The reason for purse money.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:14 am

There is a reason for purse money, and it also benifits the breed IMO. If there was more of a purse money, over time you would see the quality of dogs go up. IMO, there are A LOT of dogs out there on a pros string that are not quality animals. And I don't blame the pros one bit for having them on their string. That avg. dog pays the same as their best dog. They eat the same amount of food as the best dog. If there were purse money, you would see the cost of sending a dog down the road go down(bonus to the owner). A dog that isn't cutting it, and making money for that pro would hit the road. Thus, there would be better quality animals on the pros string. The ones that pay the bills get fed. There are pros that work their butts off! But there are also some that are robbing their customers blind! The quality of the pros would have to go up, in turn, the breed will benifit.

Its just an idea. Don't turn this into a bitchfest. What are your opinions.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:36 am

I think that I might agree with that. But one thing that would go away would be the dog for the average hunter. I've seen a lot of people with hot bred trial type dogs that didn't have a clue as to what to do with them. Matter of fact I believe the reason for the increased popularity of shorter range continental dogs is due the the dogs being bred with to much go in them. The GSP people, Britt people, Wirehair and Visla people all seem to be chasing the Pointer. Years ago when I was trialing, a very prominent Wirehair breeder and trialed told me I was lucky. I had Shorthair's then. According to him, I had the run to win field trials, he had to teach his dogs to run. Problem I think is all the open stakes. Wouldn't be a problem other than every breed is held to a certain standard that is best put on pointer's.

I know a few pro trainers that had culls on their string that they were trialing. They knew there wasn't a chance of them winning but they ran them to be sure the dog count was up to earn major points for the few dogs they had that could compete. And it kept the cost's down for the owner's of dog's that did have a chance. I think AKC should get away from the point system to create champions and have them made in championship trials instead. But to run in those championship trials they'd have to qualify the way Amer Fld does now.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:42 am

DonF wrote:I think that I might agree with that. But one thing that would go away would be the dog for the average hunter. I've seen a lot of people with hot bred trial type dogs that didn't have a clue as to what to do with them. Matter of fact I believe the reason for the increased popularity of shorter range continental dogs is due the the dogs being bred with to much go in them. The GSP people, Britt people, Wirehair and Visla people all seem to be chasing the Pointer. Years ago when I was trialing, a very prominent Wirehair breeder and trialed told me I was lucky. I had Shorthair's then. According to him, I had the run to win field trials, he had to teach his dogs to run. Problem I think is all the open stakes. Wouldn't be a problem other than every breed is held to a certain standard that is best put on pointer's.

I know a few pro trainers that had culls on their string that they were trialing. They knew there wasn't a chance of them winning but they ran them to be sure the dog count was up to earn major points for the few dogs they had that could compete. And it kept the cost's down for the owner's of dog's that did have a chance. I think AKC should get away from the point system to create champions and have them made in championship trials instead. But to run in those championship trials they'd have to qualify the way Amer Fld does now.

Good points Don. I agree with you. But so few dogs out of a litter are actually the "fire breathing dragons" it takes to be a quality field trial dog. At best I would say 10% of pups. That to me leaves 90% to good hunting homes.

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:48 am

I would assume that purse money would probly not effect the pros string as much as it will the amature. In my opinion EVERY dog on a pros string is paying the bills, I doubt the pro is going to turn away a customer paying $300-$500 a month (or more), on the chance that they might get a dog that will put them in the money. I do see it as an opportunity to get the competition up in the amature ranks.

Purse money is a double edged sword. It does good things to help get more bodies in the sport, but at the same time it makes the sport about $$$$ and PEOPLE change.

I spent several years competition coon hunting and met alot of people who i would call friends. When PKC and others tarted to host money hunts alot of those people who i had called friends turned into somthing else. I have literally witness grown "bleep" men in fist fights over whether or not the dark spot on a tree limb might or might not be a coons tail.

I agree that if money becomes a factor you will start to see folks show up with better dogs, But do you really want the guys who just come for the $?

