educate me

quackaddict · Post by **quackaddict** » Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:50 pm

Just moved to New Mexico and I'm really excited about finally being able to do some quail hunting. Sometime between now and next year, I'm going to get a pointing dog. I'm looking at getting a started/finished dog simply because I don't know jack about training a pointing dog. Probably going to be a setter or a pointer. Could you folks explain the major differences between a setter and a pointer? There is a nice pointer kennel here in town and a nice Llewellin kennel right down the road, so I have access to each. I want a dog that will have a max range of around 200 and change, retrieves, can be a family dog and not just a kennel dog. I would assume there are plenty of specimens of both breeds that fit what I'm looking for, but what are the big differences between the two breeds(other than long hair/ short hair). Thanks guys.

shags · Post by **shags** » Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:07 pm

Just the hair. Bird dogs, except for the tail, skin 'em out and they'd all be the same more or less

They're just good dogs.
Both setters and pointers make good companions and house dogs.
You're going to be looking at the dog for around 14 years, so choose the breed that you like looking at more, and find an individual dog that suits your particular needs.
Good luck and enjoy the ride. Nothing beats dog shopping

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:14 pm

I have two pointers, a GSP and a Vizsla plus other non upland dogs. You are right in the heart of a good Vizsla breeder there in NM. I think of the pointing breeds, a GSP and a Vizsla will arguably make better family dogs. Pointers, in my experience, are much higher energy dogs that can be house dogs, but often are a bit hyper in the home. That said, my 11 year old has always been a house dog - she still tears stuff up if I accidently leave her uncrated and she has the zoomies around the house. I foster about 10 or so dogs a year - mostly pointers. I think of the short haired breeds, they are the most high in energy and least likely to make an excellent family dog. If your max range is around 200 yds, I would definitely be shopping around - most pointers can really range out there - yes, you can work them back, but they do have big motors on them.

Nothing wrong with pointers at all (again, I have two)- but if I was looking for an interactive dog for my family, I would choose a V or a GSP. I personally don't like setters at all. I have found the ones I've hunted behind (sample size roughly 10-12 different dogs) to be poor (read nonexistant) retrievers and I don't care for the hair myself. I know there are some good ones out there, but I haven't hunted behind them yet. They also seem to mature quite a bit slower than the pointers (much like a Vizsla - who matures slower as well). The NM and AZ heat can be a killer for those long haired dogs as well - they just won't do as well in the heat as the shorter haired varieties.

These are my personal opinions, based on sample sizes I've shared with you above - and I've only been bird hunting for about 12 years now.

The NAVHDA club in ABQ is active and they hold water trainings in Socorro, my sister has just joined with her two GSP's. If you'd have the inclination and end up getting a versatile breed (GSP or V or some other versatile), check them out. Zia NAVHDA is the name.

Hope you like Cruces - I went to college there and my nephew is currently going to school down there - love the town.

quackaddict · Post by **quackaddict** » Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:28 pm

Cruces is growing on me...I'm from South Carolina originally, so this is a little different for me. I've thought about the GSP/GWP route, but I have a springer that I think will make a decent little retriever, so I'm looking for more of a specialist(unless she really disappoints me over the next month or two of dove hunting). For some reason, I've never really liked GSP's, but I've only been around a handful that were nothing but biscuit eaters, and that might be the only reason that I haven't like them before. The kennel that is here in Cruces breeds EP's and GSP's, so I figured I would take a look at both and see how I like their style of working. The guy who raises setters south of town seems to have some really nice dogs that love to retrieve. I have a good friend here who has two Llewellins, and both of them are very competent retrievers.

Thanks for the replies so far...I appreciate the input.

Dashin Gun Dogs · Post by **Dashin Gun Dogs** » Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:43 pm

You might consider a Brittany. They make good companions, and they like to sleep in the bed.

quackaddict · Post by **quackaddict** » Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:22 pm

Not sure Brits are for me, although I do love Boykins and ESSs. Again, I've never been around an actual hunting Heir either.

