A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

[Birddogz]

I have never seen a birddog who needed the life history of a bird before it would point it; That is absolutely silly to say a dog is better if it can find a wild bird. Dogs find birds, dog points bird, the rest is up to you.

Ezzy

Huh? Are you insinuating that a wild bird and a pen raised bird are one in the same? If you are, you have no idea what real bird hunting is about. The ONLY real hunting is done on wild birds in wild places. Everything else is practice for the real thing. Usually done because the person doesn't have access to wild bird hunting. I have spent my life in states that have wild birds for that very reason. Not saying that preserves are bad, if they are all you have they are better than nothing.

[Trekmoor]

I've been enjoying both the fun side and the more serious side of this thread. These are my thoughts.

Pointing "style" is whatever has become what folk want to see. In Britain dogs that pointed with their tails stuck straight up into the air as per many pointing dog pics from America would be frowned on. We don't find it at all stylish and many believe it got started because a 12 o'clock tail made it easier for U.S. hunters to see their dogs on point in cover, it had a practical purpose and it probably still does .......... but did calling it "stylish" come later ?

At present I'm training a showbred Viszla pup for a friend. She had her first ever day out among game last weekend. She got a couple of very "slack" points and her tail sticks up and looks horrible to me. She has an undocked tail as docking is banned in Scotland. To my eyes this ruins any chance of her looking "stylish."
Got a pic of her (7 months old) and one of my cockers both "on point" to separate pheasants along the side of a hedge and ditch. The cocker points like a sack of tatties and the Viszla I'm still making allowances for but they are pointing game . I could easily have shot the birds shown with the vizzy pup chasing them in the next pic.

Style isn't everything but I do like to see it and I don't see it here !

Maybe I should set up in opposition to the brittanies by breeding the worlds first specialist pointing cockers . They would then be the worlds smallest pointing breed . I'd make a fortune ! :roll:





Some pics to prove my "point" ........pun intended !

Bill T.

[Birddogz]

I'm from the East kinda like the dead sea,should be called the dead East.When I started we had wild quail out the wahzoo,I did very little training then just went hunting & had pretty good success.
There are not enough wild birds here to train on anymore if you have a dog that is still hunting hard at the end of the day after not finding any birds,you probably have a bird dog.Kinda hard for us to drive 500 to 1000 miles everytime we want to work some birds.
I have sold a few dogs to the west & if you think they can't find wild birds,let me know & I'll put you in touch with a few owners.If you have a good wild bird dog bring him East & hunt some areas that have a FEW wild birds,that will be the real test to find them where there aren't any.

I grew up in Ohio. I left for that reason. Used to have good grouse, decent quail, and decent phez. By the way, you don't have to drive that far. Oscoda and Ogemaw counties in Michigan are great for a woodcock and grouse combo hunt.

I'm sure your dogs can find birds, the shame is that they don't get to develop into a true wild bird dog. It is too bad that your dogs and you aren't able to hunt wild birds more often.

Honestly, if I were you, I would move. The economy in Ohio is terrible. ND is BOOMING! The hunting and fishing is fabulous. Make a move, and you will never regret it.

[gittrdonebritts]

Good to see Birddogz is back and he brought his High horse with too :roll:

[gittrdonebritts]

I have never seen a birddog who needed the life history of a bird before it would point it; That is absolutely silly to say a dog is better if it can find a wild bird. Dogs find birds, dog points bird, the rest is up to you.

Ezzy

What does that have to do with Pointing labs being being Lab Crosses ? Lets try to keep it on Topic Mr. Moderator.

[Chukar12]

He didn't bring a high horse I suspect it is Ten High...

[Birddogz]

Good to see Birddogz is back and he brought his High horse with too :roll:

I enjoy reading posts from people who cut on me for being right and honest.

I'll prove my point, Gittrdone, please share with us, if you are able, exactly what do you disagree with? Is it your position that some how dogs have been bred to hunt domestic livestock for hundreds of years? This is why we designed dogs? You know it is to hunt wild birds. That is why people drive thousands of miles to do so. If honesty bothers you, I'm sorry, but grow up.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

Nothing new here!

