line breeding or in-breeding..your thoughts?

quailrunner · Post by **quailrunner** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:23 am

Would you buy a dog that came from a mother-son breeding? How about litter-mates? Or what about 1/2 siblings (same mother-different father)?
If the line of dogs in question were rated in the top 20% for Hips in their breed for 3-4 generations back and the line was very clean on health issues and previous line breeding produced both field and bench champions, would this modify your point of view? Or is the taboo of line or in-breeding so ingrained in you that you wouldn't consider it?

Greek · Post by **Greek** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 5:58 am

In my expereinces with GSD and Malinois. I have found that line breeding 2-2 is to too close. 3-3 or 3-4 is much better. When using a dog that is already very closely line bred, then you should go wide next time. If you keep staying close you are compounding all aspects of the dog you are line breeding to. The good and the bad. The more you compound these factors the more predominant both the good and the bad gets. Meaning the good tends to get very good, the bad tends to get very bad. That goes for all traits the dog has - temperament, working ability, health. You can also get some weird recessive combinations that bring forth hidden problems that otherwise would not have appeared. For a seasoned breeder who wants to build a line on a certain dog, such a litter would be a possible control litter to see what is in the lines. For a novice breeder, stay away from that. If you want pups that will be good field dogs/hunters and family dogs, can do the work, go with an outcross breeding that is compatible. Breeding is trying and learning from every litter. No breeder can predict the outcome, regardless of how many litters they already have under their belt. Many newbies get lucky, many more do not. So, if you breed two related dogs in a line breeding and each dog carries for an undesirable trait, instead of only a %25 chance of passing it on, it increases exponentionally.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:12 am

quailrunner,
you failed to mention temperment and conformation.

With close breedings the breeder needs to be honest,reputable, have a buy back contract and I like to hear what the goals are.
Are they going to keep a pup?

Breeding is all about the quality of the dogs involved.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:32 am

I think Brackett's Formula works great. It allows for a wide choice within the chosen bloodline with an outcross in each generation if so desired. By this method, the mother's grandfather is the father's father.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:14 am

Linebreeding and inbreeding are two variations of the same theme, IMO. The strategy in both cases, is to intensify certain desirable genetics that are present in both dogs and in that line. The danger in both cases, is intensification of undesirable, recessive genetics that can result in seriously defective offspring that will have to be destroyed.

Mother/son or father/daughter breeding can fix both desirable and undesirable genetics very firmly in the litter. Some of the very best lines of performance dogs have been developed from one or more successive inbreedings. Consistent linebreeding can also be very successful in fixing traits, but it will take more breedings, over time to accomplish.

If you plan to buy a dog from such a breeding...you need to understand both the risks as well as the potential rewards.

RayG

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:25 am

I like the idea of consistency that a closer breeding can produce, but it takes excellent individuals to produce good dogs regardless of "method" of breeding.

quailrunner · Post by **quailrunner** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:30 am

quailrunner,you failed to mention temperment and conformation.

The line of dogs i have been researching are only considered champions if they have proven themselves in the field as well as on the bench. So, I would think this answers the conformation/temperament question.

With close breedings the breeder needs to be honest,reputable, have a buy back contract and I like to hear what the goals are.
Are they going to keep a pup?

The foreign breeder that I believe started the line has kept some pups and taken them to championship status as well as what they call "recommended sire" for the males. The mother-son breeding I was referring to, produced the breeders main sire as far as I can tell. The 1/2 siblings breeding produced a very well known champion here in the states, who later went on to produce an international champion.

From what I have found, other breeders from other kennels are seeking this "blood" to bring into theirs. But it seems that line breeding is not a very common occurrence for the breed.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:41 am

quailrunner,you failed to mention temperment and conformation.

The line of dogs i have been researching are only considered champions if they have proven themselves in the field as well as on the bench. So, I would think this answers the conformation/temperament question.