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:11 pm

If you pick a Pointer be sure to choose a line that will suit your style of hunting. Different bloodlines have different traits and quirks. Sounds like you are looking for a closer working dog. Good luck in your search. Looking at the dogs and doing the research is half the fun.

gittrdonebritts · Post by **gittrdonebritts** » Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:18 pm

Just in case you didn't know britts Are pointing dogs,

not to totally discount RoostersMom but the Pointers i have been around all were wonderful house dogs, IMO any dog can learn when to flip the switch on and off and be a calm companion in the house and a tireless hunting Machine in the field.

were you are at in NM will also provide some awesome blue grouse hunting too I lived near Grants for a few years

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:46 am

The dogs going to be pretty much what you make it other than physical limitations. I have had a pointer female out of Chairman from great basin kennel in nevada, no labrador could beat her speed and enthusiasm to retrieve. But when she was a pup she was always out with my labrador during his training. I could have had a great dock dog comepetitor. She pulled ducks for us on a quail hunting trip out of a dirt bottom stock tank in the middle of the NM desert. She swam many summers in the rio grande. It was a rough time when we lost her.
We have many breeds of dogs including pointers, labradors, shorthairs, deutsch langhaars. Each one has its specialty. some do one thing very well some can do it all but not like the specialist. We run english pointers for quail in the nm desert beacause its sparse and hot. The lines i use are bred for 3 hour horseback events due to the large amount of area we have to cover.
The english setters are the only other breed that will place and often win at the major leauge events such as Ames where its not a short walking event. The also do not discriminate since its open to all breeds.
I don't have a setter yet but i would love to have one. You never know until you try it for yourself. My buddy always says nothing ventured nothing gained.
If you do decide to get a shorthair i have some pups that i got from my buddy that suffered some strokes that are almost ready to go. Pm me and I will give you one.

quackaddict · Post by **quackaddict** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:14 am

I know Brits are pointers, I just don't know if I like them or not. I'm wanting to get out and watch some different breeds work since I've never really seen any pointers work other than on planted birds in the South(pine trees and broomstraw). Keep the info coming. I appreciate it.

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:35 am

Have Markus show you his pointers he raises the foot hunter lines. Then come see my horseback lines. Usually when someone uses the term pointer they are refering to the english pointer. The other pointing breeds get refered to as their breed , brittany, shorthair, etc
I think you are headed in the right direction by going and seeing the diffrent breeds work. I did that by taking my horse to the trials and rideing around with the judges a couple trials along with gunning for the trials. Don't expect to see any english Pointers There or even setters at the akc events.

quackaddict · Post by **quackaddict** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:09 am

Well then I've only seen EP's work, and that was in the pinewoods of the south on planted birds...so I need to see some dogs work.

High Voltage · Post by **High Voltage** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:55 am

A good way to see a lot of versatile breeds is to go to a NAVHDA trianing day or test. Go to http://www.navhda.org/ and under Membership & Chapters you can find the Chapter closest to you and contact info. Good luck in your search!

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:18 pm

And once again you will not see Pointers at a NAVHDA event either.

quackaddict wrote:Cruces is growing on me...I'm from South Carolina originally, so this is a little different for me. I've thought about the GSP/GWP route, but I have a springer that I think will make a decent little retriever, so I'm looking for more of a specialist(unless she really disappoints me over the next month or two of dove hunting). .

You want a specialist for quail hunting then the Pointer is going to be it. I have had setters and pointers both. You want a dog who is going to get hot, who you will have to worry about cooling off while you are out hunting, who you will have to shave down in summer then get a setter. On the flip side setters are beautiful on point and more often than not will work in the max range you stated in an earlier post. I live about 450 miles from you and southeastern Colorado, northern Texas, the Panhandle of Oklahoma and central and southern New Mexico all look pretty much the same so you will also be picking cactus, yucca, thorns, briars, and goatheads out of your setters hair on top of that. Get you a nice big running Pointer and then just get used to the range on the dogs. It does take some getting used to but once you do the areas you hunt will look that much smaller and you will have to walk that much less. Good luck.

