Breeder Question

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:32 am

Ron R wrote:
DogNewbie wrote:Judge Judy might side with you, but I'm not confident a real judge would.

I'm not sure why but I found that to be pretty funny.

haha, well that might be an option. Not entirely sure how her show works but I'm pretty sure the defendant and accuser both sign legal documents saying they will do whatever Judy says. And I do know she is not a real Judge so maybe she'll do the common sense thing instead of the legal thing. haha who knows. Too bad the OP lives in Ontario...

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:37 am

I have never seen Judge Judy...but did you see that Forbes magazine reports that her contract is 45 million annually...and I don't think she even owns a bird dog.

It's a crying shame really...

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:39 am

Chukar12 wrote:I have never seen Judge Judy...but did you see that Forbes magazine reports that her contract is 45 million annually...and I don't think she even owns a bird dog.

It's a crying shame really...

hahaha. Image the pigeon coop she could build with that kinda cash! Such a waste!

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:04 am

As far as writing a letter, or having a lawyer write one ... my thinking wasn't HIRE a lawyer. My thinking was find a lawyer friend willing to do it for you. Or will let you write one and is willing to sign their name to it. Absolutely nothing illegal about it, and you just want to make the guy think you're willing to go to court in the hopes that he'll give up. HE doesn't want to go to court either.

Of course, if he's done this before, he might also might know enough to tell you to go pound sand. Either way, you've lost nothing other than the $400 you weren't going to get back anyway.

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 11:06 am

phermes1 wrote:As far as writing a letter, or having a lawyer write one ... my thinking wasn't HIRE a lawyer. My thinking was find a lawyer friend willing to do it for you. Or will let you write one and is willing to sign their name to it. Absolutely nothing illegal about it, and you just want to make the guy think you're willing to go to court in the hopes that he'll give up. HE doesn't want to go to court either.

Of course, if he's done this before, he might also might know enough to tell you to go pound sand. Either way, you've lost nothing other than the $400 you weren't going to get back anyway.

+1 if you can do it without losing cash. Can't hurt

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:04 pm

Is there anyway you could post the contract without putting the breeders name on it? Do you have small claims court in Canada? The fact that it says "No Refunds" carries absolutely no weight in Court when the seller fails to produce a product. Someone else mentioned about a no refund Hotel situation, which he was off base on, the Hotel held up there end of the bargain (holding a room), the one that purchased the room didn't hold up there end (showing up), this is the exact opposite of what happened in this case.

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:21 pm

For all of those that think he has a leg to stand on, why don't you donate the moeny for him to go to Court? Go ahead.

I am guessing the vast majority of the folks providing that kind of response have never and will never go to court. Civil small claims are based solely on the preponderance of evidence and that contract is still valid in that the next litter is coming. Just because it's not going to be when HE wants it does not mean it is not coming.

You have to take the emotion out of thise and respond to the facts.

- A letter from an attorney may trigger a response.
- A phone call with the breeder may trigger a response.
- A trip to court may result in your money back but a considerable amount of out of pocket expenses to get it.
- It also may result in you losing out on court costs and filing fees and no money back.
- A campaign to drag the breeder's name through the mud may give you personal satisfaction - and it may land you in court for libel and slander if you
're not careful.

Good Luck!

Justin

bigdaddy · Post by **bigdaddy** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:25 pm

I am not an attorney, nor do I think you need one. I don't play one on TV. I do, however have some experience with small claims court and with winning cases pro se against attorneys in civil court, in the US. This is not legal advice.

Write a letter to the breeder demanding return of your deposit within seven (7) days. Send it certified mail or FedEx, something that has proof of delivery. Include that you will (not may or might or could) file with the court if you do not have your money back by the deadline. This is a slam dunk in small claims court. A contract consists of three elements; offer, acceptance and consideration. The breeder could show offer and acceptance. However, he has not provided sufficient consideration. The purpose of your contract (as you describe it) was not for a deposit, it was for a pup. You did not pay him for the promise of a future pup. You paid him for a pup which he did not deliver. His promise of a pup from a future (hypothetical) breeding is not sufficient consideration for your $400.

shags · Post by **shags** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:30 pm

performance, in law, act of doing that which is required by a contract. The effect of successful performance is to discharge the person bound to do the act from any future contractual liability.

