Advice solicitation

Gertie · Post by **Gertie** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:18 pm

I am picking up my first upland hunting dog (had Lab and Chesapeake before) and would like to train her on grouse and chukar and am considering giving a go at trialing. Does anyone have any words of wisdom on training, socialization, equipment... whatever? Ya'll seem pretty knowledgeable and I would love to hear anything you have to say!

Dashin Gun Dogs · Post by **Dashin Gun Dogs** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:38 pm

What kind of upland dog is it? pointing or flushing? breed? age? etc..

Gertie · Post by **Gertie** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:15 pm

Oops. Probably should have mentioned that

She's an English setter (Performer/Sunrise lines). I'll pick her up in 3 weeks when she's about 6 1/2 weeks old. We'll be learning from each other for sure!

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:39 pm

The best thing I did as a new dog owner was find a trainer that let me come out and help him train my dog and about 10 others. The knowledge I gained this summer has been invaluable. I also gained a friend.

Dashin Gun Dogs · Post by **Dashin Gun Dogs** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:03 pm

Get tips from the breeder on things they do with their dogs (if they are an experience trainer/breeder). Find someone to train with, read books, watch videos, and attend some hunt test and trials. As you see things you like, you will begin to know where you would like your dog to end up in its final training stage. Socialization is the most important thing for the first 5 months of a dog's life. After that, it is about training and introduction.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:22 pm

you got time to research, just bond and take pup for increasingly long walks as it grows.....don't try and put too much control on the dog at first, just let it gain confidence and a certain amount of independence. Come and No Chewing in the house is about all thats needed at first.....and of course lots of walks.

Gertie · Post by **Gertie** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:37 pm

Thanks for the advice. I've read 'Wing and Shot' and 'Gun Dog' and watched the 'Wing and Shot' and 'Training English setters' DVDs (Sherry Ray Ebert). I've heard good things about Delray Smith and am considering looking into some of his stuff. The breeder I'm getting my dog from is also a trainer and has offered to give me a hand (I really do want to do the training myself for the most part and not have it done for me) and I'm definitely hoping to take him up on it. I've heard different ages for beginning serious training ranging from 3 months to a year and that's getting a little confusing. Also wondering if e-collar training is a necessity or does it just speed things along and at what age should that be introduced? I know, lots of questions :roll:

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:25 pm

The ecollar is like an airplane, you could drive from CA to NY, but why bother when you could fly. Learn how to use it though.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:12 am

HuntSmith Puppy I and II. Lots of great advice. The tone is a little boring, but that calm, even tone is one of the big things that they're trying to get across.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:48 pm

Setters are generally slower maturing....depending on the dog you could start in seriously around 8-10 months.

Alot of the versatile people start much earlier. For a setter I would err on the side of caution and start formal training much later than 3 months.

Gertie · Post by **Gertie** » Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:56 pm

Ok. So I'm developing a plan of attack here. I took the first week the pup is home off from work to hang out and work on crate training, going outside, socialization with my cat (don't throw anything!) and some of the local dogs that I know and trust and just generally playing with her and making her feel at home. I'm also planning to take her on some short (very short) field walks in a couple big open meadow areas near by that have quail and other birds and just letting her do her thing. We'll just be doing that sort of stuff for a couple weeks and then begin working on 'come' and 'stay'. I've heard conflicting advice about teaching 'sit' and whether I should even teach it at all, same with 'down'. Any thoughts?

Another point of confusion is whether to teach 'heel' on and off leash before or after teaching 'come'? Also, what's up with wrapping the cc around the dog's waist? I still haven't read about that in any of the literature I've picked up but have seen it on websites/pictures.

I was thinking of beginning 'whoa' training at 3-4 months and getting into some range control work. Does this sound like a reasonable timeline or am I being over-ambitious? I keep seeing posts to go SLOW but I'm not sure exactly what that means . Does it mean to perfect one command before introducing another or should I be working on a few things at once? (Btw, I plan to keep all training sessions between 10-20 minutes until I see the dog eager to go longer.)