[ElhewPointer]

Good to see Birddogz is back and he brought his High horse with too :roll:

I enjoy reading posts from people who cut on me for being right and honest.

I'll prove my point, Gittrdone, please share with us, if you are able, exactly what do you disagree with? Is it your position that some how dogs have been bred to hunt domestic livestock for hundreds of years? This is why we designed dogs? You know it is to hunt wild birds. That is why people drive thousands of miles to do so. If honesty bothers you, I'm sorry, but grow up.

+1

[birddogger]

I know this has nothing to do with the PL, but I will put my couple of cents worth on the wild birds vs. pen raised. A good dog hunts and points birds...period. They don't care whether those birds are wild or pen raised. If a dog has never encountered anything but birds that are planted in open areas without much cover, they would have to adjust to how they hunt for wild birds. But Our dogs perform the same whether the birds are wild or pen raised.

Charlie

[nikegundog]

I have never seen a birddog who needed the life history of a bird before it would point it; That is absolutely silly to say a dog is better if it can find a wild bird. Dogs find birds, dog points bird, the rest is up to you.
Ezzy

I seen a lot of dogs that come out hunting wild phesants that don't catch on even after several days. Simply put they hold point on a spot that a bird had left long before the hunters got there, most catch on during the first day of two, many do not. Hunted with a guy last season for 5 full days and his dog never caught on, his friends swore the dog was a great preserve dog. Dogs find bird, dog points bird, birds run off.

[Trekmoor]

A good dog hunts and points birds...period.

Charlie

Sorry but I can't agree with that for experience has taught me otherwise. I had a Brittany that would flash point on a bird that had been dizzied and then go straight in to retrieve it if it didn't fly away fast . The same dog was even worse if a bird was placed in a cage. She'd flashpoint then move straight in, squat on top of the cage and pee on the bird ! Her contempt for anything not natural .......smelling of human hand scent ? .....was absolute. She won trials on wild game , pheasants, partidge, snipe and grouse . She wouldn't budge an inch off her point on wild birds unless she was commanded to. I considered her a "good dog."

Bill T.

[birddogger]

I have never seen a birddog who needed the life history of a bird before it would point it; That is absolutely silly to say a dog is better if it can find a wild bird. Dogs find birds, dog points bird, the rest is up to you.
Ezzy

I seen a lot of dogs that come out hunting wild phesants that don't catch on even after several days. Simply put they hold point on a spot that a bird had left long before the hunters got there, most catch on during the first day of two, many do not. Hunted with a guy last season for 5 full days and his dog never caught on, his friends swore the dog was a great preserve dog. Dogs find bird, dog points bird, birds run off.

Some of the pen raised pheasants we have hunted hold for the dogs and others have run like crazy. One place we hunt, the birds are not dizzied....just flown out and they can be tougher than what you would think. If any one of our dogs is locked up solid, you can bet the bird is there, other wise, they are relocating. All I am saying is that the dog doesn't know the difference...It is in the way the birds are presented. I suspect that the dogs you are talking about have encountered nothing but birds that don't move and don't fly very well. That certainly will make a difference.

Charlie

[birddogger]

A good dog hunts and points birds...period.

Charlie

Sorry but I can't agree with that for experience has taught me otherwise. I had a Brittany that would flash point on a bird that had been dizzied and then go straight in to retrieve it if it didn't fly away fast . The same dog was even worse if a bird was placed in a cage. She'd flashpoint then move straight in, squat on top of the cage and pee on the bird ! Her contempt for anything not natural .......smelling of human hand scent ? .....was absolute. She won trials on wild game , pheasants, partidge, snipe and grouse . She wouldn't budge an inch off her point on wild birds unless she was commanded to. I considered her a "good dog."

Bill T.

I don't expect many to agree with me but I am only speaking from my personal experience, as you are. I will agree that birds that won't fly are not good and if the dog can just reach in and grab them, you will have real problems. My point is that it is not necessarily the fact that the bird is pen raised, but rather whether or not they are flight conditioned and/or the method in which they are planted or released.

