A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

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birddog1968
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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by birddog1968 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:46 am

clink83 wrote: My personal opinion is that breeding PLs is bad for the breed. Assuming mendelian genetics, breeding a true breeding PL lowers the probability of breeding a dog with correct working conformation and temperment and no genetic disease by 1/4, if its two genes, 1/16, three 1/64 ect.
Sounds good, you used some big words, but i see absolutely no basis in fact in that statement....same could be said for JH SH MH FC , breeding paper is no guarantee either.

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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by LabGuy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:30 am

clink83 wrote:My personal opinion is that breeding PLs is bad for the breed.
PL breeders and regular lab breeders both look for the same characteristics in their labs when choosing to breed - athleticism, bird drive, looks, temperament, etc. The only difference is that PL breeders take it one step beyond and look for a labs ability to point. So how is that making it "bad for the breed"?

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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by nikegundog » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:39 am

LabGuy wrote:
clink83 wrote:My personal opinion is that breeding PLs is bad for the breed.
PL breeders and regular lab breeders both look for the same characteristics in their labs when choosing to breed - athleticism, bird drive, looks, temperament, etc. The only difference is that PL breeders take it one step beyond and look for a labs ability to point. So how is that making it "bad for the breed"?
Because you just shrunk your breeding pool by 98%, so the "ability" to point moves to the head of the line and everything else moves to the back.

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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by LabGuy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:51 am

nikegundog wrote:
LabGuy wrote:
clink83 wrote:My personal opinion is that breeding PLs is bad for the breed.
PL breeders and regular lab breeders both look for the same characteristics in their labs when choosing to breed - athleticism, bird drive, looks, temperament, etc. The only difference is that PL breeders take it one step beyond and look for a labs ability to point. So how is that making it "bad for the breed"?
Because you just shrunk your breeding pool by 98%, so the "ability" to point moves to the head of the line and everything else moves to the back.
And you think that hardcore field trialers don't shrink their own breeding pool? The "ability" to perform in field trials moves to the head of the line and everything else moves back. There is zero difference.
Last edited by LabGuy on Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by Chukar12 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:58 am

nikegundog wrote:Because you just shrunk your breeding pool by 98%, so the "ability" to point moves to the head of the line and everything else moves to the back
My opinion on this is from a base of moderate ignorance. I have "helped" with a few PL's and I keep one around occasionally for my guiding partner. Two of the dogs I know of have temperament issues, both will bite other dogs, and one will bite you if you don't know what you are doing. Both are possessive aggressive, food, water, bedding, etc... I don't believe this is the norm at all, but in this case with related dogs and different owners in different environments I suspect genetics from a narrow gene pool is in play.

With regard to the pointing, I believe they will need some selective out cross to deeper entrenched pointing genetics. Who and how that will get done gets trickier with DNA. There is a market for the dogs and the people who have them that i know are passionate about them. It is hard for me to knock that, if they want a dog that looks and acts like a lab but points, it is hardly a priority in morality as I look around to say they shouldn't have them. However, they should take the proper steps and be honest about their breeding so that they do not dilute or infringe on those who are breeding for more traditional usage.

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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by birddog1968 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:23 am

I think the same point could be made for pure field trial labs.....if you look in most "Labs that Point"'s pedigree you will find its mostly backed up by FC's AFC's and the like. Now people choosing to breed the wrong dogs is another story and takes place with all breeds. If a person gets to know the lines in depth those issues that shouldn't be bred become pretty clear, but people will breed what they want to regardless......

How many EIC carriers got bred to unkown females,knowing the male (usually CH) carried before good genetic testing was done on all dogs. Heck some still don't do genetic testing .....

Most PL pedigrees have plenty of depth to work from....
Last edited by birddog1968 on Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by slistoe » Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:24 am

LabGuy wrote:
nikegundog wrote: Because you just shrunk your breeding pool by 98%, so the "ability" to point moves to the head of the line and everything else moves to the back.
And you think that hardcore field trialers don't shrink their own breeding pool? The "ability" to perform in field trials moves to the head of the line and everything else moves back. There is zero difference.
That is a difference is orders of magnitude, not simply degrees. The ability to perform at the highest levels in the base function of the breed determines form through function. All other "functions" are ancillary to form, substance and temperament requisite to the intended purpose. To breed for secondary functions changes the form of the breed for the worse.

