A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by **ezzy333** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:44 pm

Why would everybody plant the pen raised birds? Why not just let them forage like the native birds.

Ezzy

Post by **jcbuttry8** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:15 pm

I grew up in oklahoma. Plenty of wild at the time. Apperently not anymore. Wild birds were the way to go. I didn't know anyone who used pen raised quail. We would use pigeons in the yard but very little yard work was done. You couldn't go to afield and not get into birds. Now on the East coast pen raised is the way to go. There is definitely a difference in how a pen raised pheasant and a wild pheasant perform in the field. Haven't seen many quail. Can't talk much about the difference.

I don't know that the differences matter. If you have a dog that cannot adapt to what they are hunting you shouldn't have it. In my 30 short years of hunting with dogs haven't seen to many that couldn't adapt. The few that wouldn't were normally the bag of fleas that weren't trained properly and were never invited back. They generally couldn't/wouldn't back and paid no mind to his owners command or whistle, and if they hunted with my ol man generally had to be good at dodging a 12 ga round.

As for the 10 second point, just to stay on subject, Isn't the point of a pointing dog to hold the bird for the shooter. Only in the lab world would this be acceptable. In the pointing world, that dog would end up with a gun dog funeral. if your going to compare it to a Pointing breed, it should be held to the same standards.

Joe

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 6:18 pm

I am not a fan of pointing labs... but I am really surprised at how everyone is hung up on the length of point required. The important factor is if the dog will point! The length of the point can be trained!

Post by **jcbuttry8** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 9:51 pm

its not a matter of how long. Looking at AKC standards. No problem compare the lab to the open derby dog. Less than 2 yrs. It just has to point. It doesn't have to point and hold just show the birds. You seriously don't know why we are hung up??? They beat the pointing breed. What level did they beat them in. I"m a pointer guy but lets not even go there. Our dogs aren't exactly known for the best retrieval. Compared to a GSP? All I'm saying is make the playing field even. Compare the lab to it's equivalent. Again open derby. You can't compare them to a pointer that will hold a bird for minutes waiting for the shooter to show up. I've watched pointers of all breeds hold for several minutes for the shooter to show up. hold through the wing and shot and then never flinch until they were released. If my dog only holds point for 10 sec he can't run like a pointer. It needs to run like a lab. If you have been to any of the pointing trials, they don't run like labs. Except some of the pups. None of the older dogs though.

Joe

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 10:00 pm

the rule doesn't mean the dog can bust the bird after 10 second, it means the dog has to show 10 seconds at least before the flush.....a good lab that points raised right will point as long as it takes....lets not get hung up on a misunderstood rule in a basic title where some standard had to be developed.

Its been stated in this thread before everything a dog will do is based on development, they will do what they are developed to do....Ive got white pointers (and we know they were not bred with any thought of retrieve) that retrieve naturally very young....exposure and development. For the record, my lab when in his youth would range out 300-400 yards just like the pointers with nice speed....at 10 he can still hang in a sprint.....development , exposure, development, exposure. simple stuff.

Lets bury this silly thread already

AlbertaChessie · Post by **AlbertaChessie** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:21 pm

nikegundog wrote:Trying to put this thing back on track, I don't really care if/or how well of a pointing dog can be, just interested to know if there is enough lab blood in them that they can actually mark and retrieve. So its day 2 and knowbody has put up a pedigree or named a PL that they considered well bred. Are we all pretty much in agreement that their is no such thing as a well bred PL?

Ive shot over mutts/mixes that 'mark and retrieve'. why you are under the false impression that labs are the best marking and retrieving waterdogs blows my mind. best multi purpose jack of all trades.....probably. best markers and retreivers of waterfowl...far from it.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:46 pm

AlbertaChessie wrote:
nikegundog wrote:Trying to put this thing back on track, I don't really care if/or how well of a pointing dog can be, just interested to know if there is enough lab blood in them that they can actually mark and retrieve. So its day 2 and knowbody has put up a pedigree or named a PL that they considered well bred. Are we all pretty much in agreement that their is no such thing as a well bred PL?

Ive shot over mutts/mixes that 'mark and retrieve'. why you are under the false impression that labs are the best marking and retrieving waterdogs blows my mind. best multi purpose jack of all trades.....probably. best markers and retreivers of waterfowl...far from it.