Each party to the contract is bound to perform promises according to the stipulated terms. In case of any controversy as to the meaning of a promise, the courts have usually decided that a person must perform it as the other party reasonably understood it to be. Thus, a preference for the rights of the one who is to receive the benefit of the promise is established.

Attempts to establish hard and fast rules about reasonable interpretations of promises are now discouraged. Although at one time a person would be held to the literal meaning of the contract provisions stating a promise, the requirement now is to perform the true meaning and intent of the contract, which may not correspond with the fine print.

Googled this then contacted my sister who manages a law office. It's pretty clear that the breeder did not perform the contract to provide a puppy. Who's to say the breeder even attempted a breeding or will do so in the future? The guys in the office say 'go get 'em'.

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:36 pm

bigdaddy wrote:I am not an attorney, nor do I think you need one. I don't play one on TV. I do, however have some experience with small claims court and with winning cases pro se against attorneys in civil court, in the US. This is not legal advice.

Write a letter to the breeder demanding return of your deposit within seven (7) days. Send it certified mail or FedEx, something that has proof of delivery. Include that you will (not may or might or could) file with the court if you do not have your money back by the deadline. This is a slam dunk in small claims court. A contract consists of three elements; offer, acceptance and consideration. The breeder could show offer and acceptance. However, he has not provided sufficient consideration. The purpose of your contract (as you describe it) was not for a deposit, it was for a pup. You did not pay him for the promise of a future pup. You paid him for a pup which he did not deliver. His promise of a pup from a future (hypothetical) breeding is not sufficient consideration for your $400.

Consideration
An exchange of consideraton must be included in any valid contract. Between the parties something of real value must be exchanged, whether it can be cash, tangible objects, the performance of an act, an agreement to refrain from performance of an act that the party has the right to perform or a promise of future consideration. The difference between the exchange of consideration and a unilateral promise is that a promise to do something without an exchange of consideration is not an enforceable contract. For example, if Joe tells Jack that he will give him a ride to work, Joe has made a promise. If, on the other hand, Joe tells Jack he will give him a ride to work in exchange for parking money, consideration has been exchanged.

Am I reading this wrong, or does this say consideration has been exchanged thus the contract is valid?

Here is site I found it on

http://www.otto-graph.com/samples/3/contractlaw.html

bigdaddy · Post by **bigdaddy** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:41 pm

That says that there has to be consideration on both sides, or the contract is NOT valid.

My point was that the consideration provided by the breeder was not sufficient (a requisite for a valid contract) because the purpose of the contract was to purchase a dog. Not to give a deposit. The missing of the dam's cycle frustrated the purpose of the contract.

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:49 pm

bigdaddy wrote:That says that there has to be consideration on both sides, or the contract is NOT valid.

My point was that the consideration provided by the breeder was not sufficient (a requisite for a valid contract) because the purpose of the contract was to purchase a dog. Not to give a deposit. The missing of the dam's cycle frustrated the purpose of the contract.

So to put it into this situation, an offer to buy a pup was made, the breeder considered it and wrote up a contract, the buyer considered the contract and both agreed to it, however, they agreed to different understandings of the agreement and thus the breeder is in the wrong because the contract wasn't detailed enough, meaning he didn't consider the offer to a sufficient level?

Is that correct?

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:51 pm

Here is the catch is it worth it even if he does go to court and win? If he just wants to prove a point yes but if he wants to come out with money in his pocket maybe not.
Even if he does win who's to say the breeder will return the money if he doesn't what further recourse does depositer have?
File a lean on property the breeder may own & untill he sells said property still can't be made to pay.Every so many yrs a fee to keep the lean open has to be paid,like I said is it worth it?

