Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

User avatar
Stoneface
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1050
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:33 pm
Location: Terrell/Quinlan, Texas

Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by Stoneface » Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:56 pm

I've been involved with Shorthairs and am a new convert to Pointers, so I've got a ways to go before I'm totally up to snuff in the lines, but I see a few that I really like. One thing I place in high regard in a birddog is intelligence. So, is there a line or a few lines of Pointers that you think just sticks out as being a great producer of highly intelligent dogs? I've asked this question to a lot of folks and it seems that Guard Rail and Elhew seem to be the two most common answers.
www.PoetryShootingClub.com
www.StonefaceKennels.com
----------
"I have found it far more pleasuable pursuing the game with a fine dog and enjoying his performance than the actual shooting." -Robert G. Wehle

User avatar
Elkhunter
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1058
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 12:42 pm
Location: Idaho

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by Elkhunter » Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:07 pm

I have a Sir Lancelot/White Powder male that does a good job, never gets lost, learns fast.

User avatar
Troy08er
Rank: 3X Champion
Posts: 515
Joined: Sat Sep 05, 2009 6:09 pm
Location: Bakersfield, Ca.

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by Troy08er » Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:29 pm

StoneFace wrote:I've been involved with Shorthairs and am a new convert to Pointers, so I've got a ways to go before I'm totally up to snuff in the lines, but I see a few that I really like. One thing I place in high regard in a birddog is intelligence. So, is there a line or a few lines of Pointers that you think just sticks out as being a great producer of highly intelligent dogs? I've asked this question to a lot of folks and it seems that Guard Rail and Elhew seem to be the two most common answers.

StoneFace I'm in the same boat as you.I have been doing a lot of research and was told to check out the Miller or Fiddler lines. Went and watch one of my friends run his pointers on some birds. He has one male which had some Miller blood and a female that was breed off the Fiddler line. For me I liked the way the female ran she took my breath away. I was going to buy out of state but he's going to line breed his female at the end of the year. His house is around the corner so I can see the pups every day and pick my own pup out. I would just go watch some run and see what you like.
Image
Kresha's Gator of Troy
Image
TK'S OILDALE RUNNER
Get Your Free Pedigree Today!





I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." Thomas Jefferson

Birddogz
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1488
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:18 pm
Location: Garrison, ND

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by Birddogz » Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:31 pm

:D ......"Hello, this is my brother Darryl, this is my other brother Darryl." :D Sorry couldn't resist.
Speak kindly to me, beloved master. Revel in my unconditional love, and give me every minute that you can spare, for my time with you is short.

User avatar
birddog1968
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3043
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:40 pm
Location: Wherever I may roam

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by birddog1968 » Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:43 pm

They all have their smart dogs....they all got some real dunces too just like any other breed.

I have been very pleased with the intelligence I have seen from Miller dogs.
The second kick from a mule is of very little educational value - from Wing and Shot.

Hunters Pale Rider

Hunters Branch Jalapeno

User avatar
gotpointers
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 995
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 2:27 am
Location: Belen,Nm

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by gotpointers » Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:48 pm

There flat out is a ton of good pointer lines out there.I will buy a swami direct offspring in a heartbeat. I have a direct son of the real national champion two years back Lesters Snowatch that i really like a whole lot. Snowatchs son and my dogs half brother Touchs Whiteout is the current national champion. I am a big fan of the miller dogs. Whipporwill line. Erins tin soldier. Rockacre blackhawk..
If you look back in most of the top current pointers you will see a whole lot of miller.
If you are asking because you are in the market try to get a pup directly out of your favorite dog. The more generations you get away the more diluted the genetic qualities become. Also 50% of that is going to come from the dam so pay attention to the bottom just as much as the top.

User avatar
prairiefirepointers
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1142
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:34 am
Location: Pretty Prairie, Kansas USA

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by prairiefirepointers » Tue Oct 11, 2011 9:17 pm

I have Elhew, Miller, and FRB lines... They all have their attributes. However, I hands down prefer my big ol Elhew dogs. And, my preference isn't soley based on intelligence. However its complicated because there are things I really like about my FRB dogs that I don't see in my Elhew dogs. The best thing about my Miller dogs is they are mixed with something else. :lol:
Jess Stucky
Prairie Fire Pointers & Supply
Pretty Prairie, KS
http://www.prairiefirepointers.com
http://www.prairiefirepointersupply.com
'Distinguished Dogs for the Discriminating Hunter'
Doesn't Your Dog Deserve The Best?