Oh no it doesn't.Big mistake for thinking that it does.

But it seems that line breeding is not a very common occurrence for the breed.

Could be because: there is a high risk potential, no one is willing to be open and honest about what's in the breed, breeders are not confident,possible not knowledgable enough to take risks.

Talk to as many people as you can,if you don't hear anything "bad" it would raise flags,every breed has "bad"

Mr. Crappie · Post by **Mr. Crappie** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 4:20 pm

Line breeding has been around for a long time and produced some very good dogs. Ask Ferrel Miller what he thinks about it. He was very successful. Millers bred dogs have been around, and for the most part (as with any bloodline) are exceptional dogs. From the words of a longtime producer of field trial dogs and a retired vet. "Breed the best to the best, and close is good."

QuailHollow · Post by **QuailHollow** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:20 pm

Unless you are attempting to create a sub-breed, I see no reason to mate mother to son or father to daughter unless you are trying to expose a suspected defect in one of the parent animals.

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Fri Oct 07, 2011 6:24 pm

quailrunner wrote:
From what I have found, other breeders from other kennels are seeking this "blood" to bring into theirs. But it seems that line breeding is not a very common occurrence for the breed.

Not sure what "blood" your referring to.....elaborate please.......

And it depends on your explanation of very common....Linebreeding within the breed happens alot IMO......so again maybe elaborate on this some and we might be able to answer better......as far as Line vs In breeding....may do a search on here for that it has been discussed many times at great length....
Me personally.....there one in the same just a variance of degree really

JMO

Troy08er · Post by **Troy08er** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 8:03 pm

Good read.

http://www.westwindgsps.com/linebreeding.htm

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:31 pm

http://books.google.com/ebooks/reader?i ... g=GBS.PA21

this should take you to a pedigree of Mr Ed Laverack breed in a book dated back to 1872

northern cajun · Post by **northern cajun** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:05 pm

Well for me inbreeding is an indispensable tool.

I have bitch that her dad is her grand dad Father/daughter breeding NA breeders award for litter

Have another that is Uncle/niece she will be at Invitational next year.

I think the best are like sire of the sire is the grandsire of dam or my favorite is mother line breeding pups out of same dam different sires breed back to each other.

I will say yes you can get some weird stuff but however the dogs that are exceptional throw dogs that are very true to type and the litters are very consistent in form and type.

The thing is you have to be brutally honest in your breeding program cull dogs that dont have it or where recessives show up (spay neuter..) keep the cream and move on.

How do you think breeds are formed? Mother son, father daughter, uncle niece......................

Yes outcrosses are needed.

Then again what do I know I am just a cajun

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Sun Oct 09, 2011 11:25 pm

I've not bred any litters yet, but am a genetics buff and have studied the subject and "interogated" geneticists. In-breeding is basically intensified line breeding. In line breeding you'll see a common "theme" to a pedigree with one dog showing up several times. In in-breeding, you'll find a dog, like you said, bred back to a parent or full sibling.

Each gene is made up of alleles. Alleles are basically genetic code that say what that gene is going to do represent and each gene has two alleles (alleles are represented by letter to make them easier for us to understand). For example, and this is an oversimplification, if a gene that is involved in a dog's bite then, say, the "dominant" allele would be "B" and this would be a good bite, while the "recessive" allele is "b" for an underbite. Now, if a dog is bb, then he is undershot, but if he's BB or Bb, then he's got a good bite, because the dominant good bite allele "B" overrides the influence of the recessive bad bite allele "b". Now, if two dogs, one with BB and another with bb breed, then you'll wind up with with every pup havin a nice bite because:

....B B
b Bb Bb
b Bb Bb

Now, every one of these pups has the bite alleles Bb (this is called a genotype). When two of them are full grown, if you breed them, you'll get roughtly three pups with solid bites for every one that is undershot.

