All Age Dogs

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Vision
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All Age Dogs

Post by Vision » Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:53 am

I have been thinking about posting this for awhile and I just read something under the events section that prompted me to finally do it.

I have studied the history of field trials so I understand the original intent of the meaning of All Age. So my question is this.

How did All Age end up meaning extreme range? And a follow up question, since when has it become passe for All Age dogs to only be seen on point?

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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by DonF » Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:29 am

I have wondered the same thinf! Would love to hear an explanation of this.
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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by ultracarry » Wed Oct 12, 2011 12:39 pm

I think it depends on the venue. AKC all age doesn't have to be out of sight the entire time but should hunt independently to the front going out of sight kinda depends on the terrain/cover. If you run a dog out at ca city you can see them 8-900 Yds pretty easily which a judge would probably consider all age or a shooting dog for those hour trials. I think it gives the dog more lee way to range and find birds but still be to the front if they want to take a line to either side for a couple hundred yards. I guess it depends on who you run under and where.

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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by Vision » Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:09 pm

ultracarry wrote:I think it depends on the venue. AKC all age doesn't have to be out of sight the entire time but should hunt independently to the front going out of sight kinda depends on the terrain/cover. If you run a dog out at ca city you can see them 8-900 Yds pretty easily which a judge would probably consider all age or a shooting dog for those hour trials. I think it gives the dog more lee way to range and find birds but still be to the front if they want to take a line to either side for a couple hundred yards. I guess it depends on who you run under and where.
I am curious how "ALL-AGE" meaning the age or training level of the dog ended up being a distance requirement at field trials

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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:36 pm

This is probably a question for the Old Timers but I thought you were an Old Timer? :lol: :P

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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by RayGubernat » Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:32 pm

Can't really answer for AKC but for American Field trials, there really was no change in the all age performance that was expected. There became a difference with the advent of Shooting dog stakes, which originally were supposed to reward a more controlled ground applicationand a more biddable dog that was much closer to the concept of a "gentleman's hunting companion" . The funny thing is that, at least in my area, the ground application expected of a class shooting dog has expanded considerably and the availability of true all age grounds has diminished so dramatically that it can be pretty difficult to discriminate between an all age dog and a big running shooting dog.

From the relatively few AKC gundog stakes I have entered in and watched, the same sort of "drawing together" seems to be happening between gundog stake s and All age. The all age dogs seem to be coming in more with less scouting and hacking and the Gundogs seem to be pushing out there with the handlers getting louder and louder trying to keep a hold on their charges.

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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by Vision » Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:51 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:This is probably a question for the Old Timers but I thought you were an Old Timer? :lol: :P
I went to my first field trial in 1976. Does that make me an old timer?

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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by Vision » Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:53 pm

RayGubernat wrote:Can't really answer for AKC but for American Field trials, there really was no change in the all age performance that was expected. There became a difference with the advent of Shooting dog stakes, which originally were supposed to reward a more controlled ground applicationand a more biddable dog that was much closer to the concept of a "gentleman's hunting companion" . The funny thing is that, at least in my area, the ground application expected of a class shooting dog has expanded considerably and the availability of true all age grounds has diminished so dramatically that it can be pretty difficult to discriminate between an all age dog and a big running shooting dog.

From the relatively few AKC gundog stakes I have entered in and watched, the same sort of "drawing together" seems to be happening between gundog stake s and All age. The all age dogs seem to be coming in more with less scouting and hacking and the Gundogs seem to be pushing out there with the handlers getting louder and louder trying to keep a hold on their charges.

RayG
Thanks Ray. That is a good explanation.

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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by Birddog3412 » Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:46 pm

Vision wrote:
Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:This is probably a question for the Old Timers but I thought you were an Old Timer? :lol: :P
I went to my first field trial in 1976. Does that make me an old timer?
Well yes :mrgreen: I wasn't born yet and my parents had only been married a year!!