In the last sixty years of competition how many non-labs have held the title (retriever) of NFC or NAFC? I believe you could count them on one finger.

AlbertaChessie · Post by **AlbertaChessie** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:51 pm

many variables nike. sheer numbers alone, and the fact that tests are absolutely 100% designed around the labrador retriever. Its a WELL known fact that labs are not the best sight markers when compared to other retreiver breeds. Again, best jack of all trades, for sure I would say. Best sight and memory markers for geese and ducks.....absolutely not. A very close second yes. the best....nope. Not really understanding why youre debating this?

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:02 pm

AlbertaChessie wrote:many variables nike. sheer numbers alone, and the fact that tests are absolutely 100% designed around the labrador retriever. Its a WELL known fact that labs are not the best sight markers when compared to other retreiver breeds. Again, best jack of all trades, for sure I would say. Best sight and memory markers for geese and ducks.....absolutely not. A very close second yes. the best....nope. Not really understanding why youre debating this?

The thread is two years old, not really sure why you brought it back unless to debate.

Double Shot Banks · Post by **Double Shot Banks** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:25 pm

My argument is this: A lab is and was always a great dog, why did people have to make a pointer out of a flusher? Isnt this just confusing people who might buy a lab and expect a flusher and get one that wants to point? Involving more training? Just get a pointer is my say
Isaac and Banks

Post by **Sharon** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:27 pm

nikegundog wrote:
AlbertaChessie wrote:many variables nike. sheer numbers alone, and the fact that tests are absolutely 100% designed around the labrador retriever. Its a WELL known fact that labs are not the best sight markers when compared to other retreiver breeds. Again, best jack of all trades, for sure I would say. Best sight and memory markers for geese and ducks.....absolutely not. A very close second yes. the best....nope. Not really understanding why youre debating this?
The thread is two years old, not really sure why you brought it back unless to debate.

Exactly.

Doc E · Post by **Doc E** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:15 pm

Double Shot Banks wrote:My argument is this: A lab is and was always a great dog, why did people have to make a pointer out of a flusher? Isnt this just confusing people who might buy a lab and expect a flusher and get one that wants to point? Involving more training? Just get a pointer is my say
Isaac and Banks

Shame - Shame Isaac ! !

The actual name of the Lab is a Labrador RETRIEVER ----
NOTHING in the breed description says anything about Flushing or Pointing. It says they are Retrievers.
Some Labs Flush (naturally) and some Labs Point (naturally)....... One of the original foundation dogs in the Labrador was a POINTER......... Sometimes this trait shows up. Some 7% to 10% of Labs from NON-Pointing pedigrees will point. From good PL breeders, 100% will point.
Some people don't want both a Pointer and a Flusher --- they want one dog that can do it all. Do you want two dogs ?
Some folks want a Lab that flushes --- some want a Lab that points.

you have a Lab --- you need to study up on labs some more before you state incorrect "facts".

Ignorance can be cured, stupid is forever ----- I hope i'm helping with your cure.

.

Double Shot Banks · Post by **Double Shot Banks** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:19 pm

Doc E wrote:
Double Shot Banks wrote:My argument is this: A lab is and was always a great dog, why did people have to make a pointer out of a flusher? Isnt this just confusing people who might buy a lab and expect a flusher and get one that wants to point? Involving more training? Just get a pointer is my say
Isaac and Banks
Shame - Shame Isaac ! !

The actual name of the Lab is a Labrador RETRIEVER ----
NOTHING in the "legal" description says anything about Flushing or Pointing.
Some Labs Flush (naturally) and some Labs Point (naturally)....... One of the original foundation dogs in the Labrador was a POINTER......... Sometimes this trait shows up. Some 7% to 10% of Labs from NON-Pointing pedigrees will point. From good PL breeders, 100% will point.
Some people don't want both a Pointer and a Flusher --- they want one dog that can do it all. Do you want two dogs ?
Some folks want a Lab that flushes --- some want a Lab that points.

Ignorance can be cured, stupid is forever ----- I hope i'm helping with your cure.

We all have an opinion and we all prefer different things, Im just stating mine
I Would expect a 15 year old training his first dog to be more ignorant and stupid than anyone on this forum. Im not going to say it is what it isnt

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:37 pm

PointingQuail wrote: Haha...My dogs tail isn't crooked. He's just so good he was pointing two birds at once. He was just telling me:

"Hey boss, I got one locked down here at 12:00 oclock and theres another you should keep your eye on at my 3:00 oclock....