...B b
B BB bB
b Bb bb

Three of these four pups have a dominant gene "B", so they will automatically have a nice bite. This is why some dogs will "sometimes" throw jacked up bites.

My point in all this is that the tighter the breeding, the more intensified the traits will be. It's like you hold a magnafying glass over the parents' genes. This is why inbreeding has gottena bad rap. If Farmer John down the road breeds his Pointer to Farmer Ray's dog down the way, and they're litter mates and both mediocre dogs, then they probably have some really nicer traits and some bad traits. Well, this litter will be inbred and half the litter could come out sporting really fine traits while the other half come out as junk. Likewise, ifyou have a dog that is cow hocked and he's bred to cow hocked sister, then the pups will probably come out severaly cow hocked. The tighter the breeding, the more intensified the traits become. On the other hand, if you have a sire that throw phenomenal pups and you have a daughter that is outstanding with the exception of a few traits her papa has, but didn't pass on to her, you could take her back to him. If you did this you would probably have pups that retained the undesireable trait you were trying to breed out, but some pups would probably end up drawing the good trait from the daddy/grandpa and would not only be more likely not to loose some of their mama's good traits (because, remember, she got them from her sire, who she is being bred to and if two dogs carry the same genotype, you're less likely to catch varioation because, well, the genese are the same) because it's the same traits they're getting from the sire/grandsire, but the traits could very well intensify.

So, to make a short story long, I would jump at the chance to buy an inbred or linebred pup from a line that was proven in throwing solid dogs. However, if there were any major defects commonly associated with the line I'd be weary.

snips · Post by **snips** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:55 am

gpblitz wrote:
quailrunner wrote:Would you buy a dog that came from a mother-son breeding
Bred a litter once mother to son. I would never breed like this again.

quailrunner wrote:How about litter-mates?
No

quailrunner wrote:Or what about 1/2 siblings (same mother-different father)?
Yes, If Sire side was a total outcross

+1

Georgia Boy · Post by **Georgia Boy** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:31 pm

Grandson to Grandmother, or half siblings is about as close as I will go anymore but have backbred 3 times once with out any significant problems like some might think. I guess the dogs were pretty clean.

Wenaha · Post by **Wenaha** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:35 pm

Line breeding implies close breeding for several generations to fix characteristics in the line of dogs. Inbreeding is simply breeding to very closely related dogs. Big difference, I think.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:56 pm

Wenaha wrote:Line breeding implies close breeding for several generations to fix characteristics in the line of dogs. Inbreeding is simply breeding to very closely related dogs. Big difference, I think.

Can they not be one in same? Separated by degrees?

Troy08er · Post by **Troy08er** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:59 pm

Great read. Go to the bottom it has 13 parts.

http://www.dogstuff.info/part1_peas_and_pups.html

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:23 pm

Wenaha wrote:Line breeding implies close breeding for several generations to fix characteristics in the line of dogs. Inbreeding is simply breeding to very closely related dogs. Big difference, I think.

I disagree completely....and most geneticists I know would also disagree..
However I know of many who share you view not saying its not correct but linebreeding is inbreeding just a degree of variance. I even know folks who would say uncle to niece or aunt to nephew is not inbreeding but linebreeding, where does the degree of seperation start to quantify linebreeding vs inbreeding?

JMO

northern cajun · Post by **northern cajun** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:53 am

lvrgsp wrote:
Wenaha wrote:Line breeding implies close breeding for several generations to fix characteristics in the line of dogs. Inbreeding is simply breeding to very closely related dogs. Big difference, I think.
I disagree completely....and most geneticists I know would also disagree..
However I know of many who share you view not saying its not correct but linebreeding is inbreeding just a degree of variance. I even know folks who would say uncle to niece or aunt to nephew is not inbreeding but linebreeding, where does the degree of seperation start to quantify linebreeding vs inbreeding?

JMO

Well lots of time this went around in grade school.

