogs
CON incontinence both males and females

In females they are showing the more cycles a female has it is showing for them to live longer then when spayed at younger ages

Good Luck

DougB · Post by **DougB** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:38 pm

The arguments go both ways depending on who you talk to. So does the research. PETA wants the species dog eliminated, rescues want breeding almost eliminated, most people just don't know how much work goes into raising a good litter and getting them into homes.

This is a review of the research.
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/longterm ... indogs.pdf

My personal preference is spay/neuter unless the dog is really good. There are a lot of nice average dogs in rescue at any time and raising a litter can be expensive. My preference would be wait a while and see how good the dog is. Then decide on s/n. If you aren't going to breed, life is easier with a neutered dog.

Scott Linden · Post by **Scott Linden** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:39 pm

Thanks knine ... ditto, doug ... but on that first point - how old is old enough to avoid the growth plate issue? I've been told by "experts," anywhere from 16 to 22 months. Your thoughts?

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:47 pm

Scott Linden wrote:Thanks knine ... ditto, doug ... but on that first point - how old is old enough to avoid the growth plate issue? I've been told by "experts," anywhere from 16 to 22 months. Your thoughts?

I tell people to wait till they are 2 years old if the dog is going to be an active hunting trial dog or highly active type dog agility running partner etc Be responsible Be safe

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:18 pm

Unless there is a medical need, leave him be. Neutering male dogs is essentially a political nanny state plot.

There is not one medical or behavioral benefit to neutering a male.

shags · Post by **shags** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:43 pm

mcbosco wrote:Unless there is a medical need, leave him be. Neutering male dogs is essentially a political nanny state plot.

There is not one medical or behavioral benefit to neutering a male.

My vote, also. What is the point to neutering a male dog, as long as the owner is responsible enough to keep him out of trouble?

Prairie Hunter · Post by **Prairie Hunter** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:01 pm

mcbosco wrote:Unless there is a medical need, leave him be. Neutering male dogs is essentially a political nanny state plot.

There is not one medical or behavioral benefit to neutering a male.

I would agree as well. The only possible benefit would be to eliminate the risk of testicular cancer. However, the risk of testicular cancer so low anyway that it's really not a factor.

nj gsp · Post by **nj gsp** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:07 pm

All our females are spayed, and all the males are intact except for one - and he's a rescue. Unless you are planning to breed there is no reason to keep a female intact. This is especially true if (like us) your dogs live in the house and you have both males and females.

There is no reason to neuter a male, unless (as in our case) you do not plan on breeding the dog AND there are behavioral issues as well such as aggression or dominance. However, neutering a male does not always resolve problems such as those.

It's less of an issue if you have kennels and/or a "hot bitch pen" to isolate the dog in heat. But if your female come into her cycle during hunting season, you are either going to lose out on some field time or run the risk of an unplanned litter or the cost of aborting one.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:59 pm

Scott Linden wrote:Okay everyone, time to submit your 2/100 of a dollar ... help me out. Why or why not? When? Cautions, rationale, tips, consequences. Thanks.

It would hurt, your voice will stay high pitched, you won't have to shave, And it won't hurt so bad when your feet slip off of the pedals. Can't go swimming for a couple of eeks. Should wait till you mature enough to not ask such a silly question. Don't use iodine on the incision. :roll:

Ezzy

smoothbean · Post by **smoothbean** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:26 pm

Unless you have an exceptionally bred male that you will have trouble finding the same lines I don't know why you wouldn't. Also unless you really do something special with him, good luck finding someone to breed their female to him when you want to have a pup out of him when he turns out to be the "best hunting dog you've ever had.Good males are a whole lot easier to come by to breed to than females. I have both intact and neutered males. My neutered male was fixed before he started hiking his leg and peeing on everything. The nice thing about this is when he does relieve himself he is doing it til he is done and not stopping constantly marking every little thing he can. Also I don't think anyone will argue the fact that an intact male will be awfully hard on kennels and the smell is pretty bad from all the marking in the kennel. I also think if you look hard enough you can probably find some study that would make either (neutered or intact) look like the best choice. I think you need to decide what you personally want to deal with and decide for yourself. One reason not to neuter is it seems to kill the resale value. For some reason alot of people think that neutering does something bad to hunting dogs. I think that the hunt is in the other end of the dog. I know this sounds kinda one sided but like I said I have both neutered and intact so I can go both ways. I like to give a reason to do it because 9 out of 10 will give you reasons not to. Must be a guy thing. HEHEHE, it really is up to you and you shouldn't let some of the old tales hinder your decision.