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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by AlbertaChessie » Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:38 am

slistoe wrote:
LabGuy wrote:
nikegundog wrote: Because you just shrunk your breeding pool by 98%, so the "ability" to point moves to the head of the line and everything else moves to the back.
And you think that hardcore field trialers don't shrink their own breeding pool? The "ability" to perform in field trials moves to the head of the line and everything else moves back. There is zero difference.
That is a difference is orders of magnitude, not simply degrees. The ability to perform at the highest levels in the base function of the breed determines form through function. All other "functions" are ancillary to form, substance and temperament requisite to the intended purpose. To breed for secondary functions changes the form of the breed for the worse.

Valid point slistoe. Problem is is that trialing labs are in most cases the furthest thing from what a lab 'should' be as far as being a good field dog. If I ever had someone ask me where to go to get a good handle on what a labrador retriever is all about the last thing i would ever do is send him to look at trialing labs. I think some guys are trying to point out the fact that for every guy breeding to enhance the ability of a lab to point theres 50 guys breeding to simply win trials.....and trialing and hunting in the field are 100% polar opposites.

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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by clink83 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:39 am

nikegundog wrote:
LabGuy wrote:
clink83 wrote:My personal opinion is that breeding PLs is bad for the breed.
PL breeders and regular lab breeders both look for the same characteristics in their labs when choosing to breed - athleticism, bird drive, looks, temperament, etc. The only difference is that PL breeders take it one step beyond and look for a labs ability to point. So how is that making it "bad for the breed"?
Because you just shrunk your breeding pool by 98%, so the "ability" to point moves to the head of the line and everything else moves to the back.
Exactly. The gentotypic frequency of the pointing gene in labs is low, so if you breed to improve the point, you're stuck with whatever other genes those dogs have. So, if they have a higher frequency of EID, hip displasia, eye problems ect, you're going to increase the frequency of those genes in the population. Worse, single genes aren't passed on randomly from parents, they tend to be passed in "chunks" from each chromosome, so if any other negative genes are associated with the locus that has the pointing gene, it will be passed on too. Before I saw what chucker12 posted, I was going to suggest that since the pointing gene has to do with something in the brain, so that could lead to some bad downsteam effects..looks like he beat me to it.

I don't know much about training pointing dogs compared to most on this board, but I know a bit about genetics.

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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:58 am

You know a little bit about genetics and you are trying desperately to use that to prove your opinion. But those same facts are ignored when it doesn't fit your opinion. This whole discussion is a argument about what if's and nothing about reality but that seems to be what some enjoy.

ezzy

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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by clink83 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:02 am

ezzy333 wrote:You know a little bit about genetics and you are trying desperately to use that to prove your opinion. But those same facts are ignored when it doesn't fit your opinion. This whole discussion is a argument about what if's and nothing about reality but that seems to be what some enjoy.

ezzy
I've only made two arguments, one is a gentic one, which is a scientific fact. If you want to dispute that one, go right ahead. Having a bio degree, I love genetics.

The other is that the AKC parent club of labs has designated them designed dogs, which is on their website and is their opinion, and my only opinion is that if your dog is AKC registered, their opinion is law. I've stated that in my personal opinion, I don't care what you breed, as long as you don't register them with a group that prohibits them.

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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by meNtug » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:09 am

I cannot comment on other's dogs, but my father had a lab x gsp cross when he was growing up. She looked very much like a black lab. He used her for ducks and pheasant.

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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by LabGuy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:13 am

clink83 wrote:The gentotypic frequency of the pointing gene in labs is low, so if you breed to improve the point, you're stuck with whatever other genes those dogs have. So, if they have a higher frequency of EID, hip displasia, eye problems ect, you're going to increase the frequency of those genes in the population.
How many PL's do you see that are being bred with EID, hip displasia, eye problems ,etc.? Out of all the PL kennels that I have looked at, their breedings are coming with all the same health clearances as any other lab breeding. You guys are making it sound like there are only 10 dogs out there that are being bred as PL's and they are all destined for genetic failure. Give me a break...

