Cover Dog Question

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ROTTnBRITT
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Cover Dog Question

Post by ROTTnBRITT » Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:40 am

What is it about pointers and setters that allow them to dominate the cover dog scene?

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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by southwayno » Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:45 am

speed and style

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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by shags » Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:49 am

They have tails :lol:

And the sheer numbers of them in entries might have something to do with it.

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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by Birddogz » Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:17 pm

Always wondered that too. They certainly don't dominate the hunting seen any where I have ever lived with the exception of KS. Certainly not in the northern grouse woods. GSPs and Britts FAR out number them. I know 2 Grouse guides that hunt Ruffs for a living, and they have always owned Britts and GSPs.
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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by RayGubernat » Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:31 pm

Rott -

In the cover dog world there is a good deal of tradition and in this part of the country, much of that tradition dictates that ruffed grouse and English setters are the ideal. The typical wining cover dog setter is on the small side, with incredible quickness, agility and foot speed. The typical winning cover dog hits its birds hard, from good distance and has breathtaking style on game....high on both ends That is what folks who judge these events want to see so that is what wins most often.

Dogs without tails are at a disadvantage from the style deparment and the tradition department. Dogs that don't have shaggy coats (pointers) are at a disadvantage from the tradition department and to be honest, a setter on an intense point, high on both ends with feathers streaming from legs and tail... is pretty hard not to like, even if you are a diehard pointer afficionado like myself.

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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by ROTTnBRITT » Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:49 pm

Interesting.....

Thanks!

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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by midwestfisherman » Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:00 pm

One exception as far as cover dogs go is 5X CH and 2X R-U CH Wanbli. Wanbli is a Brittany owned by Ken DeLong here in Michigan. Ken just retire her from competition at the age of 9 after winning the Brittany Club Grouse Championship here in MI this past week.

Here's a post with pictures and a brief description of Wanbli's career that Ken posted the other day on the Cover Dog Message Board. http://members3.boardhost.com/coverdog/ ... 68259.html
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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by DonF » Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:04 pm

midwestfisherman wrote:One exception as far as cover dogs go is 5X CH and 2X R-U CH Wanbli. Wanbli is a Brittany owned by Ken DeLong here in Michigan. Ken just retire her from competition at the age of 9 after winning the Brittany Club Grouse Championship here in MI this past week.

Here's a post with pictures and a brief description of Wanbli's career that Ken posted the other day on the Cover Dog Message Board. http://members3.boardhost.com/coverdog/ ... 68259.html
I just read the magazine and it claims that trials are held all over the country. I have never heard of on in Oregon or Washington. Would like to go to one if I knew where they are. I don't suppose the N.W. Field Trial council puts these things on.
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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by Wenaha » Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:26 pm

I have attended one cover dog trial - the Michigan Woodcock Championship. The dog were all setters or pointers.

I know of no cover dog trials West of the Mississippi River.
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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by mudhunter » Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:41 pm

they are all AF trials and open to any AF registered pointing breed so run what you got! I would say they are dominated by pointers and setters for the same reason that all AF trials are dominated by pointers and Setters, they are very, very hard to beat, especially pointers!

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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by Winchey » Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:48 pm

RayGubernat wrote:Rott -

In the cover dog world there is a good deal of tradition and in this part of the country, much of that tradition dictates that ruffed grouse and English setters are the ideal. The typical wining cover dog setter is on the small side, with incredible quickness, agility and foot speed. The typical winning cover dog hits its birds hard, from good distance and has breathtaking style on game....high on both ends That is what folks who judge these events want to see so that is what wins most often.

Dogs without tails are at a disadvantage from the style deparment and the tradition department. Dogs that don't have shaggy coats (pointers) are at a disadvantage from the tradition department and to be honest, a setter on an intense point, high on both ends with feathers streaming from legs and tail... is pretty hard not to like, even if you are a diehard pointer afficionado like myself.

RayG
Not sure pointers are at a disadvantage anymore. I think I read they are now winning more coverdog events per capita then setters. I watched Wild Apple Jack and Chasehills Little Bud tear up the grouse woods last weekend. I am biased towards setters but those two pointers were wicked.

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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by jasonw99 » Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:54 pm

RayGubernat wrote:Rott -

In the cover dog world there is a good deal of tradition and in this part of the country, much of that tradition dictates that ruffed grouse and English setters are the ideal. The typical wining cover dog setter is on the small side, with incredible quickness, agility and foot speed. The typical winning cover dog hits its birds hard, from good distance and has breathtaking style on game....high on both ends That is what folks who judge these events want to see so that is what wins most often.

