Shyness of the GUN

[MN Bonasa]

I introduced my 5 month to gunfire this weekend. First I started by having my girlfriend distract her and feed her some treats while I shot a few rounds in the air. I was probably about 75 feet away when I shot. She looked my way but didn't seem at all scared and wanted more treats. I did that a couple of times. Later that day my dad and I went in the woods and shot clays. We shot about 75 or so, she looked a little nervouse at first tail was wagging but quickly the curiosity took over and eventully laid in the tall grass contently as we continued to shoot clays. So, I have to come to the conclusion that shotgun noise doesn't effect her at all. My real question is if a dog show gun shyness what are the most obvious reactions to it?

[kninebirddog]

When she turned and looked nervous that wagging was not happy that was a nervous wag...


Now put the gun away..and until your pup is happy in the field and is looking and excited about birds ..do not pick a gun up around your pup and I do not mean just one happy occasion ..I am talking that your pups HABIT is happy and seeking desiring looking for birds

Once you have that flush bird or bird flushes and pup is in full pursuit have One shot and one shot only off in the distance in the opposite direction of the way the pup is running
Do not say anything do not give treats after just act like all is normal and good

If you can't provide this I would seriously seek someone that has the facility and the birds and the knowledge to help get your pup over it.

Skeet shooting dove hunts and young dogs = job security for trainers to put the pieces back together again

[snips]

When she turned and looked nervous that wagging was not happy that was a nervous wag...


Now put the gun away..and until your pup is happy in the field and is looking and excited about birds ..do not pick a gun up around your pup and I do not mean just one happy occasion ..I am talking that your pups HABIT is happy and seeking desiring looking for birds

Once you have that flush bird or bird flushes and pup is in full pursuit have One shot and one shot only off in the distance in the opposite direction of the way the pup is running
Do not say anything do not give treats after just act like all is normal and good

If you can't provide this I would seriously seek someone that has the facility and the birds and the knowledge to help get your pup over it.

Skeet shooting dove hunts and young dogs = job security for trainers to put the pieces back together again

+2

[volraider]

I wouldn't be shooting skeet around your pup any more until she is gun broke like knine said. An ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure.

[adogslife]

Everything you did was wrong
it can be fixed

[AHGSP]

When she turned and looked nervous that wagging was not happy that was a nervous wag...


Now put the gun away..and until your pup is happy in the field and is looking and excited about birds ..do not pick a gun up around your pup and I do not mean just one happy occasion ..I am talking that your pups HABIT is happy and seeking desiring looking for birds

Once you have that flush bird or bird flushes and pup is in full pursuit have One shot and one shot only off in the distance in the opposite direction of the way the pup is running
Do not say anything do not give treats after just act like all is normal and good

If you can't provide this I would seriously seek someone that has the facility and the birds and the knowledge to help get your pup over it.

Skeet shooting dove hunts and young dogs = job security for trainers to put the pieces back together again

+3
What you did was EXACTLY the formula for MAKING a pup gunshy. Try to seek out experienced Pointing dog folks near you that could help you get off on the right foot. NAVHDA would likely be a good place to look first if there is a Chapter near you.

[MN Bonasa]

Thanks for the advice, I definately won't do that again anytime soon. Grouse opens in two weeks, I'll get her on birds. Supposed to be a good year for them here.
How does a dog, any dog usually act when they are diagnosed with gun shyness. What do they do, example wimper? shake? hide behind something? urinate uncontrollably? Wag their tail? Drool? Bark? I'm just curious.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Some dogs take off for sites unknown,some will come to your side & stick like glue,some will hide under something,some will hit the ground shiver & shake,all depends on the dog but I promise you don't want to find out.It's not pretty & not easy to fix so don't take the chance find somebody with some experience to help you out.If you haven't already made your pup Gunshy you are a lucky guy,it's been handled very badly so far.

Good Luck!!

[jackie]

My dog was gunshy at 6 months. Even the sight of a gun would send her bolting to the truck, or her kennel. the cure... PATIENCE! it works miracles. I started off leaving her in her kennel, and going as far as possible away from her, but close enough she could still see me, and i took another dog with me so she could watch another dog react posatively with the gun. ( I have a lab) soon, she was trying to jump the fence to come play fetch with us, so i would gradually move closer, day by day. Also, be very careful with treats. If you cant recognize gunshiness, you can be rewarding your dogs fearful behavior. A gunshy dog will look like a typical fearful dog, and will try to bolt away from the gun at every given chance.

