Breeder Question

TVW · Post by **TVW** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:21 am

I have a question about deposit refunds and if anyone has ever been stuck in this position. At the end of the day, it's a case of buyer beware, but your thoughts are appreciated. It's the only time I've dealt with a breeder so I'm trying to collect as much info as possible to determine if I should be seeking my deposit back or if I'm off base.

Back in Feb 2011 we decided to look into getting another family dog after having to put our old GSP down. We wanted to stick within a hunting dog breed- we are not hunters, but really appreciate the qualities of these dogs and we are a very outdoorsy family.

We dealt with a breeder of a more uncommon dog breed (hence fewer breeders) and put in a $400 deposit for their advertised early summer 2011 litter. This litter never happened as neither female got pregnant. They said they tried again in July, but didn't work. Just this Sept, he said we have to wait for another 6 months which puts us into spring 2012, for their next spring heat - if it all works out.

I realize that it's not unusual to wait over a year for a litter and many potential puppy owners put their reservations in well in advance to hold for future litters. This was not our case, as they were advertising an upcoming breeding and we were told we would have pick of that litter and we were not on a waiting list of any kind.

We realized that we just wanted a family dog, and didn't want to wait for almost 2years to bring a puppy home. Two females and no heats in 2011. We asked, since there were no puppies in the near future, if we could have our deposit back. They said no refunds and if the coupling doesn't work, the deposit gets moved to the next litter. I then asked what if they don't have a heat in the spring? Are we stuck having to wait 2,3 or more years or do we have to forfeit our deposit if we go somewhere else? I could appreciate the no refund policy if the puppies were on their way, and we said we've changed our minds.

At what point should the breeder assume responsibility and return the deposit,if ever? Is it common for dogs to miss their heats for a full year - two dogs for that matter - or somehow not get pregnant?

volraider · Post by **volraider** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:46 am

If a breeding does not take place I will refund their deposits or put it on the next breeding, it's your choice. You should get your deposit back.

Brian

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:47 am

Honestly, I don't have a ton of experience with breeders but it seems weird to me that they are even excepting deposits without a successful pregnancy. I would assume most breeders announce a breeding, see if there is interest, then breed, and finally announce the litter and take deposits. I think this is a fishy situation, but again, I have never done the whole deposit thing.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:52 am

IMHO, you put a deposit down on a specific breeding at a specific time. The breeder did not deliver. You are entitled to your deposit back.

If you go into a car dealership and put a deposit down on a 2011 model, but their last one falls off the train and gets totaled - the dealership doesn't keep your deposit and tell you that you have to wait until the 2012's come out.

I don't know if there are any other details that we don't know about might change the situation, but from what you've shared, it doesn't sound right and I'd say you're totally justified in asking for your deposit back.

Karen · Post by **Karen** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:01 am

Whether to wait for another litter or not should be your decision. You should get your deposit back.

TVW · Post by **TVW** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:06 am

phermes1 wrote:I don't know if there are any other details that we don't know about might change the situation, but from what you've shared, it doesn't sound right and I'd say you're totally justified in asking for your deposit back.

I know it's just one side of the story - but basically my entire experience is on the page. Nothing left out. I had no problems with this breeder and he was very friendly, up until I started asking questions. They do have it in black and white in their contract "no refunds. If the coupling doesn't work, the deposit gets put to the next litter".

Given both females missed their heats in 2011 who knows when that will be - that's my dilemma. In hindsight, I should have asked what if the two females don't get pregnant. But I never imagined there would be a problem.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:08 am

I agree it should be your choice if you want a refund or wait on another litter.Don't sound like they are having much luck getting a female bred anyway.That could go on forever.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:17 am

I agree that you put a deposit on a specific planned breeding, the lack of amore' is not your fault. You should have the option of getting your deposit back. Did you per chance get any paperwork such as a dated receipt? If so, I would start communicating politely in writing. The first being a request, the second a demand and the third a demand with a summary of how small claims court works. If you have anything in writing it will help to frame these communications. I hope it works out.

MO_GSP · Post by **MO_GSP** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:19 am

I agree with everyone above and if I were in your situation that would probably scare me off to another breeder most definitely.

proudag08 · Post by **proudag08** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:49 am

Agreed. This guy shouldnt have even been accepting deposits on a breeding until it was confirmed. With my pup's Litter (WHO COMES HOME IN 42 DAYS!!!!!!) I offered to send my deposit in before the breeding was confirmed and they told me not to. After the dame was confirmed pregnant they told me to go ahead and put my deposit in.