Dogs without tails are at a disadvantage from the style deparment and the tradition department. Dogs that don't have shaggy coats (pointers) are at a disadvantage from the tradition department and to be honest, a setter on an intense point, high on both ends with feathers streaming from legs and tail... is pretty hard not to like, even if you are a diehard pointer afficionado like myself.

RayG
very well said. it's about tradition and breed bias. I personally think a setter on point is ugly but that's my opinion :).

a short tail you have a huge disadvantage. there are other games to play where you aren't penalized for tail length so why would I waste my time and money on something I have a handicap right from the start

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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by AHGSP » Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:17 pm

Or you could run in this:
http://www.oakridgepointers.com/images/ ... r_Dog1.pdf

AKC Coverdog Trial at Marienville, that will likely be dominated by Continentals.........
Seems like the excuse's have run out.......
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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by nj gsp » Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:08 pm

So, compared to my rescue setter:
RayGubernat wrote:The typical winning cover dog setter is on the small side
Nope
with incredible quickness, agility and foot speed.
Nope
The typical winning cover dog hits its birds hard, from good distance and has breathtaking style on game....high on both ends
Nope, nope, and nope
That is what folks who judge these events want to see so that is what wins most often.
This maybe explains why someone let this dog roll & abandoned him. Doesn't explain why he was neglected, beaten, and otherwise abused.

Tell you what though - I've always been a shorthair guy, but other than the downsides of the long hair and feathers here in the northeast (Sand burrs, beggar's ticks, burrs in general) I've become quite a fan of the breed. Having this setter of mine has led me to become interested in learning about cover dog trials. I've been struggling to find a definitive explanation on the web that tells me how they work, how dogs are judged, or how spectator friendly they are. I would be very interested in going to see a few cover dog trials in the northeast. Guess I should subscribe to American Field!

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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by ezzy333 » Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:16 pm

Think I read some place a while back that the winning breed is in proportion to the entries by breed. Don't have a clue if that is right but it makes sense.

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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by Grange » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:29 pm

RayGubernat wrote: Dogs that don't have shaggy coats (pointers) are at a disadvantage from the tradition department

RayG
I don't by that. I've seen enough cover dog trials where pointers have done well and have been rewarded with a placement.
I know of no cover dog trials West of the Mississippi River.
The Minnesota Cover Dog Championship is being run as I type this.

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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by PntrRookie » Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:32 am

Grange wrote:
RayGubernat wrote: Dogs that don't have shaggy coats (pointers) are at a disadvantage from the tradition department RayG
I don't by that. I've seen enough cover dog trials where pointers have done well and have been rewarded with a placement.
I think Ray was emphasizing the "Tradition" part and the setters are considered the "good ol boys".

Grange wrote:
I know of no cover dog trials West of the Mississippi River.
The Minnesota Cover Dog Championship is being run as I type this.
Where the Mississippi ends and where this trial is being run you could still say it is east of the river. Splittin hairs there...JMO

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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by Grange » Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:36 am

PntrRookie wrote:I don't by that. I've seen enough cover dog trials where pointers have done well and have been rewarded with a placement.
I think Ray was emphasizing the "Tradition" part and the setters are considered the "good ol boys". [/quote]

Claiming tradition is one thing, but saying pointers are at a disadvantage is another.

PntrRookie wrote: Where the Mississippi ends and where this trial is being run you could still say it is east of the river. Splittin hairs there...JMO
You got me there.
Last edited by Grange on Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:59 am

ezzy333 wrote:Think I read some place a while back that the winning breed is in proportion to the entries by breed. Don't have a clue if that is right but it makes sense.

Ezzy

In NSTRA that used to be true. The winning percentages of pointers, setters, GSPs and Britts fairly closely tracked with their entry percentages for two years that I ran the numbers from what appeared in the Field. I did that several yeas ago.

I cannot say what it is now.

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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by DonF » Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:26 am

If a closed Grouse Trial was held by any one of the continental breeds, would you get enough entry's to actually put on a trial of value? Ya gotta wonder.
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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:31 am

Grange wrote:
PntrRookie wrote:I don't by that. I've seen enough cover dog trials where pointers have done well and have been rewarded with a placement.
I think Ray was emphasizing the "Tradition" part and the setters are considered the "good ol boys".
Claiming tradition is one thing, but saying pointers are at a disadvantage is another.