[mxdad777]

I am a newbie on here, but consider myself somewhat of an expert when it comes to dealing with a "gun sensitive" pup. I too had a pup that was very sensitive to gun fire, partially my fault and partially the fault of July 4th fireworks (which was still my fault). I have done extensive research on this subject and also received some great advice on this forum. The one common theme that ALL GREAT gun dog trainers agree on is BIRDS! I sincerely believe that most dogs can be conditioned to gun fire in 1 to 2 weeks if done properly, but once they become gun sensitive (like your dog is) it can take weeks. If they become gun shy, it could take months and months and may never come around. Here is what I did (or the trainer did) to fix my pup who was 7 months old when this took place:

I took her to a reputable trainer and dropped her off. For the next 2 weeks the trainer worked my dog with birds daily with NO GUN. After he would work her on birds, he would put her on the chain gang with dogs that were already gun conditioned. She would stay on the chain gang while he would work with the other dogs which did include gun fire. The chain gang was about 75 to 100 yards from the field where the other dogs were being worked. Starting the third week he started moving closer to the chain gang while working the other dogs until he was only about 25 yards away from my pup on the chain. Mid week through the third week he shot a .22 crimp while my pup was in hot pursuit of a clipped wing quail just about ready to pick it up. He then progressed over the next 3 days with louder loads and finally on the last day was shooting quail over her with a 410. It was the best $500 I ever spent. I have had her home for 2 weeks now just letting her be a puppy and practicing her quartering and recall with no birds. Next Monday I am taking her back for another 1 to 2 weeks to let him work her with more birds and continue to shoot over her. Even though I could probably take it from here and shoot over her, we both felt it would be a good insurance policy to let him continue with the gunfire and chain gang training and progress up to a 20 gauge which is what I will shoot over her for at least the first half of the season.

In summary, my advice is to find a good pro in your area and use them. And what ever you do.....BIRDS, BIRDS, BIRDS AND MORE BIRDS! Get your pup absolutely crazy about birds before it ever hears another gun shot. Good luck!

PS After seeing the chain gang in action, I believe it is one of the best training tools out there, gun sensitive or not.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Alot of dogs don't like fireworks no matter how many times they have been shot over or how many birds are killed over them,same with thunder storms.One thing to remember DON'T baby or make over a dog when they shy away from gunfire,storms,or fireworks,that is rewarding them for their actions & will only make matters worse.

[brad27]

For the next 2 weeks the trainer worked my dog with birds daily with NO GUN. After he would work her on birds, he would put her on the chain gang with dogs that were already gun conditioned. She would stay on the chain gang while he would work with the other dogs which did include gun fire. The chain gang was about 75 to 100 yards from the field where the other dogs were being worked. Starting the third week he started moving closer to the chain gang while working the other dogs until he was only about 25 yards away from my pup on the chain. Mid week through the third week he shot a .22 crimp while my pup was in hot pursuit of a clipped wing quail just about ready to pick it up. He then progressed over the next 3 days with louder loads and finally on the last day was shooting quail over her with a 410.

maybe it's just me, but this seems out of order. shouldn't it go: get the pup chasing birds, then the .22 crimp while chasing birds, then move up to louder rounds, then stick her on the chain gang while you shot birds for other dogs. doing the chain gang first seems no different then taking the pup to a forest while you shot skeet; there's no distraction going on while the shooting is happening.

[Dashin Gun Dogs]

Its not out of order if the trainer fixed the issue. If an experienced trainer knows how to fix and issue, then let it be.

[brad27]

Its not out of order if the trainer fixed the issue. If an experienced trainer knows how to fix and issue, then let it be.

i ask questions because i want to learn. it wasn't a loaded one. something seemed off to me and i wanted clarification. thanks for your help though.

[Greg Jennings]

The reason that we might not let it be is that the method described conflicts with what other experienced trainers promote. In the future, someone might search the archives and get the wrong idea.

[Munster]

Alot of dogs don't like fireworks no matter how many times they have been shot over or how many birds are killed over them,same with thunder storms.One thing to remember DON'T baby or make over a dog when they shy away from gunfire,storms,or fireworks,that is rewarding them for their actions & will only make matters worse.

This is very true. My 18 month old hates thunder stroms and fireworks, but he isnt gun shy at all. Now they other day we got caught in a thunderstorm while we were doing a duck search. I was worried he would head for the hills, but he stayed on task and completed his search.
Just strange how they can be sensitive to thunder and fireworks and not to the gun.