This guy seems like a crook. :roll:

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:50 am

This is one reason I hate to take deposits before I have pups on the ground.I know it has become common practice because of buyers backing out but they do anyway alot of the time.
They either need to come up with a pup or your money & I think your money would be the right thing to do.

snips · Post by **snips** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:00 am

I definetly refund deposit if people do not want to wait...400. seems like ALOT to me....I take deposits anytime on a breeding, and will refund it anytime up until the breeding takes place....It is non refundable after that unless I do not have a pup for them or breeding does not take...

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:24 am

This is not a buyer changed their mind case. Breeder cannot produce the product. They need to give your money back no matter what the contract says. Its just the right thing to do.

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:32 am

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:This is one reason I hate to take deposits before I have pups on the ground.I know it has become common practice because of buyers backing out but they do anyway alot of the time.
They either need to come up with a pup or your money & I think your money would be the right thing to do.

Although those buyers that do end up backing out often make guys like me very happy discount puppy owners!

But yeah, this guy should get his head out of the clouds and learn some basic business ethics...

Tim

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:45 am

Huh! I've not raised that many litter's but I also never asked for a deposit. Pup's are on the ground, come look them over or I can pick one for you. I've never been a big breeder. Three of four litter's of Springer's many years ago and five maybe six litter's of Shorthairs years ago.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:12 am

Breeder can not produce.
I'm thinking any reasonable judge would see it your way.
Ask judge for breeder to prove past litters records (for proof he has produced litters and when his last litter was) and a letter from his vet stating that the breeding females are healthy enough to concieve.
Don't wait too long to go to small claims court.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:19 am

TVW wrote: I know it's just one side of the story - but basically my entire experience is on the page. Nothing left out. I had no problems with this breeder and he was very friendly, up until I started asking questions. They do have it in black and white in their contract "no refunds. If the coupling doesn't work, the deposit gets put to the next litter".

Given both females missed their heats in 2011 who knows when that will be - that's my dilemma. In hindsight, I should have asked what if the two females don't get pregnant. But I never imagined there would be a problem.

OK, I don't mean to doubt, I'm just trying not to jump to conclusions.

The clause in their contract does make the situation more difficult. OK, the coupling didn't work, so the deposit got put to the next litter, which you were fine with. But then that coupling didn't work either. You could argue that the contract doesn't state "And if THAT coupling doesn't work, it rolls to the next, and the next, etc." Bottom line, common sense must prevail at some point. They can't keep your deposit indefinitely without producing a product. I'm not sure if a small claims suit is worth it, but a formal letter addressed to them, outlining your issue, requesting a refund, threatening legal action, and cc'd to a lawyer friend might be a good idea.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:27 am

If a breeding does not take place I will refund their deposits or put it on the next breeding, it's your choice. You should get your deposit back.

+1...a deposit is for a specific breeding at a certain time unless otherwise agreed....I would never think its the breeder's to keep until he/she can get you a pup.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:35 am

btw, we don't take deposits, either. If they want a pup, they'll stick around, deposit or no deposit. If another litter catches their eye, so be it, finding good homes hasn't been a problem. If their circumstances change to where getting a pup at that time isn't a good idea, then I don't want to force them into it.

It just blows my mind that they think making you wait a year+ is perfectly OK.

TVW · Post by **TVW** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:01 pm

Thank you so much everyone for the prompt and educational responses. We researched the breed so carefully, but we were limited in the breeder here in Canada, and the fellow seemed so sincere. I didn't think I would get caught up in something like this - and my first time too! Next time, I won't hesitate to ask more questions. Thanks again. Excellent site.

deseeker · Post by **deseeker** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:13 pm

If they can't produce a pup out of 2 females in the year you wanted your pup, you should get your deposit back

On my litters I keep a list of buyers-- I don't ask for a deposit until the pups are born. And $400 sounds like an excessive deposit to ask---just wondering what the price of the pup is if the deposit is $400

Good luck getting it back :roll:

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:45 pm

FWIW. I was ina similar situation, but I didn't have a deposit. I wanted the pup. I was OK with waiting a year or longer in our case. I wanted that breeding. I am SOOOOOOOOOOOOO glad I got it too.

If you signed the contract where it says no refunds, then I am not sure small claims court is going to be able to help. It is no different than getting one of those hotel rooms wher eyou have to prepay regardless if you stay there or not. The written rules are the written rules in a civil contract.

Good luck with that.

I would not take a deposit until the bitch is confirmed pregnant. Most people who want the pups are going to stick around. If they boogie, I don't want them to have one of my pups anyways.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:51 pm

There is no luck needed to get your money...you have to have access to goods or services to lose a deposit in either a reasonable or specified period of time...neither of which is satisfied here. Don't be shy about letting them know.