I will attach a photo of my testicular challenged (neutered) pointer.

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:37 am

I'll preface my post by saying of the 10 dogs we own, all are spayed or neutered. I foster for the Showme Vizsla Club and the local animal shelter. I see how many unwanted bird dogs are dumped at shelters or "lost" while hunting and never recovered. I also see how many irresponsible breeders there are out there - and how an average joe might think he's got the "greatest hunting dog ever" and wants a pup from him. The other 9 in the litter are going where????? Most responsible people - and I'd say this forum has a high number of those responsible people - won't breed a dog unless it is proven in some venue or another. Most dog owners do not fall into the category of "responsible breeders" however. I can't tell you how many times I've heard "it was a whoops litter" or we had an "accidental litter". Or my buddy's dog got knocked up when we were hunting. If you can't be responsible then you need to neuter your dog. The testicular cancer issue is real and I believe there is a difference in neutered and intact male dog behaviors, it's common sense that without that testosterone running through the system, the animal will behave differently. Female spaying is a definite no brainer - they live longer and don't develop mammary cancer - which is a big killer - when they're spayed before their first heat. Each subsequent heat brings a higher danger of them developing cancer, period.

And I will say that Rescues are not trying to eliminate breeding - most rescues are run by people who love the breed and do in fact breed dogs themselves.

And finally, IMO, if you can buy a better dog than you can breed - you don't need an intact animal.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:02 am

My wife recently told me of a study on rottweilers that she had seen. Of the rottweilers in the study that lived long lives, not a single one was neutered before the age of 4.

I think that the knee-jerk reaction to fix everything you don't plan on breeding as soon as humanly possible is wrong. No dog should be fixed before it's 2, and unless there is some health or aggression issue that you're looking to address, I see no reason not to wait much longer than that.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:03 am

I think I would much rather have testicles removed when they show signs same with mammary cancer as that is far lower a risk then the increased odds of Bone cancer...The big issue that is on the rise .. along with other things that is on the rise more so with altered pets versus later altered or left in tact..Some stuff is just called Life but here are some of the many many links
http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/he ... ering.aspx
http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24597888/ns ... lJr-aiaYfU
http://www.dogcancerblog.com/spaying-ne ... ttweilers/

Again I am not saying don't spay or neuter I am however saying look at the real picture not just the supposed way it will prevent unwanted litters as The truth there "You can't fix stupid" those people who have those unwanted litters via accident or I gots the best huntin dog ever , or I can't keep her in They will continue to be the problem mandatory programs or not.

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:38 am

Plus hard as it to believe many of the shelters are importing dogs from overseas because there are not enough to supply the demand anymore. The spay neuter mania has been effective, no doubt about it. And though the people involved will always deny it, many if not most rescue groups are not interested in finding a home for the dogs but rather work at finding reasons that the people who want one aren't qualified to have one. I have been turned down because L have a kennel, my yard fence was only a 4 ft. fence, I don't have a fence, I was going to hunt the dog, and I already had a dog. If the first excuse didn't work they could always go through the whole list and find one that fit.

I gave up trying to help a rescue group years ago and now I just take a dog and find a home for it when needed and it costs the new owner practically nothing and I can place 5 dogs to every one that the rescue people do.

Ezzy

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:58 am

There is a very simple way to put off or eliminate the neutering of a male dog. If someone asks me what I think I say the following:

1) To Mom:

The dog will stay smaller if you don't neuter him....
The dog might not shed as much if you don't neuter him...
He will be less likely to develop incontinence if you don't neuter him...

Those three seem to be important to Mom, especially the size of the dog.

2) To Dad:

The dog will have a much lower chance of needing double knee replacement which will cost $8,000....

That is all Dad has to hear.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:10 pm

mcbosco wrote:There is a very simple way to put off or eliminate the neutering of a male dog. If someone asks me what I think I say the following:

1) To Mom:

The dog will stay smaller if you don't neuter him....
The dog might not shed as much if you don't neuter him...
He will be less likely to develop incontinence if you don't neuter him...

Those three seem to be important to Mom, especially the size of the dog.

2) To Dad:

The dog will have a much lower chance of needing double knee replacement which will cost $8,000....

That is all Dad has to hear.