PntrRookie wrote:The Minnesota Cover Dog Championship is being run as I type this.
Where the Mississippi ends and where this trial is being run you could still say it is east of the river. Splittin hairs there...JMO[/quote]

You got me there.[/quote]


Rookie - If the "traditional" grouse dog is a sprightly, lithe, english setter with quick feet that has as much snap, crackle and pop as a truckload of Rice Krispies, then the "traditional" pointer, which is big, ong, leggy, rangy and fast is at a disadvantage, especially when being judged by someone who is a traditionalist. We all have our preferences and judging IS a subjective endeavor. One's decisions cannot help but be colored by their preferences.

I routinely compete with my pointers in AKC trials, most of which are put on by GSP or GWP clubs. To place, I know that my dogs and I have to do a job that leaves no doubt or question in the judges' minds. The funny thing is that, more often than not, AKC judges who run pointers in American Field trials seem to be the ones who demand the most from me and my dogs. I also have found that, to win and take points...my dog has to not just win it...the dog has to win it HARD. This is not bias...it is personal preference that colors what we see and what we value. There is no way to completely avoid that.


That is just the way that it is. It makes me work harder.

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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by PntrRookie » Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:36 am

RayGubernat wrote:Rookie - If the "traditional" grouse dog is a sprightly, lithe, english setter with quick feet that has as much snap, crackle and pop as a truckload of Rice Krispies, then the "traditional" pointer, which is big, ong, leggy, rangy and fast is at a disadvantage, especially when being judged by someone who is a traditionalist. We all have our preferences and judging IS a subjective endeavor. One's decisions cannot help but be colored by their preferences
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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by Grange » Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:49 am

RayGubernat wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:Think I read some place a while back that the winning breed is in proportion to the entries by breed. Don't have a clue if that is right but it makes sense.

Ezzy

In NSTRA that used to be true. The winning percentages of pointers, setters, GSPs and Britts fairly closely tracked with their entry percentages for two years that I ran the numbers from what appeared in the Field. I did that several yeas ago.

I cannot say what it is now.

RayG
From about 2007-2008 I kept track of the number and breeds of dogs entered in cover dog trials and the placements for all the trials posted on the Foster Award site. This site didn't have all the trials included and some of the trial information was incomplete so I limited myself to only trials where the running order with breed designations and results were posted. From the information I used GSP's had the highest percentage of placements at 25%, there there were only 4 dogs entered. Pointers were just under 1% higher placement than setters and brittanies came in 1% behind the setters. Setters outnumbered Pointers by close to a 2:1 margin and brittanies and GSP's were a distant 3rd and 4th respectively.

I would have like to kept more up to date information, but the Foster Award went through changes and the updates became too lacking to continue.

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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by rschmeider » Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:59 pm

AHGSP wrote:Or you could run in this:
http://www.oakridgepointers.com/images/ ... r_Dog1.pdf

AKC Coverdog Trial at Marienville, that will likely be dominated by Continentals.........
Seems like the excuse's have run out.......
Bruce, I'll be ther...Bright eyed and shorttailed :D ...Hope you longtials aint afraid to drop some tail gates :lol: :lol: :lol: By the judgeing, I no every dog will get a fair shake...Grouse are up in this area too.... It's Going to be a good time..... If anyone coming out of state PM me i'll point you in the right direction to run birds... You can get three day tag in pa.... I was told many times by AF /cover people no hunting birds on or near the grounds...Please respect that cause they have been helping out oakridge alot...

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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by nj gsp » Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:43 pm

I don't suppose one of you experienced cover dog trial people could help me point me towards a resource where I can learn more about cover dog trials? I am intrigued!

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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by Grange » Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:53 pm

nj gsp wrote:I don't suppose one of you experienced cover dog trial people could help me point me towards a resource where I can learn more about cover dog trials? I am intrigued!
This message board is a good place to start.

http://members3.boardhost.com/coverdog/

You could also look at the website below, but it isn't updated as often as it used to be.

http://www.fosteraward.com/

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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by JKP » Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:01 pm

What is it about pointers and setters that allow them to dominate the cover dog scene?
They don't have to retrieve ducks when its snowing :lol: :lol:

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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by rschmeider » Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:20 am

Cover dog question??? Two different braces/wildbirds
Dog1: has 4 finds/+1 bird work...................... Dog 2: has 1 find/bird work +1
Range 125 yd casts....................................Range 350 yd casts
Style is a 10 ...........................................Style is a 10
Has a good race ...................................... Has a better race less bird work
What dog takes the win????