"Add clarity to your life, see through the eyes of a dog"

User avatar
Stoneface
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1050
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:33 pm
Location: Terrell/Quinlan, Texas

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by Stoneface » Tue Oct 11, 2011 10:30 pm

GP, there's a slough of nice lines and one to fit any preference in any given breed. I wasn't asking which line is the "best", but was wondering which line you thought threw, typically, dogs with a higher intelligence level. I'm not necessarily in the market for a pup (not until I rehome a dog or two, first), but I think I know which way I'm going to bring on new dogs. You'll see me ask a bunch of questions. Knowledge is power as I see it and there's no need to wonder with such a wealth of knowledge and opinions at our fingertips.
www.PoetryShootingClub.com
www.StonefaceKennels.com
----------
"I have found it far more pleasuable pursuing the game with a fine dog and enjoying his performance than the actual shooting." -Robert G. Wehle

User avatar
PntrRookie
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1870
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:41 pm
Location: SE Wisconsin

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by PntrRookie » Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:22 am

StoneFace wrote:which line you thought threw, typically, dogs with a higher intelligence level.
I hope some "weathered ol coots" give you some examples because I would be interested to know if there really is a line that excels with brains. Here are my 2 cents...sometimes a dog with high intelligence will be a tough one to break. I have a female right now that at first I didn't think she "got it". But now that we have run her for over 2 years and put a lot of training time into her, have figured out she is extremely intelligent and too good for her own good. She knows when she can screw ya., she knows when to blow out the front, she knows when she should NOT take the bird out and also when she CAN take it out. She is a VERY smart cookie that has all the tools and brains to go with it. The TOUGHEST part of our training is to "dumb her down". :)

Maybe your "intelligence/brains" could be changed to which lines threw the most biddable dogs...that meaning, ease to train, and handle, etc...

User avatar
Stoneface
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1050
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:33 pm
Location: Terrell/Quinlan, Texas

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by Stoneface » Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:46 am

Biddability is a great thing, but that has more to do with a dog's ease of training and reaction to the handler/trainer. If a dog's not biddable you can make up for a lot of that if you're a good trainer. Intelligence, on the other hand, gives a dog the faculties to *think* about things in the field. He'll put two and two together and realize, faster, that he needs to hit objectives to find birds, work the west side of a fence row or hedge row if the wind is blowing from the east. I still haven't met a trainer good enough to train a dog to work the wind, but you see dogs do it. The more intelligent they are, the faster they figure that out.
www.PoetryShootingClub.com
www.StonefaceKennels.com
----------
"I have found it far more pleasuable pursuing the game with a fine dog and enjoying his performance than the actual shooting." -Robert G. Wehle

User avatar
Birdman250
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 175
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2008 2:41 pm
Location: NE Wisconsin

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by Birdman250 » Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:19 am

I believe many dogs out there are very smart..Obviously they are smart enough to make us frustrated..In serious note, IMO intelligence is not breed or pedigree specific, less some crappy backyard breeders. I have seen all types of dogs do amazing things in the field and inside the house. I had converted to pointers because I love their styles and look. One of my pointers is and has outsmart me..Similiar situation to that of PntrRookie. Now most of my smart dogs are training me :D
A dog is the extension of its owner.

Paul : http://www.pmtkennels.com

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16625
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:35 am

I have read where most dogs are pretty much alike in intelligence. Since dogs don't really thik it would be hard to judge. They do say the standard poodle tends to be the smartest dog but overall dogs do not rank high on the scale. What we do breed for is instinct and I think that is what you are describing more than intelligence. Instinct and biddability just might be misread as intelligence.

Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

User avatar
ymepointer
Rank: 4X Champion
Posts: 611
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2008 1:21 pm
Location: The Pacific Northwest

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by ymepointer » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:13 am

I don't own a pure Elhew but I do know that Welhe stated his aim in breeding his line was intelligence and ease of breaking. Most of my miller dogs did not necessarily strike me as super smart but were super athletic and driven. I have a Sir Lancelot bitch I got from Holye Eaton that is the easiest dog I have had the pleasure of owning but I don't know if it's smarts or instinct....Nice Nice dog though. I crossed her to a pure Elhew sire and one fo the pups is super smart, which is really a double edged sword, she learned how to open her kennel gate at 3 months and I have to watch myself like a hawlk or she is out and gone hunting the back forty...LOL

User avatar
Cajun Casey
GDF Junkie
Posts: 4243
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:59 pm
Location: Tulsa, OK

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by Cajun Casey » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:40 am

ezzy333 wrote:I have read where most dogs are pretty much alike in intelligence. Since dogs don't really thik it would be hard to judge. They do say the standard poodle tends to be the smartest dog but overall dogs do not rank high on the scale. What we do breed for is instinct and I think that is what you are describing more than intelligence. Instinct and biddability just might be misread as intelligence.

Ezzy
Sell that to a Border collie.
Last edited by Cajun Casey on Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

Birddogz
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1488
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:18 pm
Location: Garrison, ND

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by Birddogz » Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:55 pm

http://www.petrix.com/dogint/11-26.html

Here is a list of all dogs.
Speak kindly to me, beloved master. Revel in my unconditional love, and give me every minute that you can spare, for my time with you is short.