No doubt

personally I think the world would be better off if more people got spayed and neutered How about if your kid is born on welfare parents spayed and neutered on the spot and the kids at 4-6 months could you imagine the uproar that would get .

terrym · Post by **terrym** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:07 pm

My vet tried to talk us into it when the dog was 4 mths old. I made myself pretty clear as to why I didn't want to do that and he got a little red in the cheeks when I told him the dog was too young anyway. Likely one of the most important cash sources of the vet industry. Political BS spun by the anti's and PETA.

VizslaGirl · Post by **VizslaGirl** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:21 pm

My only 2 cents...

From someone who work in a clinic - we LOSE money on spays/neuters.

Most owners don't want/are not equipped to deal with intact animals - I would rather see those animals altered at a young age. I personally own both altered and intact males and females. It's a personal choice, just know the facts and try not to accuse your vet of anything terrible - it gets old after a while.

stlgsp · Post by **stlgsp** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 7:33 pm

Interesting that the articles knine linked mention increase in aggressive behaviors in neutered males. Most people recommend neutering to curb aggression. From what I have seen the neutering didn't seem to do anything to change the behavior, it was training.
I've took some heat from my vet and more from other people for not neutering my males. Told the vet I wasn't doing anything until they were at least 2 and she agreed it was a good choice. So far I have seen no reason to (they are 2), have had no problems around other dogs (male or female) or each other.

Steve007 · Post by **Steve007** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:31 pm

terrym wrote:My vet tried to talk us into it when the dog was 4 mths old. I made myself pretty clear as to why I didn't want to do that and he got a little red in the cheeks when I told him the dog was too young anyway. Likely one of the most important cash sources of the vet industry. Political BS spun by the anti's and PETA.

Exactly right, though a lot of vets have been HONESTLY brainwashed by this foolishness, not for cash,but because they believe it. Interesting, though, how this movement directly correlates with the influx of lady vets into business. Could it be.,,.? Nah. Never mind.

My brother is a vet. I once heard him urge the owners of a PUG puppy to get their dog neutered "to prevent future behavioral problems". No word on whether the dog turned bad on reaching puberty and killed his owners. Then there was the time he said my 9-year-old male Gordon had an enlarged prostate and suggested neutering. No comment on my reply. Antibiotics straightened out his temporary urinary problem. Dog lived to be 16--entire--without problems. Worth mentioning that he woudn't have charged me(or not much) for the procedure. These guys and even more frequently girls (how surprising) actually believe this stuff..in many instances. Doesn't mean they're right, though.

taxidermy · Post by **taxidermy** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:34 pm

by VizslaGirl » Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:21 pm

My only 2 cents...

From someone who work in a clinic - we LOSE money on spays/neuters.

funny,,, the clinic here does 20-25 dogs a day 5 days a week ,dogs are droped off at 8 and picked up before 1:00.
the day i was there, 15 dogs were turned away for the nex day ; tell me how that is "we lose money"

heck,, it is a cash cow here !!!!

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:46 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Plus hard as it to believe many of the shelters are importing dogs from overseas because there are not enough to supply the demand anymore. The spay neuter mania has been effective, no doubt about it. And though the people involved will always deny it, many if not most rescue groups are not interested in finding a home for the dogs but rather work at finding reasons that the people who want one aren't qualified to have one. I have been turned down because L have a kennel, my yard fence was only a 4 ft. fence, I don't have a fence, I was going to hunt the dog, and I already had a dog. If the first excuse didn't work they could always go through the whole list and find one that fit.

I gave up trying to help a rescue group years ago and now I just take a dog and find a home for it when needed and it costs the new owner practically nothing and I can place 5 dogs to every one that the rescue people do.

Ezzy

I have been turned down by a rescue too. Too many dogs, no fenced yard (though we have a running pen around the kennels). I don't let that get me down. The average Joe is not Ezzy or Elsa. The average Joe, when adopting a hunting breed might ought to have a good fence and no other intact dogs. He's likely not as careful as you or I (or others on this site that are passionate dog owners) with his dog. Most folks in rescue are volunteering their time and their money to help the breed that they love. No wonder they're more careful about where their dogs get placed. Most shelters have a high return rate of dogs... most good rescues have a very, very low return rate of their dogs - because they're picky about who gets the dogs. I myself will place dogs too. I always spay or neuter them before placing them - none of the dogs I have placed have ever had a litter or been returned to me. I always do a home check and a vet check - but I'm likely not as picky as the rescue is. There are 571 brittany spaniels listed on Petfinder in my zip code (though they list dogs farther away) and 301 English Pointers, 726 GSP's - granted some are mixes, but geez = these are only the ones listed on Petfinder. How many more are out there? There are millions of dogs being put down in shelters each year, I just think the average Joe dog owner isn't as responsible as they should be with spaying and neutering. You and I aren't the problem people out there, the general dog owner in many cases is. I just think it's not "wrong" to spay and neuter if you're not capable of 1) keeping your dog from breeding or 2) breeding only the best to the best.