HRCH 4XGMPR Bar None's Snake River Otter MH QAA <--- Can you tell me that this dog was breed for a "secondary function"? Is he seen as "inferior" to other labs because he points?

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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by Chukar12 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:16 am

LabGuy wrote:HRCH 4XGMPR Bar None's Snake River Otter MH QAA
Look at those credentials...doesn't look inferior to me. I would have that sucker look at this odd shaped freckle deal on my arm if he was here.

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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by clink83 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:35 am

LabGuy wrote:
clink83 wrote:The gentotypic frequency of the pointing gene in labs is low, so if you breed to improve the point, you're stuck with whatever other genes those dogs have. So, if they have a higher frequency of EID, hip displasia, eye problems ect, you're going to increase the frequency of those genes in the population.
How many PL's do you see that are being bred with EID, hip displasia, eye problems ,etc.? Out of all the PL kennels that I have looked at, their breedings are coming with all the same health clearances as any other lab breeding. You guys are making it sound like there are only 10 dogs out there that are being bred as PL's and they are all destined for genetic failure. Give me a break...
Noone here can answer that without a widespread genetic study. I doubt you would get an honest answer from most breeders either. However, if as Doc E says, only 10% of labs point that means you're excluding 90% of the gene pool to breed pointing labs. If you think that won't have a big effect on gentics, you're hugely mistaken. What those effects would be are unknown, but it's not likely to be good.

What I can tell you is that this study shows that Labs have fairly high rates of cancer death and joint problems in the population sampled, which shouldn't be ignored.
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/downloa ... riever.pdf

Some of you guys are as bad as show people when it comes to titles. Who cares if a dog has a CH or FC or MH or whatever title if it has arthritis by 6 years, or dies of cancer. There is more to breeding than titles.
Last edited by clink83 on Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by LabGuy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:50 am

clink83 wrote:What I can tell you is that this study shows that Labs have fairly high rates of cancer death and joint problems in the population sampled, which shouldn't be ignored.
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/downloa ... riever.pdf
Don't single labs out on the genetic defect issue. Go to the link below and look at other gundog types (GSP, spaniel, pointer, etc.) Pretty similar between all of them.

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/570

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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by clink83 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:03 pm

Check out the stats on Golden Retrivers..wow.

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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by Winchey » Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:13 pm

I don't know the numbers needed to maintain a genitcally healthy population, but I would venture there are many genetically healthy pure breeds out thete with a total population smaller than 10% of the lab population.

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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by clink83 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:44 pm

Winchey wrote:I don't know the numbers needed to maintain a genitcally healthy population, but I would venture there are many genetically healthy pure breeds out thete with a total population smaller than 10% of the lab population.
Its not so much the size of the gene pool, its the frequency of genes. It can be hard to undersand without a picture imo. This is a good explination of bottlenecks and genetic drift: http://www.darwinwasright.org/genetic_drift.html

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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by buckshot1 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:54 pm

Let me first say that I own a pointing lab and a GSP. My GSP is still young, but comes from very good lines and will hopefully turn into a good field trial dog. I'd still put my pointing lab above my GSP if asked to rank the intensity with which they point birds, and I think very highly of my GSP. When it comes to other factors that make a pointing breed a pointing breed, such as endurance in hot weather, range, propensity to ground scent, etc., there's no doubt that the average dog of a true pointing breed beats the average pointing lab. However, this doesn't mean that some labs don't point very well. I also don't get the hatred for pointing labs. It seems to me that pointing lab breeders are really just making the lab a more versatile breed. Anyone who criticizes pointing labs on the basis that a "retriever" should not point should likewise criticize any "pointer" that retrieves. I see plenty of EPs that retrieve, not to mention GSPs, Brits, and other versatile breeds that are bred to do it all. As long as the PL breeders continue to place highest priority on breeding healthy dogs, I see nothing wrong with breeding for a pointing instinct. I don't see why the lab breed standard should be confined to a little square box when none of the other breeds follow their breed standards. The field trial GSPs in the US don't have much in common with their German counterparts. For that matter, the field trial EPs in the US don't even look like the same breed as the EPs in England. Function over form.