0-5% COI coefficent of Inbreeding = outcross
5-12.5 COI = linebreeding
12.5% COI or greater = inbreeding

The COI's below give you a feel for how closely a dog is bred.

25.00% - parent/offspring or full brother/sister cross
12.50% - half brother/sister, grandparent/grandpup, or double first cousins crosses
9.75% - great uncle or aunt/great niece or nephew cross
6.25% - first cousins

Ahumphers91a · Post by **Ahumphers91a** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:15 pm

The way I have been told to "linebreed" is that the sire of the sire, is the grand-sire of the dam. Stick with that and you should be fine. Always with linebreeding remember to get an outcross in there somewhere.

pup NEXT GEN
Get Your Free Pedigree Today!

This would be a linebreed to FC AFC Sundance's Hearts Are Wild

Wenaha · Post by **Wenaha** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:19 pm

Wenaha wrote:Line breeding implies close breeding for several generations to fix characteristics in the line of dogs. Inbreeding is simply breeding to very closely related dogs. Big difference, I think.

Let me clarify, please.

In-breeding can simply be the breeding of two closely related dogs. It is a TOOL in line breeding, but line breeding implies developing a LINE of dogs, not just producing one litter. It also implies a PLAN and BREEDING GOAL with the intent to fix specific characteristics to be achieved by several means over time. Line breeding also usually employs an out cross to a unrelated, but similar, line-bred dog to avoid in0breeding depression.

SO, in short, line breeding is a PROCESS, in-breeding is an event.

Ahumphers91a · Post by **Ahumphers91a** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:07 pm

Wenaha wrote:
Wenaha wrote:Line breeding implies close breeding for several generations to fix characteristics in the line of dogs. Inbreeding is simply breeding to very closely related dogs. Big difference, I think.
Let me clarify, please.

In-breeding can simply be the breeding of two closely related dogs. It is a TOOL in line breeding, but line breeding implies developing a LINE of dogs, not just producing one litter. It also implies a PLAN and BREEDING GOAL with the intent to fix specific characteristics to be achieved by several means over time. Line breeding also usually employs an out cross to a unrelated, but similar, line-bred dog to avoid in0breeding depression.

SO, in short, line breeding is a PROCESS, in-breeding is an event.

You could say that. I also like to look at the traits of the others bred to say the same sire you are looking to get a line breed to. My male duece in the above link for instance. He is very much bred from Dixieland's rusty, Uodibar's Boss Man breedings. So I found a female that has similar lines through the Moesgaard dog's bred to dogs that produced Rawhides Clown and Heides mighty city slicker, then her dams side is much more similar through rusty and the uodibar's dogs again.

Wenaha · Post by **Wenaha** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:28 pm

northern cajun wrote:[
The COI's below give you a feel for how closely a dog is bred.

25.00% - parent/offspring or full brother/sister cross
12.50% - half brother/sister, grandparent/grandpup, or double first cousins crosses
9.75% - great uncle or aunt/great niece or nephew cross
6.25% - first cousins

This is true as far as it goes, but a line bred dog can have a fairly high COI that indicates the influence of one or two founding dogs of that line.

This is the pedigree of one of my setters that has a COI for over 16%...

Georgia Boy · Post by **Georgia Boy** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:54 am

We just did the breeding posted here, it is a line breeding (in my opinion) on the top preforming and producing dogs of the breed over the last 8-10 years.I cant wait for the pups to arrive and will be keeping at least one, maybe more.

Bente II Dachswiese

Yago Birkengrund

northern cajun · Post by **northern cajun** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:09 am

Wenaha wrote:
Wenaha wrote:Line breeding implies close breeding for several generations to fix characteristics in the line of dogs. Inbreeding is simply breeding to very closely related dogs. Big difference, I think.
Let me clarify, please.