Charlie

[DonF]

I think your all right and I think your all wrong. The dogs do what we insist they do, seldom more and seldom less. If we only hunt wild birds, they will learn to hunt and handle wild birds, pen raised birds will often get scouped. But if they are trained on pen raised birds there is going to be a period where they are going to have to learn to hunt and handle wild birds. The biggest difference if not the only difference between wild and pen raised birds is how they act with the dog. You train with pen raised and that is what the dog will expect when you go for wild birds. The only bad part is the period of adjustment it takes to go from one to the other. Never let your training birds act like a training bird, make them act like a wild bird.

[birddog1968]

I also had a dog that was all about wild birds but would refuse to even point pen birds.....I cannot in anyway prove or disprove I somehow caused this....I tend to think
we cause the problem with the dog that won't point planted birds. Just my theory.

[jasonw99]

A good dog hunts and points birds...period.

Charlie

Sorry but I can't agree with that for experience has taught me otherwise. I had a Brittany that would flash point on a bird that had been dizzied and then go straight in to retrieve it if it didn't fly away fast . The same dog was even worse if a bird was placed in a cage. She'd flashpoint then move straight in, squat on top of the cage and pee on the bird ! Her contempt for anything not natural .......smelling of human hand scent ? .....was absolute. She won trials on wild game , pheasants, partidge, snipe and grouse . She wouldn't budge an inch off her point on wild birds unless she was commanded to. I considered her a "good dog."

Bill T.

sounds manmade

[ElhewPointer]

I have never seen a birddog who needed the life history of a bird before it would point it; That is absolutely silly to say a dog is better if it can find a wild bird. Dogs find birds, dog points bird, the rest is up to you.
Ezzy

I seen a lot of dogs that come out hunting wild phesants that don't catch on even after several days. Simply put they hold point on a spot that a bird had left long before the hunters got there, most catch on during the first day of two, many do not. Hunted with a guy last season for 5 full days and his dog never caught on, his friends swore the dog was a great preserve dog. Dogs find bird, dog points bird, birds run off.

Some of the pen raised pheasants we have hunted hold for the dogs and others have run like crazy. One place we hunt, the birds are not dizzied....just flown out and they can be tougher than what you would think. If any one of our dogs is locked up solid, you can bet the bird is there, other wise, they are relocating. All I am saying is that the dog doesn't know the difference...It is in the way the birds are presented. I suspect that the dogs you are talking about have encountered nothing but birds that don't move and don't fly very well. That certainly will make a difference.

Charlie

Be honest, how many TRUE WILD BIRDS have you hunted? Because from reading your post, it says to me that you don't know the difference and how much of a drastic difference there is on not only the scent, but how dogs handle the birds. In my opinion, and this is off topic, but a dog should not get into the Hall of Fame without placing in a wild bird trial.

[birddogger]

To be honest Elhew, I was hunting wild birds before a lot of members on here were borne. Believe me or not, I have hunted plenty of wild birds and I mostly train with pen raised birds. You just have to make sure those pen raised birds are acting more like wild birds and I will repeat, the dog doesn't know the difference.

Charlie

[ElhewPointer]

Well I guess you have your opinion on wild birds vs. throw down dogs. To each his own.

[birddogger]

Well I guess you have your opinion on wild birds vs. throw down dogs. To each his own.

It is not an opinion, it is my experience and to insinuate that I have not hunted wild birds or don't know the difference is absurd and an insult. I have been a wild bird hunter all my adult life, instead of playing the dog games [nothing wrong with that either] and BTW, I have no idea what a throw down dog is. My dogs and my friend's dogs are nothing but bird dogs, whether it be wild or pen raised.

Charlie

[birddog1968]

The Plethora of people who raise crappy birds is what colors most peoples opinions.......I hear the complaints day in and day out where I work. We on the other hand never get complaints on our birds.

[gittrdonebritts]

Birddogz the only thing that bothers me is what a Know it all you are and how much better you think you are than the rest of us.

[Birddogz]

The Plethora of people who raise crappy birds is what colors most peoples opinions.......I hear the complaints day in and day out where I work. We on the other hand never get complaints on our birds.

I will say there is a tremendous difference between places. If the birds are released ahead of time, I know it helps a bunch.