Its deffinately something to consider
Jim

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:49 am

I wrote this while Don was posting his but I'll post anyway....similar direction

Couldn't this just give the breeder more incentive to train an average dog better? It goes back to the FF debate of weather or not FF is hurting the breed because you might end up breeding a dog that retrieves well but doesn't have a high natural desire to retrieve. It seems like this would only end up bring out the characteristics of the breed that are most desirable and hardest to fix for trialing. You can always FF a dog but you can't train it to range three states over. So you breed dogs that range far and not ones that retrieve naturally. Also, as the owner of a hunting/house dog, a dog that is bred for it's great trialing characteristics may not be bred for other characteristics that would make it a better house/family dog. A lot of people out there need a house dog first. Having it also be a champ trial dog as well would be awesome but increasing the purse, IMO, would potentially ween those other desirable characteristics out of the breed. Interesting topic,

Tim

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:44 am

The topic begs a couple questions.

Do the AF qualifying trials have purse money, or strictly the Ch's? And if you want the qualifying events to pay purse money...how much is the entry fee going to be? And in an effort to attract people into the sport, are larger entry fees beneficial or a determent to that?

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:59 am

Wyndancer wrote:The topic begs a couple questions.

Do the AF qualifying trials have purse money, or strictly the Ch's? And if you want the qualifying events to pay purse money...how much is the entry fee going to be? And in an effort to attract people into the sport, are larger entry fees beneficial or a determent to that?

Good question. Weekend trials usually have payouts for the open events. Usually, the entry fees for a 1/2 hr. broke dog stake is $45-$50. So I don't think they are that much more expensive then AKC.

tthaden · Post by **tthaden** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:05 am

For starters, Amateurs can not accept purse money and still be an amateur. That is why saddles and the like are awarded to them for their wins.
Second, at every AF Championship I have been to or heard about, there is some unwritten rule that the prize money goes to the pro. So I do not see where that helps the own out one bit.
I did not get into this sport for the money. (Thats why I work 3 jobs so I can compete). Granted, a couple hundred bucks would be nice on occassion, but fear when you start paying to win, you are opening up a can of worms that I am sure the AKC would not want... face it ... any time money is involved, corruption is not far behind. There are already peolpe saying "he won cause it was his trial or buddies with the Judge, etc etc" Start throwing money in there ... no thanks!!
Also... never been to an AKC weekend event where the open events pay out... must be going to the wrong trials.

Post by **topher40** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:07 am

Vagas-
When you say "weekend trials have pay outs" where are these at? With a $40-$50 entry fee I dont see how there is any money left over to pay anything out. My trial is this weekend and the Sh Dog 45 minutes is $50. I will need all the dogs I can get to break even. If I dont have at a MINIMUM 30 dogs for the entire trial then I am losing money. Maybe I need some better sponsors.

Post by **topher40** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:09 am

tthaden wrote:For starters, Amateurs can not accept purse money and still be an amateur. That is why saddles and the like are awarded to them for their wins.
Second, at every AF Championship I have been to or heard about, there is some unwritten rule that the prize money goes to the pro. So I do not see where that helps the own out one bit.
I did not get into this sport for the money. (Thats why I work 3 jobs so I can compete). Granted, a couple hundred bucks would be nice on occassion, but fear when you start paying to win, you are opening up a can of worms that I am sure the AKC would not want... face it ... any time money is involved, corruption is not far behind. There are already peolpe saying "he won cause it was his trial or buddies with the Judge, etc etc" Start throwing money in there ... no thanks!!
Also... never been to an AKC weekend event where the open events pay out... must be going to the wrong trials.

Last I knew you could accept money if it was your dog your were handling. Maybe I am wrong.

shags · Post by **shags** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:17 am

We set our entry fees to cover expenses and hopefully allow us to show a small profit; fees average about 50 bucks. Now if the open broke dog stake(s) offer a purse of 50% of entries, and those are our biggest stakes, then to break even or hopefully show a small profit, we'd have to double the fees in those stakes. Not many clubs can just break even or go in the red and continue to put on a good trial. The alternative would be to raise all fees in all stakes to cover the offered purse, and that wouldn't be conducive to growing the entries across the board.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:20 am

There are occasionally stakes down here at AKC trials that have payouts. Not a lot, but a few.