Scott Linden · Post by **Scott Linden** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:32 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
Scott Linden wrote:Okay everyone, time to submit your 2/100 of a dollar ... help me out. Why or why not? When? Cautions, rationale, tips, consequences. Thanks.
It would hurt, your voice will stay high pitched, you won't have to shave, And it won't hurt so bad when your feet slip off of the pedals. Can't go swimming for a couple of eeks. Should wait till you mature enough to not ask such a silly question. Don't use iodine on the incision. :roll:

Ezzy

Hah. I think. Are you speaking from personal experience Ezz? What size scalpel did you use?

Post by **ezzy333** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:14 pm

571 dogs are more than we would like to see but not really excessive for an organization that advertises to bring your dogs to them if you need to out of a nation of 325,000,000 people or more.

Ezzy

VizslaGirl · Post by **VizslaGirl** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:57 am

taxidermy wrote:by VizslaGirl » Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:21 pm

My only 2 cents...

From someone who work in a clinic - we LOSE money on spays/neuters.

funny,,, the clinic here does 20-25 dogs a day 5 days a week ,dogs are droped off at 8 and picked up before 1:00.
the day i was there, 15 dogs were turned away for the nex day ; tell me how that is "we lose money"

heck,, it is a cash cow here !!!!

I'm not going to argue with you - it makes no difference to me. I know, from seeing the numbers, that clinics in my area consistently lose money on spays and neuters.

How you feel about that is not my problem.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:35 am

The bottom line to the whole discussion is that the only significant benefit to neutering a male dog is to prevent unintended pregnancy.

terrym · Post by **terrym** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:28 pm

VizslaGirl wrote:My only 2 cents...

From someone who work in a clinic - we LOSE money on spays/neuters.

Most owners don't want/are not equipped to deal with intact animals - I would rather see those animals altered at a young age. I personally own both altered and intact males and females. It's a personal choice, just know the facts and try not to accuse your vet of anything terrible - it gets old after a while.

No Veterinarian is going to do work that actually loses them money. Unless it's some probono work with some misguided agency. These fixit people eem to think dogs are uncontrollable. Thats total BS. I have owned dogs my whole life both males and females and never fixed any. Never had any unwanted litters or caused any. Train the owners don't carve up innocent animals.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:00 pm

There are 571 brittany spaniels listed on Petfinder in my zip code (though they list dogs farther away) and 301 English Pointers, 726 GSP's - granted some are mixes, but geez = these are only the ones listed on Petfinder

These are not for single zip code this is for the pets available in the nation on Pet Finder here is the site.
http://www.petfinder.com/breeds/Dog

DougB · Post by **DougB** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:59 pm

No Veterinarian is going to do work that actually loses them money. Unless it's some probono work with some misguided agency. These fixit people eem to think dogs are uncontrollable. Thats total BS. I have owned dogs my whole life both males and females and never fixed any. Never had any unwanted litters or caused any. Train the owners don't carve up innocent animals.

Actually, many vets do volunteer work for rescues. Your comment-train the owners- is spot on. But it doesn't happen. The "misguided agency" is trying to humanely clean up somebody elses mistakes. They know where the problem lies, but apparently you are not allowed to force people to behave rationally. You know people don't behave rationally when they pay $2000 for any dog with "doodle" in the name.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:29 pm

Greg Jennings wrote:The bottom line to the whole discussion is that the only significant benefit to neutering a male dog is to prevent unintended pregnancy.

That is about it ... This keeps turning inot how many dogs ...how many dogs will never change there will always be THAT person who allows their dog to roam around giving little care to securing them when their female is in heat. To later sit in front of the local grocery store with the card board box full of cheap to free puppies for the next generation of impulse taker who will continue the lack of care and control with their dog

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:00 pm

maybe they should leave pound unlocked at night?

http://moneyland.time.com/2011/08/23/do ... dnappings/

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:12 pm

kninebirddog wrote:
Greg Jennings wrote:The bottom line to the whole discussion is that the only significant benefit to neutering a male dog is to prevent unintended pregnancy.