User avatar
Birddog3412
Rank: 2X Champion
Posts: 491
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:09 am
Location: Oblong, Illinois

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by Birddog3412 » Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:31 pm

I don't think this question can have an honest answer, just personal preference. It is like asking which nationality is the smartest human? :D

I really like and have had great luck with dogs that are 1/2 to 3/4 elhew, with an outcross to joe shadow or island grove brute. My uncle owned igb mom, island grove elegance after she was retired from field trialing. She was an awesome dog.

User avatar
jcbuttry8
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 801
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:21 pm
Location: Bucks County, PA

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by jcbuttry8 » Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:50 pm

Kona is out of fiddler Miller lines. There are several other notables in the mix as well. Those lines are similar on the top and bottom for the sire and dam. She is my first pointer so I'm a little biased. I have always had shorthairs and brits. My shorthairs were out of Rawhides Clown and were big runners just as Kona is, but they never looked as good as this pointer nor did they seem to have the ability she does. I will never own anything other than a pointer after her.

She has a great nose, the way she holds herself is just beautiful and very easy to train. She takes reprimand well and recovers quickly. There is nothing soft about her. Can be a little hard headed but comes around with a little patience. Just as good indoors as she is outdoors. She stays in the run during the day and comes in at night. Great with the kids and the other dogs. She is the youngest of the dogs and doesn't bow to any dog. Just a very free spirit.

Definitely will look at breeding back to this line in the way future, once she proves herself in the field and the trials.

Joe

RayGubernat
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3308
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:47 am
Location: Central DE

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by RayGubernat » Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:10 pm

A truly smart dog can be an unbelievable PIA to train and keep trained.

A dog that is both smart and soft of disposition can be an absolute nightmare to train. You have to be at the absolute top of your game or the dog will work you over like you wouldn't believe and if you make a mistake in training, you may not be able to get the dog back. Soft dogs are NOT for inexperienced trainers, IMO, especially if you are attempting to mold any type of competitive dog.

If the dog is truly smart, they will constantly be trying to anticipate you and what it is you want them to do. If they are also soft, when you try to enforce your will, they will often resist, resent and avoid if they perceive that the pressure is too much.

Pointers as a breed are on the dumb side of the dog world. That is actually fine by me. A dumb dog might just do what it is taught, the way it is taught and keep on doing it that way. The mensa candidate dog might decide to invent their own way to find, point and take game. That almost always turns out badly. A dumb dog might be so dumb it does not know when to quit. That really works for me. The dumb dog will wait for me because it knows I will get there eventually and when i do, they get the bird. The smart dog will eventually figure that they have waited long enough and begin to free lance the bird thing.

There is a difference, to me, between intelligence and biddability. Biddability implies both intelligence AND a willingness to do what the master wishes.

RayG

ckirsch
Rank: 2X Champion
Posts: 435
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:46 pm
Location: Rapid City, SD

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by ckirsch » Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:54 pm

RayGubernat wrote:Pointers as a breed are on the dumb side of the dog world. RayG
I don't profess to have Ray's experience, but I've not found pointers to be lacking intelligence. I've owned Weims, a wire, and a setter in the past decade, and my current pointers don't give anything up in the way of intelligence. They've also been easier to train / break, although some of that is likely a component of my training ability improving a bit over time. Might just be the individual dogs I wound up with, but my pointers are also the quietest, cleanest, easiest keepers of the dogs I've owned. I'll quickly admit that the Weims and wire were better watchdogs, and the Weims were better escape artists, but in terms of absorbing training, and maintaining that training, the pointers would occupy the top spots on my list.

User avatar
QuailHollow
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 122
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2010 5:21 am
Location: South Central Penn.

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by QuailHollow » Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:21 pm

I have a smart dog. And for the record, I HATE smart dogs. He runs like nothing else I have, he works the field like no other.. a couple of judges who have seen him said to me - "Boy I'd love to have that dog!" "I love to watch that dog run!" .. >Really. No . Really? Because while I love this dog - I hate this dog. He jumps, climbs, digs or just simply OPENS my freaking gates. He is collar smart and check cord smart. He's nuts and he's an @SS! I have tried to sell him 3 times and my husband bawls around "no you can't get rid of him!" Really? My dumb dogs just point the birds and go about their way. Not this dog. He thinks he has to find birds in the next county. I just wanted a hunting companion, not a dog I had to buy a horse to keep up with..

The dog I speak of is sired by the dog in my signature. The dog in my signature is smart, but happy enough to stay in his fence run and WAIT for me to TAKE him hunting.

UGH.