In-breeding can simply be the breeding of two closely related dogs. It is a TOOL in line breeding, but line breeding implies developing a LINE of dogs, not just producing one litter. It also implies a PLAN and BREEDING GOAL with the intent to fix specific characteristics to be achieved by several means over time. Line breeding also usually employs an out cross to a unrelated, but similar, line-bred dog to avoid in0breeding depression.

SO, in short, line breeding is a PROCESS, in-breeding is an event.

OK I have to call BS here inbreeding is not an event if you think that some of the great breeders used it with out a plan you are sadly mistaken and the quickest way to "fix" specific traits/characteristics is inbreeding. Also, inbreeding in is strictest definition is the mating of related individuals so if its on the top and the bottom of the pedigree its inbreeding we can choose to call it "linebreeding" to make us feel better but its freaking inbreeding just the same. Breeders that inbreed also outcross when appropriate.

Wenaha · Post by **Wenaha** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:19 am

northern cajun wrote:
Wenaha wrote:
Wenaha wrote:Line breeding implies close breeding for several generations to fix characteristics in the line of dogs. Inbreeding is simply breeding to very closely related dogs. Big difference, I think.
Let me clarify, please.

In-breeding can simply be the breeding of two closely related dogs. It is a TOOL in line breeding, but line breeding implies developing a LINE of dogs, not just producing one litter. It also implies a PLAN and BREEDING GOAL with the intent to fix specific characteristics to be achieved by several means over time. Line breeding also usually employs an out cross to a unrelated, but similar, line-bred dog to avoid in0breeding depression.

SO, in short, line breeding is a PROCESS, in-breeding is an event.
OK I have to call BS here inbreeding is not an event if you think that some of the great breeders used it with out a plan you are sadly mistaken and the quickest way to "fix" specific traits/characteristics is inbreeding. Also, inbreeding in is strictest definition is the mating of related individuals so if its on the top and the bottom of the pedigree its inbreeding we can choose to call it "linebreeding" to make us feel better but its freaking inbreeding just the same. Breeders that inbreed also outcross when appropriate.

As you please.But if you read my post again, you might recognize that in-breeding is ONE TOOL in line breeding, but in-breeding alone does not create a LINE of dogs, just a litter of closely bred pups.

northern cajun · Post by **northern cajun** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:57 am

You are obviously right. :roll: :roll: Inbreeding can create breeds of dogs, how on earth could it be used to just create a line of dogs within a breed. Are you serious :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:11 pm

northern cajun wrote:You are obviously right. :roll: :roll: Inbreeding can create breeds of dogs, how on earth could it be used to just create a line of dogs within a breed. Are you serious :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

You lost me on this one.

Ezzy

northern cajun · Post by **northern cajun** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:51 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
northern cajun wrote:You are obviously right. :roll: :roll: Inbreeding can create breeds of dogs, how on earth could it be used to just create a line of dogs within a breed. Are you serious :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
You lost me on this one.

Ezzy

Ezzy it was in response to Wenaha's last post which was ........cart horse.

Wenaha · Post by **Wenaha** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:10 pm

Cajun

I am serious as a heart attack. If you believe what you just posted, then I am not going to write a book to explain it to you.

Read Wehle's book.

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:54 pm

wenaha.. viewtopic.php?f=69&t=28912&p=265185&hil ... ot#p265185
I read wheles book I also entered Snakefoots nine generation in my breeders software program...I still wonder why he bashed spunky creek boy saying he had to get rid of the pups and yet in the Ancestory report the dog he claimed to be in snakefoots pedigree hundreds of times Lexington Jake is no where close to his claims and spunky creek the dog he bashed so hard is in snakefoots pedigree 15 times
but then here is the top 17 dogs that have grand parent contribution or higher to Snakefoots pedigree

Animal Name.................. Appearances.............. % Contribution
...................................in pedigree..................................