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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by PntrRookie » Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:38 am

rschmeider wrote:Cover dog question??? Two different braces/wildbirds
Dog1: has 4 finds/+1 bird work...................... Dog 2: has 1 find/bird work +1
Range 125 yd casts....................................Range 350 yd casts
Style is a 10 ...........................................Style is a 10
Has a good race ...................................... Has a better race less bird work
What dog takes the win????
I would be interested in the race to separate them. But...how did they apply the race, did they hit objectives, was there a lot of trail running, did they stay to the front, how much scouting was needed (yes they scout in coverdog trials), how was the tail carriage, how did they "pound or float" across the ground. On their finds what was the situation, limb find, close find, covey find, runner, etc. What was the weather like when they ran, hot windy, cold, wet? how did they respond to the handler. How strong did they FINISH the hour/half hour. As you can see, to ME, there is a LOT to consider when judging a trial. Bird numbers do count, but after one or two I am looking at the WHOLE package. Long tail, short tail...JUST KIDDING

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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by Grange » Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:43 am

PntrRookie wrote:
rschmeider wrote:Cover dog question??? Two different braces/wildbirds
Dog1: has 4 finds/+1 bird work...................... Dog 2: has 1 find/bird work +1
Range 125 yd casts....................................Range 350 yd casts
Style is a 10 ...........................................Style is a 10
Has a good race ...................................... Has a better race less bird work
What dog takes the win????
I would be interested in the race to separate them. But...how did they apply the race, did they hit objectives, was there a lot of trail running, did they stay to the front, how much scouting was needed (yes they scout in coverdog trials), how was the tail carriage, how did they "pound or float" across the ground. On their finds what was the situation, limb find, close find, covey find, runner, etc. What was the weather like when they ran, hot windy, cold, wet? how did they respond to the handler. How strong did they FINISH the hour/half hour. As you can see, to ME, there is a LOT to consider when judging a trial. Bird numbers do count, but after one or two I am looking at the WHOLE package. Long tail, short tail...JUST KIDDING

I agree with PntrRookie. There are way too many variables to answer the question.

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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by Wenaha » Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:47 am

Grange wrote:
RayGubernat wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:Think I read some place a while back that the winning breed is in proportion to the entries by breed. Don't have a clue if that is right but it makes sense.

Ezzy

In NSTRA that used to be true. The winning percentages of pointers, setters, GSPs and Britts fairly closely tracked with their entry percentages for two years that I ran the numbers from what appeared in the Field. I did that several yeas ago.

I cannot say what it is now.

RayG
From about 2007-2008 I kept track of the number and breeds of dogs entered in cover dog trials and the placements for all the trials posted on the Foster Award site. This site didn't have all the trials included and some of the trial information was incomplete so I limited myself to only trials where the running order with breed designations and results were posted. From the information I used GSP's had the highest percentage of placements at 25%, there there were only 4 dogs entered. Pointers were just under 1% higher placement than setters and brittanies came in 1% behind the setters. Setters outnumbered Pointers by close to a 2:1 margin and brittanies and GSP's were a distant 3rd and 4th respectively.

I would have like to kept more up to date information, but the Foster Award went through changes and the updates became too lacking to continue.
These calculations can be misleading and misinterpreted. Here's why:

Let's suppose that we have a cover trial with 50 dogs entered. There are to be three placements available. 40 of the dogs are setters and 10 are pointers. A setter is named first, and another setter named second. A pointer is used for third. In this scenario 10% of pointers are placed, but only 5% of setters are placed. But setters win at a 2:1 ratio over pointers.

It has been my experience that - based on annual recaps published in the American Field - that pointers and setters win in approximate proportion to the the numbers of pointers and setters entered. This number may vary some with the region - setters do better in the West and Northeast, while pointers do better in the South.
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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by Grange » Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:27 am

Wenaha wrote:
These calculations can be misleading and misinterpreted. Here's why:

Let's suppose that we have a cover trial with 50 dogs entered. There are to be three placements available. 40 of the dogs are setters and 10 are pointers. A setter is named first, and another setter named second. A pointer is used for third. In this scenario 10% of pointers are placed, but only 5% of setters are placed. But setters win at a 2:1 ratio over pointers.

It has been my experience that - based on annual recaps published in the American Field - that pointers and setters win in approximate proportion to the the numbers of pointers and setters entered. This number may vary some with the region - setters do better in the West and Northeast, while pointers do better in the South.
The placement percentages are based on the individual breed entry numbers and placements. I divided the number of dogs from one breed by the number of placements of that breed.