RayGubernat
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3308
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:47 am
Location: Central DE

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by RayGubernat » Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:37 pm

QuailHollow wrote:I have a smart dog. And for the record, I HATE smart dogs. He runs like nothing else I have, he works the field like no other.. a couple of judges who have seen him said to me - "Boy I'd love to have that dog!" "I love to watch that dog run!" .. >Really. No . Really? Because while I love this dog - I hate this dog. He jumps, climbs, digs or just simply OPENS my freaking gates. He is collar smart and check cord smart. He's nuts and he's an @SS! I have tried to sell him 3 times and my husband bawls around "no you can't get rid of him!" Really? My dumb dogs just point the birds and go about their way. Not this dog. He thinks he has to find birds in the next county. I just wanted a hunting companion, not a dog I had to buy a horse to keep up with..

The dog I speak of is sired by the dog in my signature. The dog in my signature is smart, but happy enough to stay in his fence run and WAIT for me to TAKE him hunting.

UGH.
Samantha -

That most definitely sounds like the kind of dog that you can have soem serious fun with. I have often said that if a dog does not give you the 'ol fazoole every once in a while...it ain't enough dog.

Pointers RUN my dear. Long, hard and far. THAT is what they are made for in this man's opinion. That is why I make very good friends with my dogs when they are puppies.

I checked your website and I have to say that your Drake dog is bred pretty nice. I am not a huge fan of Elhew, but Jefferson threw some real nice dogs. You have a good bit of major league Miller breeding in there as well as some Silverwood down the bottom. As far as all age running dogs go, they don't come much more powerful than Silverwood and Miller bred dogs run as welkl as anything out there. I had the pleasure to watch Grouse Wing Jam go a few times. Although Jam was a walking shooting dog, he certainly had the stuff to be a horseback shooting dog.

I would expect a dog like that to run a lick and look pretty good doing it. Have fun with him.

RayG

User avatar
birddogger
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:09 pm
Location: Bunker Hill, IL.

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by birddogger » Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:31 pm

[quote="ezzy333"]I have read where most dogs are pretty much alike in intelligence. Since dogs don't really thik it would be hard to judge. They do say the standard poodle tends to be the smartest dog but overall dogs do not rank high on the scale. What we do breed for is instinct and I think that is what you are describing more than intelligence. Instinct and biddability just might be misread as intelligence.

Ezzy[/quot
I agree with this, but as always, it is JMO. I don't believe dogs have the ability to think as we know it. Some dogs are easier to train and pick up on things faster than others, but I have a problem with calling it intelligence.

Charlie
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way

User avatar
Stoneface
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1050
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:33 pm
Location: Terrell/Quinlan, Texas

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by Stoneface » Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:39 pm

ezzy333 wrote:I have read where most dogs are pretty much alike in intelligence. Since dogs don't really thik it would be hard to judge. They do say the standard poodle tends to be the smartest dog but overall dogs do not rank high on the scale. What we do breed for is instinct and I think that is what you are describing more than intelligence. Instinct and biddability just might be misread as intelligence.

Ezzy
Where did you hear this at? Is it your opinion or something you heard? I'm not trying to jump on what you said, but would like to know more of why you think that?
www.PoetryShootingClub.com
www.StonefaceKennels.com
----------
"I have found it far more pleasuable pursuing the game with a fine dog and enjoying his performance than the actual shooting." -Robert G. Wehle

User avatar
Stoneface
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1050
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:33 pm
Location: Terrell/Quinlan, Texas

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by Stoneface » Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:45 pm

I would consider that point of view, but when I see things like this video I just can't accept that dogs can't think, figure or solve. Haven't you ever seen a dog that figured out how to open a cupboard or lift the lid to a toilet with his nose to get a drink? I don't think dogs feel guilt, remourse, compassion or jealousy, but I really believe dogs can think, figure and deduce.

Also, I think you can weed out the smarter dogs in a bunch because they'll figure things out faster. Dogs that learn how to walk across a cattle guard by stepping on the pipes, figure out to backtrack and tack a bridge if you're on opposing sides of a creek, puppies who quickly make it through a split-rail gate or dogs that learn to climb a fence like a ladder. Some dogs just never pick any of this stuff up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fB98xk5TOkw
www.PoetryShootingClub.com
www.StonefaceKennels.com
----------
"I have found it far more pleasuable pursuing the game with a fine dog and enjoying his performance than the actual shooting." -Robert G. Wehle

User avatar
Highland Gundogs
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 118
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:51 pm
Location: Southern Utah

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by Highland Gundogs » Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:34 pm

RayGubernat wrote:A truly smart dog can be an unbelievable PIA to train and keep trained.

A dog that is both smart and soft of disposition can be an absolute nightmare to train. You have to be at the absolute top of your game or the dog will work you over like you wouldn't believe and if you make a mistake in training, you may not be able to get the dog back. Soft dogs are NOT for inexperienced trainers, IMO, especially if you are attempting to mold any type of competitive dog.

If the dog is truly smart, they will constantly be trying to anticipate you and what it is you want them to do. If they are also soft, when you try to enforce your will, they will often resist, resent and avoid if they perceive that the pressure is too much.