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 12:56 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Here is the catch is it worth it even if he does go to court and win? If he just wants to prove a point yes but if he wants to come out with money in his pocket maybe not.
Even if he does win who's to say the breeder will return the money if he doesn't what further recourse does depositer have?
File a lean on property the breeder may own & untill he sells said property still can't be made to pay.Every so many yrs a fee to keep the lean open has to be paid,like I said is it worth it?

Can't he ask for compensation for his efforts to get this money back if he wins? Also, I think it's a misdemeanor to directly disobey a court order..

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:08 pm

Dogwise I'm not a lawyer,I only know what I stated has happened to a freind of mine.They bought a used camper the seller told them every thing in it worked but once they got home found out the fridge did not.
This was a verbal deal NO Wriiten Contract they contacted him & more or less said sorry about your luck.They bought a new fridge & installed it @ about $700,they went to court won but never got a dime.
They put a lean on his house but have to renew it every so many yrs.My friend passed 3 yrs ago & never collected last time I asked him don't know if his wife has since or contined renewing the lean.
They bought the camper back in the eighties so maybe the law has changed since but have my doubts.

Kinda like the old saying "You can't get blood out of a turnip"

bigdaddy · Post by **bigdaddy** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:41 pm

DogNewbie wrote:
bigdaddy wrote:That says that there has to be consideration on both sides, or the contract is NOT valid.

My point was that the consideration provided by the breeder was not sufficient (a requisite for a valid contract) because the purpose of the contract was to purchase a dog. Not to give a deposit. The missing of the dam's cycle frustrated the purpose of the contract.
So to put it into this situation, an offer to buy a pup was made, the breeder considered it and wrote up a contract, the buyer considered the contract and both agreed to it, however, they agreed to different understandings of the agreement and thus the breeder is in the wrong because the contract wasn't detailed enough, meaning he didn't consider the offer to a sufficient level?

Is that correct?

No.

Consideration, in this sense, is something you receive. Think of it as compensation. Here's an example. You loan me $1,000 and we agree that I will pay you back $1,000. This is not a contract because you are not to receive any consideration for the loan. Under an agreement like this, even in writing, I could walk off with your $$ and you couldn't (legally) do anything about it.

Dogwise I'm not a lawyer,I only know what I stated has happened to a freind of mine.They bought a used camper the seller told them every thing in it worked but once they got home found out the fridge did not.
This was a verbal deal NO Wriiten Contract they contacted him & more or less said sorry about your luck.They bought a new fridge & installed it @ about $700,they went to court won but never got a dime.
They put a lean on his house but have to renew it every so many yrs.My friend passed 3 yrs ago & never collected last time I asked him don't know if his wife has since or contined renewing the lean.
They bought the camper back in the eighties so maybe the law has changed since but have my doubts.

Kinda like the old saying "You can't get blood out of a turnip"

You can lean against a house or trailer all you want. Once the OP has a judgment against the breeder, he could obtain his money by executing a lien or a levy. I would assume that the OP saw enough assets to assume that the breeder had a business, so there must be something that is recoverable.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:44 pm

Buckeye_V wrote:For all of those that think he has a leg to stand on, why don't you donate the moeny for him to go to Court? Go ahead.

I am guessing the vast majority of the folks providing that kind of response have never and will never go to court. Civil small claims are based solely on the preponderance of evidence and that contract is still valid in that the next litter is coming. Just because it's not going to be when HE wants it does not mean it is not coming.

You have to take the emotion out of thise and respond to the facts.

- A letter from an attorney may trigger a response.
- A phone call with the breeder may trigger a response.
- A trip to court may result in your money back but a considerable amount of out of pocket expenses to get it.
- It also may result in you losing out on court costs and filing fees and no money back.
- A campaign to drag the breeder's name through the mud may give you personal satisfaction - and it may land you in court for libel and slander if you
're not careful.

Good Luck!