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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by Hunt1Fish2 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:27 pm

How many PL's do you see that are being bred with EID, hip displasia, eye problems ,etc.? Out of all the PL kennels that I have looked at, their breedings are coming with all the same health clearances as any other lab breeding. You guys are making it sound like there are only 10 dogs out there that are being bred as PL's and they are all destined for genetic failure. Give me a break...

HRCH 4XGMPR Bar None's Snake River Otter MH QAA <--- Can you tell me that this dog was breed for a "secondary function"? Is he seen as "inferior" to other labs because he points?

+1

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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by nikegundog » Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:50 pm

LabGuy wrote: HRCH 4XGMPR Bar None's Snake River Otter MH QAA <--- Can you tell me that this dog was breed for a "secondary function"? Is he seen as "inferior" to other labs because he points?
I can't tell if you are being serious or sarcastic, but if you are being serious here goes.......... He's out of a kennel that has 9 bitches and 5 stud dogs and a grand total of one Master Hunter title, His owner is a pro trainer that puts out videos and yet could only hang a MH title on one of his dogs although it says he's campaigning them........... I'm going out on a limb here and sayings "secondary function" :D

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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by Doc E » Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:33 pm

clink83 wrote: My personal opinion is that breeding PLs is bad for the breed. Assuming mendelian genetics, breeding a true breeding PL lowers the probability of breeding a dog with correct working conformation and temperment and no genetic disease by 1/4, if its two genes, 1/16, three 1/64 ect.
If breeding to bring out the Pointing Genes (that have been there forever) doesn't degrade all of the other traits for which a Lab is famous, what does it really matter ?


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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by Doc E » Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:36 pm

nikegundog wrote:Because you just shrunk your breeding pool by 98%, so the "ability" to point moves to the head of the line and everything else moves to the back.
Wrong once again. get your "facts and figures" straight before posting balderdash.


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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by mountaindogs » Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:42 pm

They have several SH titles. SH is no small thing.

That said,
LabGuy wrote:
clink83 wrote:My personal opinion is that breeding PLs is bad for the breed.
PL breeders and regular lab breeders both look for the same characteristics in their labs when choosing to breed - athleticism, bird drive, looks, temperament, etc. The only difference is that PL breeders take it one step beyond and look for a labs ability to point. So how is that making it "bad for the breed"?
Not entirely. Some lab breeders are breeding for good flushing dog traits in addition to retrieveing skills. A good pointing dog is a bad flushing dog. A good flushing dog is a bad pointing dog.

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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by Doc E » Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:49 pm

clink83 wrote: So, if they have a higher frequency of EID, hip displasia, eye problems ect, you're going to increase the frequency of those genes in the population.
What is EID ? Or was that a "typo" :roll:
My PLs are OFA for hips and elbows, CERF normal, CNM clear, EIC clear and PRA clear.


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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by Double Shot Banks » Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:53 pm

Doc E wrote: If breeding to bring out the Pointing Genes (that have been there forever) doesn't degrade all of the other traits for which a Lab is famous, what does it really matter ?
.

I may be wrong..but i have a hard time believing the pointing gene has been in a labs genetics FOREVER... since the breed was first "bred" to the "final product". Because i believe the breed was always a FLUSHING dog until recently.
Isaac and Banks

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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by Doc E » Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:59 pm

Double Shot Banks wrote: I may be wrong..but i have a hard time believing the pointing gene has been in a labs genetics FOREVER... since the breed was first "bred" to the "final product". Because i believe the breed was always a FLUSHING dog until recently.
Isaac and Banks

Wrong once again my 15 year old young man.
One of the foundation dogs bred to the St. John's Water Dog was a Pointing dog......... Which after a couple more crosses (one to a Setter) ended up being the Labrador Retriever.
So yes, my young man, pointing genes have been in the Lab from the very origins.
When you are done studying your homework from school, look it up and learn some Labrador history.