It's probably different for different venues, but I don't believe the purse stakes at the weekend trials I've been to do anything to better the competition. Pros seem to enter the dogs they were already planning on entering, and if anything, amateurs might avoid that stake and enter the other ones instead, since the purse stake's entry is usually $10-$20 higher.

Just referring to AKC weekend trials and can't comment on anything else.

Dave Quindt · Post by **Dave Quindt** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:34 am

Given how there is absolutely no purse money or prizes in retriever field trialing, yet that game has seen all these supposed benefits I'd rather see us pointing dog folks get rid of all purses/prizes/etc than up them.

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:35 am

But would an increase of the purse benefit the breed?

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:43 am

tthaden wrote:For starters, Amateurs can not accept purse money and still be an amateur....

Wrong

topher40 wrote:Last I knew you could accept money if it was your dog your were handling. Maybe I am wrong.

Right

As long as the dog you win with, receive money guiding with, is solely owned by you or in partnership with one of your immediate family members, you can take any and all winnings.

Higher purses would sure be nice for us amateurs!

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:54 am

Whether or not there is money involved wasn't the original question. Would/does the incentive of money benefit the breed?

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:19 pm

topher40 wrote:Vagas-
When you say "weekend trials have pay outs" where are these at? With a $40-$50 entry fee I dont see how there is any money left over to pay anything out. My trial is this weekend and the Sh Dog 45 minutes is $50. I will need all the dogs I can get to break even. If I dont have at a MINIMUM 30 dogs for the entire trial then I am losing money. Maybe I need some better sponsors.

Chris, we had payout for all our 1/2hr stuff. 50% of total entry split 50-30-20. The other 50% went to the club.

As far as excepting money, you can except money for a dog you own by yourself. However, you can not get a win certificate from the AFTCA. So for a lot of the derby placements, we as a club ended up with the whole entry most of the time because guys wanted to qualify their dogs for am. championships.

As far as does it better the breed. IMO, yes it does.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:26 pm

tthaden wrote:For starters, Amateurs can not accept purse money and still be an amateur. That is why saddles and the like are awarded to them for their wins.
Second, at every AF Championship I have been to or heard about, there is some unwritten rule that the prize money goes to the pro. So I do not see where that helps the own out one bit.
I did not get into this sport for the money. (Thats why I work 3 jobs so I can compete). Granted, a couple hundred bucks would be nice on occassion, but fear when you start paying to win, you are opening up a can of worms that I am sure the AKC would not want... face it ... any time money is involved, corruption is not far behind. There are already peolpe saying "he won cause it was his trial or buddies with the Judge, etc etc" Start throwing money in there ... no thanks!!
Also... never been to an AKC weekend event where the open events pay out... must be going to the wrong trials.

There is a lot going on in your statements here Tim. First, as stated before, youre wrong on the amateurs excepting money. Second, there are different situations set up with different pros as far as where the money goes. How, it helps the owner is, the price of your monthly bill should go down. If they make money with purses your bill goes down. Next, are you that nieve to think there isn't "corruption" and shady stuff going on without money. To be honest, I think there is A LOT less of it in the major circuit then on the weekend trials. Finally, I never said there was money in AKC events, thats the point of this post.

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:45 pm

I think it would overall help the breeds due to higher competition to get the top dollar. Those "slackers" on the string wouldn't be there.

How, it helps the owner is, the price of your monthly bill should go down. If they make money with purses your bill goes down.
I personally (from a businessman standpoint) do not think the overall bill from a pro would go down. If I was the pro...my fees would stay the same, the entry and handling fees would be the same...the monthly "on my string" fee would be the same, I would keep the winnings (as I assume all pros do). Why would a pro take money OUT of his pocket (to reduce client fees) just because purses are bigger. Maybe throw a nice end of season party for my clients, but that is about it.

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:50 pm

PntrRookie wrote:I think it would overall help the breeds due to higher competition to get the top dollar. Those "slackers" on the string wouldn't be there.