And here I thought it was just a bitch in season.

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:40 pm

AlbertaChessie wrote: Its a WELL known fact that labs are not the best sight markers when compared to other retreiver breeds.

You are trying to be funny, right?

Doc E · Post by **Doc E** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:01 pm

Double Shot Banks wrote: 1. We all have an opinion and we all prefer different things, Im just stating mine

2. Im not going to say it is what it isnt

1. What I stated IS NOT an opinion.
Everything I stated is FACT.
Look up the breed description.......... you'll see that what i said is FACT.
Do you really think that it's only my opinion that some folks want a dog that points --- some want a dog that flushes -- some want a dog that is truly versatile.

2. But you DID !
You stated opinions as though they were facts :roll:
I stated facts that are actual facts.

.

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:03 pm

Doc E wrote:
Double Shot Banks wrote: 1. We all have an opinion and we all prefer different things, Im just stating mine

2. Im not going to say it is what it isnt
1. What I stated IS NOT an opinion.
Everything I stated is FACT.
Look up the breed description.......... you'll see that what i said is FACT.
Do you really think that it's only my opinion that some folks want a dog that points --- some want a dog that flushes -- some want a dog that is truly versatile.

2. But you DID !

.

You did get one fact wrong - the 100% will point part. Now there may be a high percentage, but 100% as fact? I'm not buying that.

Doc E · Post by **Doc E** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:04 pm

AlbertaChessie wrote:
Its a WELL known fact that labs are not the best sight markers when compared to other retreiver breeds.

That's got to be the best joke of the day. ... ... .... LMAO

.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:51 pm

There is no way to accurately apply percentages. I will tell you this in my working with pointers if you never applied any discipline or training by three most will stand birds to flush. In my less consistent work with PL's out of WA and WI if you did not train or discipline them they would default to flushing dogs by three .

Double Shot Banks · Post by **Double Shot Banks** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:14 am

Doc E wrote:
Double Shot Banks wrote: 1. We all have an opinion and we all prefer different things, Im just stating mine

2. Im not going to say it is what it isnt
1. What I stated IS NOT an opinion.
Everything I stated is FACT.
Look up the breed description.......... you'll see that what i said is FACT.
Do you really think that it's only my opinion that some folks want a dog that points --- some want a dog that flushes -- some want a dog that is truly versatile.

2. But you DID !
You stated opinions as though they were facts :roll:
I stated facts that are actual facts.

.

Right,
I stated my opinion, because of what i believe in and think. My opinion may change later on.
Im not telling anyone not to have a pointing lab...but im saying i never will and dont agree with it.

Doc E · Post by **Doc E** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:52 am

slistoe wrote: You did get one fact wrong - the 100% will point part. Now there may be a high percentage, but 100% as fact? I'm not buying that.

You're right my good man --- I should have said "nearly 100%".
Although I do know of two kennels that haven't produced a non-pointing PL
for 5 (maybe more?) generations.

.

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:56 am

There is a difference between scotch whisky and Irish whiskey.
One, is real whiskey.....the other, just a different whisky.
One knows the difference when one knows each and has developed a preference.
Each though is a poor imiation of the other.
Both will have their fans.
Both serve a purpose.
Both can enable stupid Internet posting.

Vision · Post by **Vision** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:49 am

QuillGordon wrote:Good luck with this. I dunno that bringin down another mans/womans breed accomplishes much however.

Kinda like bringin down others in how they use their dogs.

jlowery · Post by **jlowery** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:18 am

Pass on MH, put a FC/AFC, and a VC title on one.... (pointing dog)...Heck I'd just like to see one honor

Pass all req for (ret. dog)

Talk about Versatility, i believe they are called DD'S....

I think ill stick with a Versatile Pointing Breed. But to each is own...