Pointers as a breed are on the dumb side of the dog world. That is actually fine by me. A dumb dog might just do what it is taught, the way it is taught and keep on doing it that way. The mensa candidate dog might decide to invent their own way to find, point and take game. That almost always turns out badly. A dumb dog might be so dumb it does not know when to quit. That really works for me. The dumb dog will wait for me because it knows I will get there eventually and when i do, they get the bird. The smart dog will eventually figure that they have waited long enough and begin to free lance the bird thing.

There is a difference, to me, between intelligence and biddability. Biddability implies both intelligence AND a willingness to do what the master wishes.

RayG
Excellent post.Thank you sir.

User avatar
Stoneface
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1050
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:33 pm
Location: Terrell/Quinlan, Texas

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by Stoneface » Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:44 pm

Ray, biddability, according to Webster is, "easily led, taught, or controlled" and a couple of examples are "The children became less biddable as they grew older" and "the elderly widower was one of the more biddable and cooperative residents at the nursing home".

According to dictionary.com, biddability is, "willing to do what is asked; obedient; tractable; docile: a biddable child".

I'm just trying to make the point that intelligence isn't really a component of biddability. According to these definition, if a dog is less cooperative because of high intelligence, as you said in your post, then his intelligence actually reduces his biddability. The way I've always thought of it is that a dog's willingness to cooperate is his biddability, but that intelligence can actually increase or decrease his biddability.
www.PoetryShootingClub.com
www.StonefaceKennels.com
----------
"I have found it far more pleasuable pursuing the game with a fine dog and enjoying his performance than the actual shooting." -Robert G. Wehle

User avatar
birddogger
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:09 pm
Location: Bunker Hill, IL.

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by birddogger » Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:48 pm

For every example of perceived intelligence, I can give an example of just the opposite. For instance, how many times have you seen a dog turn their water pale over or paw the water out of it when they are hot? If they can think, figure and deduce, why do they not realize that they are going to need that water to drink? I know in the age we are living in, it is not popular or PC to think animals are not intelligent, but for every seemingly smart thing they do, they will do something seemingly stupid. Dogs are amazing animals and can do some amazing things, but IMO, it is instinct, repetition, training, etc.

Charlie
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way

User avatar
Chief_dog
Rank: Master Hunter
Posts: 257
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:55 am
Location: Oklahoma

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by Chief_dog » Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:16 am

Very nice post Ray! I agree 100%.

RayGubernat
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3308
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:47 am
Location: Central DE

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:33 am

StoneFace wrote:Ray, biddability, according to Webster is, "easily led, taught, or controlled" and a couple of examples are "The children became less biddable as they grew older" and "the elderly widower was one of the more biddable and cooperative residents at the nursing home".

According to dictionary.com, biddability is, "willing to do what is asked; obedient; tractable; docile: a biddable child".

I'm just trying to make the point that intelligence isn't really a component of biddability. According to these definition, if a dog is less cooperative because of high intelligence, as you said in your post, then his intelligence actually reduces his biddability. The way I've always thought of it is that a dog's willingness to cooperate is his biddability, but that intelligence can actually increase or decrease his biddability.
Point taken. I donot dispute your position. I do find that a certain level of intelligence in the dog will allow it to be trained faster and with less pressure. If it also posesses a good measure of biddability, that makes the process go even smoother and faster. I guess it would be appropriate to say that both qualities are desirable in a bird dog...to some degree.

If the dog is smart enough to quickly pick up on what you are trying to teach and also posesses the willingness to be taught, that is a dog that will train relatively easily, with relatively low pressure methods. If the dog is too smart, it will eventually try to do it a "better" way.

I suppose if a dog is too biddable, that can cause problems as well, such as the dog trying so hard to please that it undoes its training. i don't really know about that.

I have had bold, independent, field trial bred pointers all my life. I can honestly say I have never had a dog that was TOO biddable, so that is a "problem" that I have not had to deal with. I am pretty pleased if they listen to me half of the time. :lol: :lol:

RayG

User avatar
PntrRookie
GDF Junkie
Posts: 1870
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:41 pm
Location: SE Wisconsin

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by PntrRookie » Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:51 am

RayGubernat wrote:A truly smart dog can be an unbelievable PIA to train and keep trained...If the dog is truly smart, they will constantly be trying to anticipate you and what it is you want them to do...The mensa candidate dog might decide to invent their own way to find, point and take game...The smart dog will eventually figure that they have waited long enough and begin to free lance the bird thing.

There is a difference, to me, between intelligence and biddability. Biddability implies both intelligence AND a willingness to do what the master wishes. RayG
Ding, ding, ding...thx Ray, that is what I was trying to get across above. See four-legged example to the right ---> But when she does get it right, dang is it nice...