Justin

Justin, I think the only thing we might not agree on is whether or not a trip to court would be futile. Other than that, yeah, all your bullet points are pretty much right on, IMO.

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 2:30 pm

bigdaddy wrote: No.

Consideration, in this sense, is something you receive. Think of it as compensation. Here's an example. You loan me $1,000 and we agree that I will pay you back $1,000. This is not a contract because you are not to receive any consideration for the loan. Under an agreement like this, even in writing, I could walk off with your $$ and you couldn't (legally) do anything about it.

Ok I think I get it.... or I'm just going to quit trying. :roll: I'm glad I'm not in law...So you're saying that the contract is not binding because only the buyer offered consideration. For the contract to be valid both party's must exchange consideration...$ for a pup. $ were given, no pup was given.

This is from Wikipedia:
"An illusory promise, or one which the promisor actually has no obligation to keep, does not count as consideration. The promise must be real and unconditional."

DougB · Post by **DougB** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:57 pm

Legal advice on the internet is worth every cent you pay, and I haven't studied it for over 40 years .
The wording of any contract will decide what happens. The "no refund" does not mean you can not get a court order to get your money back, but the terms outlined in the contract decide when. If it says the deposit will be applied to the next breeding, you have to wait. If the breeder makes no attempt to breed the dog, or there are not enough pups to match up with all the deposits, you can start an action. Court fees are charged to the loser of the action, and if the loser refuses to pay, the judge can take the money from the losers bank account. Keep the deposit check. If it has the breeders account number, life is easier. The "no refund" doesn't give the breeder a right to keep your money for an extended length of time.
In a small claims court, it's about who can prove what. If you can not document something, it means nothing.

DogNewbie wrote: Consideration, in this sense, is something you receive. Think of it as compensation. Here's an example. You loan me $1,000 and we agree that I will pay you back $1,000. This is not a contract because you are not to receive any consideration for the loan. Under an agreement like this, even in writing, I could walk off with your $$ and you couldn't (legally) do anything about it.

This is wrong. When the money is given to you, you have the consideration in hand. The $1000 is the consideration that binds you to the contract.
In this case, the breeder has accepted the deposit money (consideration) and can be held to the contract to provide a pup per specs given. Otherwise, contract law becomes a little moot.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:07 pm

Then I guess my friend should have told the judge to do his job huh? Believe as you want I know what they had to do & as far as I know up to 3 yrs ago anyway they never got a penny & her father was a lawyer.
What makes you think everyone has money in the bank or even a bank account for that matter? Something else I forgot to mention when they filed the lien they had to stand in line wasn't the first lien against his property.A crook is a crook & alot of them find away around the legalities believe it or not.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:09 pm

A "real" judge will ask the breeder for a ETA and the breeder will be held to that date
No puppy,money returned

It's really not all that complicated

Munster · Post by **Munster** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 6:54 pm

Hard to believe that 2 back to back breeding didnt take. Are you sure they just didnt have alitter sold already. Maybe a miscommunication?

It isnt uncommon with our breed for breeders to take deposits when a planned breeding is announced. But, there should be no reason to not be able to get that money back if the breeding didnt take.
The option should have been given to you to either get your deposit back or the OPTION to move your money down the line.
But, buyer beware is how it should go anyways.

Now, I would like to know what breed you were trying to buy. I opnly ask because if this is something that is going on with my breed of dog I would like to find out what is up. You can and I guess I would prefer you to PM the breed if you wouldnt mind. I ask because you said that this is a lesser known breed.

I am sure that whatever breed of dog this is, what you are going through is a reflection of the breeder and not the dogs.

3Britts · Post by **3Britts** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:19 pm

You do have some legal avenues at your command as "all" contracts of this kind must have a forseeable completion date.
Also a question. Did you actually sign a contract or does it just day that the deposit will be rolled over to the next litter?
If you did not sign a contact, you cannot be bound by the language of the contract as there is no evidence of a contact
being in place. The money was just a down payment for a puppy from the upcoming litter.