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:56 pm

If the breeder brings contract to court where it says no refunds are given with your signature on it -- good luck with that.

You are going to pay more getting your money back than it may be worth.

Like I said, I have a strong court background. Good luck with that.

Justin

Post by **Sharon** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:57 pm

What was the understanding you had with the breeder? Even if it wasn't written down did you have an agreement when putting down your deposit.?

(I'm from Ontario too and am pretty sure I know who you are talking about.)

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:07 pm

The way I see it, the breeder has failed to comply with the language in their own contract. If it states that any deposit will be applied to the next planned litter...they did that... and that litter also failed to materialize. There was nothting in the contract(I assume) that stated the deposit would be credited to the THIRD, FOURTH or whatever litter. If it said next litter...they are done and you can demand your money back. Contracts are subject to what a court wold consider" "reasonable". Waiting two years for a family pet will probably not be considered reasonable. I would tell them that ui wanted my money back.

If they continued to hold your deposit, perhaps you could then make inquiries to the breed club and to the registering organization regarding this breeder's business practices. File a complaint against them with the breed club. You could also find out where they advertise and make inquiries there as well as to the appropriateness of the advertiser continuing to accept their business.

There is more than one way to skin a cat.

RayG

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:17 pm

You could put it on Facebook.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:30 pm

I don't think the amount of money involved here is worth a small claims case, but a letter cc'd to a lawyer might get their attention and get you your refund. Figure they don't want to go to court, either.

I think you're in the right here and stand a very good chance of getting your money back if you went to court, but as Justin says, the effort might not be worth it.

There's always a way, though; I've gotten myself out of VERY clear clauses in past contracts through research. There are reasonable expectations in any contract, and any court will know that. Here is is, 9 months later and you have not only NOT received the product, but you haven't even been given a remotely solid ETA on when you will be receiving the product. That's not reasonable by any measure.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:31 pm

Just a reminder that we don't name names in situations like this. It's been absolutely great so far. Don't want this to go in a bad direction.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:30 pm

I will only take 50 dollar non refundables for getting on a waiting list..Not till pups are on the ground will I ask for a solid deposit

But in this case..Breeder has dogs they are missing cycles on or what ever the story is You should get most if not all your money back after this long

Redfishkilla · Post by **Redfishkilla** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:47 pm

Get a lawyer to write the letter.

proudag08 · Post by **proudag08** » Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:22 pm

+1 on the letter written by the lawyer Cced to you, the lawyer and any judge friends you might know

QuailHollow · Post by **QuailHollow** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:56 am

TVW wrote:At what point should the breeder assume responsibility and return the deposit,if ever? Is it common for dogs to miss their heats for a full year - two dogs for that matter - or somehow not get pregnant?

I have a litter on the ground now. I always return deposits. As a matter of fact, I rarely take them. I write the names down in a text document - first come, first serve. Some folks have already gotten a dog when I call them. That's cool. No worries!

Also, I would NEVER take someone's money without having healthy puppies available for the picking. My pups are a week old. I don't usually announce until they are up and weaned.

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:05 am

No offense, but a ltter from a lawyer would not make me sweat at all. Sorry.

What's an attorney gonna do without a court case?

Justin

Redfishkilla · Post by **Redfishkilla** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:32 am

"What's an attorney gonna do without a court case?"

File one like he would threaten to do in the letter.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:33 am

Considering the breed, you might want to check with the breed club and see if the prospective dam(s) have been certified to breed.

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:00 am

The guy can file the court case and save a ton of money, so what is an attorney going to do?

You guys are missing the point.

Justin

Redfishkilla · Post by **Redfishkilla** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:11 am

As much as I, in general, strongly dislike attorneys, good ones know the law better than you do. They know what claims to make and how to form arguments. Without lots of research it would be foolish to think you know the law as well as a good attorney. Most people haven't even seem a well written lawsuit, much less know how to write one. Trying to save a few bucks doing it yourself can cost you a lot of money in the end. With this small of an issue would it be worth it? I don't know. But if you're dealing with big $$$, you get the best attorney money can buy.

Karen · Post by **Karen** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:22 am

In my neck of the woods, a mediocre attorney will run you $250/hour. Let the guy spend an hour and a half getting the facts, reviewing the contract and dictating a letter, and now you have $800 into a puppy that may never happen.

I think I'd report the guy to the regional club and parent club, in writing, so that he doesn't receive anymore referrals, and find another breeder to buy a dog from.