How, it helps the owner is, the price of your monthly bill should go down. If they make money with purses your bill goes down.
I personally (from a businessman standpoint) do not think the overall bill from a pro would go down. If I was the pro...my fees would stay the same, the entry and handling fees would be the same...the monthly "on my string" fee would be the same, I would keep the winnings (as I assume all pros do). Why would a pro take money OUT of his pocket (to reduce client fees) just because purses are bigger. Maybe throw a nice end of season party for my clients, but that is about it.

You don't think certain characteristics that the average hunter values may be over looked?

PntrRookie · Post by **PntrRookie** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:57 pm

DogNewbie wrote:You don't think certain characteristics that the average hunter values may be over looked?

Such as? I can only think of one...retrieving...?

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 12:58 pm

I dont think cash purses do any more to better a breed than titles and trophies. The dogs that are winning titles will be the same dogs that will win the cash, so other than guys starting to breed in persuit of the all mighty dollar (literally), which we have seen ruin as many breeds as it has helped, what do you see cash purses doing for the breeds? Seems to me the people who are interested in winning FTs and selectively breeding to improve their breed of choice are already doing it......

Jim

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:12 pm

jimbo&rooster wrote:I dont think cash purses do any more to better a breed than titles and trophies. The dogs that are winning titles will be the same dogs that will win the cash, so other than guys starting to breed in persuit of the all mighty dollar (literally), which we have seen ruin as many breeds as it has helped, what do you see cash purses doing for the breeds? Seems to me the people who are interested in winning FTs and selectively breeding to improve their breed of choice are already doing it......

Jim

True Jim, but there are quite a few dogs out there with FC in front of their name that aren't worth a lick. They say, my dog is a FC we should breed to him. How is that helping the breed? The level of competition would go up, which in return would produce better animals.

Greg,

I would bet the avg. monthly fee of an AF pro is quite a bit less than the avg. AKC pro.

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:19 pm

PntrRookie wrote:
DogNewbie wrote:You don't think certain characteristics that the average hunter values may be over looked?
Such as? I can only think of one...retrieving...?

I'd argue that certain personality traits such as quiet, good with kids, good with other dogs, desires to be with people, non aggressive, etc, that are essential to a good house dog may be over looked by breeders wanting a great trialing dog. And maybe these personality traits aren't genetic but situational, I don't have the experience to say. I'd guess barking, aggression and desire to be with people would be genetics, but could see the others being more situational. Just a thought.

Tim

myerstenn · Post by **myerstenn** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:28 pm

If the pro had better dogs he would run then, making more money via a purse is going to have little affect on what the pro has in his string and chooses to run. Money pays bills, not all trainers have the same skill sets. Your logic is not logical. By the way you need to run more weekend trials. Money purses mean lost revenue and red ink or higher entry fees. Most of us are in the field trial business to enjoy our dogs and field trials. Not pays bills to a pro and qualify as an owner. Your opinion as an "owner " means very little to me and possibilly others!!!!

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:30 pm

DogNewbie wrote:
PntrRookie wrote:
DogNewbie wrote:You don't think certain characteristics that the average hunter values may be over looked?
Such as? I can only think of one...retrieving...?
I'd argue that certain personality traits such as quiet, good with kids, good with other dogs, desires to be with people, non aggressive, etc, that are essential to a good house dog may be over looked by breeders wanting a great trialing dog. And maybe these personality traits aren't genetic but situational, I don't have the experience to say. I'd guess barking, aggression and desire to be with people would be genetics, but could see the others being more situational. Just a thought.

Tim

I wouldn't disagree with you, but I don't think those specific things would change any more than what are in the dogs now. Although I haven't seen a lot of these problems in trial dogs besides the barking.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:32 pm

Tim,
A lot of dogs on a string will bark because they are excited just like a dog in the back yard would. The dogs on a tie out may be aggressive because you have never been around them and they are basically being cornered. If you take dogs that bark off of the tie out or chain gang they will shut right up.