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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by Wenaha » Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:39 am

Grange wrote:
Wenaha wrote:
These calculations can be misleading and misinterpreted. Here's why:

Let's suppose that we have a cover trial with 50 dogs entered. There are to be three placements available. 40 of the dogs are setters and 10 are pointers. A setter is named first, and another setter named second. A pointer is used for third. In this scenario 10% of pointers are placed, but only 5% of setters are placed. But setters win at a 2:1 ratio over pointers.

It has been my experience that - based on annual recaps published in the American Field - that pointers and setters win in approximate proportion to the the numbers of pointers and setters entered. This number may vary some with the region - setters do better in the West and Northeast, while pointers do better in the South.
The placement percentages are based on the individual breed entry numbers and placements. I divided the number of dogs from one breed by the number of placements of that breed.
Exactly my point. My calculations divided the number of placements by a breed by the number of entries for that breed to get a percentage of placements WITHIN THAT BREED. An extreme example is a trial where one GSP (for example) is entered and placed. In this scenario 100% of GSPs had a win. Meaningless to the overall results, really.
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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by Birddogz » Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:13 pm

Why do pointers and setters get dominated in NAVHDA? Same reason, they don't enter as much.
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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by Grange » Fri Oct 14, 2011 12:53 pm

Wenaha wrote:
Grange wrote:
Wenaha wrote:
These calculations can be misleading and misinterpreted. Here's why:

Let's suppose that we have a cover trial with 50 dogs entered. There are to be three placements available. 40 of the dogs are setters and 10 are pointers. A setter is named first, and another setter named second. A pointer is used for third. In this scenario 10% of pointers are placed, but only 5% of setters are placed. But setters win at a 2:1 ratio over pointers.

It has been my experience that - based on annual recaps published in the American Field - that pointers and setters win in approximate proportion to the the numbers of pointers and setters entered. This number may vary some with the region - setters do better in the West and Northeast, while pointers do better in the South.
The placement percentages are based on the individual breed entry numbers and placements. I divided the number of dogs from one breed by the number of placements of that breed.
Exactly my point. My calculations divided the number of placements by a breed by the number of entries for that breed to get a percentage of placements WITHIN THAT BREED. An extreme example is a trial where one GSP (for example) is entered and placed. In this scenario 100% of GSPs had a win. Meaningless to the overall results, really.
I understand what you are saying and agree when you compare one trial or a small number of dogs, but when you start comparing 700-800 setter and 350-400 pointers entered in multiple trials over the course of a couple seasons the averages become more reliable. In all those trials I looked at I think there were 4 GSP's and 11 brittanies. One GSP and 1 brittany placed if my memory is correct. That sample size is too small to draw any real conclusions, but with setters and pointers you can start to draw conclusions. That is why I mentioned that GSP's and brittanies were far outnumbered by setters and pointers.

Time to go hunting.

jasonw99
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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by jasonw99 » Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:15 pm

I still believe if I ran a gsp and my Gsp ran better he would still lose.

the reason there aren't many gsps in coverdog is because there are better games to play without having to overcome breed bias don't know how that perception will be overcome.

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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by mudhunter » Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:26 pm

jasonw99 wrote:I still believe if I ran a gsp and my Gsp ran better he would still lose.

the reason there aren't many gsps in coverdog is because there are better games to play without having to overcome breed bias don't know how that perception will be overcome.

Are you basing your belief on first hand experience? Have you seen actual performances by continental breeds in a cover dog even get slighted?

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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by Garrison » Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:48 pm

[quote="jasonw99"]I still believe if I ran a gsp and my Gsp ran better he would still lose.



Only one way to find out.
“Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.”
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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by slistoe » Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:20 pm

nj gsp wrote: I've been struggling to find a definitive explanation on the web that tells me how they work, how dogs are judged, or how spectator friendly they are. I would be very interested in going to see a few cover dog trials in the northeast. Guess I should subscribe to American Field!
Why don't you just go to a trial?

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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by slistoe » Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:29 pm

jasonw99 wrote:I still believe if I ran a gsp and my Gsp ran better he would still lose.

the reason there aren't many gsps in coverdog is because there are better games to play without having to overcome breed bias don't know how that perception will be overcome.
I don't have experience with Cover Dog scene, but I have ran against the longtails on their turf in the prairies. I detected no breed bias. The best dogs won - sometimes in a slightly different order than I had them, but the good dogs were there and the rest weren't because they didn't get it done.