TVW · Post by **TVW** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:48 pm

3Britts wrote:You do have some legal avenues at your command as "all" contracts of this kind must have a forseeable completion date.
Also a question. Did you actually sign a contract or does it just day that the deposit will be rolled over to the next litter?
If you did not sign a contact, you cannot be bound by the language of the contract as there is no evidence of a contact
being in place. The money was just a down payment for a puppy from the upcoming litter.

I signed a contract and that contract says - verbatim:

Conditions: All dogs are sold with a non-breeding agreement. Dogs are guaranty 3 years against disease
causing death and dysplasia. No refund will be made. A dog will be replace if you do have proof that your
dog is not in good health and proven by our veterinarian (transportation fees not included) Dog is return to
breeder if you do not want it anymore with no refunding.

If the coupling did not work, your deposit will be place on the next litter.
Deposit: $400.00 (non-refundable)
Balance on shipping: $600.00 (one month before delivery, transportation fees extra)
Extra for first choice (2 per litter): $200.00

The way the breeder has explained to me this means your deposit goes towards the next litter that actually happens. Yes, tough spot to be in, but one I put myself in. Just hope this doesn't happen to anyone else. I'm sure many have had good experiences with this guy, I have not.

QuailHollow · Post by **QuailHollow** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 4:12 am

TVW wrote: I signed a contract and that contract says - verbatim:

Conditions: All dogs are sold with a non-breeding agreement. Dogs are guaranty 3 years against disease
causing death and dysplasia. No refund will be made. A dog will be replace if you do have proof that your
dog is not in good health and proven by our veterinarian (transportation fees not included) Dog is return to
breeder if you do not want it anymore with no refunding.

If the coupling did not work, your deposit will be place on the next litter.
Deposit: $400.00 (non-refundable)
Balance on shipping: $600.00 (one month before delivery, transportation fees extra)
Extra for first choice (2 per litter): $200.00

The way the breeder has explained to me this means your deposit goes towards the next litter that actually happens. Yes, tough spot to be in, but one I put myself in. Just hope this doesn't happen to anyone else. I'm sure many have had good experiences with this guy, I have not.

"If the coupling did not work, your deposit will be place on the next litter.
Deposit: $400.00 (non-refundable)"

This is too vague and open ended. This could go on forever. There needs to be stipulation indicating the amount of time that can lapse here. 1 year. 2 years?
I would have put a clause int here stating "In the event that a viable litter is not produced within one year of this contract's signing, the full deposit amount will be refunded." Forcing people to be your customer by sitting on their money is dishonest. Not a legitimate exchange. The truth is, they probably do not manage money well themselves. My dog 'business' - if you want to call it that - has its own bank account. Any money received (by selling of puppies) or spent (on food, vet bills, entry fees, etc) comes out of that account. If I accept a deposit, I do not touch it - as it it not *mine* until I provide a healthy puppy that has been vetted.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 4:27 am

Sounds like the perfect contract for a con artist.
He can have you wait indefinitely.
I would let a judge decide.
You may be surprised how easy it would be to show this guy is taking money without any intentions of actually producing a litter,esp. if an escrow type account was not set up and the money was spent.
Make inquiries with his breed club.
You will either have a puppy or your money back within 6 months.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:03 am

Is there anything stopping you from selling the puppy once it's received?

I'm thinking find another breeder for a puppy you want to keep.
When THIS breeding actually happens, get the puppy then re-sell it. If he feels that that is in violation of your contract, then he can decide if it's worth going to court over.

3Britts · Post by **3Britts** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 4:49 pm

All contract have to have a reasonable expectation of fulfillment. This one id too vague. Let a judge decide.
Before you take the breeder to court, make sure that you get some emails where you ask for a solid date that the breeding will take place.
You might also want to find out how old his breeding stock are. Just incase they are past it.

smokinsam · Post by **smokinsam** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:13 pm

this whole thing is just crap!!sorry
this guys a real jackass and a con artist!!