[MN Bonasa]

Hey guys, obviously shooting a gun around my pup wasn't the greatest idea without the proper intro. This dog has been fire proof since I got her. I have never seen her flinch at any loud noise ever, and I have tested her on several occasions. I am very confident that she had no problem with the noise of the guns, her body language told me that she actully enjoyed the show. Feel asleep in the back of the Ranger on the way home. Showed her my over/under yesterday, she sniffed it and gave me the look, If were not going hunting then why show it to me, thats torture! Unfortunatley I can only get her on wild birds this year, due to work. I wanna be the one that works with her, no offense to you professionals I know you all know your stuff, and I am sure what a fun job you have, unlike mind in Road Construction. She is showing great pointing instincts and the other night if I hadn't had her leashed I think she would have caught a kill deer swooping over her making her go nutso!
She really wanted that bird, so I feel the drive is strong with this one.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Grouse Guy I'm not trying to beat you up but I think you fail to realise dogs are NOT BORN gunshy they are MADE gunshy & anyone of your so called tests could have done just that.
There should be no tests only introduction to the gun in the correct manner as to NOT MAKE him gunshy
Good Luck!

[Dashin Gun Dogs]

The is a genetic tendency for certain dogs to be "noise shy", and they are born that way. Definately correct in not testing to see if a dog is "noise shy" and make them "gun shy". There are several things that breeders can do to ensure those traits are not passed down to the next generation. Over the years there have been several things that I have bred for: bird dog first, run to the front, drive, boldness (not shy of anything), and can't be a barker.

As for dogs that I train for my clients, they all get properly introduced to everything. When I evaluate my litter, I actually just shoot over any of my dogs at anytime. I know my breeding program and I know by a dogs temperment what I can do with a dog.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Sure there are dogs that are noise shy but if gun intro is handled correctly they will not become gunshy.If you have a dog you can take out & shoot him in A$$ & he don't become gunshy chances are he can't be MADE gunshy.Does that mean I'm going to do it?Like I said above I have seen dogs that are shy of fireworks,thunderstorms,etc but not of gunfire in the field so is that noise shy & if so you would not breed them correct?

I bought a dog once when he was little over 3 yrs old he was sired by FC Tip Top Savage Sam a (HOF) GSP.Casey was one of the BEST GSPS I have ever owned natural at almost everything his only fault was he didn't like to stay & hunt dead but was a fantastic retriever.If this dog saw a gun when he was in the yard he would go in his dog house & not come out but take him hunting was totally a different thing.He had what felt loke a couple buckshot in one ear.I think he was shot while inside a fenced in area that he associated with the yard therefore fearful of that situation.I never got to breed to him but wish I still had some of his blood in my kennels today!!

[MN Bonasa]

Zeppelin,

no problem, I totally understand a dog isn't born that way. How could it be. never once was a shot over the dog, always she was in the background along for the ride. The breader actually told me that he has never has a problem with it as I did ask him about cases of gun shyness with his litters. Of course he could be lying, but I doubt it. Maybe German shorthairs are not as prone to it as other breeds, any scientific info or studies on it? I'm sure any dog of any breed can become shy. My initial question what are the actions a dog does and how do you tell if a dog is gunshy. I have never seen a gunshy dog but if a dog sits a watches like a statue, are you to tell me thats a behavior thats common with shyness? If I had told you that she ran 50 yards the other way and started shaking uncontrollably then yes I would I have a very big concern on my hands.
I got by with a stupid mistake, I can confirm that a gun in her presence doesn't even phase her, I have to be more concerned with all the "bleep" acorns she tries to eat. So, then next time she hears a gunshot a grouse will have flushed, she will chase and have a great time doing it. grouse + flush + shot = FUN! lets do that again, and again, and again.............

[mxdad777]

For the next 2 weeks the trainer worked my dog with birds daily with NO GUN. After he would work her on birds, he would put her on the chain gang with dogs that were already gun conditioned. She would stay on the chain gang while he would work with the other dogs which did include gun fire. The chain gang was about 75 to 100 yards from the field where the other dogs were being worked. Starting the third week he started moving closer to the chain gang while working the other dogs until he was only about 25 yards away from my pup on the chain. Mid week through the third week he shot a .22 crimp while my pup was in hot pursuit of a clipped wing quail just about ready to pick it up. He then progressed over the next 3 days with louder loads and finally on the last day was shooting quail over her with a 410.

maybe it's just me, but this seems out of order. shouldn't it go: get the pup chasing birds, then the .22 crimp while chasing birds, then move up to louder rounds, then stick her on the chain gang while you shot birds for other dogs. doing the chain gang first seems no different then taking the pup to a forest while you shot skeet; there's no distraction going on while the shooting is happening.