Mine barks on a tie out only if I show up... loves kids and will flow and bump them with her nose if she isn't being pet, its kinda funny. She let's 7 kids all attack her and loves it. A lot of trial dogs are also family dogs in the days / months off.

Bad breeding will usually come from the guy who thinks his hunting dog is the best and just breeds to any dog. They will produce mediocre dogs that they let get away with behavioral issues like aggression. Aggressive dogs shouldn't be bred no matter what and should be put down.

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:59 pm

ElhewPointer wrote: I wouldn't disagree with you, but I don't think those specific things would change any more than what are in the dogs now. Although I haven't seen a lot of these problems in trial dogs besides the barking.

Well you'd for sure know better than me. Being a first time dog owner many of my opinions are based off what I've heard or assumptions. What I do know is what the average hunter (me) looks for in his dogs. The most important quality is that it'll be a well behaved, easy pet. However, the second most important thing the average hunter is looking for is proven bloodlines. We want a dog that can hunt and the only way to really prove that is through trialing. If the first requirement isn't affected by only breeding for trialing characteristics great! But I'm not totally convinced that, in the long run, some of those characteristics won't get weened out.

Here's an example of what I would be concerned about. Last night I went to see a family friends new champ bloodline pudelpointer puppy. It's from a long awaited breeding and the sire is the most winning pudelpointer in Germany. But even at 8 weeks, in my very inexperienced eyes, I thought that this pup is going to be a hard headed and very independent dog. It'll do awesome in the field for sure, but already it's barking and nipping at people and other dogs. It was the most aggressive puppy I'd ever encountered. I think it'll be a great house pet, but I wouldn't be surprised if it takes a little more effort than the average hunting pudelpointer. This of course is only one example. I'm sure there are hundreds that could counter mine. Once again I find myself talking in circles... :roll:

DogNewbie · Post by **DogNewbie** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 2:07 pm

ultracarry wrote:Tim,
Bad breeding will usually come from the guy who thinks his hunting dog is the best and just breeds to any dog. They will produce mediocre dogs that they let get away with behavioral issues like aggression. Aggressive dogs shouldn't be bred no matter what and should be put down.

Yeah that's a good point.

doco · Post by **doco** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 2:10 pm

In support of the Pro's, if there were enough great dogs out there to make a living on and win, there wouldn't be any mediocre dogs on their string. I'm sure that every string could probably use a little cleaning up. However, if they only took the great ones, how much more would it cost to campaign those few on a short string, and who could afford the higher monthly fees. Less entries + less money = less trials.

As an amatuer, I certainly would expect some of the purse to reduce my monthly bills if I were with a pro. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve some, but if I'm footing the bill every weekend, I wouldn't mind a little dessert now and then.

Still it is a tough debate to determine what is fair. With every pro, there's a con, and as said earlier the green monster wouldn't take long to rear it's ugly head.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:35 pm

Vegas you said the AF pros fees are cheaper then the AKC pros are you sure you don't have that backwards ? How many of the top AF pros do you know that charge $450 or less a month plus they charge a handling fee for each trial.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:55 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Vegas you said the AF pros fees are cheaper then the AKC pros are you sure you don't have that backwards ? How many of the top AF pros do you know that charge $450 or less a month plus they charge a handling fee for each trial.

Most of them actually. And I've yet to work with one that had a handling fee. Since im just an "owner", I would know this.

Also, I didn't say they were. I said, I bet if you avg. the two.

orbirdhunter · Post by **orbirdhunter** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:59 pm

So then, is one of the questions.....what exactly are field trial people breeding for in there dogs, what is making a superior field trial dog and is that a benefit to the breed as a whole???

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:43 pm

I have no doubt that higher cash purses will sharpen the competition at the championship level. I also have no doubt that the increased fees that are the direct result of increased purses will drive down the number of competing dogs. There will be less dogs on pro strings. They will be of better quality, but there will be less of them.

What I do no see any evidence of is a benefit to the orgainzations running weekend trials. Most clubs are currently subsidizing the open stakes to a significant degree. If the amateur shooting dog stake is $40 and the open shooting dog stake is $50 with a fifty percent payout, then the amatuer stakes are subsidizing the open stakes to the tune of fifteen bucks per open entry. That is what is happening right now.