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:11 am

Double Shot Banks wrote: We all have an opinion and we all prefer different things, Im just stating mine
I Would expect a 15 year old training his first dog to be more ignorant and stupid than anyone on this forum. Im not going to say it is what it isnt

Double Shot, I will list some facts also, the breed description is set by the breeds parent club, in this case it would be "The Labrador Retriever Club", while they don't mention pointing in the description they do talk about them in there articles along with two other types, Silver Labs and Labradoodles, and they make it perfectly clear
"Labradors should not be bred or sold to the public as a pointing breed"

The breed club is on your side on this one, just the facts.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:49 am

I can't wait to get a silver pointing labradoodle. The ultimate versatile. 100% of them point, the best markers when compared with ANY breed, and they don't shed.

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:43 am

I'm sort of pleased to see this old thread get going again. Leaving aside the question of whether or not a lab should point ..... should labs be used as hunters/flushers ? That seems to a common use for the breed in the states but it isn't looked on as any big deal here. We expect labs to be good hunters and flushers but very, very few field trial or even test folk would allow their dogs to do that .... notice I did not say "train their dogs to do that." We expect labs to be born wanting to hunt and flush .... and then we train them not to !

The breeds name in both Britain and America says all that needs to be said.... "Labrador Retriever."

I have seen a few trial bred labs that pointed but if they were intended for field trialing then this was strongly discouraged. It is "in" some labs of very good breeding to point just as it is in some very well bred pointers to retrieve but here in the land of specialist dogs for specialist jobs , labs aren't expected or required to point and I know of nobody that breeds for this trait. Pointers are never expected to retrieve , a trial dog that did would be chucked out of the trial.

Every year wealthy folk take to the grouse moors in pursuit of the Red Grouse. If this is done by shooting over pointers then normally a lab or two will be taken along to retrieve the birds. I used to guide for those shooting parties and very often the British hunters or guns as we call them, were surprised that my HPR's could not only hunt and point but retrieve too. In "proper" shooting parties the pointers do not get to retrieve and the labs do not get to hunt and flush. It would go against tradition.

I am pretty sure that if HPR's did not exist and if I lived in the U.S. I would want a lab , few other breeds can break ice like they do when duck hunting. Few other breeds can retrieve to the same standards. If I allowed the lab to hunt and added a "refinement" such as pointing to the hunting then, the points might look like utter crap but I'd be putting birds in the bag. Labs just have to be one of the best versatile gundogs on the planet.

Bill T.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:55 am

ACooper wrote:I can't wait to get a silver pointing labradoodle. The ultimate versatile. 100% of them point, the best markers when compared with ANY breed, and they don't shed.

I hope you have $880,000 for the deposit lol.

Mountaineer · Post by **Mountaineer** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:58 am

Trekmoor wrote:...Every year wealthy folk take to the grouse moors in pursuit of the Red Grouse. If this is done by shooting over pointers then normally a lab or two will be taken along to retrieve the birds. I used to guide for those shooting parties and very often the British hunters or guns as we call them, were surprised that my HPR's could not only hunt and point but retrieve too. In "proper" shooting parties the pointers do not get to retrieve and the labs do not get to hunt and flush. It would go against tradition....

Well, let's not generalize too much....and accept that "proper" can be in the desires of the individual rather than defining the day....anywhere.
Wealthy would apply to driven grouse shooters more than walked-up red grosue shooters...and, I have walked up red grouse behind pointers and would not fit the moniker of wealthy, as most often defined.
The pointers also retrieved that trip...no labs, save one that followed the landowner as a boon companion.
Generalizing is fine as long as any such comment serves not to misinform as Job #2 and perpetuate a generalization as Job #3.

However, Labs are versatile and wonderful dogs.
I agree.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:25 pm

Geeze! I'd forgotten how funny this thread was. I was thinking about the 10 sec rule and it came to me why only ten sec is required. The handler is never more than ten sec form the dog when it point's! Didn't notice who brought this back but he should be rewarded!

Trekmoor · Post by **Trekmoor** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:53 pm

So is a lab inherently unable to hold point for more than a few seconds or is it more the case that their owners never train them to ? I did allow my labs to hunt and flush but as they were being worked as spaniels I kept the labs in at spaniel hunting distances. Surely there must be a few lab folk on this forum who have dogs that will hunt 100 yards out and remain on point at that range until the handler reaches it ? If I had a pointing lab I could only hunt with the expectation of a 10 second point I probably would retrain it as a flusher.

I think all but one of the labs I saw pointing detected their birds when very close to them and looked like sacks of tatties on point but I'd imagine that after 20+ years of breeding FOR the pointing trait many pointing labs would by now look more intense and would be detecting the birds a bit further out ?