ELHEW YELLOW RAIL................. 1 .......................50.0000

ELHEW STRIKE......................... 1....................... 50.0000

ELHEW RAINDROP ......................1....................... 25.0000

ELHEW BRASS ...........................1....................... 25.0000

ELHEW GIMLI ...........................1........................ 25.0000

HOOK'S BOUNTY HUNTER ...............1....................... 25.0000

ELHEW BOBOLINK ........................3 .......................21.8750

RED WATER REX ..........................7 .......................19.5313

ELHEW ITALY ..................... .......2 ........................18.7500

ELHEW HUCKATUCK ......................2 .........................18.7500

ELHEW HUCKLEBERRY.................... 13.........................17.3828

ELHEW JUNGLE............................ 31 .........................17.3828

ELHEW ELLIE MAE ...........................1 .........................12.5000

CAINE'S ROYAL CLOUD........................ 1....................... 12.5000

PALADIN'S ROYAL LEGACY ...................1......................... 12.5000

ELHEW ROUND ABOUT ........................1........................ 12.5000

GUARD RAIL ....................................1 ........................12.5000

What I would be really interested in is when he was breeding blue foxes for their pelts. There is where you can really tell what a program is doing

also when he was raising horses

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:29 pm

Ok Wenaha.....your Sunrise bred pup is 16% Coi..? That is what I read correct? Ok so is he linebred or inbred? And is the 16% a COI or COL?
COI meaning Coefficient of inbreeding?
COL meaning Coefficent of Linebreeding?
I have yet to see a COL rating here folks......were talking inbreeding it is what it is....like it or not, call it what you want thats ok, but in its simplest form for the sake of discussion linebreeding/inbreeding is one in the same PERIOD............
Call it what you want thats really not a concern....heck you can call it Wenaha breeding, honestly. Quit reading all the crap on the "bleep" web.....for all intensive purposes its one in the same. Thats why the percentages of inbreeding AKA COI was established to determine the percentage of inbreeding, we the humans decide if we want to call it linebreeding or not, you know why?
Because inbreeding to some is just a dirty word, and linebreeding....well that just makes it all the better in our world.......

Post by **kninebirddog** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:40 pm

another thought on inbreeding and line breeding

In breeding is where the tree barely forks

Line breeding your adding some branches to the tree

quailrunner · Post by **quailrunner** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:16 am

Then isn't in-breeding just pruning the tree?

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:09 am

quailrunner wrote:Then isn't in-breeding just pruning the tree?

Both inbreeding and linebreeding prune the tree....one is just quicker than the other.

Wenaha · Post by **Wenaha** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:35 am

lvrgsp wrote:Ok Wenaha.....your Sunrise bred pup is 16% Coi..? That is what I read correct? Ok so is he linebred or inbred? And is the 16% a COI or COL?
COI meaning Coefficient of inbreeding?
COL meaning Coefficent of Linebreeding?
I have yet to see a COL rating here folks......were talking inbreeding it is what it is....like it or not, call it what you want thats ok, but in its simplest form for the sake of discussion linebreeding/inbreeding is one in the same PERIOD............
Call it what you want thats really not a concern....heck you can call it Wenaha breeding, honestly. Quit reading all the crap on the "bleep" web.....for all intensive purposes its one in the same. Thats why the percentages of inbreeding AKA COI was established to determine the percentage of inbreeding, we the humans decide if we want to call it linebreeding or not, you know why?
Because inbreeding to some is just a dirty word, and linebreeding....well that just makes it all the better in our world.......

The pedigree I posted above was meant to illustrate two points...

1. Line breeding is multi-generational and almost always includes some dogs that are NOT related. The example I posted includes a number of unrelated dogs, in this example Destinaire and Grouse Ridge Kim, among others. TM Sunrise appears 7 times in 5 generations.

2. A dog can have a fairly high COI without breeding father to daughter of brother to sister.

Again, in-breeding is just one tool in line breeding.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:11 am

Saying "line-breeding" makes some folks feel better about "in-breeding" their dogs.