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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by DonF » Wed Oct 12, 2011 9:35 pm

This is from the book, "Field Trials" x William F. Brown


The Amesian Standard

The dog under consideration must have and display great bird sense. He must show perfect work on both covey's and singles. He must be able quickly to determine between foot and body scent. He must use his brain, eyes and nose to the fullest advantage and hunt the likely places on the course. He must possess speed, range, style, character, courage and stamina-and good maners always. He must hunt the birds and not handler hunt the dog. No line or path runner is exceptable. He must be well broken and the better his manners the more clearly he proves his sound training. Should he lose a little in class as expressed in extream speed and range, he can make up for this, under fair judgment, in a single piece of superior bird work, or in a sustained demonstration of general behavior. He must be bold snappy and sprited. His range must be to the front or to the side but never behind. He must be regualrly and habitually pleasingly governable (tractable) and must know when to turn and keep his handler's course in view, and at all times keep uppermost in his mind the finding and pointing of birds for his handler.


Read it carefully!
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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by brad27 » Wed Oct 12, 2011 10:17 pm

Should he lose a little in class as expressed in extream speed and range, he can make up for this, under fair judgment, in a single piece of superior bird work, or in a sustained demonstration of general behavior.
So as long as those big running dogs have manners........ All's good.

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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by Dashin Gun Dogs » Thu Oct 13, 2011 3:45 am

if you aint big running and making the right moves, you better point your birds high and tight and handle well. One or the other is acceptable.

Field trialing should be about finding the dogs with the strongest expressor of desired genes. As in wolves, only the strong and Alpha personalties get to breed in mother nature. This is man's way of trying to compensate where we tinker around. The problem with man is that we are flawed and our opinions change.
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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by Vision » Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:45 am

[quote="DonF"]This is from the book, "Field Trials" x William F. Brown


The Amesian Standard

He must hunt the birds and not handler hunt the dog. /quote]


I read it carefully and noticed this gem. Which brings up another question, when was scouting(handler hunting the dog) allowed?

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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by brad27 » Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:25 am

Vision wrote:
DonF wrote:This is from the book, "Field Trials" x William F. Brown


The Amesian Standard

He must hunt the birds and not handler hunt the dog. /quote]


I read it carefully and noticed this gem. Which brings up another question, when was scouting(handler hunting the dog) allowed?
That's not the way I read it. It does not say hunt FOR the dog. it says hunt the dog. as in the dog must hunt for birds on its own without looking to the handler for direction.

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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:11 am

Guys -

Just so we are clear...

The Amesian standard DOES NOT reflect the requirements for an American Field Open All Age dog. It much more closely reflects the requirements for a "gentleman's shooting dog".

Yet, the Amesian standard is one of the reasons why the National Championship is so highly prized. Let me explain...

To qualify for the National Championship, the dogs must win two selected one hour (or longer) all age trials. These trials are won by dogs that flat out run into the next county in seach of birds, and yet still manage to stay in touch with their handler, somehow. The open all age dog , to be successful, must posess EXTREME independence in its search, a bottomless reservoir of grit and determination, no knowledge of the meaning of the word "Quit", a wide open ground application and an almost total disregard for anything other than the seeking and finding of birds.

To claim the title of national champion, the same dog that displayed these extreme qualities sufficiently well to win over a field of similarly minded competiors, must now hunt in a manner consistent with the Amesian standard, FOR THREE HOURS. In other words, the free spirited, bold, independent all age dog must be able to dial down that ambitious ground application and hunt happily for its handler.

In other words, the dog has to be able to change gears..and yet still perform to the very highest level...for three solid hours under the microscope of judgement.

Virtual perfection, in the field, for three solid hours. Consider that most field trial dogs can't manage perfection in the field for even a half hour.

That, to me, is what makes the National champion special and truly the best of the best, that year.