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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by Double Shot Banks » Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:04 pm

Doc E wrote:[
Wrong once again my 15 year old young man.
One of the foundation dogs bred to the St. John's Water Dog was a Pointing dog......... Which after a couple more crosses (one to a Setter) ended up being the Labrador Retriever.
So yes, my young man, pointing genes have been in the Lab from the very origins.
When you are done studying your homework from school, look it up and learn some Labrador history.

But was the lab bred to be a pointing breed? or did they want something new, a flushing dog and retriever... again i dont know, but was the lab (when first bred) meant to be a pointing dog, or did it just have the gene in it?

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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by Winchey » Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:21 pm

When it was first bred the creators probably could care less if it pointed or not and could care less if someone used it one way or the other.

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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by nikegundog » Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:23 pm

Double Shot Banks wrote: But was the lab bred to be a pointing breed? or did they want something new, a flushing dog and retriever... again i dont know, but was the lab (when first bred) meant to be a pointing dog, or did it just have the gene in it?
Doubleshot, if you have a couple minutes.
http://www.gundogmag.com/2010/09/23/gun ... _lab_0616/

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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by ACooper » Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:26 pm

I don't think the lab was bred to be a pointing or flushing dog it was developed as a retriever.

I am not sure why I care as I am never likely to own a pointing lab, to me pointing labs just feel too much like "fad colored" dogs. I would bet that for many breeders the number one criteria for breeding is the "point".

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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by Winchey » Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:27 pm

Actually weren't Labs first bred to haul fishing nets?

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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by ACooper » Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:31 pm

Winchey wrote:Actually weren't Labs first bred to haul fishing nets?
Yes if I am not mistaken they were developed to retrieve fisherman's nets.

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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by LabGuy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:37 pm

nikegundog wrote:
LabGuy wrote: HRCH 4XGMPR Bar None's Snake River Otter MH QAA <--- Can you tell me that this dog was breed for a "secondary function"? Is he seen as "inferior" to other labs because he points?
I can't tell if you are being serious or sarcastic, but if you are being serious here goes.......... He's out of a kennel that has 9 bitches and 5 stud dogs and a grand total of one Master Hunter title, His owner is a pro trainer that puts out videos and yet could only hang a MH title on one of his dogs although it says he's campaigning them........... I'm going out on a limb here and sayings "secondary function" :D
http://www.bearpointkennel.com/. Great breeding program with proven pointing abilities.

http://pointing-lab.com/. Yet again, another solid breeding program with proven pointing abilities.

Everyone agrees that a lab is not a pointing breed. They were originally nothing but a retriever. But can they point and still perform the abilities that they are well known for today? The breeding programs above have proven that they can. Are people breeding to leverage that ability? Yes - some people are doing it right and others are doing it wrong. There are bad breeders in every breed of gundog. Everyone can say what they want about PLs but they are here to stay and will continue to challenge your typical pointing breeds as an all around gundog. Case closed.

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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by Winchey » Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:38 pm

I feel the breed is being ruined by those who use it on waterfowl rather then nets as it was originally intended. I don't think they should even be allowed off the island.

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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by ACooper » Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:43 pm

Winchey wrote:I feel the breed is being ruined by those who use it on waterfowl rather then nets as it was originally intended. I don't think they should even be allowed off the island.
Maybe if we breed a little pointer in them they will fetch the nets faster?

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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by Doc E » Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:48 pm

Double Shot Banks wrote:


But was the lab bred to be a pointing breed? or did they want something new, a flushing dog and retriever... again i dont know, but was the lab (when first bred) meant to be a pointing dog, or did it just have the gene in it?

When first bred, the Lab was only supposed to be a retriever (of fishermen's nets as others have mentioned) as well as the occassional injured fish that escaped the nets.
There were also flushing genes present and pointing genes present.



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clink83
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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by clink83 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:51 pm

Doc E wrote:
nikegundog wrote:Because you just shrunk your breeding pool by 98%, so the "ability" to point moves to the head of the line and everything else moves to the back.
Wrong once again. get your "facts and figures" straight before posting balderdash.