BTW my Dez dog has a COI of 24.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:24 pm

It's really pretty simple....if a litter turns out nice, it is line breeding and if it turns out bad, it is in breeding.

IMO, it's all just a figure of speech.

Charlie

northern cajun · Post by **northern cajun** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:01 pm

lvrgsp wrote:Ok Wenaha.....your Sunrise bred pup is 16% Coi..? That is what I read correct? Ok so is he linebred or inbred? And is the 16% a COI or COL?
COI meaning Coefficient of inbreeding?
COL meaning Coefficent of Linebreeding?
I have yet to see a COL rating here folks......were talking inbreeding it is what it is....like it or not, call it what you want thats ok, but in its simplest form for the sake of discussion linebreeding/inbreeding is one in the same PERIOD............
Call it what you want thats really not a concern....heck you can call it Wenaha breeding, honestly. Quit reading all the crap on the "bleep" web.....for all intensive purposes its one in the same. Thats why the percentages of inbreeding AKA COI was established to determine the percentage of inbreeding, we the humans decide if we want to call it linebreeding or not, you know why?
Because inbreeding to some is just a dirty word, and linebreeding....well that just makes it all the better in our world.......

Well put!

BIRDDOWN · Post by **BIRDDOWN** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:19 pm

[quote="ACooper"]Saying "line-breeding" makes some folks feel better about "in-breeding"

Same thing i tried telling my Cuzzen

Wenaha · Post by **Wenaha** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:47 pm

kninebirddog wrote:wenaha.. viewtopic.php?f=69&t=28912&p=265185&hil ... ot#p265185
I read wheles book I also entered Snakefoots nine generation in my breeders software program...I still wonder why he bashed spunky creek boy saying he had to get rid of the pups and yet in the Ancestory report the dog he claimed to be in snakefoots pedigree hundreds of times Lexington Jake is no where close to his claims and spunky creek the dog he bashed so hard is in snakefoots pedigree 15 times
but then here is the top 17 dogs that have grand parent contribution or higher to Snakefoots pedigree

Animal Name.................. Appearances.............. % Contribution
...................................in pedigree..................................

ELHEW YELLOW RAIL................. 1 .......................50.0000

ELHEW STRIKE......................... 1....................... 50.0000

ELHEW RAINDROP ......................1....................... 25.0000

ELHEW BRASS ...........................1....................... 25.0000

ELHEW GIMLI ...........................1........................ 25.0000

HOOK'S BOUNTY HUNTER ...............1....................... 25.0000

ELHEW BOBOLINK ........................3 .......................21.8750

RED WATER REX ..........................7 .......................19.5313

ELHEW ITALY ..................... .......2 ........................18.7500

ELHEW HUCKATUCK ......................2 .........................18.7500

ELHEW HUCKLEBERRY.................... 13.........................17.3828

ELHEW JUNGLE............................ 31 .........................17.3828

ELHEW ELLIE MAE ...........................1 .........................12.5000

CAINE'S ROYAL CLOUD........................ 1....................... 12.5000

PALADIN'S ROYAL LEGACY ...................1......................... 12.5000

ELHEW ROUND ABOUT ........................1........................ 12.5000

GUARD RAIL ....................................1 ........................12.5000

What I would be really interested in is when he was breeding blue foxes for their pelts. There is where you can really tell what a program is doing

also when he was raising horses

Kninebirdog:

Here is a link to an article by Bob Wehle in a 1991 American Field article. If you have not already read it, you might find it interesting...

http://www.superiorpointers.com/pdf/Weh ... eeding.pdf

Troy08er · Post by **Troy08er** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:48 pm

How do you get a COL rating. I know my Gator dog has to be high.

Wenaha · Post by **Wenaha** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 5:54 pm

Troy08er wrote:How do you get a COL rating. I know my Gator dog has to be high.

Troy08er:

Unless he has some secret algorithm, the poster is just blowing smoke in an attempt to support his views. A 6 or 10 generation COI on your dog will tell you something, along with an ancestor contribution table. Or don't worry about it and enjoy your dog.