Birddogz
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1488
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:18 pm
Location: Garrison, ND

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by Birddogz » Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:01 pm

PntrRookie wrote:
RayGubernat wrote:A truly smart dog can be an unbelievable PIA to train and keep trained...If the dog is truly smart, they will constantly be trying to anticipate you and what it is you want them to do...The mensa candidate dog might decide to invent their own way to find, point and take game...The smart dog will eventually figure that they have waited long enough and begin to free lance the bird thing.

There is a difference, to me, between intelligence and biddability. Biddability implies both intelligence AND a willingness to do what the master wishes. RayG
Ding, ding, ding...thx Ray, that is what I was trying to get across above. See four-legged example to the right ---> But when she does get it right, dang is it nice...
The best is a truly smart dog that loves you. They use all of their intelligence to help you fill your game bag. That is the way to roll. :wink:
Speak kindly to me, beloved master. Revel in my unconditional love, and give me every minute that you can spare, for my time with you is short.

User avatar
Stoneface
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1050
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:33 pm
Location: Terrell/Quinlan, Texas

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by Stoneface » Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:20 am

RayGubernat wrote:I can honestly say I have never had a dog that was TOO biddable, so that is a "problem" that I have not had to deal with. I am pretty pleased if they listen to me half of the time. :lol: :lol:
I think we, and half the rest of the board, are in that same boat. :D
www.PoetryShootingClub.com
www.StonefaceKennels.com
----------
"I have found it far more pleasuable pursuing the game with a fine dog and enjoying his performance than the actual shooting." -Robert G. Wehle

jasonw99
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 163
Joined: Fri May 30, 2008 7:34 pm

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by jasonw99 » Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:17 pm

the German ones :)

User avatar
birddog1968
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3043
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:40 pm
Location: Wherever I may roam

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by birddog1968 » Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:45 pm

Theres only one "Pointer" and they ain't from the hinterland 8)
The second kick from a mule is of very little educational value - from Wing and Shot.

Hunters Pale Rider

Hunters Branch Jalapeno

User avatar
Stoneface
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1050
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:33 pm
Location: Terrell/Quinlan, Texas

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by Stoneface » Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:31 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Since dogs don't really thik it would be hard to judge.
I was on my way to class today, thinking about what you guys have been saying and I think I may have it. I think you guys mean that a dog doesn't "ponder". For example, a dog doesn't think about what's for dinner tomorrow, if it's going to rain today or contemplate life. Am I anywhere close? When I was talking about intelligence I meant a dog who can put "two and two" together faster than his kennel mate and gets the concept of an exercise or action like walking across a cattle guard, whoaing, steadying up on point so the bird won't flush, etc.

Am I hot or cold?
www.PoetryShootingClub.com
www.StonefaceKennels.com
----------
"I have found it far more pleasuable pursuing the game with a fine dog and enjoying his performance than the actual shooting." -Robert G. Wehle

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16625
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:42 pm

StoneFace wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:Since dogs don't really thik it would be hard to judge.
I was on my way to class today, thinking about what you guys have been saying and I think I may have it. I think you guys mean that a dog doesn't "ponder". For example, a dog doesn't think about what's for dinner tomorrow, if it's going to rain today or contemplate life. Am I anywhere close? When I was talking about intelligence I meant a dog who can put "two and two" together faster than his kennel mate and gets the concept of an exercise or action like walking across a cattle guard, whoaing, steadying up on point so the bird won't flush, etc.

Am I hot or cold?
Not sure about the temp but I haven't seen the dog that can put 2 and 2 together. I do think some dogs catch on quicker than others to some things and the same dogs will be slower at something else. And another thing keeps coming to mind as I read the different posts, growing up on a farm it was always a challenge to handle the hogs and I think the main reason was tht they are smarter than the cows, horses and birds. It has been an interesting discusion but in all honesty I am not sure which is smarter, or that it is even anything you would desire if you could tell. Have you ever thought why it is easier to train a bird dog to run and hunt but a lot easier to train a terrier to go to ground and catch a varmit. I still think 99.9% is instinct and opportunity and has little to do with intelligence.

Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

User avatar
Stoneface
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1050
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:33 pm
Location: Terrell/Quinlan, Texas

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by Stoneface » Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:30 pm

I know what you're saying about instinct being why a terrier will go to ground while a birddogs goes to field, and totally agree that that's instinct. The dog has been bred to have instincts AND be passionate for it's respective task. Passion is the same reason my brother can set for hours and practice free-throws, but I have absolutely no desire to improve my game. On the other hand, I'll walk my dogs for hours just because I enjoy watching them work, but Stryker doesn't find a lick of beauty in birddogs.

Now, that passion is removed from intelligence. I set next to two guys in my computer class. One has a strong interest in video games and that's all he ever does, but he's as dumb as a rock. The other is a computer geek. Nicest guy in the world, but spends all his time messing with his computer and is one sharp cookie. My point is, intelligence is an independent variable.