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Actually, once again hes right and you don't have a clue what you're talking about. If as you say about 10% of labs point, then by breeding that 10% together to improve the pointing trait you are creating founder effect.
The founder effect is a special case of genetic drift, occurring when a small group in a population splinters off from the original population and forms a new one. The new colony may have less genetic variation than the original population, and through the random sampling of alleles during reproduction of subsequent generations, continue rapidly towards fixation. This consequence of inbreeding makes the colony more vulnerable to extinction.
When a newly formed colony is small, its founders can strongly affect the population's genetic makeup far into the future. In humans, which have a slow reproduction rate, the population will remain small for many generations, effectively amplifying the drift effect generation after generation until the population reaches a certain size. Alleles which were present but relatively rare in the original population can move to one of two extremes. The most common one is that the allele is soon lost altogether, but the other possibility is that the allele survives and within a few generations has become much more dispersed throughout the population. The new colony can experience an increase in the frequency of recessive alleles as well, and as a result, an increased number who are homozygous for certain recessive traits.
The variation in gene frequency between the original population and colony may also trigger the two groups to diverge significantly over the course of many generations. As the variance, or genetic distance, increases, the two separated populations may become distinctively different, both genetically and phenotypically, although not only genetic drift but also natural selection, gene flow and mutation will all contribute to this divergence.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founder_effect
Doc E wrote: If breeding to bring out the Pointing Genes (that have been there forever) doesn't degrade all of the other traits for which a Lab is famous, what does it really matter ?
Who ever said anything about breeding them OUT?
Thats a complicated question, with a complicated answer. Depending on where that allele is, and what its associated with, you might be able to get rid of it without any bad effects, or you might not. Genes get passed on in groups, not on a gene by gene basis.
In the grand scheme of things, you could breed it OUT with very little negative effect because 90% of the population does not have that gene/trait, so you wouldn't create founder effect. There are tons of quality labs to breed that don't point but do everything else rwell. Breeding for rare traits is what causes problems, not for breeding for what most of thedogs already do.

EIC vs EID...I post on a dumbphone about half the time. C and D are right next to each other.
Last edited by clink83 on Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:04 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Winchey
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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by Winchey » Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:53 pm

I think the drug the nets out as well. I watched a show once about a woman training a portugese water dog for a fish dog trial. It was pretty cool actually.

And cooper if we did that, if the dog didn't sink like a rock and drown as pointers can not swim it would surely freeze to death in coastal Newfoundland, lol.

clink83
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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by clink83 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:08 pm

LabGuy wrote:
And you think that hardcore field trialers don't shrink their own breeding pool? The "ability" to perform in field trials moves to the head of the line and everything else moves back. There is zero difference.
What makes a good field trail dog? A dog that has a stable temperment, good conformation, takes pressure, and is able to hunt well. You would be hard pressed to tell me that is a bad thing. Field trialers aren't breeding for rare traits, they are breeding for qualities that define the breed. Not to mention FT guys can line breed for the type of dog they want, then outcross to get back variation. With a pointing lab that's not an option.

There is a huge difference between breeding a retriever for either a long forgotten relative or an outcross. Do you think there might be more than a casual coincidence that silver labs somehow appeared in a three colored breed that never had the dilute recessive gene that is really only found in one other common "pointing" breed?

My dog is from pretty serious field trial lines, fits the breed standard, has a good temperment, learns fast, hunts well, and loves people. What else could I ask for in a dog?
Last edited by clink83 on Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:19 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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brad27
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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by brad27 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:11 pm

^+1

slistoe
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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by slistoe » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:13 pm

AlbertaChessie wrote:Problem is is that trialing labs are in most cases the furthest thing from what a lab 'should' be as far as being a good field dog. If I ever had someone ask me where to go to get a good handle on what a labrador retriever is all about the last thing i would ever do is send him to look at trialing labs. I think some guys are trying to point out the fact that for every guy breeding to enhance the ability of a lab to point theres 50 guys breeding to simply win trials.....and trialing and hunting in the field are 100% polar opposites.
This is darn near as comical as your "Labs aren't the best markers" comment.

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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by birddog1968 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:14 pm

If you look at alot of PL pedigrees they aren't line breedings on dogs that show point, they are actually pretty diverse pedigrees.