I personally would never purchase a dog from someone with a "no breeding" clause in a contract anyhow.
JMO.after i pay you for the dog it is now mine. who are you to tell me what i can and cannot do with MY DOG!

Ryman Gun Dog · Post by **Ryman Gun Dog** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 12:59 pm

TVW,
You now understand why we have developed a breeders list to supply gun dogs for our clients, your situation happens all to often.
Unfortunately if your contract says no refunds, you are pretty well stuck, until the breeder delivers a pup. My advise is to never sign a contract like the one
this breeder presents. With forums like this one perspective owners can ask questions prior to putting down a deposit, wish you would have asked about this
kind of contract and breeder prior to the deposit.
RGD/Dave

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 1:49 pm

Ryman Gun Dog wrote:TVW,
You now understand why we have developed a breeders list to supply gun dogs for our clients, your situation happens all to often.
Unfortunately if your contract says no refunds, you are pretty well stuck, until the breeder delivers a pup. My advise is to never sign a contract like the one
this breeder presents. With forums like this one perspective owners can ask questions prior to putting down a deposit, wish you would have asked about this
kind of contract and breeder prior to the deposit.
RGD/Dave

With out a doubt there are a few that are not on the up and up. But thank God it is rare. Most people are honest and do there best to provide a good puppy to the buyers.

I have never found a need to have someone make a list of the dogs or owners I like but if someone needs that it is nice you do it for free.

Ezzy

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:05 pm

Over 2 years ago I had a breeding planned and had 2 deposits. The breeding was fresh AI, and did not take. We planned a rebreeding of course, but I still offered the deposits back to both individuals. One took back the deposit and bought a puppy from the same sire different dam, elsewhere. The other stuck it out to wait. While we waited, for my girl to cycle again, the sire had to be retired from breeding and we chose one of his sons, instead. Again we gave the deposit holder the opt-out as it was a different breeding. Again he decided to wait. The breeding took, we had a fantastic litter, and he just recently recieved his dog shipped across country that he has been waiting on for 2 years. In the end, I want buyers happy. I don't want mad buyers with my puppies feeling stuck. It's less the money and more that the new team should be 100% happy together.

All that said, if the contract is that clear, you will probably have to wait. It does sound a bit like they might have this happen often?? I would not really have thought to put that in a contract, but perhaps that is because of my take on it is different....

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:40 pm

phermes1 wrote:Is there anything stopping you from selling the puppy once it's received?

I'm thinking find another breeder for a puppy you want to keep.
When THIS breeding actually happens, get the puppy then re-sell it. If he feels that that is in violation of your contract, then he can decide if it's worth going to court over.

I believe this is a good plan.
Actually you send that puppy to me, and I'll get it started for you

I LOVE starting puppies!

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 4:15 pm

The contract issue has been argued befor some STRONGLY FOR them some STRONLY AGAINST.I am of the AGAINST group & would never buy from anyone asking for one & would never sell with one.
I have taken a couple dogs back & refunded money but I have never returned a dog I bought.If my word is not good enough then niether is your money.

bigdaddy · Post by **bigdaddy** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 7:20 pm

TVW wrote:
3Britts wrote:You do have some legal avenues at your command as "all" contracts of this kind must have a forseeable completion date.
Also a question. Did you actually sign a contract or does it just day that the deposit will be rolled over to the next litter?
If you did not sign a contact, you cannot be bound by the language of the contract as there is no evidence of a contact
being in place. The money was just a down payment for a puppy from the upcoming litter.
I signed a contract and that contract says - verbatim:

Conditions: All dogs are sold with a non-breeding agreement. Dogs are guaranty 3 years against disease
causing death and dysplasia. No refund will be made. A dog will be replace if you do have proof that your
dog is not in good health and proven by our veterinarian (transportation fees not included) Dog is return to
breeder if you do not want it anymore with no refunding.