That is about it ... This keeps turning inot how many dogs ...how many dogs will never change there will always be THAT person who allows their dog to roam around giving little care to securing them when their female is in heat. To later sit in front of the local grocery store with the card board box full of cheap to free puppies for the next generation of impulse taker who will continue the lack of care and control with their dog

Where did you get the idea every muttt is an unwante dog owned by a someone that has no idea of responsibility? Those free pups maybe be the first pet a small kid will have and will maybe let him growup into a Brittany or GSP owner.

Ezzy

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:27 pm

Ezzy,

that was certainly true when the odds were that a family unit was walking in a grocery store in mid America ... and of course it is still a chance today. However, times have changed, and encouraging the "IMPULSE" pick of a puppy gets increasingly less attractive as time goes by. Too many factors like the time people are willing to spend away from video games, year round sports, custody courts and rehab make the Norman Rockwell version nearly nostalgia.

I acknowledge my jadedness comes from living on one of the coasts where the situation is exacerbated but I believe that making people put in a little effort for raising kids and dogs is in order for a much needed societal re-birth.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:30 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
kninebirddog wrote:
Greg Jennings wrote:The bottom line to the whole discussion is that the only significant benefit to neutering a male dog is to prevent unintended pregnancy.

That is about it ... This keeps turning inot how many dogs ...how many dogs will never change there will always be THAT person who allows their dog to roam around giving little care to securing them when their female is in heat. To later sit in front of the local grocery store with the card board box full of cheap to free puppies for the next generation of impulse taker who will continue the lack of care and control with their dog
Where did you get the idea every muttt is an unwante dog owned by a someone that has no idea of responsibility? Those free pups maybe be the first pet a small kid will have and will maybe let him growup into a Brittany or GSP owner.

Ezzy

And where did I say EVERY :roll: Please note again what I bold typed and highlighted in Red. Have a nice evening

nj gsp · Post by **nj gsp** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:39 pm

Chukar12 wrote:maybe they should leave pound unlocked at night?

http://moneyland.time.com/2011/08/23/do ... dnappings/

Some dogs are stolen by people who sell them to medical testing labs. That's why the breeder I got my shorthair from said they switched from ear tattoos to tattooing the inside of a rear leg - harder to cut off and sell that way. My dogs are tattooed and/or microchipped and we test scan the chips every 6 months.

Thorina · Post by **Thorina** » Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:53 pm

DougB wrote:
No Veterinarian is going to do work that actually loses them money. Unless it's some probono work with some misguided agency. These fixit people eem to think dogs are uncontrollable. Thats total BS. I have owned dogs my whole life both males and females and never fixed any. Never had any unwanted litters or caused any. Train the owners don't carve up innocent animals.
Actually, many vets do volunteer work for rescues. Your comment-train the owners- is spot on. But it doesn't happen. The "misguided agency" is trying to humanely clean up somebody elses mistakes. They know where the problem lies, but apparently you are not allowed to force people to behave rationally. You know people don't behave rationally when they pay $2000 for any dog with "doodle" in the name.

I got my two pups from a rescue org. They were rescued as a result of misguided wanna be bird dog breeders. Lab, spaniel, pointer....not a doddle in the bunch. Since Disney has yet to put out "101 English Pointers" cartoon classic.....I have to assume this *special* mutt "recipe" had to have some bird doggin influence.
Call me psychic.
The pups were neutured at 10 weeks. IMO, too early, but I completely and TOTALLY understand the rescue's position on not releasing them until they are no longer able to reproduce....and not leaving it up to some "responsible" human.
You all are hunting dog enthusiasts....can you imagine trying to place 15 4 week old puppies on 4th of July weekend?
Yeah, neither could the rescue that got them.
I don't agree with how early they were done, but it's the contract I signed at 10 at night in the parkinglot of a PetSmart while picking out 2 puppies from the back of a pick up truck in the dark that needed someone to take care of them.
I wasn't going to stand there and argue symantics.

My 2 mutts came from papered parents....with some tie to some "responsible" breeder somewhere.

You need to consider yourself among the elite of dog owners. You all are at the top of what would be considered responsible dog owners....and as such, you really need to give your position on spay and neuturing a good, long, hard look.

I understand your position, but at the same time, you need to realize that your decision to keep your dogs in tact, for whatever reason, has a definate trickle down effect.
It's not a good one for many, many animals.

For the people that think you are so mighty that you can train a dog to *never* answer the call of a bitch in heat.....well...if you're *that* good....we need you to start on a bunch of humans....because NO ONE has been able to completely train humans not to answer a booty call.

Your intact male dog always listens to you? Well, then you must not have had him around a good looking bitch in heat.