Bill T.

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:03 pm

I have hunted over Labs that hunted and pointed about like any other breed and have done it for years. The big difference was that they don't run as well but plenty good enough for a walking hunter and they lacked the intensity on point that made them look like they were just standing instead of the hard point. And in recent years they have improved greatly in that respect, but people started breeding for the point and it shows. There were always a lot of Labs used in Iowa and quite a few would point back before people started breeding for it.

Ezzy

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:52 pm

Trekmoor wrote:So is a lab inherently unable to hold point for more than a few seconds or is it more the case that their owners never train them to ? I did allow my labs to hunt and flush but as they were being worked as spaniels I kept the labs in at spaniel hunting distances. Surely there must be a few lab folk on this forum who have dogs that will hunt 100 yards out and remain on point at that range until the handler reaches it ? If I had a pointing lab I could only hunt with the expectation of a 10 second point I probably would retrain it as a flusher.

I think all but one of the labs I saw pointing detected their birds when very close to them and looked like sacks of tatties on point but I'd imagine that after 20+ years of breeding FOR the pointing trait many pointing labs would by now look more intense and would be detecting the birds a bit further out ?

Bill T.

I believe the the trait varys widely in individuals, some lean towards sticky flush and some may point staunch naturally. Mine was the later, I let him develop naturally just hunting birds and he basicly holds birds for the gun period, if im 100 yards or more away he'll stand there, he's done this naturally since he was young. If we are hunting phez and im under 50 yards behind he will hold only to assure im there then put up the bird if its moving, he is trained by experience, goal being birds in the bag.

I do think it does greatly depend on how they are brought along, those nearer the sticky flush end of the spectrum can easily be made pure flushers.....

I think range really depends too somewhat on drive, confirmation and again experience, run a young well built lab that points with pointers and they will stretch. The dog below would range out 250 + yards in the Dakotas, just inside the range of my pointers and stay there for a few hours a day. I do think in labs that the longevity of range is short, they'll do it when they are young enough to do it....

I should ad my dog isn't from a breeding choosing for point only a Field trial background......does the style and intensity comes from breeding for it or if making a dog prone to pointing, really bird crazy from the start. I say it can be nurtured and developed to a point but the dog must posses something to begin with.

Not every point looks this good but in his prime a majority of them did... and he could cover some ground.

Doc E · Post by **Doc E** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:51 pm

nikegundog wrote:"Labradors should not be bred or sold to the public as a

pointing breed"

That is exactly correct. Labradors ARE NOT being bred or sold to the public as a POINTING BREED.
They are being bred and sold to the public as Labrador Retrievers that Point --- and not Labrador Retrievers that Flush.
As I already stated on, PLs ARE NOT a seperate breed. They are labrador Retrievers.
I have no arguement with the breed description. They ARE NOT a seperate breed.

.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 7:30 pm

Doc E wrote:That is exactly correct. Labradors ARE NOT being bred or sold to the public as a POINTING BREED.
They are being bred and sold to the public as Labrador Retrievers that Point --- and not Labrador Retrievers that Flush.
As I already stated on, PLs ARE NOT a seperate breed. They are labrador Retrievers.
I have no arguement with the breed description. They ARE NOT a seperate breed.

Really, Pointing Labs aren't being advertised as pointing dogs, funniest thing I've heard in a long time. Simply go to the Parents clubs website they condemn the breeding of them, just as they do Silver Labs and Labradoodles.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:21 pm

You miss the point, they are not being advertised as a pointing breed, they are labrador retrievers by everyone's definition.

Show me where they are being marketed as a pointing breed and not retrievers that also point.

It's beyond me why folks have an issue with a dog being bred and marketed for versatility when they obviously show some of the most versatility
of any breed. They aren't trying to choose for a trait to run them in AF trials they are choosing for a trait that makes them more versatile hunting dogs for those that want it. Whats the big deal? and whats funnier, people breeding more versatile hunting dogs or breed clubs breeding for dogs that can barely even hunt anymore?

lol
Most show dogs wouldn't last for 2 retrieves where I hunt.....and how much fun would this dog be on the prairie after Phez? Now who's funny

Starting to look like Sheepdogs all he needs is a whiskey barrel around his neck

Doc E · Post by **Doc E** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:22 pm

nikegundog wrote: Really, Pointing Labs aren't being advertised as pointing dogs, funniest thing I've heard in a long time. Simply go to the Parents clubs website they condemn the breeding of them, just as they do Silver Labs and Labradoodles.