If the cash purses were to be increased, then one of two things would have to happen. The cost of the open stake entry would have to go up dramatically, like the cost of the amateur entry plus an amount equivalent to the purse percentage OR, the cost of the Amateur entries would have to go up to further subsidize the open stakes.

Unlike our idiotic federal government, we cannot justy print more money and go merrily on our way. Field trial clubs recognize that the money has to come from somewhere. There are no deep pocket sponsors for bird dog field trials. There are no TV networks lining up to pay for broadcast rights. There are no armies of loyal fans waiting to pay admission just to watch.

Either the owners of the dogs entered in open stakes have to pay more or the amateurs running in companion stakes have to pay more, to subsidize the open stakes, if purses are increased. When prices go up...attendance goes down.

It has always annoyed me somewhat that amateurs arfe expected to subsidize the pros. We run their trials, do the vast majority of the work at those same trials and judge their dogs...all for free and for the love of the sport... and also help to underwrite their entry fees.

If the owners of the open dogs have to pay higher entry fees, the quality of the dogs they are supporting will very likely go up, but just as likely, the number of dogs they are supporting will go down. That is not a winning combination either.

Currently, there are both financial and performance barriers to an amateur wishing to compete in open stakes. If the purses were increased, I would think that both those barriers would be raised significantly, further lowering the number of dogs entered in open stakes, especially weekend ones.

I personally do not compete in open stakes as a rule, but I will, very often, pay the additional cost to run a derby in an open stake because the quality of the pro trained derbies is usually very high and the level of training they have is similarly verty high. The extra money does two things for me. it allows me to see how my dog stacks up against some of the better derby prospects in my area and it allows me to do it with a fairly high level of confidence that the dog I happen to be braced with will not undo two or three months of my training on my dog.

However if the open derby entry fee was twice that of the amateur derby entry fee, I'd have to think about that, some.

In the end, many folks participation in this and other sports comes down to money. Discretionary income, I think it is called. Some like me call it mess up money.

Folks that used to keep ten dogs and campaign five may have to cut back to keeping five and campaigning two. I see it happening as we speak. Once the numbers of competitive dogs are whittled down, what else does that do to the competitions?

If it costs a thousand dollars to go to a trial, most folks will go with every good dog they have and run them. If you have whittled your string down to one good dog and you are not absolutely certain that the dog can win ...do you even go with just the one dog? Do you drive twenty hours, ride for two days, just to run one dog for an hour?

We are in tough economic times right now. Entries are down in many places and clubs are hanging on, trying to survive. Simply increasing purses might have disastrous collateral effects .

RayG

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:50 pm

Although I don't agree with everything Ray, I appriciate a great answer! Thanks.

mudhunter · Post by **mudhunter** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:52 pm

orbirdhunter wrote:So then, is one of the questions.....what exactly are field trial people breeding for in there dogs, what is making a superior field trial dog and is that a benefit to the breed as a whole???

The guys that I know who produce consistent winners breed primarily for brains! Don't misunderstand, if the dog doesn't have the tools (style, nose, class) its not even considered. But brains win trials consistently (yes a crazy nut dog wins sometimes too but not consistently) and brains make a hunting dog an exceptional bird dog.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:18 pm

Vagas-

I am all for something that will get the juices flowing...as long as I am not forced to participate or underwrite it.

If the owners wanted to get together and put up fifty additional bucks for each weekend entry, with the understanding that 100% of that particular pot of money would go to the winning owners 60-30-10, maybe 100 bucks for a championship and the split be 70-30 that could work. That would have no effect on anyone other than those owners but it sure would go a long way toward defraying some expenses for the winning owner.

Some trials run calcuttas, where owners and others have the opportunity to bid on their dogs. If like 80% or more of the calcutta went to the high bidder of the winning dog, that could be a real sweet pot.

I would be in complete support of something like that because I don't see where it would hurt anything and it definitely could help.