I am starting to really wish I knew more people that had pointing dogs... lots to learn! Glad you folks are willing to share your vast and much appreciated expertise. Hope I don't burn y'all out with too many questions.

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:06 am

Gertie wrote:Oops. Probably should have mentioned that She's an English setter (Performer/Sunrise lines). I'll pick her up in 3 weeks when she's about 6 1/2 weeks old. We'll be learning from each other for sure!

That's too young to pick her up Gertie. Many things are learned by pup while in the Family Circle. Pup needs 8 full weeks with Mom and her litter mates.Pup should be getting a first shot at 6 weeks. jmo

http://www.all-about-goldens.com/puppyvaccinations.html

Gertie · Post by **Gertie** » Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:36 am

Sharon, I think it might be a little early as well. She'll be 6 wks. and 5 days. I think the litter came a few days later than the breeder had planned and he had already made arrangements to let the pups go home at an invitational hunt that a lot of his clients were going to be attending. He said he would rather have had them a few more days but has assured me that it will be alright and he will give the first round of shots right at week 6. I made an appointment with my vet two days after I pick her up and I'm definitely planning to spend as much time with her as possible that first week. Can you think of anything that will make the transition easier for her?

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:22 pm

Years ago, I picked up and/or sent pups home at 6 wks. and never had a problem that I know of. I think we have a little more knowledge about it now days though and even though I think you will be fine, I prefer waiting until they are at least 8 wks. old.

Charlie

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:41 pm

For the sake of debate, I have had great luck picking up pups at 6 weeks so I prefer to do so. I truely believe it doesn't matter as long as the pup is eating food and healthy.

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:40 pm

Gertie wrote:Sharon, I think it might be a little early as well. She'll be 6 wks. and 5 days. I think the litter came a few days later than the breeder had planned and he had already made arrangements to let the pups go home at an invitational hunt that a lot of his clients were going to be attending. He said he would rather have had them a few more days but has assured me that it will be alright and he will give the first round of shots right at week 6. I made an appointment with my vet two days after I pick her up and I'm definitely planning to spend as much time with her as possible that first week. Can you think of anything that will make the transition easier for her?

I'll probably get in trouble for saying this but.........I wouldn't buy a pup from a breeder who said 6 week pups were fine to go - so he could more easily distribute them. Just how I think about it; others may feel differently. There are thousands of breeders in North America . Think this through. For me wanting to distribute the pups at 6 weeks is a red flag. I've bred pups off and on and they wouldn't be going anywhere at 6 weeks except to get their first shot. If the pups are going to a trial to get picked up , with lots of other dogs present , and pups have no shots .......I'm on a rant; I'll stop.

Start reading at the table of Contents for this book:

SENSORY, EMOTIONAL, AND SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT OF THE YOUNG DOG..

http://www.nwk9.com/dehasse_pupdev.htm

proudag08 · Post by **proudag08** » Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:58 pm

Evidently since no one posted here in the last 5 minutes I "killed the thread" with my previous post. Now that I have edited out my comment feel free to proceed with your great discussion.

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:43 pm

Sharon wrote:I wouldn't buy a pup from a breeder who said 6 week pups were fine to go - so he could more easily distribute them. Think this through. For me wanting to distribute the pups at 6 weeks is a red flag.

So, I'm a red flagged breeder in your eyes? And why, because if you were getting a pup from me and just happened to be attending a trial in Indiana that I was also attending and I brought you a pup that was 6 weeks old (BTW,the pup would have it's shot before leaving my place)?