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:40 am

Tommyboy72 i was checking out your dogs pedigrees. Very nice! Adrian Jackson i see is the breeder, i talked to him a few years back. Seemed like a nice guy and very knowedeable. He was going to get me a setter when he came across a good one. We lost contact.with each other. But anyways in the pedigree there is a dog called Full Deduction do you know anything about this dog? The reason i ask is i have a dog out of top deduction and i would assume they would be related or possibly littermates. It was a Dean Lord breeding i think but has a ladys name as leasee or owner at time of breeding to Rock Acre Powderkeg. I picked him up from a field trialer and was wondering if they have a winning history. We also have another direct daughter of one of the other dogs in your dogs pedigree Gateway liberty Bell. Thanks for any information you.may have.

quailrunner · Post by **quailrunner** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:13 am

Quackaddict,
Welcome to the Mountains, cactus, and those "bleep" buzztails. Be sure to get your Springer to the vet for the rattlesnake vaccine, especially if it's going dove hunting with you. Google Earth combined with topo maps that you can get from BLM are a great way to save a ton of gas, as well as giving you likely areas to find water-holes (cow tanks). The BLM maps will also give you an idea of who owns the land that you are looking to hunt on. Some of the cattle ranchers that I have met think they own the land that they are leasing for their cattle, and sometimes will try to run you off. With a map in hand, you can avoid a big hassle.
If you don't already have one: get a mojo dove.. they work great!! They will even pull in some of the September Teal.
It's too bad that your stuck on getting a long neck dog, but when you get tired of recharging the ec collar batteries you might want to look into the French Brit. You don't have to be a professional trainer to own one of these.
Good luck with your dove hunts, and if you see a white Z71 with 4 dog kennels in the back, give us a honk.

quackaddict · Post by **quackaddict** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 8:59 am

Thanks for the welcome. I've gotten a few BLM male already and have a mojo dove(well, I'm waiting on a buddy to send it back to me...it's in the mail now). I'm not so sold on the rattlesnake vaccine, but I have thought hard about it. I'm actually going to a snake breaking tonight with the pup. Let's get together sometime so you can show me these Brittanys. I'm always up for meeting new folks to hunt and shoot the crap with.

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 9:30 am

I pm'd you on what I know about the dogs you asked about and Adrian is still around and is also a friend of mine and someone I call whenever I have any questions and he still has a few Setters I believe but mostly Pointers now. He is on this website periodically as Texasdogtrainer and if you need his contact info. I can give you that if you need it. Adrian is the breeder of 2 of my dogs but is not the breeder of my Reb dog. He is the breeder of my Annie dog and my Dixie dog. Both of those dogs are Fiddler and Miller bred with Dixie having a little Elhew Fibber McGee in her as well. Jodie Reece over at Lawton was the breeder of my male dog, Reb. Jodie used to be a NSTRA trialer but recently went to running horseback trials and he also recently went to breeding Elhew dogs with a stud dog that I actually traded him for my male, Reb. Jodie might actually know a bit more about Full Deduction and Gateway Liberty Bell than what I pm'd you and I have his contact info. if you need it as well.

High Voltage · Post by **High Voltage** » Wed Aug 31, 2011 11:31 am

[quote="tommyboy72"]And once again you will not see Pointers at a NAVHDA event either.

Pointers are a versatile dog and I have seen them at NAVHDA events. There are even Pointers that are NAVHDA VC's. Are you going to see a lot of them ,no, but there are some.

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:03 am

quailrunner wrote:Quackaddict,

It's too bad that your stuck on getting a long neck dog, but when you get tired of recharging the ec collar batteries you might want to look into the French Brit. You don't have to be a professional trainer to own one of these.
Good luck with your dove hunts, and if you see a white Z71 with 4 dog kennels in the back, give us a honk.