[Grange]

In my opinion if you want a well rounded dog your best bet is to use both pen raised birds and wild birds. Pen raised birds are not going to teach a dog how to hunt its wild counterpart as well as actually running the dog on wild birds. On the flip side using pen raised birds for training offers the flexibility that you can't get with wild birds. I train my dogs on both wild birds and pen raised birds because it is just easier to train certain things (e.g. backing) in a controlled situation and wild birds don't offer a controlled situation. I also run a lot on wild birds because no matter how good I think I am at planting a bird I just can't simulate a wild bird's behavior.

[Birddogz]

Birddogz the only thing that bothers me is what a Know it all you are and how much better you think you are than the rest of us.

How you get that I don't know. I will say that my opinion that wild birds are best isn't a rare opinion. I find it odd that my comments would spark a comment like yours.

[Birddogz]

In my opinion if you want a well rounded dog your best bet is to use both pen raised birds and wild birds. Pen raised birds are not going to teach a dog how to hunt its wild counterpart as well as actually running the dog on wild birds. On the flip side using pen raised birds for training offers the flexibility that you can't get with wild birds. I train my dogs on both wild birds and pen raised birds because it is just easier to train certain things (e.g. backing) in a controlled situation and wild birds don't offer a controlled situation. I also run a lot on wild birds because no matter how good I think I am at planting a bird I just can't simulate a wild bird's behavior.

Absolutely. Training when a dog is young with pen birds is a necessary practice. After that put them on as many wild birds as possible.

[ElhewPointer]

Well I guess you have your opinion on wild birds vs. throw down dogs. To each his own.

It is not an opinion, it is my experience and to insinuate that I have not hunted wild birds or don't know the difference is absurd and an insult. I have been a wild bird hunter all my adult life, instead of playing the dog games [nothing wrong with that either] and BTW, I have no idea what a throw down dog is. My dogs and my friend's dogs are nothing but bird dogs, whether it be wild or pen raised.

Charlie

Well, enjoy your dogs Charlie. Im sure you and your friends dogs are great.

[Grange]

In my opinion if you want a well rounded dog your best bet is to use both pen raised birds and wild birds. Pen raised birds are not going to teach a dog how to hunt its wild counterpart as well as actually running the dog on wild birds. On the flip side using pen raised birds for training offers the flexibility that you can't get with wild birds. I train my dogs on both wild birds and pen raised birds because it is just easier to train certain things (e.g. backing) in a controlled situation and wild birds don't offer a controlled situation. I also run a lot on wild birds because no matter how good I think I am at planting a bird I just can't simulate a wild bird's behavior.

Absolutely. Training when a dog is young with pen birds is a necessary practice. After that put them on as many wild birds as possible.

I think the more you get a young dog on wild birds the better. That said don't limit pen raised birds to only young dogs. If you do that you're missing out on some good training opportunities.

[birddogger]

Well I guess you have your opinion on wild birds vs. throw down dogs. To each his own.

It is not an opinion, it is my experience and to insinuate that I have not hunted wild birds or don't know the difference is absurd and an insult. I have been a wild bird hunter all my adult life, instead of playing the dog games [nothing wrong with that either] and BTW, I have no idea what a throw down dog is. My dogs and my friend's dogs are nothing but bird dogs, whether it be wild or pen raised.

Charlie

Well, enjoy your dogs Charlie. Im sure you and your friends dogs are great.

Elhew, I am not saying we have great dogs, just good solid bird dogs that live to hunt birds.

Charlie

[ezzy333]

Charlie,

Take heart man, you are 100% right. If I ever owned a dog that would only hunt one kind of bird, It wouldn't be mine very long. Dogs hunt birds and care nothing about their background. But we all know they may take a little time learning to handle the different birds. But they normally learn pretty quickly if we give them the chance.

Maybe we are just too old to know what the native birds are like, even though thats all there were when we grew up. Nobody raised them and released them in our area at least.

Ezzy

[birddogger]

Yeah, for example, if a dog hunts nothing but bobs and you take him pheasant hunting, he will need to learn how to handle those birds....If he hunts pheasants and quail and you take him grouse hunting.......etc. But a good dog will usually learn pretty quick.