How would you explain the difference in two dogs of the same type who figure things out on totally different levels? One picks things up almost instantly and the other takes days and days and days of working with?
www.PoetryShootingClub.com
www.StonefaceKennels.com
----------
"I have found it far more pleasuable pursuing the game with a fine dog and enjoying his performance than the actual shooting." -Robert G. Wehle

User avatar
ezzy333
GDF Junkie
Posts: 16625
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 3:14 pm
Location: Dixon IL

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by ezzy333 » Fri Oct 14, 2011 8:54 pm

You probably answered your own question when you said you learn what you are interested in. Put a bone on the other side of the cattle gate for one dog and not the other and it will learn to walk aross it first. Not any smarter but just better motivated.

Ezzy
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=144
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=207

It's not how many breaths you have taken but how many times it has been taken away!

Has anyone noticed common sense isn't very common anymore.

User avatar
Stoneface
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1050
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:33 pm
Location: Terrell/Quinlan, Texas

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by Stoneface » Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:54 pm

But, put a bone on the other side for both dogs and one will still figure it out quicker. Put a bird on the other side and the stupid one breaks his leg! :o
www.PoetryShootingClub.com
www.StonefaceKennels.com
----------
"I have found it far more pleasuable pursuing the game with a fine dog and enjoying his performance than the actual shooting." -Robert G. Wehle

User avatar
Stoneface
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1050
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:33 pm
Location: Terrell/Quinlan, Texas

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by Stoneface » Fri Oct 14, 2011 9:55 pm

Maybe this is one of those, "some guys like Fords, some like Chevys" kind of thing. The wonderful thing about America is that we can agree to disagree and not worry about the Gustapo.
www.PoetryShootingClub.com
www.StonefaceKennels.com
----------
"I have found it far more pleasuable pursuing the game with a fine dog and enjoying his performance than the actual shooting." -Robert G. Wehle

User avatar
birddogger
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:09 pm
Location: Bunker Hill, IL.

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by birddogger » Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:36 pm

I am always hearing people comment on how smart those deer, squirrels, wild turkeys and the most intellingence creature in the world, the almighty dolphin are. There is a lot of intellingence out there in the wild, according to a lot of people. If it makes people feel better to think of their dogs as little four legged Einsteins [not talking about you Stoneface] so be it.

Stoneface, I think you are pretty much understanding what I am talking about when you say dogs can't ponder, etc. although, I wouldn't use the term "putting 2 and 2 together when talking about dogs. This has been discussed in the past and it seems that a few of us are in the minority with our views on the topic or are being misunderstood. That being said, some dogs are truly amazing animals. :D

Charlie
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way

User avatar
Ron R
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1067
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:51 pm
Location: Bethalto, IL

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by Ron R » Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:10 am

ezzy333 wrote:I have read where most dogs are pretty much alike in intelligence.
Al, you surely don't believe that do you? I do think that a dog's individual personality can be falsely percieved as intelligence. I do know that some dogs pick up training alot faster than others and some put forth way more effort to understand what's being asked of it. Instead of misusing the term intelligent or smart I will say that "the dog's not stupid" but I will call a deserving dog smart.
birddogger wrote:I wouldn't use the term "putting 2 and 2 together when talking about dogs.

I don't think that there is anything wrong with using that term in regards to training birddogs.

Sorry for being so late to the conversation.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=2786

Live a good, honorable life. Then when you get older and think back, you'll enjoy it a second time.

User avatar
Ruffshooter
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2946
Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 7:28 pm
Location: Maine

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by Ruffshooter » Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:12 am

When you have a dog that points a grouse, then circles around out of the scent cone and puts the bird between you and he, I would say that is intelligence. You only see that on occasion. I don't think intelligence has a measurable, wide spread, difference in the dog world. So on that it is noticeable.
The best part of training is seeing the light come on in your little prot'eg'e.

Rick

User avatar
birddog1968
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3043
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:40 pm
Location: Wherever I may roam

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by birddog1968 » Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:00 pm

How does my dog know I'm going hunting while i sit in the chair contemplating if i should go the next day or not :?: :lol:

Dunno if i'd accuse an animal that is a master of reading body language as not being able to put 2 and 2 together.....
The second kick from a mule is of very little educational value - from Wing and Shot.

Hunters Pale Rider

Hunters Branch Jalapeno

User avatar
Chukar12
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2051
Joined: Tue May 18, 2010 5:20 pm
Location: Northern California

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by Chukar12 » Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:30 pm

It's an interesting argument because what is intelligence? In a field that we are more familiar how often do we see those with a high IQ and not a lick of common sense? It makes it hard eneough to determine "intelligence" in people. I for one have to believe that there are some varying degrees of ability to learn, or cypher in dogs, but man o man how difficult is it to sort out from their instinct and genetics? For instance, I have a friend and guiding partner who is a devoted lab guy, so much so that he has even employed a pointing lab for guided chukar hunts. (works well at below 50 degrees). He has an older lab that can do parlor tricks to beat the band, get beer from the fridge, "save" someone in the swimming pool by dragging their floating raft to the side, etc...Claims it is the smartest dog he has ever owned as it learns so quickly.