They ARE NOT being sold as a Pointing BREED ! ! ! ! ! (get your facts straight).
They are being sold as Labrador Retrievers.

Please show me a website where they are advertised as a "Pointing Breed".
They are advertised as being Pointing Labs.
Read the breed description ------ You know, where it says B R E E D !

The breed description mentions NOTHING about them being either a FLUSHUNG Breed or a POINTING Breed.
Why, because they are neither. they are a Retriever breed.
Some Labrador RETRIEVERS Flush and some Labrador RETRIEVERS Point.
Pointing Labradors ARE NOT a seperate breed.......................Get it

Is it really that hard for a person to understand :roll:

.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:51 pm

Doc E wrote:
nikegundog wrote: Really, Pointing Labs aren't being advertised as pointing dogs, funniest thing I've heard in a long time. Simply go to the Parents clubs website they condemn the breeding of them, just as they do Silver Labs and Labradoodles.
They ARE NOT being sold as a Pointing BREED ! ! ! ! ! (get your facts straight).
They are being sold as Labrador Retrievers.

Please show me a website where they are advertised as a "Pointing Breed".
They are advertised as being Pointing Labs.
Read the breed description ------ You know, where it says B R E E D !

The breed description mentions NOTHING about them being either a FLUSHUNG Breed or a POINTING Breed.
Why, because they are neither. they are a Retriever breed.
Some Labrador RETRIEVERS Flush and some Labrador RETRIEVERS Point.
Pointing Labradors ARE NOT a seperate breed.......................Get it
Is it really that hard for a person to understand :roll:

This is the same propaganda put forth by the Silver Lab breeders........

Not one time have I ever said they are a separate breed, just saying that the Labrador Retriever Club says they should not be bred or sold as a pointing breed. The Breed club used the word "pointing breed", when discussing them in their article about designers breeds. Get it? probably not.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:28 pm

This is the same propaganda put forth by the Silver Lab breeders........
Not one time have I ever said they are a separate breed, just saying that the Labrador Retriever Club says they should not be bred or sold as a pointing breed. The Breed club used the word "pointing breed", when discussing them in their article about designers breeds. Get it? probably not.

I was going to stay out of this but I just have to ask why anybody would consider a lab that points to be a designer breed?

Charlie

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:49 pm

This whole argument reminds me of the old axiom "you don't need to fix it if it ain't broke. Labs have been around for years and there has always been some that point. And none of us can say how they have been called but like every other breed they are nice dogs that do a lot of things real well.

Ezzy

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:22 pm

birddogger wrote: I was going to stay out of this but I just have to ask why anybody would consider a lab that points to be a designer breed?
Charlie

Charlie, I used the wrong word, it is under the heading "designer dogs" not "designer breeds", they also included miniature labs under that heading. The LRC claims that miniature labs may very well be pure breds but that should not be bred for the purpose of size. I don't know the reason why the LRC uses the term "designer dogs" for miniature, pointing or silver labs.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:43 am

nikegundog wrote:
birddogger wrote: I was going to stay out of this but I just have to ask why anybody would consider a lab that points to be a designer breed?
Charlie
Charlie, I used the wrong word, it is under the heading "designer dogs" not "designer breeds", they also included miniature labs under that heading. The LRC claims that miniature labs may very well be pure breds but that should not be bred for the purpose of size. I don't know the reason why the LRC uses the term "designer dogs" for miniature, pointing or silver labs.

OK, I guess they are saying that labs shouldn't be bred soley for that purpose. That makes a little more sense to me.

Thanks,
Charlie

D Bros. · Post by **D Bros.** » Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:06 am

Well, I may regret sticking my oar into this pond, but here goes...

Currently, I am on my second pointing Lab. In my opinion, Labs are not a pointing breed, they're flushers/retrievers. But, some of them will point. My first Lab Deacon would, and so does the current pup, Diesel. It's not always the classic point. Sometimes it is, but other times it's just a very intent stare. The breeder I got Diesel from, says right on his website that they do not breed for the point, they consider it a bonus. He also says that their dogs will point birds, and will generally hold the point unless the bird tries to run, and then the dogs will flush them. Then you get to shoot flushed birds, just like with any Lab.