RayG

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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by DonF » Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:32 am

brad27 wrote:
Vision wrote:
DonF wrote:This is from the book, "Field Trials" x William F. Brown


The Amesian Standard

He must hunt the birds and not handler hunt the dog. /quote]


I read it carefully and noticed this gem. Which brings up another question, when was scouting(handler hunting the dog) allowed?
That's not the way I read it. It does not say hunt FOR the dog. it says hunt the dog. as in the dog must hunt for birds on its own without looking to the handler for direction.
You are adding words to the document to suit what you want. How do you read this,"He musy be regularly and habitually pleasingly governable (tractable) and must know when to turn and keep his handler's course in view,......". I think the Standard was written well enough that one has to substitute words to create another type of dog. The sad part is, the Standard has been re-inturped for a long time. I used to know who all gathered, maybe it's in the book, but one was, Hobart Ames. Hobart Ames never field triled but love the dogs so much he opened his plantation for the trial and saw to it the trial would be there forever. I think with that condition it was left to the University of Tennesse.

Such an embarissing document! Just read Rays post and I can find nowhere it says it was for a gentlemans shooting dog. But I also think that that is exactly the type of dogs in that era. All Age. All may enter without regard for age. Shooting dog was created later for dogs that weren't running as what the new AA were doing. It is convient that to step aside the Standard, simply make a new stake for it that never existed prior to it being writter.

Now The All Age dog per Field Trials. Rather than write the whole thing down here, I'll just write a few passages. I suspect that that would be creating it to suit my view, not at all, it will be word for word.

"he must however, confine his casts to reasonable distence not beyond the control (by voice or whistle signal) of his handler of officiating judges".

"he must not continue casts made at angles to the course so far as to leave his handler's control by voice or whistle signal".

I suspect that would make a scouts only duty to look for a dog on point, nothing else. The handler must still be able to handle the dog.

"He must not. 1, get out of hand.......................................".

That seems perty clear.
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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:53 am

brad27 wrote:
Should he lose a little in class as expressed in extream speed and range, he can make up for this, under fair judgment, in a single piece of superior bird work, or in a sustained demonstration of general behavior.
So as long as those big running dogs have manners........ All's good.
Brad27 -

It is a sometimes unrecognized fact that the bigger running dogs, to be successful, have to have a faily significant level of "good manners".

Consider a dog that runs out of sight and, while out of sight, finds and points a bird or covey. That dog has to stand there, high, tight and handsome until the handler discovers the dog and makes their way to the dog on point. Similarly, the dog that runs out of sight of its handler has to make a positive effort to stay in touch with the handler who can no longer see nor hear it. A dog that runs out of sight and still stays in touch with you...wants to.

In field trials there is an adage that is very, very true. The saying goes: " You can win with any kind of dog...except a lost dog."

RayG

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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by brad27 » Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:05 am

You are adding words to the document to suit what you want.
no i wasn't. i was responding to vision's implied adding of a word with the scouting question.

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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by DonF » Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:48 am

Vision wrote: I read it carefully and noticed this gem. Which brings up another question, when was scouting(handler hunting the dog) allowed?

I don't know at what point scouting was allowed, maybe always but, if the scout handles the dog to the benefit of the handler or for any reason, wouldn't that be double handling? Double handling is against the rules but over looked. It appears from the discription of the All Age dog that double handling could be excepted but the second handler must be the judge. I'm not sure if that's true or not nor why a judge would want to handle some one's dog. It is the job of the judge to evalute dog's, it is the handler's job to show the judge his dog.

Biggest problem seem's to be the average hunter's inability to see why the trial dog are allowed run as they run. I never ran AA stakes but have ridden a lot of them. I became very disalussioned when I found dogs placing and winning AA stakes that were gone from view for half the brace and more. How can a judge actually evaluate a preformance based on half or less of the brace? Gun Dog stakes made much more sence to me than the AA stakes. I realize that breeding's tend to lean toward the average so to raise the average it's best to breed the best dogs but, what really make's the best dog?

I read in there somewhere where to president of the All American Field Trial Club said they did not have the intention of breeding a dog of no value other than the winning of field trials. I think in some cases they are comming awfully close to it.
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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by tn red » Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:45 am

DonF wrote:[quote="Vision I read it carefully and noticed this gem. Which brings up another question, when was scouting(handler hunting the dog) allowed?