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:09 pm

Or don't worry about it and enjoy your dog

+1.

Charlie

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 6:24 pm

Wenaha wrote:
Troy08er wrote:How do you get a COL rating. I know my Gator dog has to be high.
Troy08er:

Unless he has some secret algorithm, the poster is just blowing smoke in an attempt to support his views. A 6 or 10 generation COI on your dog will tell you something, along with an ancestor contribution table. Or don't worry about it and enjoy your dog.

Call it smoke or what you want......I need not support my views, there mine, as I've said before call it what you want believe what you want.....
6 or 10 generation COI? A great variance in COI's can be had from 6 to 10 gens.....Ancestor contribution table? Better make sure the darn peds correct first, and what ancestor contributes what......
But your last statement is probably the best I have seen yet........and I agree with. Enjoy your dog and don't worry about it.

You can stick to the algorithyms, sounds like you might be better at it...........I know nothing about them..

Troy08er · Post by **Troy08er** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:37 pm

Wenaha wrote:
kninebirddog wrote:wenaha.. viewtopic.php?f=69&t=28912&p=265185&hil ... ot#p265185
I read wheles book I also entered Snakefoots nine generation in my breeders software program...I still wonder why he bashed spunky creek boy saying he had to get rid of the pups and yet in the Ancestory report the dog he claimed to be in snakefoots pedigree hundreds of times Lexington Jake is no where close to his claims and spunky creek the dog he bashed so hard is in snakefoots pedigree 15 times
but then here is the top 17 dogs that have grand parent contribution or higher to Snakefoots pedigree

Animal Name.................. Appearances.............. % Contribution
...................................in pedigree..................................

ELHEW YELLOW RAIL................. 1 .......................50.0000

ELHEW STRIKE......................... 1....................... 50.0000

ELHEW RAINDROP ......................1....................... 25.0000

ELHEW BRASS ...........................1....................... 25.0000

ELHEW GIMLI ...........................1........................ 25.0000

HOOK'S BOUNTY HUNTER ...............1....................... 25.0000

ELHEW BOBOLINK ........................3 .......................21.8750

RED WATER REX ..........................7 .......................19.5313

ELHEW ITALY ..................... .......2 ........................18.7500

ELHEW HUCKATUCK ......................2 .........................18.7500

ELHEW HUCKLEBERRY.................... 13.........................17.3828

ELHEW JUNGLE............................ 31 .........................17.3828

ELHEW ELLIE MAE ...........................1 .........................12.5000

CAINE'S ROYAL CLOUD........................ 1....................... 12.5000

PALADIN'S ROYAL LEGACY ...................1......................... 12.5000

ELHEW ROUND ABOUT ........................1........................ 12.5000

GUARD RAIL ....................................1 ........................12.5000

What I would be really interested in is when he was breeding blue foxes for their pelts. There is where you can really tell what a program is doing

also when he was raising horses
Kninebirdog:

Here is a link to an article by Bob Wehle in a 1991 American Field article. If you have not already read it, you might find it interesting...

http://www.superiorpointers.com/pdf/Weh ... eeding.pdf

Nice read thanks. My next dog going to be a pointer, so I've been reseaching the lines.

quailrunner · Post by **quailrunner** » Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:49 am

It looks like mostly all of the inbreeding or linebreeding of the various breeds of pointing dogs is done on the Dog's line (male). The line that i have been looking at seems to be more structured around the bitches line. Like I said in my original post: breedings of mother/son, 1/2 siblings with common mother and so forth.
I have always felt that a strong mother-line is more beneficial to improving or at least maintaining the qualities desired in a breeding program, but this kind of breeding program is hard to find.
Do you think there is a difference between these types of breeding programs ie. mother-line versus father-line? I'll leave this question a bit vague in the hopes of getting a larger variety of comments.