I too consider it to just be a bonus, something that makes my dog more versatile. If he points, great....if not, no big deal. He finds birds for me, either way. It's nice to have a dog that points, and lets me know, "Hey, there's a bird right here!". And to also have a close working upland gundog that flushes and retrieves like a champ, and will also sit in the blind waiting for his chance to retrieve waterfowl. Again, this is just my opinion, but I figure I've kinda got the best of both worlds. Sure, I'd love to have one of the pointing breeds, and maybe someday I will. Until that day, I'm content with my Lab, and plan on getting another one soon.

Double Shot Banks · Post by **Double Shot Banks** » Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:53 pm

Doc E wrote:
nikegundog wrote: Really, Pointing Labs aren't being advertised as pointing dogs, funniest thing I've heard in a long time. Simply go to the Parents clubs website they condemn the breeding of them, just as they do Silver Labs and Labradoodles.
They ARE NOT being sold as a Pointing BREED ! ! ! ! ! (get your facts straight).
They are being sold as Labrador Retrievers.

Please show me a website where they are advertised as a "Pointing Breed".
They are advertised as being Pointing Labs.
Read the breed description ------ You know, where it says B R E E D !

The breed description mentions NOTHING about them being either a FLUSHUNG Breed or a POINTING Breed.
Why, because they are neither. they are a Retriever breed.
Some Labrador RETRIEVERS Flush and some Labrador RETRIEVERS Point.
Pointing Labradors ARE NOT a seperate breed.......................Get it
Is it really that hard for a person to understand :roll:

.

Maybe they say that, but at the pheasant fest this year i talked to a guy selling pointing labs. Trying to convince me his labs were a whole new BREED of labs, ones that have pointed for generations..

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:16 pm

There have been lots of people advertising as well as selling their dogs as pointing Labs for years now. I think what Doc was trying to say was they all are Labrador Retrievers. Think he is right except for the ones that aren't such as Silver Labs and probably some of the other dogs with unusual characteristics such as a mini lab. But the pointing labs are just labs that point to some degree while the others are labs that flush. All are good dogs and do their job pretty well with little training.

Ezzy

duckn66 · Post by **duckn66** » Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:46 pm

A bred to the hilt "pointing" type lab will be hard to find. Never understood the fasination with a lab that can point.

Doc E · Post by **Doc E** » Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:50 pm

Some Labs Flush

Some Labs Point

Both are things of beauty.
It's a fact of life that isn't going to go away.

,

Doc E · Post by **Doc E** » Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:39 pm

From the APLA's (American Pointing Labrador Association) By-laws :

Article II - Objectives and Purpose

The objectives and purpose of the APLA shall be:
Identify, certify, and promote a strain of Labrador Retriever that points game as a natural act while retaining the Labrador's traditional superior ability to retrieve game on land and in water.

Please note the word STRAIN ------- It does NOT say BREED.

.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:46 pm

Doc E wrote:From the APLA's (American Pointing Labrador Association) By-laws :

Article II - Objectives and Purpose

The objectives and purpose of the APLA shall be:
Identify, certify, and promote a strain of Labrador Retriever that points game as a natural act while retaining the Labrador's traditional superior ability to retrieve game on land and in water.

Please note the word STRAIN ------- It does NOT say BREED.

.

You know that and I know that but it doesn'y make it very important in most peoples minds and they are no worse because of it.

Ezzy

big_fish · Post by **big_fish** » Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:54 am

I hope this doesn't stir up the pot a little more but in my observation on nikegundogs avatar it seems it is a pic of a Brittany and in my research on them it seems they are a cross of a springer and a setter then to a pointer. My point is the post started with the pointing lab not having a good backround and that is a cross of 2 breeds and not a pointer.The same argument I'm sure came when the first guy showed up with a Brittany(spaniel until the early 80 s) to a pointing dog comp. way back in the day. Now I have had labs and goldens for about 15 years and now (yes its true) I own a Brittany because I wanted a pointing breed I didn't want a conversion dog. The pointing labs I have seen (I'm not saying all of them) just don't seem to have an intense point again just the ones I have seen.