For the record, I believe he is right. However, his arguments go overboard. I believe it is easy to teach a lab to fetch things like beers or people, they have been bred to heighten those instincts...it is their genetics. To argue my point I trained a Brittany to fetch beers from the firdge, it took weeks, not hours, with a clicker, and it was after the dog was force fetched. As I hate to lose arguments..I then asked him to train this Einstein lab to make 400 yard casts, hold its range, and stand birds steady to WSF. Of course it cannot...and the Britt can, which is smarter?

Many people do not agree with me, but I don't believe dogs want to please us per se' I think that their instinct is to do things that controls our behavior and emotion in a manner that causes us to react in a way that makes things easiest for them. Sometimes that is a nice cuddle, maybe its retrieving a bird, walking at heel, ... whatever. I believe that intelligence will forever be a Coke and Pepsi or Ginger and Mary Anne argument. A dog that adapts to the needs of an individual human being the best will be the "smartest" In my experience, (very broad brush here) the dogs I am happiest with in maturity are the most stubborn, and hardest to break, they invent a million ways to handle the hunt and birds the way they see fit. When they do succumb their independence shows up in style, and bird sense in the field, they seem to find game when others cannot.

User avatar
Ruffshooter
GDF Junkie
Posts: 2946
Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 7:28 pm
Location: Maine

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by Ruffshooter » Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:45 pm

I VOTE MARRY ANNE: Hands down. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
The best part of training is seeing the light come on in your little prot'eg'e.

Rick

User avatar
Ron R
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1067
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:51 pm
Location: Bethalto, IL

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by Ron R » Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:24 pm

birddog1968 wrote:Dunno if i'd accuse an animal that is a master of reading body language as not being able to put 2 and 2 together.....
Here is something that sounds stupid but it makes sense to me. I think that we put off a different scent with some of our different emotions and the dog reads off the scent more so than the body laguage. Some examples would be at a trial at the break away if I'm tense, anxious, or flustered my dogs feed off that and don't perform as they would if I were relaxed, calm, and confident. Another would be for some reason they know when they are going to the vet, it turns my bold outgoing dogs into scared kittens that don't want to get out of the dogbox. I should add that I'm always in a bad mood when I have to take my dogs to the vet because it always costs a small fortune and I hate it. They know when we are mad, happy, excited (like when going hunting), sad and I believe they feed off our scent moreso than body langauge.
Chukar12 wrote:Many people do not agree with me, but I don't believe dogs want to please us per se' I think that their instinct is to do things that controls our behavior and emotion in a manner that causes us to react in a way that makes things easiest for them.

I can agree with that and the smarter dogs figuar it out much quicker.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=2786

Live a good, honorable life. Then when you get older and think back, you'll enjoy it a second time.

User avatar
birddogger
GDF Junkie
Posts: 3776
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:09 pm
Location: Bunker Hill, IL.

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by birddogger » Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:56 pm

I can agree with that and the smarter dogs figuar it out much quicker.
Even though I use the words smart or dumb, they are more of a figure of speach for me. I think the dogs with the better intstincts figure it out quicker. I also believe they pickup on your emotions probably partly through scent and partly through body language. As I said earlier, they are amazing animals, I just don't believe they have the ability to deduce or put 2 and 2 together.

Charlie
If you think you can or if you think you can't, you are right either way

User avatar
Ron R
Rank: 5X Champion
Posts: 1067
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:51 pm
Location: Bethalto, IL

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by Ron R » Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:09 pm

birddogger wrote: I just don't believe they have the ability to deduce or put 2 and 2 together
This is a human communications problem, not a dog problem. 2 and 2 for me is a synonym to "gettin' it", or "puttin' it together", and so on. What do I know, I'm just a city boy.
http://www.perfectpedigrees.com/4genview.php?id=2786

Live a good, honorable life. Then when you get older and think back, you'll enjoy it a second time.

User avatar
Wenaha
Rank: Senior Hunter
Posts: 183
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:25 pm

Re: Which line of Pointer do you think is the most intelligent?

Post by Wenaha » Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:54 pm

RayGubernat wrote:
"A truly smart dog can be an unbelievable PIA to train and keep trained...If the dog is truly smart, they will constantly be trying to anticipate you and what it is you want them to do...The mensa candidate dog might decide to invent their own way to find, point and take game...The smart dog will eventually figure that they have waited long enough and begin to free lance the bird thing."

I agree, Ray that it easier to screw up a smart dog. You need to be SMARTER than the dog to train him. But a smart dog will learn from experience and will have much more 'bird sense' after a few years hunting. I see no reason not to have an intelligent dogs... but then, I keep setters.
Life is short
Quit your job.
Turn off the TV.
Go outside and play.

My Blog: Living with Bird Dogs

Post Reply