I think the difference is, my pup wasn't deathly afraid of the gun shot, (she didn't turn tail and run for the barn) but she did drop her ears and indicate she wasn't comfortable with it. When he put her on the chain, I watched her for the first hour before I left for the week. When he would fire a shot with another dog out in the field, she would pin her ears back while the other 4 dogs on the chain would have the look like "when is it my turn". Now I'm no expert by any means, but I believe the theory here is she kept seeing these other dogs get excited about the gun fire and soon realized that maybe the gun fire was a good thing.

Now I know every dog is different and there are different levels of gun shyness, but for my pup this method worked to perfection. I also know that my trainer has had success with other dogs using this same method. Anyway, just wanted to pass along what worked for us.

[ezzy333]

The is a genetic tendency for certain dogs to be "noise shy", and they are born that way. Definately correct in not testing to see if a dog is "noise shy" and make them "gun shy". There are several things that breeders can do to ensure those traits are not passed down to the next generation. Over the years there have been several things that I have bred for: bird dog first, run to the front, drive, boldness (not shy of anything), and can't be a barker.

As for dogs that I train for my clients, they all get properly introduced to everything. When I evaluate my litter, I actually just shoot over any of my dogs at anytime. I know my breeding program and I know by a dogs temperament what I can do with a dog.

I would love to see proof of this theory or even see the theory itself. I do think it is very possible the dams can influence pups by her actions and if she is a nervous type that is skittish then you may have pups with that same reaction till you show them there is a better way. But genetic, no way. Another reason you can't make that case is there is little if any correlation between other noises and a gunshot. That's why so many great hunting dogs are afraid of thunder. I think dogs can distinguish noises from other noises just as well as we can.

If your dog is gun-shy, something made it that way, an the probability is it was man made.

Ezzy

[Dashin Gun Dogs]

http://www.starfirefordogs.com/News.php
These folks did a nice study and supplied references in the article. It isn't a theory on my part. It is a conclusion from breeding different types of hunting dogs all my life.

[volraider]

My dog was gunshy at 6 months. Even the sight of a gun would send her bolting to the truck, or her kennel. the cure... PATIENCE! it works miracles. I started off leaving her in her kennel, and going as far as possible away from her, but close enough she could still see me, and i took another dog with me so she could watch another dog react posatively with the gun. ( I have a lab) soon, she was trying to jump the fence to come play fetch with us, so i would gradually move closer, day by day. Also, be very careful with treats. If you cant recognize gunshiness, you can be rewarding your dogs fearful behavior. A gunshy dog will look like a typical fearful dog, and will try to bolt away from the gun at every given chance.

I'm just curious to how was she introduced to the gun before 6 months? How did you find out she was gun shy?

[quoteZeppelin,

no problem, I totally understand a dog isn't born that way. How could it be. never once was a shot over the dog, always she was in the background along for the ride. The breader actually told me that he has never has a problem with it as I did ask him about cases of gun shyness with his litters. Of course he could be lying, but I doubt it. Maybe German shorthairs are not as prone to it as other breeds, any scientific info or studies on it? I'm sure any dog of any breed can become shy. ...]

You can take any dog and make them gunshy and I also believe you can take any dog and make them love the gun. It's all about positive ASSOCIATION with the gun. A pup allowed to chase and have the gun intro'ed that way will almost never have issues with the gun.

Brian

[jackie]

My dog was gunshy at 6 months. Even the sight of a gun would send her bolting to the truck, or her kennel. the cure... PATIENCE! it works miracles. I started off leaving her in her kennel, and going as far as possible away from her, but close enough she could still see me, and i took another dog with me so she could watch another dog react posatively with the gun. ( I have a lab) soon, she was trying to jump the fence to come play fetch with us, so i would gradually move closer, day by day. Also, be very careful with treats. If you cant recognize gunshiness, you can be rewarding your dogs fearful behavior. A gunshy dog will look like a typical fearful dog, and will try to bolt away from the gun at every given chance.

I'm just curious to how was she introduced to the gun before 6 months? How did you find out she was gun shy?

[quoteZeppelin,

no problem, I totally understand a dog isn't born that way. How could it be. never once was a shot over the dog, always she was in the background along for the ride. The breader actually told me that he has never has a problem with it as I did ask him about cases of gun shyness with his litters. Of course he could be lying, but I doubt it. Maybe German shorthairs are not as prone to it as other breeds, any scientific info or studies on it? I'm sure any dog of any breed can become shy. ...]

You can take any dog and make them gunshy and I also believe you can take any dog and make them love the gun. It's all about positive ASSOCIATION with the gun. A pup allowed to chase and have the gun intro'ed that way will almost never have issues with the gun.

Brian

Before 6 months, my dog was introduced to the gun the WRONG way. with someone shooting directly over her head. Fortunately, her drive to retrieve (and lots of patience) she got over it.