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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by Garrison » Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:30 pm

Birddogz wrote:Why do pointers and setters get dominated in NAVHDA? Same reason, they don't enter as much.
How come you never see Cover Dog Guys complaining about the NAVHDA short tail bias? Maybe they just realize that a breed that has been developed generation after generation for versatile work is probably better suited for versatile work.

I have hunted over a lot of different pointing and flushing breeds and none were the very best at every type of hunting. But it didn't take away my enjoyment of watching them work with their unique style and physical attributes. My uncles griffons will hunt birds all day take to the water or track a shot deer like nobodies business. Our past setters would probably rather stay in the truck and watch his dogs break the ice, but his dogs sure wouldn't move through the woods like a top cover dog that was bred to do it.

If a pro has a string of 30 dogs bred and trained for a certain style of hunting and out of those 30 he has 2 that become champions he is doing well, you would have to be crazy to think that the only thing from keeping another dog from winning is his tail or lack of. If another breed did as well as setters and pointers at this particular game you could bet there would be trucks full of them.

Just my opinion, and I don't even field trial because I already know that my dog is the best one I got.
“Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.”
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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by jasonw99 » Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:36 pm

because navhda is not a field trial it's a hunt test. big difference.

I don't enter my Gsp because like I said , why play a game u have a handicap in when there are soo many other ones to play.

one day if I get bored and have a dog that doesn't run very big maybe I will run him in the local cover dog trials ;)

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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by nj gsp » Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:10 pm

slistoe wrote:
nj gsp wrote: I've been struggling to find a definitive explanation on the web that tells me how they work, how dogs are judged, or how spectator friendly they are. I would be very interested in going to see a few cover dog trials in the northeast. Guess I should subscribe to American Field!
Why don't you just go to a trial?
That's the plan! It's just been a little challenging with my wife's health problems to plan any trips. That's why I'm hoping to learn as much as I can while I'm waiting for the opportunity to go.

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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by pointshootretrieve » Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:52 am

Winchey wrote:
RayGubernat wrote:Rott -

In the cover dog world there is a good deal of tradition and in this part of the country, much of that tradition dictates that ruffed grouse and English setters are the ideal. The typical wining cover dog setter is on the small side, with incredible quickness, agility and foot speed. The typical winning cover dog hits its birds hard, from good distance and has breathtaking style on game....high on both ends That is what folks who judge these events want to see so that is what wins most often.

Dogs without tails are at a disadvantage from the style deparment and the tradition department. Dogs that don't have shaggy coats (pointers) are at a disadvantage from the tradition department and to be honest, a setter on an intense point, high on both ends with feathers streaming from legs and tail... is pretty hard not to like, even if you are a diehard pointer afficionado like myself.

RayG
Not sure pointers are at a disadvantage anymore. I think I read they are now winning more coverdog events per capita then setters. I watched Wild Apple Jack and Chasehills Little Bud tear up the grouse woods last weekend. I am biased towards setters but those two pointers were wicked.

They are wicked I know because I have watched them work and also own offspring of Bennie, a breeding with Sunkhaze and Bear rivers Poco. I myself ran a couple of coverdog trials with her and won once and placed 2nd, each time Joe Dahl and I were neck and neck he ran a dog called Magic Misty (setter). I am surprised we have not met Winchey?. There really is no comparison in the grouse woods, I have hunted and trained wirehairs for many years, I now hunt with some close friends that own Wirehairs and one of them has never had his dog on anything but grouse and woodcock, not ONE planted bird. This dog is very proficient for a wirehair at finding and pointing grouse but there is no comparison when put on the ground with my Pointer who is nearly half his dogs age. As he says " she doesn't leave a single leaf unturned anywhere ". She is fast and covers the ground well and loves what she does and it show's in her work, she also knows how to nail grouse down like nobody's business. She can be heady and take some liberties when it comes to ranging but she is also very biddable and intelligent.


This is her in Dakota after a 2 hour run and about 15 points on different pheasant, we shot our limit in that run just before we started losing the sun.

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Re: Cover Dog Question

Post by Winchey » Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:46 am

I am just getting into it, I went down to the spring trial near Prospect this year to watch a friend run Bear River Shea. I also picked up a new prospect this Summer as my Munsterlander just isn't going to get it done. I will continue to run him in Gun-Dog stakes though.

Heres the new fella, 4.5 Months pointing a couple Ruffies.

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Look forward to seeing you out. We just started a spring trial in McAdam, 2 minutes from the Vanceborough border, it's a good time, hope to see you there.

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