I don't know at what point scouting was allowed, maybe always but, if the scout handles the dog to the benefit of the handler or for any reason, wouldn't that be double handling? Double handling is against the rules but over looked. It appears from the discription of the All Age dog that double handling could be excepted but the second handler must be the judge. I'm not sure if that's true or not nor why a judge would want to handle some one's dog. It is the job of the judge to evalute dog's, it is the handler's job to show the judge his dog.

Biggest problem seem's to be the average hunter's inability to see why the trial dog are allowed run as they run. I never ran AA stakes but have ridden a lot of them. I became very disalussioned when I found dogs placing and winning AA stakes that were gone from view for half the brace and more. How can a judge actually evaluate a preformance based on half or less of the brace? Gun Dog stakes made much more sence to me than the AA stakes. I realize that breeding's tend to lean toward the average so to raise the average it's best to breed the best dogs but, what really make's the best dog?

I read in there somewhere where to president of the All American Field Trial Club said they did not have the intention of breeding a dog of no value other than the winning of field trials. I think in some cases they are comming awfully close to it.[/quote]
Around here lots of hunting dogs out of AA dogs .I believe a true AA dog is a rare thing.What kinda range is too big for a SD?

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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by Buckeye_V » Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:52 am

What kinda range is too big for a SD?

That is a good question TN RED
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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by Chukar12 » Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:46 pm

Don't you all believe that geography plays a HUGE role in the defining a range by distance? When I watch a shooting dog, they handle largely by sight, they seek the proper objectives and choose their gound application based on the ground before them keying almost entirely on the direction of their handler...by sight alone. They are compelled to return close enough to have contact with handler regardless of geography. While the best are clearly confident they rarely display the athleticism and or drive to continue seeking for an hour and beyond at a pace and distance that is as pleasing to the eye as an all-age dog. As a matter of fact, my shooting/gun dogs pace themselves well enough to hunt all day in chukar country. My bigger running dog doesn't operate that way, but for a couple of hours he will give you all he can...

A true all age dog isnt to be confused with a run off, but the nature of the beast clearly lends itself to the occasional disconnect between handler and dog. They hang on the edge, content to follow by sight and sound, seeking objectives that challenge their stamina, they appear to long for a handler of similar desire, physically and mentally capable of getting to them and the game that is sought. They appear to perform best when there is a horse to match their speed. (this is not to say that a dog cannot adjust for the foot, but again, at the risk of fracturing sensibilities it isn't a dog for a guy on foot trying to keep up while smoking an unfiltered Camel and eating a jelly donut) If you are prepared for an all-age performance and it is dog work that you want to see, it is my opinion that there are darned few things in the pointing dog world more impressive. If you aren't and your view of an individual dog is one to match your particular needs or desires then all-age dog may be foreign or frustrating to you.

I believe their desire shows up in style as much as it does range, their is an x factor of intensity that can be seen in the most successful dogs. As for the question of whether it is best for the breed? The professional trainers I know believe that they have more "trainable" dogs in a pool today than they did in years past. They attribute some of the ease in breaking to advances in technology for sure, but almost universally agree that they see more point and desire in the masses than they may have in years past. The role that AA dogs play for the average hunter is in mitigating drag on the breed by breeding mid or short range dogs exclusively to their kind and through evolution looking up one day to an entire breed of boot polishers. (see some of the show dog drag)

I believe that the all age dog that we as the masses worry about becoming the norm are so few and far between in the gene pool or any given litter that the worry about is is over played. Dogs will fall into the hands of those who cannot use and handle them because of their genetics, I am sure that happens. However, it is my opinion that more often a poor choice was made for purpose to begin with followed by a human lifestyle and training ability that wasn't meant for the dog and breed to begin with whether that be a shooting dog or an all age dog.

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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:55 pm

I really think the Brits at least bred a lot of dogs that were almost worthless for several years in the past but have gradually come to their senses and are coming back to what a Brit is supposed to be. But we continue to have people that breed anything if there is a chanc it might win.