[Sharon]

I am a newbie on here, but consider myself somewhat of an expert when it comes to dealing with a "gun sensitive" pup. I too had a pup that was very sensitive to gun fire, partially my fault and partially the fault of July 4th fireworks (which was still my fault). I have done extensive research on this subject and also received some great advice on this forum. The one common theme that ALL GREAT gun dog trainers agree on is BIRDS! I sincerely believe that most dogs can be conditioned to gun fire in 1 to 2 weeks if done properly, but once they become gun sensitive (like your dog is) it can take weeks. If they become gun shy, it could take months and months and may never come around. Here is what I did (or the trainer did) to fix my pup who was 7 months old when this took place:

I took her to a reputable trainer and dropped her off. For the next 2 weeks the trainer worked my dog with birds daily with NO GUN. After he would work her on birds, he would put her on the chain gang with dogs that were already gun conditioned. She would stay on the chain gang while he would work with the other dogs which did include gun fire. The chain gang was about 75 to 100 yards from the field where the other dogs were being worked. Starting the third week he started moving closer to the chain gang while working the other dogs until he was only about 25 yards away from my pup on the chain. Mid week through the third week he shot a .22 crimp while my pup was in hot pursuit of a clipped wing quail just about ready to pick it up. He then progressed over the next 3 days with louder loads and finally on the last day was shooting quail over her with a 410. It was the best $500 I ever spent. I have had her home for 2 weeks now just letting her be a puppy and practicing her quartering and recall with no birds. Next Monday I am taking her back for another 1 to 2 weeks to let him work her with more birds and continue to shoot over her. Even though I could probably take it from here and shoot over her, we both felt it would be a good insurance policy to let him continue with the gunfire and chain gang training and progress up to a 20 gauge which is what I will shoot over her for at least the first half of the season.

In summary, my advice is to find a good pro in your area and use them. And what ever you do.....BIRDS, BIRDS, BIRDS AND MORE BIRDS! Get your pup absolutely crazy about birds before it ever hears another gun shot. Good luck!

PS After seeing the chain gang in action, I believe it is one of the best training tools out there, gun sensitive or not.

That is really well said. Only birds can get a bird dog over gun fear.

[Dashin Gun Dogs]

So what if you have a dog with no chase drive (another breed that isn't a bird dog), and you want to introduce it to gun fire? Just food for thought

I have trained several labs that don't chase birds, and I had to introduce them to gun shots. I usually do it on a chain gang with the pointing dogs going crazy.
Chasing a bird isn't always the best way to introduce a dog to gun shots, I have seen some dogs turn around in mid-stride and come back to a cap pistol at over 80 yrds away.

You have to judge a dog before you decide on how you are am going to introduce them to gun shots.

[brad27]

There are gun intro methods that work and there are methods that are better than others. If it were me I'd pick the best method.

[ultracarry]

I can put money on the OP Learning how to into the pup to the gun that way by the internet or by an acquaintance. If I'm wrong please let me know as I have heard those methods also.

BTW if I'm eating and a gun goes off either I'm pulling mine out and taking cover or ill be hauling arse in the opposite direction...

[Sharon]

The reason that we might not let it be is that the method described conflicts with what other experienced trainers promote. In the future, someone might search the archives and get the wrong idea.

I need clarification. Are you saying if a post is not agreed on as correct by the "we" , it will "not be let be?"

[Greg Jennings]

Correct, Sharon. If the group here sees something that seems "off", they're going to question it.

Sometimes, the "off" is something new and better. Sometimes the "off" is just different. Sometimes the "off", after debate, doesn't stand up.

Greg J.

[Ryman Gun Dog]

Sharon,
Please understand that on any forum you the user must decide what is correct useful information, just because the majority of people on a forum seem to have a certain opinion, does not make that opinion correct, knowledge is not something that can be voted on, and most people who participate are not professional gun dog trainers. There are many different training methods, some people believe that their way is the only way, and that all hunting dogs are the same. Participating on these forums an individual can learn some good and some bad information. Just because any certain group of people won't let something alone, does not in any way make them
knowledgeable. Sharon I do believe you know all this, but I thought I will put into words any way.
RGD/Dave

[Greg Jennings]

...but when one hears multiple professional trainers that have proven results recommend the same method over and over...

[birddogger]

There is good info here, but I would just like to say that even though the OP did everything wrong, from what I have read, I don't think his dog is gun sensitive and certainly not gunshy. It sounds like the first shot surprised him a little and maybe made him a little nervous momentarily but it doesn't sound to me that any damage was done. If the OP realizes he was doing things wrong and takes the advise on here from here on, his dog will be fine. JMO.

Charlie