I am being fairly tongue in cheek because I am not a hard core Bob Barker or anything, not at all. But, you have to admit to yourself, in a sport where a lot of off leash time is necessary, you cannot say that you always have 100% control of an intact dog.
If you think you do, you are kidding yourself.

So.....what happens to the "accidents"?

If they are mixed breed accidents....you....as the "responsible" human...have made sure that many will not continue the legacy they came from genetically....field trials and comp. hunting, etc....because they will be mutts. Mutts are not very highly looked upon within this sport...in case ya haven't noticed.
How many "accidents" does there need to be in order to figure out that your in tact male "future champion"....would rather hump than hunt?
If you REALLY want to give him a joy of hunting....force him to stay home with a litter of puppies.
Usually brings out the urge to hunt in males of most species.

Vets "losing" money on spays, etc? No....but many do it at a "break even" cost. For someone who makes the kind of money a vet can....breaking even *is* losing money.

peace,
j

"mom" of Stan Future Championship Pedigree Lower Liverpool Labrointer
& Ollie Future Championship Pedigree Louisiana Labalabadooniel

http://youtu.be/OTpolOR0kQo

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:42 pm

Thorina,

What I get from your post is you have a complete lack of understanding about our sporting dogs and how they are handled. And I would guess that goes to a lot of other types also. Accidents do not happen because an attended dog is off leash. Puppies come from stray dogs that are running loose and are unattended. At least 99% of them do. I have had dogs for over 50 years and am yet to have one of the males breed someones dog unless it was planned. That covers well into the hundreds of animals. And these dogs were kenneled side by side and many of them hunted off leash many times plus they are off leash during much of their training.

The real problem comes from dogs that are allowed to run mostly at night such as farm dogs and of course the stray dogs in town. Having people neuter their dogs is much like gun control as far as solving the problem. The responsible gun owner can't buy a gun and the responsible dog owner has the only neutered dogs but it has almost no effect on the real problem. But it does have a tremendous effect on the health of our dogs.

And then on top of that we have been so good at reducing the number of unintended pups there is a shortage of them in this country to supply the needs of people wanting them and we are now importing dogs for the shelters in many parts of the country. I am not against the proposition of responsible owner ship but the neutering mania is a small part of solving the problem.

And please don't use us as a role model for a neutering campaign since you will be totally disappointed. Most responsible sporting dog owners are teaching people to not neuter early if at all for the sake of the dogs. And maybe we are making headway after seeing way too many torn ligaments and cancers that are more numerous than the ones we eliminate. Dogs need our care to promote their health rather than a program that helps us feel good.

Ezzy

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:46 pm

Well said Ezzy

big steve46 · Post by **big steve46** » Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:21 pm

Chukar12 wrote:Well said Ezzy

+1

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:08 am

Has anyone found any research on dogs that were fixed after the two year mark and how they were effected? It seem like the majority of the research is focused on >1 year.

I would love to leave my dog intact and plan to wait at least until two years before neutering, but being a first time dog owner I'm worried about my own capabilities to train a dog well enough that if a situation arises I'll be able to call him off. I know I'm not going to train the perfect dog the first time around so I do believe it is responsible to consider that when weighing your options. And who knows, maybe the two year mark comes around and I seem to have a good handle on the dog and I'll feel confident in leaving him intact, but if that's not the case I feel like I may have to neuter.

Tim

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:33 am

No research that I have seen. But, they still lose muscle tone and gain weight in my opinion. Once a male passes the two year mark intact, the boyish behavior subsides. So I see no reason to neuter.

If at some point if the dog needs to be neutered for something like an enlarged prostate, then do it, but it is a remote possibility when the dog is much much older.

Learn to palpate testes, it is easy.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:01 pm

Well said, ezzy.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:02 pm

Just to Chime in here.

Recently had my French Brit Buster Neutered. He had a great coat. His coat has changed and sheds more than he did. His coat is less shiny, less dense. He still marks all over the woods and yard. Buster is 10 years old and I did this early spring or late winter. He also dribbles, not intentionally peeing just dribbles, so he takes a med for that.

Rick

Thorina · Post by **Thorina** » Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:47 pm

You are reacting as though my post was directed negotively at you.
It was not. But it was directed to the group of people here who believe they are responsible dog owners.
The "must stay in tact" argument trickles down to people who are NOT responsible dog owners.
Yes, you are absolutely correct, I do not have a full understanding of bird dogging...yup, pegged that one. At some level, you must realize that your willingness, this "group" willingness to pay a LOT of money for a well bred dog *does* have a trickle down effect....and it always trickles down right into the lap of the irresponsible....and those simply looking for a way to make money. The vast majority *think* they are being responsible.....and are not being irresponsible simple due to sheer malice.