If the coupling did not work, your deposit will be place on the next litter.
Deposit: $400.00 (non-refundable)
Balance on shipping: $600.00 (one month before delivery, transportation fees extra)
Extra for first choice (2 per litter): $200.00

The way the breeder has explained to me this means your deposit goes towards the next litter that actually happens. Yes, tough spot to be in, but one I put myself in. Just hope this doesn't happen to anyone else. I'm sure many have had good experiences with this guy, I have not.

The contract is unenforceable. Go get your money back.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sat Oct 08, 2011 8:41 pm

There may be a contract, but is there a receipt for the money?

TVW · Post by **TVW** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:12 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:There may be a contract, but is there a receipt for the money?

Just a copy of the return check written out to the breeder showing it's been cashed. Thanks again all. Will keep you posted on what happens.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 7:21 pm

TVW wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:There may be a contract, but is there a receipt for the money?
Just a copy of the return check written out to the breeder showing it's been cashed. Thanks again all. Will keep you posted on what happens.

Then you have no grounds for recovery. That could have been a birthday gift check for all you can prove. I really hope you get a favorable resolution, though. I absolutely hate to hear of bad breeder experiences. Throws a pall on everyone.

displaced_texan · Post by **displaced_texan** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:18 pm

Cajun Casey wrote: I absolutely hate to hear of bad breeder experiences. Throws a pall on everyone.

That's the worst part of it...

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 8:22 pm

Cajun Casey wrote: Then you have no grounds for recovery. That could have been a birthday gift check for all you can prove. I really hope you get a favorable resolution, though. I absolutely hate to hear of bad breeder experiences. Throws a pall on everyone.

I think you forgot the smiley face, you are joking right?

displaced_texan · Post by **displaced_texan** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 9:41 pm

nikegundog wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote: Then you have no grounds for recovery. That could have been a birthday gift check for all you can prove. I really hope you get a favorable resolution, though. I absolutely hate to hear of bad breeder experiences. Throws a pall on everyone.
I think you forgot the smiley face, you are joking right?

Without proof otherwise anything can be claimed.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:01 pm

displaced_texan wrote:
nikegundog wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote: Then you have no grounds for recovery. That could have been a birthday gift check for all you can prove. I really hope you get a favorable resolution, though. I absolutely hate to hear of bad breeder experiences. Throws a pall on everyone.
I think you forgot the smiley face, you are joking right?
Without proof otherwise anything can be claimed.

Been in to many court rooms to believe any judge would ever believe that a guy would send a $400 gift to someone he doesn't know, and add on to that the breeder excepts $400 deposits. Judge's listen to B.S., all day, do you honestly believe that you could convince a judge that it was a gift and not a deposit? Don't know how they do things in Canada, but around here it not customary to send unknown persons a $400 gift.

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:49 am

Oh boy, whata can of worms.

Good idea Pual. If he has a wife like mine, no puppy coming into our house will be sold.

Can't wait for our first litter.......

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:08 am

Buckeye_V wrote:Oh boy, whata can of worms.

Good idea Pual. If he has a wife like mine, no puppy coming into our house will be sold.

That's a good point, too.

Maybe just tell him you're gonna sell the pup right away if he makes you wait. See what kind of reaction that gets.

Just thinking of other options since it's pretty clear he's either screwed out of his $400 or is going to have to wait.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:15 pm

The breed club will pressure him into giving the money back if he will not have a litter within the next 6 months or so.
There are regulations to being a member of a breed club, he may risk getting thrown out if he continues to give a bad name to the breed and club.
One other thing, don't let him broker another breeder's puppy on you to fulfill the contract.
I would sure like to know who this breeder is.

Jagerherzen · Post by **Jagerherzen** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:18 pm

You and a few others on this thread assume that the breeder in question belongs to a breed club, regional club or parent breed club. He does not. I received a PM so I know who he is. This breeder is what some may refer to as "independent" like many breeders out there. For the most part, a reputable gundog owner does not sell hunting dogs as pets. There may be a few exceptions and I can think of one, but it does not apply to selling litters of puppies. Now if someone has a genuine interest in taking up hunting, that is another matter, but they are few and far between. I understand your dilemma and you have received good advice here for the most part. Good luck.