Sharon wrote:SENSORY, EMOTIONAL, AND SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT OF THE YOUNG DOG..

http://www.nwk9.com/dehasse_pupdev.htm

Here are a couple quotes;
"Clinical practice shows that when a puppy is acquired at 6 weeks this is already a handicap in developing its adult social and sexual preferences."
I just can't believe that. Some examples would be my avatar dog, my last lab, and every pup that I keep from our breedings. None of the puppy developement stage link applies. All were healthy and adapted very quickly. With all my experience I just don't see this as a issue. What I do see as an issue is when people get a new pup and throw them in a kennel with little to no socialization and wonder why ther're soft or out of control rebels. My point is if not socialized properly it's not going to matter if the pup is picked up at 6, 8, 10 or 12 weeks.

I'm not a believer in these studies what I am a beleiver in is proper socialization from the breeder. Meaning...handling, picking up, and gently stroking the pups within the first week of there life. You will end up with a litter of pups that will come to and enjoy being with humans from the time they can walk. I hope that I'm not offending you.

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:57 pm

Gertie wrote:Ok. So I'm developing a plan of attack here. I took the first week the pup is home off from work to hang out and work on crate training, going outside, socialization with my cat (don't throw anything!) and some of the local dogs that I know and trust and just generally playing with her and making her feel at home. I'm also planning to take her on some short (very short) field walks in a couple big open meadow areas near by that have quail and other birds and just letting her do her thing. We'll just be doing that sort of stuff for a couple weeks and then begin working on 'come' and 'stay'. I've heard conflicting advice about teaching 'sit' and whether I should even teach it at all, same with 'down'. Any thoughts?

Another point of confusion is whether to teach 'heel' on and off leash before or after teaching 'come'? Also, what's up with wrapping the cc around the dog's waist? I still haven't read about that in any of the literature I've picked up but have seen it on websites/pictures.

I was thinking of beginning 'whoa' training at 3-4 months and getting into some range control work. Does this sound like a reasonable timeline or am I being over-ambitious? I keep seeing posts to go SLOW but I'm not sure exactly what that means . Does it mean to perfect one command before introducing another or should I be working on a few things at once? (Btw, I plan to keep all training sessions between 10-20 minutes until I see the dog eager to go longer.)

I am starting to really wish I knew more people that had pointing dogs... lots to learn! Glad you folks are willing to share your vast and much appreciated expertise. Hope I don't burn y'all out with too many questions.

Anyone have an answer to this question? I'd also love to hear more on this subject!

Tim

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:02 pm

Ron R wrote:
Sharon wrote:I wouldn't buy a pup from a breeder who said 6 week pups were fine to go - so he could more easily distribute them. Think this through. For me wanting to distribute the pups at 6 weeks is a red flag.
So, I'm a red flagged breeder in your eyes? And why, because if you were getting a pup from me and just happened to be attending a trial in Indiana that I was also attending and I brought you a pup that was 6 weeks old (BTW,the pup would have it's shot before leaving my place)?

Sharon wrote:SENSORY, EMOTIONAL, AND SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT OF THE YOUNG DOG..

http://www.nwk9.com/dehasse_pupdev.htm

Here are a couple quotes;
"Clinical practice shows that when a puppy is acquired at 6 weeks this is already a handicap in developing its adult social and sexual preferences."
I just can't believe that. Some examples would be my avatar dog, my last lab, and every pup that I keep from our breedings. None of the puppy developement stage link applies. All were healthy and adapted very quickly. With all my experience I just don't see this as a issue. What I do see as an issue is when people get a new pup and throw them in a kennel with little to no socialization and wonder why ther're soft or out of control rebels. My point is if not socialized properly it's not going to matter if the pup is picked up at 6, 8, 10 or 12 weeks.quote
I'm not a believer in these studies what I am a believer in is proper socialization from the breeder. Meaning...handling, picking up, and gently stroking the pups within the first week of there life. You will end up with a litter of pups that will come to and enjoy being with humans from the time they can walk. I hope that I'm not offending you.

.............................................................................................................................