Charlie

[ElhewPointer]

Its been fun on this website, I think im going to refrain from posting anymore, as I have a lot to learn I see. I think its just best to read and learn from the vast knowledge.

[Birddogz]

Hunt them on a variety of wild birds, in different conditions.

[kninebirddog]

A good dog hunts and points birds...period.

Charlie

Sorry but I can't agree with that for experience has taught me otherwise. I had a Brittany that would flash point on a bird that had been dizzied and then go straight in to retrieve it if it didn't fly away fast . The same dog was even worse if a bird was placed in a cage. She'd flashpoint then move straight in, squat on top of the cage and pee on the bird ! Her contempt for anything not natural .......smelling of human hand scent ? .....was absolute. She won trials on wild game , pheasants, partidge, snipe and grouse . She wouldn't budge an inch off her point on wild birds unless she was commanded to. I considered her a "good dog."

Bill T.

I don't expect many to agree with me but I am only speaking from my personal experience, as you are. I will agree that birds that won't fly are not good and if the dog can just reach in and grab them, you will have real problems. My point is that it is not necessarily the fact that the bird is pen raised, but rather whether or not they are flight conditioned and/or the method in which they are planted or released.

Charlie

I agree A bird dog is a bird dog..mine don't care but I think that has a whole bunch with the approach to how they were trained on the pen raised birds to be fun and exciting..
I have rarely seen a dog that was allowed to learn in a good manner to not like to get out and find birds but if the over controlling handler over trained and over worked and over corrected on pen raised well I have seen plenty of soured out dogs on pen raised..I see this big time with people who insist on foundation training with game birds..I use pigeons for foundation..Game birds are left for polish and fun

[Ruffshooter]

Wild bird hunting is all about the dog learning the particular bird and having the smarts to deal with it. Same with pen raised. In other words the reason dogs get so close to pen raised is because they learn they can. The reason dogs that FT or Test a lot take a few hours or few dozen birds or few days to figure out wild birds is just that they need to learn to change gears, most dogs can and do.

Now that I have chimed in: WHAT DOES THIS ALL HAVE TO DO WITH PL?

[ACooper]

I am really surprised at the number of people who think there isn't a difference between throw down and wild birds. If all or most of what you have to hunt are preserve/pen birds that stinks but better than nothing, but lets not get crazy and pretend that wild and pen birds act the same. You are kidding yourself if you truly believe it.

[Birddogz]

I am really surprised at the number of people who think there isn't a difference between throw down and wild birds. If all or most of what you have to hunt are preserve/pen birds that stinks but better than nothing, but lets not get crazy and pretend that wild and pen birds act the same. You are kidding yourself if you truly believe it.

Amen Andy.

[Ruffshooter]

I think I did say there is a diff. Just pointing out that a dog trained on pen raised or trialed can change and LEARN TO HUNT WILD BIRDS.

Maybe I did so in a manner that was to complicated as I read my post.
Rick

[Chukar12]

Now that I have chimed in: WHAT DOES THIS ALL HAVE TO DO WITH PL?

Ahh Ruff,

I am glad you asked. You clearly have missed the subtle messages of the extremists on both sides of the pointing lab and liberated v wild bird arguments. Poor ignorant wretch...This has been brilliantly brought together as proof that we can argue about anything. It was like a bar room debate, Nike just chose a side and through out some inflammatory bait that we snatched up like salted peanuts on the bar next to a cold beer...as the evening wore on, our bar mates chimed in from the point of view seen clearly at their stool.

You can get a topic to go anywhere when you make a comment like..." Cletus and me took Rex and old Duke out huntin with Randolph and his so called champeeen trial dog Prince...and we whopped em good. That dog couldn't find a wild Pommegated Rooofus if theys both in the same outhouse. Thar now, thar's yer proof them papers don't mean nuttin."

or conversely...

Randolph and Mortimer are conversing at the club, "Dare I mention that the rabble Cletus had the audacity to bring that shock to stand Labrador to the covert this week, and while the dog stumbled on several finds next to the road, it was ghastly to watch. I mean truly, it isn't the dogs fault it is so unattractive but they could have the decency of keeping the beast out of sight."