I am really not sure where you get that we are starting to import dogs to keep shelters full. I would be very interested in reading some articles on the subject. I have dealt with many dog rescue folks in Southern California (personal friends involved in rescue and involved heavily in search and rescue and service dog training), and several here in Northern CA (in the process of looking for a pup to adopt)....and I'll tell you, they have PLENTY and certainly are not importing them from anywhere.
They seem to show up just fine on their own....in huge numbers.
If this is not the case in other areas of the country, I would be very interested in reading about it.
I would most certainly like to read about whatever dynamic was involved in that would make people import dogs for such a purpose.

"in my 50 years"....ok...that means that you must be on top of it.....but what about the others that your "in my 50 years" speach is over heard by? The people that are in it for 5 years....and come to think that they can be as responsible as you seem to be? That's what I was talking about when I said you guys need to take a long hard look at what you are "passing down" to others. It wasn't an insult, it was directed at this group because you ARE responsible....and as such....please take that a step farther and make sure that what people *hear* from all of your years of experience is....unless you're going to give 1000% to make sure there are no unwanted pups.....then have them fixed.
Yes, that needs to be a part of your responsibility, IMO.

No, puppies don't just come from strays running around. My pups were conceived in someone's back yard.....they owned the dad and both moms. The reason the pups were taken at 4 weeks without the moms is because the rescue was going to return the moms after the pups were weaned....spayed. The pointer mom....the owner said NO WAY! We want to breed her again! She's papered!
(Yet they were in no way capable of or willing to care for 15 "ooppss" puppies)
They refused to agree to having the male neutured....again....because they wanted him left in tact for stud purposes.
How does this involve people like you? Well, I would be willing to bet these wanna be bird dog breeders heard someone else with years of experience talking about dog breeding, training, etc....and they came to think they were capable of doing it responsibly, as well.
15 mixed breed puppies later proves otherwise.

The story of the fella that got 2 pups from a "responsible" breeder....who did not inform him about the possibility of littermate syndrome. Sold the guy 2 puppies anyway. He ended up having to get rid of one of the dogs. I'll bet nothing was ever done or said to this breeder by their peers within the breeding community. THAT is what I am talking about....an extention of responsible specific breed dog ownership. I'd be willing to bet if the fella fessed up the name of the breeder.....there'd be people on this board that would simply say...."Oh, yeah *that* breeder....we know all about them."
That is a sign that policing from within is not being practiced very well.

Who here on this board knows about at least one "ooppss" litter? Don't be shy....raise your hands.
How many people here know of breeders that aren't so responsible....yet because of "peer pressure" or whatever the adult equivalent....no one says anything....either directly to the person, or to the proper authorities?

I'll put it in a realm I DO understand fully. Motorcycling. When out at recreation areas, yes, as a responsible motorcyclist, it IS my "job" to talk to people whom I beleive are behaving irresponsibly in regards to motorcycling....multi riders on quads, too much alcohol use, wrecklessness, kids with no helmets, etc. If my talking to them does not get the desired result of better/safer behavior....then it further becomes my responsibility to notify the authorities.
Yes, it is UNCOMFORTABLE to confront someone about their behavior.....yes, you have to sack it up and go do it....it is the responsible thing to do.

If we don't step up and police ourselves....then we open the door wide open to allow the gov't to come in and do it for us.

In an extreme sense....if I sit back and allow a kid to be hurt or killed because of my unwillingness to step up and have a potentially uncomfortable conversation with someone....then I suppose the sport deserves to be more regulated. In a less extreme sense, dog breeding is the same exact way.
If you let it go, and let it go, and let it go in order to avoid an uncomfortable conversation....then be prepared to deal with the consequences....even if *you* are not the *direct* thing that caused the problem to begin with. By inaction, you make yourself part of the problem.

If I sit back and watch a kid get hurt because he's not wearing a helmet on a quad....the direct result for me would be losing even more riding area....and the life long knowledge of knowing my inaction hurt a kid. In dog breeding/hunting....inaction to police from within will also adversely effect the sport. You can say, "yeah, but no one dies"....look at what has happened to the entire breed known commonly as Pit Bulls. The breed is all but ruined, potentially perminently....due to irresponsibility and inaction from within.
...and yes.....people have died.