RayG

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:21 pm

The dogs that are at the top are not there because they are unruly or runoffs or agressive. They are there beacause they are biddable and smart enough to use the excellent genetics they inherited.
I have owned and culled a whole lot of dogs. I have learned and only to buy lines of what's on the cover or been on the cover of the American Field. Flat out the easiest dogs in the home and the field. Other than the barking.
Also i think breed specific and registry specific competitions are for those who can't compete. Run what you brung and may the best dog win. It can be pink or green and only have three legs if it finds the most birds that's the dog that deserves the win.
If you think i am wrong word is they are having a marathon only for fat people who wear corrective lenses and they winner gets to put ch in front of their name.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:25 pm

How many trials you been to cause the MOST wins doesn't always get the blue & in some cases not a placement,More to it then that!

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:07 am

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:How many trials you been to cause the MOST wins doesn't always get the blue & in some cases not a placement,More to it then that!

I have been to a few as a gunner and also in the gallery. I met a few good people but many more were A@@e's. I did see a whole lot I did not like. I ended up being banned for a year after a trial where I didint even have a dog running. Pretty cool just me and the judge watching dogs and following horseback but back at camp I get to hearthe whineing and yelping. sad part is it wasnt the dogs doing it!

I am optomistic that all clubs and trials are not like that. I belive most of it goes back to the whole demeanor of theclub that was hosting. But thats okay it just motivates me more. I know what i have and I know my dogs will flat out smoke theirs on wild quail in the high desert.

However I would like to attend some of the AFTCA events in the near future, Hopefully they have something in my state this year. I dont know if anyone from reigion 12 frequents this board. but im keeping an eye out for any events in reasonable distance from me.

MOST wins doesn't always get the blue & in some cases not a placement,More to it then that![/quote

I believe thats directed to me. As a hunter what matters the most to me is the dog that finds and points the most birds.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:41 pm

Gotpointers yes that was aimed at you & I understand what your saying about hunting & the fact is your hunting dogs come from TOP Field Trial dogs so they might not have always had the MOST finds to acompplish
there being on top Status.
Another fact is that in some cases a dog with out any finds might place over a dog with finds though that may not be common practice but it does & has happened in AF sanctioned trials.Won't happen in AKC trials though.

Post by **jcbuttry8** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:50 pm

I think purses would be a mistake. Most everyone I have seen on this site hunts first and trials for fun. Everyone I have met at the trials does so because they love it. Very little complaining about a dog or the way the trial finished out. Guess it does happen when it is needed. Involve money and you will see a whole new level of people showing up at these events. The fighting among handlers will definitely increase and most definitely the exposure that would come from it would be negative not a positive. IMO.

As for people breeding to a dog just because it has an FC in front of his name, doesn't relieve the owner of the female from doing his job of checking out the background of the animal. Besides, it would be one thing if it was as easy as going to a couple of trials and putting an FC on a dog. There are many dogs at these trials and if that dog is the best at every trial he has been to and has earned the FC what makes him less to a dog that is owned or handled by some trainer that is well renouned. You still have to earn those points. It still takes time and a dog that can handle well and is trained.

Joe

Brooks Carmichael · Post by **Brooks Carmichael** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:05 pm

Vagas and others have made valid statements and I agee with most of them. I do not know, if prize money improves the breed one way or another, I leave that to others. But, field trials are put on by amateurs and without them we would not have field trials. On another note field trials were started because of something to do after the bird seasons were over. They, then developed into friendly competition and well everyone knows the rest of the story. It is lively hood for many people out there. I field trial because I am still having fun and enjoy the competion. I try to find the best breeding out there in the shorthair world. I am sure it is true for others in other breeds. If, I did not enjoy Ft, I would get out and no matter how much prize money was given, I would leave the game. I know a professional trainer who did that this year. He had won several championships and his string was building but he no longer enjoyed it and went on to other endeavors.

What I am trying to say is have fun, enjoy it while you can and if you are lucky, win a championship or two. It can really make your day. Good luck to everyone out there and have fun. Enjoy the food, the friendships you make, and the dogs you own, we are here but a short time.