So what your saying Andy is that once you get more experienced "you will graduate to an English pointer"

PS: I heard a guy in a white Z-71 pretty much wiped out my pigeon supplier

quailrunner · Post by **quailrunner** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:17 am

PS I heard a guy white Z-71 pretty much wiped out my pigeon supplier

HaHa, the guy was begging me to take them all. He gave me 1 option, "all or nothing". If he doesn't eat the birds that I didn't take (I couldn't carry them all) he will be re-stocked with birds before winter. I have already got 8 eggs in the nests and before too long you will have doubled up on your pigeon suppliers.

So what your saying andy is that once you get experienced "you will graduate to an English pointer"

Alls i'm saying is that a french brit. would be a good pointing dog to compliment Quackaddict's springer, and that a guy should leave his crow call at home when he is invited to go hunting with you, mark.

Garrison · Post by **Garrison** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:48 am

I wouldn't limit my self to just a llewelin, lots of good English Setter breeders out there. Not sure how it is possible to not like a Britt after you have been around one. There are good dogs in every breed just be patient and go watch the dogs work and interact with their people. They all do the same job so find one that puts a smile on your face when they do it. You may also want to look into getting a pup and finding a reputable trainer to work with you and the dog, sometimes the process is better than the product.

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:34 am

Garrison i agree with you 100%. We have 4 breeds of birddogs and love em all. Andy i read the graduate to a pointer on someone elses post and thought it would be a great poke in the ribs. Nothing personal to anyone.. the pigeons that's what i get for shareing my spot.

Post by **Sharon** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:19 am

quailrunner wrote:Quackaddict,
Welcome to the Mountains, cactus, and those "bleep" buzztails. Be sure to get your Springer to the vet for the rattlesnake vaccine, especially if it's going dove hunting with you. Google Earth combined with topo maps that you can get from BLM are a great way to save a ton of gas, as well as giving you likely areas to find water-holes (cow tanks). The BLM maps will also give you an idea of who owns the land that you are looking to hunt on. Some of the cattle ranchers that I have met think they own the land that they are leasing for their cattle, and sometimes will try to run you off. With a map in hand, you can avoid a big hassle.
If you don't already have one: get a mojo dove.. they work great!! They will even pull in some of the September Teal.
It's too bad that your stuck on getting a long neck dog, but when you get tired of recharging the ec collar batteries you might want to look into the French Brit. You don't have to be a professional trainer to own one of these.
Good luck with your dove hunts, and if you see a white Z71 with 4 dog kennels in the back, give us a honk.

O-kay. Whats a "mojo dove".?

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:30 am

Sharon it's a motorised dove decoy makes the wings spin.

quailrunner · Post by **quailrunner** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:33 am

Got this guy on Tuesday via Delta.

Here's the boys that were born on Saturday

and the girls

Hope I didn't sound cranky or that I was saying the only dog Quackaddict should be looking at is the French Brit. I'm not. I also totally agree with what Garrison said. I've PM'ed QA and invited him to the Field trials up here on oct. 1,2,3, so that he can see a variety of dogs hunt this desert terrain, and I've invited him to hunt with us when we make a trip down south. And as soon as I have found out how the mearns quail are doing this year and if my spots still have birds I think it would be great to all get together and roll around the mountains for a weekend.

Post by **Sharon** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:22 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Sharon it's a motorised dove decoy makes the wings spin.

Thank you but what about the decoy attracts a dove?

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:34 pm

Sharon I am not really a dove hunter but have shot a few so I'm sure some of the more experienced can explain it better.You put decoys in the limbs of trees in the areas they are using to decoy them in to give you a better shot just like ducks or geese.The movement of the wings add some realism to decoy set up.That's the best explanation I can give.

quackaddict · Post by **quackaddict** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:58 pm

It's the flashing of the wings that attract the doves.

The main reason I would want a started or a finished dog would be to teach Mr what needs to be done with a puppy. I love raising pups and doing the training myself, I just don't know anything about pointers.