No. I'm not offended. I like respectful discussions around differences of opinion. I told you my position might get me in trouble. As long as you don't call me a #$%^&*, I'm happy.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:13 pm

Here are a couple quotes;
"Clinical practice shows that when a puppy is acquired at 6 weeks this is already a handicap in developing its adult social and sexual preferences."
I just can't believe that. Some examples would be my avatar dog, my last lab, and every pup that I keep from our breedings. None of the puppy

Sexual preferences?? :roll: This "clinical practice" just lost any credibility it may have had with me!!!

Charlie

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:17 pm

DogNewbie wrote:
Gertie wrote:Ok. So I'm developing a plan of attack here. I took the first week the pup is home off from work to hang out and work on crate training, going outside, socialization with my cat (don't throw anything!) and some of the local dogs that I know and trust and just generally playing with her and making her feel at home. I'm also planning to take her on some short (very short) field walks in a couple big open meadow areas near by that have quail and other birds and just letting her do her thing. We'll just be doing that sort of stuff for a couple weeks and then begin working on 'come' and 'stay'. I've heard conflicting advice about teaching 'sit' and whether I should even teach it at all, same with 'down'. Any thoughts?

Another point of confusion is whether to teach 'heel' on and off leash before or after teaching 'come'? Also, what's up with wrapping the cc around the dog's waist? I still haven't read about that in any of the literature I've picked up but have seen it on websites/pictures.

I was thinking of beginning 'whoa' training at 3-4 months and getting into some range control work. Does this sound like a reasonable timeline or am I being over-ambitious? I keep seeing posts to go SLOW but I'm not sure exactly what that means . Does it mean to perfect one command before introducing another or should I be working on a few things at once? (Btw, I plan to keep all training sessions between 10-20 minutes until I see the dog eager to go longer.)

I am starting to really wish I knew more people that had pointing dogs... lots to learn! Glad you folks are willing to share your vast and much appreciated expertise. Hope I don't burn y'all out with too many questions.
Anyone have an answer to this question? I'd also love to hear more on this subject!

Tim

You are being overly ambitious if you are starting this with a 6 week pup, with a bladder the size of an acorn.For the first two weeks, walks on the sidewalk will be easier than field walks. I wouldn't be teaching heeling yet .
You can start with come. Every time pup is coming to you with no command given , say "come". Easiest way to teach come. there's no rule about pup needing to be perfect on one command before learning a new one. I teach " sit" as it is needed for a house dog. Many would say it may affect the dog being staunch later ,but I've never found that. That's not to say that they may be right.

By " slow" folks may be saying "It takes time." When I got my first GSP, I worked out a plan that had him winning the national at 2 years.

With experience you come to understand that a mature, capable bird dog takes TIME.There are no shortcuts.

Plans will be reworked many times.

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:19 pm

birddogger wrote:
Here are a couple quotes;
"Clinical practice shows that when a puppy is acquired at 6 weeks this is already a handicap in developing its adult social and sexual preferences."
I just can't believe that. Some examples would be my avatar dog, my last lab, and every pup that I keep from our breedings. None of the puppy
Sexual preferences?? :roll: This "clinical practice" just lost any credibility it may have had with me!!!

Charlie

ROFLMBO I didn't see that. Mercy. ( Maybe they have homosexual dogs in Belgium.)Can i try again?

http://petcaretips.net/stages-puppy-development.html

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:24 pm

Sharon wrote:
birddogger wrote:
Here are a couple quotes;
"Clinical practice shows that when a puppy is acquired at 6 weeks this is already a handicap in developing its adult social and sexual preferences."
I just can't believe that. Some examples would be my avatar dog, my last lab, and every pup that I keep from our breedings. None of the puppy
Sexual preferences?? :roll: This "clinical practice" just lost any credibility it may have had with me!!!

Charlie

ROFLMBO I didn't see that. Mercy. ( Maybe they have homosexual dogs in Belgium.)

Charlie

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