The crime in it all is that it doesn't change a single mind or make anyone better. I am at work so I will have to pretend I am drunk (I think I can remember what it is like) and chime right in as well... Most trainers ...professional, polished, touch oodles of dogs trainers will argue the advantages of throw down birds and controlled situations to develop the prototypical "finished" pointing dog. On the other end of the spectrum are those that have some experience letting a dog do their thing, and together as a team they create a system that works, on their turf, their way, and truthfully by their rules it is unlikely that any competition dog will beat them when the tailgate drops. Maybe in time...but today, well the home team will probably win.

Wild birds and throw down birds both have equal pitfalls in dog training I don't believe it is about the birds as much as the trainer. If you try and train exclusively on wild birds you CANNOT be as consistent as you can with throwdowns. The dog will be off in transgressions you cannot see. If you handle throwdowns incorrectly you WILL create wrecks and the most common will be dogs catching birds and poorly timed corrections sometimes with a bird in the dogs clutches that are a disaster.

...and please, learning to "hunt" is a matter of exposure to the environment and the quarry, for the dogs the same as it is for us, arguing otherwise is silly...

[ezzy333]

I am really surprised at the number of people who thibnk if you don't agree with them that you haven't had much experience when in reality you will see it is the older people who have a lot of experience with each that have learned how to handle the birds so you will have the same experience with most any birds.

If you want to take a native bird or a pen raised bird, dizzy it, hide it in cover, and then go get the dog and walk out and shoot it, I understand your frustration. But if you have gotten in the birds , native or pen raised that are out looking for their food and places to hide, you will find that you will have to kick out some of each and some of each will run out of the field. As hunters you are in charge and can set up your hunting experience any way you want and I always thought that most people would figure out how to handle the situation so it provides the hunting experience you enjoy.

I have belonged to clubs for most of the past 30 years or so and the last two years when we were working some pups are the first birds I have ever had but out for the dogs. But during that time I have had numerous people ask to have birds thrown up in the air for them to shoot or if I could just let 3 or 4 walk out of the pen for them. Sadly, I always thought hunting clubs should be called shooting clubs since that is what so many people want. Now I wonder, since reading a lot on here, if it is just that people have no idea what or how a hunting club should work or even how birds should be handled.

It was great hunting in Iowa or the Dakotas a few years ago when the birds were every where but I soon found it wasn't that great if you wanted to see your dog actually hunt. We do not have many birds on our farm in Iowa but we still have a few pheasants and quail that are fun to hunt as are the few birds in the fields of our local hunting preserve but they are both hard to get next to as they still love to run.


Ezzy

[Birddogz]

I am really surprised at the number of people who think if you don't agree with them that you haven't had much experience when in reality you will see it is the older people who have a lot of experience with each that have learned how to handle the birds so you will have the same experience with most any birds.

If you want to take a native bird or a pen raised bird, dizzy it, hide it in cover, and then go get the dog and walk out and shoot it, I understand your frustration. But if you have gotten in the birds , native or pen raised that are out looking for their food and places to hide, you will find that you will have to kick out some of each and some of each will run out of the field. As hunters you are in charge and can set up your hunting experience any way you want and I always thought that most people would figure out how to handle the situation so it provides the hunting experience you enjoy.

I have belonged to clubs for most of the past 30 years or so and the last two years when we were working some pups are the first birds I have ever had but out for the dogs. But during that time I have had numerous people ask to have birds thrown up in the air for them to shoot or if I could just let 3 or 4 walk out of the pen for them. Sadly, I always thought hunting clubs should be called shooting clubs since that is what so many people want. Now I wonder, since reading a lot on here, if it is just that people have no idea what or how a hunting club should work or even how birds should be handled.

It was great hunting in Iowa or the Dakotas a few years ago when the birds were every where but I soon found it wasn't that great if you wanted to see your dog actually hunt. We do not have many birds on our farm in Iowa but we still have a few pheasants and quail that are fun to hunt as are the few birds in the fields of our local hunting preserve but they are both hard to get next to as they still love to run.


Ezzy

That being said, I am not against clubs. I am against comparing a pen raised bird to a wild bird in value. Wild birds are the stars of the show. Released birds remind me of watching replacemement players in the NFL.