It would KILL me to walk away from that $400, but do you really want a pup from him anymore? After this?

TVW · Post by **TVW** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:38 am

I won't be going the Court route, I agree it would eat up my money.

But I would be interested in knowing any associations (apart from specific breed , which I will certainly contact) ie: hunting, gundog etc.. where there may be an opportunity to lodge a complaint?

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:44 am

What is the breed and the price of the pups?

I also agree with buckeye v. The only thing that we know for sure is that the OP signed a contract to give away $400 (non-refundable). I see it as a costly mistake and an unfortunate lesson learned. I think that it comes down to "how far are you willing to go to get back $400". If you pay a lawyer $200 to write a letter that the guy is just going to throw in the trash or you take him to court and it is still uncertain if you will win without knowing the exact wording in the contract.

If it is a scam it's a pretty good one. What will most people do to get back $400 after agreeing to sign a non refundable contract.

One more time, what is the breed and what is the total price?

Thanks and Good Luck

TVW · Post by **TVW** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:53 am

[quote="Ron R"]What is the breed and the price of the pups?

Hi Folks, it may seem silly to not mention the breed, but in my original post, I mentioned it was a lesser known breed with limited breeders in my general area and I felt by saying the breed it might lead to supposition as to who it was or then wrongly assume it was another breeder further away. As someone above noted, names/places in these circumstances shouldn't be disclosed so I'm doing my best - not to be secretive, just "respectful?" But the price of the puppy is $1000. Don't want to cause any undue controversy - just a bit of advice seeking and you've all been fantastic. Thanks.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:02 am

I am not seeing where they signed a non-refundable contract?

It says they gave a deposit, had a couple of swings and misses...asked for their money back and then were told...no refunds, you must wait until we have puppies.
This is made way too complicated, I believe if the op cares to get aggressive enough they will get their dough. It certainly isn't infallible, but when you are right (assuming they are with the information provided) you can get the proper accounting. If it was me the breeder would have to decide just how much noise and damage to their reputation and or pocket book they were willing to endure.
I suspect they don't have the op's $400 and need some motivation to change their priorities and "find" the money

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:10 am

I believe it's a German longhaired pointer. That breed is highly controlled by its parent club which makes me wonder about the eligibility of the seller's breeding stock or a refusal by the parent club to register dogs sold as pets. Some of the rare breed clubs are a bit Draconian.

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:17 am

TVW wrote:They do have it in black and white in their contract "no refunds. If the coupling doesn't work, the deposit gets put to the next litter".

I assumed that it was agreed upon and signed. Hopefully TVW can clear this up so we can better understand.

As far as the deposit getting put on the next litter is pretty vague. One can see it as the next attempt and another can see it as the next time there are pups on the ground.

It is just a bad situation and very unethical.

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:17 am

Let me be clear, I never said this guy didn't bet the raw deal.

I am just saying that the reality of seeing your $400 back is not very good. It is unfortunate that some people have to put such rigid language in their puppy buying contract. Next time, buyer beware.

Good luck man!

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:21 am

thanks Ron,

I missed that post entirely
I am taking it up with the staff now

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:23 am

Chukar12 wrote:I am not seeing where they signed a non-refundable contract?

It says they gave a deposit, had a couple of swings and misses...asked for their money back and then were told...no refunds, you must wait until we have puppies.
This is made way too complicated, I believe if the op cares to get aggressive enough they will get their dough. It certainly isn't infallible, but when you are right (assuming they are with the information provided) you can get the proper accounting. If it was me the breeder would have to decide just how much noise and damage to their reputation and or pocket book they were willing to endure.
I suspect they don't have the op's $400 and need some motivation to change their priorities and "find" the money

This is a good point, but I wouldn't get too over confident thinking you would have a case in civil court. The contract stated the deposit is rolled over to the next breeding with zero time constraints. By definition the next breeding has not occurred, since a breeding is, by definition, the production of offspring. No offspring have been produced so you are still binded to the contract. Judge Judy might side with you, but I'm not confident a real judge would. I think following Chuckar12 and others advise and find other means to put pressure on the breeders business rather than look to the legal system. JMO. Sorry you're in this pickle! Hope the breeder comes to his/her senses soon!

Tim

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:23 am

Chukar12 wrote:thanks Ron,

I missed that post entirely
I am taking it up with the staff now

Don't be too hard on them

.

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:26 am

DogNewbie wrote:Judge Judy might side with you, but I'm not confident a real judge would.

I'm not sure why but I found that to be pretty funny.