Quailrunner, I'm still going to try to get up that way for the trial, and I like the sound of chasing some birds still too. That black and white female is adorable.

GUNDOGS · Post by **GUNDOGS** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:00 pm

I LOOOOVE that male pup thats almost all black on the far left...ruth

quailrunner · Post by **quailrunner** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:06 pm

The mojo dove's wings are grey on top and white on the bottom. When you turn the switch on it looks almost like a strobe light. I think it simulates a birds wings as it is landing. For some reason birds are attracted to this, not just doves. I've had hummingbirds, ducks, sparrows, just about all species of birds come to it to investigate.
At the beginning of dove season, I would set the mojo dove in the middle of a field within shooting distance of my blind. Doves will come to the mojo. Late in the season a lot of the birds have become wise to the mojo, so I set up my blind at the edge of the field and they try to avoid the mojo thus putting them into my shooting range.

Post by **Sharon** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 2:20 pm

Thankyou.

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:49 am

I have been trying to respond to your inquiry about the free shorthairs QA but my pm is not working or its locked. They are one year olds and two females and a male left. The four pups and the mom are alreadly off to new homes. My AA horeseback lines and Markus's NSTRA lines are going to pretty much going to be the same. The top bred dogs got there beacause they are biddable. Just for the reason any intellegent dog is going to range where you indicate him to. If the dog.doesent adjust to where you need him at its of little to no use to hunt with it.
Andy that quail hunt sounds good. I may have a bass fishing trip to return the favor with. I found a new boat and the bass bug is starting to bite again. Also are the field trials the yucca gsp and the brittany club?

quailrunner · Post by **quailrunner** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:13 am

Grounds: The Field Trial grounds are located west of Bernardo, New Mexico. Bernardo is between Belen and Socorro on Interstate 25 at Exit 175. Take the Exit 175 ramp to Kiva RV Park on the west side of I-25 and continue south on the access road for 1.5 miles, then at the T intersection, turn right (West) on the dirt road and continue for 7.2 miles. Turn right immediately after crossing the cattle guard. From cattle guard proceed 0.7 miles to the Field Trial camp grounds.

This Trial is hosted by the Central New Mexico Brittany Club. It is open to all pointing breeds. Event Dates are October 1,2,3, 2011.

If you want a copy of the premium, let me know and I will forward it to you.

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:20 am

Thanks andy. Sounds like the old place in the ladrones. I was out there lookng for dove there's no grass. Might take some bales of straw for cover. Do i need to have an akc registered dog? All my pointers are fdsb.

quailrunner · Post by **quailrunner** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:29 am

Yea, it's an AKC event.
Just a reminder that this is the newer grounds. After the cattleguard it is a right turn. The previous grounds were a little after the cattleguard and a LEFT turn. Just so you know...

quackaddict · Post by **quackaddict** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:17 am

What kind of work have those year olds had done with them?

I'm pretty sure I'll be able to get there for one of those days of the trial. Quailrunner, are you going to run any of your dogs?

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:32 am

The gsp female seems to kbow what she is doing a little. Could just be natural instinct. My buddy that raised them had a few strokes and has a fuzzy memory so there's no telling. I got the dogs mom back after giving her to him 6 years ago she's a nice broke dog all around. I gave her to my twelve year old son to teach him the ropes of handling and hunting with a pointing dog on his own.
Andy if you don't mind please fwd the schedule and app to gotpointers@live.com
i wish they would be a real open run whatcha brung.
I will see about getting the akc paperwork done.
I have one pointer dual registerd but he's older than dirt and somewhat crippled.

quailrunner · Post by **quailrunner** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 11:45 am

Mark, email sent
QA, no I'm afraid that somebody would get pissed off when my dog retrieves their horse.

Thought about the running (I mean walking) trials, but I blew out my achilles tendon last year and another month or two of healing should have me fit as a fiddle come quail season.