LabGuy
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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by LabGuy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:21 pm

clink83 wrote:
LabGuy wrote:
And you think that hardcore field trialers don't shrink their own breeding pool? The "ability" to perform in field trials moves to the head of the line and everything else moves back. There is zero difference.
What makes a good field trail dog? A dog that has a stable temperment, good conformation, takes pressure, and is able to hunt well. You would be hard pressed to tell me that is a bad thing. Field trialers aren't breeding for rare traits, they are breeding for qualities that define the breed. There is a huge difference between breeding a retriever for either a long forgotten relative or an outcross. Do you think there might be more than a casual coincidence that silver labs somehow appeared in a three colored breed that never had the dilute recessive gene that is really only found in one common pointing breed?

My dog is from pretty serious field trial lines, fits the breed standard, has a good temperment, learns fast, hunts well, and loves people. What else could I ask for in a dog?
And pointing lab breeders don't look for the same traits? Everyone sees the bad breeders of PLs and automatically assumes all of them are ruining the breed. I provided a couple links above to some pretty stellar breeding programs. Guarantee that they aren't breeding based purely on point.

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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by nikegundog » Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:27 pm

LabGuy wrote: And pointing lab breeders don't look for the same traits? Everyone sees the bad breeders of PLs and automatically assumes all of them are ruining the breed. I provided a couple links above to some pretty stellar breeding programs. Guarantee that they aren't breeding based purely on point.
A breeder with 18 dogs with most having JH titles or no retrieving titles at all, is not my definition as a stellar breeding program. And yes that is from your link.

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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:45 pm

Double Shot Banks wrote:
Doc E wrote: If breeding to bring out the Pointing Genes (that have been there forever) doesn't degrade all of the other traits for which a Lab is famous, what does it really matter ?
.

I may be wrong..but i have a hard time believing the pointing gene has been in a labs genetics FOREVER... since the breed was first "bred" to the "final product". Because i believe the breed was always a FLUSHING dog until recently.
Isaac and Banks
I have seen Labs that point in the field for the past 40 years. And I am sure some did before that. I do think we have more people actually breeding to improve the point now than ever before and it shows as the ones I see today do point with more intensity than the older ones but I think you will find the pointing gene if there even is such a thing has been there for many many years which kind of says it has always been there.

Ezzy

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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:57 pm

nikegundog wrote:
LabGuy wrote: And pointing lab breeders don't look for the same traits? Everyone sees the bad breeders of PLs and automatically assumes all of them are ruining the breed. I provided a couple links above to some pretty stellar breeding programs. Guarantee that they aren't breeding based purely on point.
A breeder with 18 dogs with most having JH titles or no retrieving titles at all, is not my definition as a stellar breeding program. And yes that is from your link.
If that is true then most if not all of the old breeders that developed our dogs were not stellar breeders either. Titles do not the dog or the owner make. It just helps the novice know that someone else likes the dog.

Ezzy

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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by nikegundog » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:30 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
nikegundog wrote:
LabGuy wrote: And pointing lab breeders don't look for the same traits? Everyone sees the bad breeders of PLs and automatically assumes all of them are ruining the breed. I provided a couple links above to some pretty stellar breeding programs. Guarantee that they aren't breeding based purely on point.
A breeder with 18 dogs with most having JH titles or no retrieving titles at all, is not my definition as a stellar breeding program. And yes that is from your link.
If that is true then most if not all of the old breeders that developed our dogs were not stellar breeders either. Titles do not the dog or the owner make. It just helps the novice know that someone else likes the dog.

Ezzy
I would imagine that you didn't haul 18 dogs around trying to get JH titles on them either. :D

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Re: A pointing lab is just a lab/cross

Post by LabGuy » Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:29 am

nikegundog wrote:
LabGuy wrote: And pointing lab breeders don't look for the same traits? Everyone sees the bad breeders of PLs and automatically assumes all of them are ruining the breed. I provided a couple links above to some pretty stellar breeding programs. Guarantee that they aren't breeding based purely on point.
A breeder with 18 dogs with most having JH titles or no retrieving titles at all, is not my definition as a stellar breeding program. And yes that is from your link.
Ha! I have only been on this forum for 20 posts or so and based upon what i have seen, bashing seems to be the only thing your good at on this forum. Thank you for your contributions.

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