There is continually more and more legislation here in CA to further regulate and control animal breeding (and motorcycles, guns, happy meal toys)....one direct consequence is a limit on the number of dogs/cats one can own. No where in our local ordinance does it say "unless it's a responsible dog owner". In our city, we have a limit....with 2 dogs and 2 cats, I am at my legal limit. If I dog sit for a friend for the weekend and animal control comes by, I would be cited/fined for having too many animals.
That is a direct result of animal breeding not being policed from within.
Ironically, if animal control did come by my house...it would be a direct result of my neighbor's constantly barking dog....and not due to me having "too many dogs" in my yard. So, again, my neighbor's irresponsibility will have direct consequenses for *me*.
The dog next door is a purebred something or 'nother $1000 dog....some breeder simply didn't do their job in finding a "good" and "appropriate" home for this particular dog. The dog is not being abused, but with the neighbor's life style, it is left home alone a LOT....and left home to bark continuously.

What was the ultimate outcome with my pups parents? Animal control was notified....when the owners were faced with fines and larger registration fees for unaltered animals....they finally agreed to let all 3 parents be fixed. In this instance "the system" worked.....but it should never have gotten that far, IMO.
I have a hard time believing that there is a shortage of $1000+ pups for sale.

Someone had this same talk with me some 15+ years ago in regards to motorcycling. I had the opinion that as long as I was doing everything right....everyone else was one their own.
Not so, as my actions or inaction can have far reaching effects.

Not trying to argue with you, just trying to give you some food for thought because this *is* a group of people who consider themselves to be responsible dog owners. I told you yesterday I was *not* a crazed Bob Barker fanatic....and I meant it. I do not beleive every dog/cat, etc needs to be altered. I did not say that yesterday, nor have I said it today, nor will you hear me say it ever.
But, in the same vein, I do not want the actions of irresponsible people ultimately dictating MY life.
I firmly beleive in taking a pro-active approach to keeping my freedoms.

Kisses, Ezzy.....we're on the *same* team.
Neither of us wants irresponsible animal breeding.

peace,
j

ezzy333 wrote:Thorina,

What I get from your post is you have a complete lack of understanding about our sporting dogs and how they are handled. And I would guess that goes to a lot of other types also. Accidents do not happen because an attended dog is off leash. Puppies come from stray dogs that are running loose and are unattended. At least 99% of them do. I have had dogs for over 50 years and am yet to have one of the males breed someones dog unless it was planned. That covers well into the hundreds of animals. And these dogs were kenneled side by side and many of them hunted off leash many times plus they are off leash during much of their training.

The real problem comes from dogs that are allowed to run mostly at night such as farm dogs and of course the stray dogs in town. Having people neuter their dogs is much like gun control as far as solving the problem. The responsible gun owner can't buy a gun and the responsible dog owner has the only neutered dogs but it has almost no effect on the real problem. But it does have a tremendous effect on the health of our dogs.

And then on top of that we have been so good at reducing the number of unintended pups there is a shortage of them in this country to supply the needs of people wanting them and we are now importing dogs for the shelters in many parts of the country. I am not against the proposition of responsible owner ship but the neutering mania is a small part of solving the problem.

And please don't use us as a role model for a neutering campaign since you will be totally disappointed. Most responsible sporting dog owners are teaching people to not neuter early if at all for the sake of the dogs. And maybe we are making headway after seeing way too many torn ligaments and cancers that are more numerous than the ones we eliminate. Dogs need our care to promote their health rather than a program that helps us feel good.

Ezzy

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:02 pm

The pointer mom....the owner said NO WAY! We want to breed her again! She's papered!
(Yet they were in no way capable of or willing to care for 15 "ooppss" puppies)
They refused to agree to having the male neutured....again....because they wanted him left in tact for stud purposes.

Please provide me their names and numbers I am in No Ca as well. I have experience, i will call them and suggest or demand that they have their dogs altered...in fact based on your description I would prefer the humans didnt breed and will ask that they take the appropriate measures while I am at it.

Do you think that will help?

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:15 pm

Thorina wins the prize for the longest post ever.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:18 pm

I know it...I make a smart aleck comment, and when I get to the end chapter i realize the dogs already got fixed and my humor was for naught...
It was diabolical

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:22 pm

Greg Jennings wrote:Thorina wins the prize for the longest post ever.

No kidding.
I'm still not even sure what her actual point is either... :roll:

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:25 pm

I kind of got it.

Thorina, I've got to tell you that you need to work on your constructive engagement skills.