If you go to the Dakotas, you will have no trouble seeing your dog hunt. Wisconsin grouse, Kansas Quail/phez, New Mexico quail. There are still many places where wild birds still live in good numbers.

Yep and as I said in some of those spots they are too thick to really let the dog get out and hunt. Glad you enjoy that though. My motivation in hunting has nothing to do with how many birds I shoot but is based strictly on what the dogs can do. Usually their best moments are produced in an area where there are not too many birds but just enough to make them work for them.

I think I have heard you say that the number of birds you kill is how you keep score so naturally what we like to find in the field is quite different. Great that we aren't all alike.

Ezzy

[DogNewbie]

Wisconsin grouse
Ezzy

Wisconsin grouse? Come on, everyone knows Minnesota is where the grouse are

[nikegundog]

Chukar12,
Great observation, but that is only half of it.

[live4point]

I also had a dog that was all about wild birds but would refuse to even point pen birds.....I cannot in anyway prove or disprove I somehow caused this....I tend to think
we cause the problem with the dog that won't point planted birds. Just my theory.

I have seen the same birddog1968,and from dogs that were very good wild bird finders.Whatever the reason,it proves that an experienced dog does know the difference,to some it doesn't matter,to some it does.I know alot of people get duped in to buying dogs that can put on a heck of a show on pen raised birds, but can't find a wild bird.Another thing a wise dog will do is follow foot scent of the person who released the birds,and follow it up to find the bird.If you look at the way the birds live,pen raised vs. wild birds,I would imagine a pen raised bird has a stronger scent than a wild one.Pen raised birds have an important place in training,and for good fun for hunter and dog even after they are experienced dogs on wild birds,but there is a difference,and any well experienced bird dog man should know that.

[birddogger]

I will try this one more time....I am not saying the birds are not different in some ways....I am saying that a good dog doesn't care whether they are pen raised or wild if done properly [as a few of us have pointed out]. Whether I am at my favorite hunt club, my favorite state release program or on private property with wild birds, my dogs are cranked up and out there hunting BIRDS! Now I know that my dogs are nothing special and any bird dog with a desire to hunt will be doing the same thing. Also, I am not saying that you can't take away from a dog by putting him on nothing but poor quality birds and planting them where all he has to do is follow your foot steps to the bird time and time again. Anyway, this will be my last post on this thread because, for one thing it is off topic, and for another, I am just being redundant and am not going to change anybody's mind anyway.

Charlie

[ElhewPointer]

I will try this one more time....I am not saying the birds are not different in some ways....I am saying that a good dog doesn't care whether they are pen raised or wild if done properly [as a few of us have pointed out]. Whether I am at my favorite hunt club, my favorite state release program or on private property with wild birds, my dogs are cranked up and out there hunting BIRDS! Now I know that my dogs are nothing special and any bird dog with a desire to hunt will be doing the same thing. Also, I am not saying that you can't take away from a dog by putting him on nothing but poor quality birds and planting them where all he has to do is follow your foot steps to the bird time and time again. Anyway, this will be my last post on this thread because, for one thing it is off topic, and for another, I am just being redundant and am not going to change anybody's mind anyway.

Charlie

Your last sentence is correct.

[Sharon]

Now that's what I call a positive man.

[JKP]

Expected to point for 5 seconds!!!! WQW!!! I didn't know that...that is the standard. That's a flash point at best.....before you can command the dog to be steady. Guess no one is going to be looking for the dog on point out of sight!!!
I expect longer points than that out of 6 week old pups!!! 5 seconds???? I think these folks are going to have to raise the bar a lot higher to get any respect out of the pointing dog community.

[jarbo03]

I also had a dog that was all about wild birds but would refuse to even point pen birds.....I cannot in anyway prove or disprove I somehow caused this....I tend to think
we cause the problem with the dog that won't point planted birds. Just my theory.

I had a britt who was the same way, didn't care for planted birds at all, and he was an unbelievable wild bird hunter. After thinking about it, I believe it was the scent on the birds from being planted. While also being a waterfowl dog, he was taught to leave the bird pile in the blind alone. He knew that a bird with human scent was off limits, took me a long time to figure this out.