Cora's Shadow · Post by **Cora's Shadow** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:32 pm

I would like to reiterate again that the breeder in question is NOT a member of any breed club. Any references on his website to owning or selling "langhaars" is a gimic as neither he nor his dogs are in any way affiliated with Deutsch Langhaar Gruppe Nordamerika.

I think everyone has contributed some great advice for the OP, but there is one other solution that might be simplest. The breeder in question also raises another breed. And his website makes it look like he produces more of those dogs each year (it says "some" litters are due soon). Would the contract allow you to get one of his other puppies from him instead? If you aren't planning to hunt with the dog anyway, the breed switch shouldn't be a big deal. In the house, both breeds are similar in temperament and appearance (except for the size).

TVW · Post by **TVW** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:50 am

Once again, thank you everyone for the excellent advice and thoughts regarding this situation. I never thought my question would have such overwhelming response. Had I realized this forum was around BEFORE I signed that contract; I would not be in this predicament. I spoke with the breeder yesterday and as I expected, he will not budge, has no problem with his behaviour and given that he knows how very angry I am he is still quite happy to force me to wait until or forfeit. He even agreed that I had signed a crap contract. He was probably being sarcastic, but said, well, you should have thought of that before you signed. (he’s right, which is all the more frustrating coming from him) The fact that he knows how absolutely livid I am with him, he will still happily allow me to take one of his pups home without blinking. That in itself is a bit weird.

Funny that you should mention the other breed – I had never even considered the other breed and the breeder said to me – well if you wanted a dog faster, you should have taken the other breed, you had a choice. I thought, well, firstly, I wasn’t looking to buy a puppy of other breed (not that there is anything wrong with it), we never talked about the other breed or it being an option, only now did he bring it up in a tone that suggested it would be natural to want to do that. Now - a moot point.

Despite the turmoil over the last few months with this breeder, and while gathering information from this and a few other forums, I’ve been going down another road and we’ve been fortunate enough to now bring a rescue dog into our home – finally, a family friend in the home again. She’s shown impeccable manners in the house and loves her runs out in the bush/fields, super sweet and is just what we were looking for in a family dog. At 2 yrs she’s not exactly the puppy we had set our mind to, but that’s okay, she’s puppy enough and has a great forever home and that feels good too.

heidi_2.jpg

Heidi_1.jpg

Where do we go from here? Well, we still have a deposit on a puppy that will come at some point. Next year? Year after? Whether we take the pup at that time, or forfeit our deposit or get completely scammed out of our money is yet to be determined. I still have little faith that there will be a puppy anytime soon. I will not be going to small claims court since we’re in different provinces and I really don’t have the wherewithal to research the ins and outs. Life is too busy. Buyer beware.

If those who mentioned selling the puppy think that’s really a viable option, I’d be interested in speaking with them for interest’s sake.

I also told this breeder was that if I went to a restaurant, a vacation, bought a car etc... and had this level of service, I’d be voicing my complaints loud and clear through internet/social media etc... You can go anywhere online and see reviews on products, restaurants, vacation spots both good and bad. I have contacted the breed clubs (which I know he doesn’t answer to) just to provide his name. There are places on the internet and social media, even Google Maps where I can leave a carefully worded review/comment next to the breeder advertised.

This forum has shown me that there are so many great breeders out there, that I will not hesitate to look for the right breeder whenever the opportunity presents itself again. I’m well armed now and this guy has not scared me off. Thanks all.

Karen · Post by **Karen** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:07 am

Talk about turning lemons into lemonaid! Congratulations on your new addition! She's GORGEOUS!!!!

Redfishkilla · Post by **Redfishkilla** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:08 am

Looks like a Boykin and Lab mix, cool lookin' dog.