Trials are fun and do serve a purpose when the breeders use them for the betterment of the breed, but a lot of breeders have lost their way in the effort to win at any cost. Sadly, that is exactly what the average hunter does not want. As a result we see people bringing in dogs from Europe like the French Brit, the DD and the DK and the biggest reason is they do not run as big.

I hope that someday we can get back to looking at a breed standard and use it as the guide line of what we are breeding for instead of strictly the field trial guidelines we use today. Using the breed standard and breeding the very best type of field dogs each breed was originally bred for instead of how fast they can run and how far they can range would bring each of our breeds back to where we could judge on bird finding ability and characteristics the common hunter wants in a hunting dog and companion.

Trial dogs produce trial dogs and hunting dogs produce good hunting dogs. I much prefer a gun dog or shooting dog over an AA dog of today unless I want to run AA stakes. But I just don't see the point of it. Kind of like lawn mower races.

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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by Chukar12 » Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:57 pm

Ezzy,

I think you get your wish. I am sure you have measured the number of AA competition dogs v the number of Gun Dog competition dogs in the Britt and GSP world?

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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by Chukar12 » Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:03 pm

...in fact,
I know virtually every all-age Brittany that runs in Wa, Ca, Nv, Id and Oregon regularly, and off of the top of my head I believe there is only 1 (that wins regularly) that I would say it would be impossible to hunt off of foot after.

....horrible about line casting
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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by highntight » Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:26 pm

Ray wrote,
Guys -

Just so we are clear...

The Amesian standard DOES NOT reflect the requirements for an American Field Open All Age dog. It much more closely reflects the requirements for a "gentleman's shooting dog".

Yet, the Amesian standard is one of the reasons why the National Championship is so highly prized. Let me explain...

To qualify for the National Championship, the dogs must win two selected one hour (or longer) all age trials. These trials are won by dogs that flat out run into the next county in seach of birds, and yet still manage to stay in touch with their handler, somehow. The open all age dog , to be successful, must posess EXTREME independence in its search, a bottomless reservoir of grit and determination, no knowledge of the meaning of the word "Quit", a wide open ground application and an almost total disregard for anything other than the seeking and finding of birds.

To claim the title of national champion, the same dog that displayed these extreme qualities sufficiently well to win over a field of similarly minded competiors, must now hunt in a manner consistent with the Amesian standard, FOR THREE HOURS. In other words, the free spirited, bold, independent all age dog must be able to dial down that ambitious ground application and hunt happily for its handler.

In other words, the dog has to be able to change gears..and yet still perform to the very highest level...for three solid hours under the microscope of judgement.

Virtual perfection, in the field, for three solid hours. Consider that most field trial dogs can't manage perfection in the field for even a half hour.

That, to me, is what makes the National champion special and truly the best of the best, that year.

RayG
Ray, To me, you hit the nail on the head.

For this reason, i hope they always hold the Nat'l AA at Ames. A dog that can win on the prairie, then come down and wind around those soybean fields and point birds, proves himself/herself. To me, it shows they are biddable and not a one way dog. Some are good at one or the other, but not both. A dog that can do both, is the one i want blood out of. Just my .02

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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:05 pm

Guys -

You can take the biggest running horseback all age dog in the country and with a little work, hunt that dog on foot. No BS. That ain't the point. The difference between an all age dog and ashooting dog is HOW it runs and hunts...not how far. How far is dictated by the available grounds. That also ain't the point.

The reason the true prairie type all age dog is valued so highly is because, to shine in that it has the maximum amount of independence, the maximum amount of bottom, the maximum amount of desire to find birds and it has to be honest enough to stand its birds until the handler gets there...even if that takes all afternoon. Added to that the dog has to have enough cooperative sprit to come back to the handler when it really does not have to... because it is already over the hill and gone.

A dog with those qualities will be able to pass SOME of that on to its progeny. Usually, the offspring will not posess the qualities of the parents in the same degree, but rather it will be gifted those qualities in lesser amounts. Sooooo, if you wanted to produce shooting dogs with a fair degree of consistency, it woyuld be smart to use the right all age dog as either sire or dam. If you wanted to produce walking shooting dogs with some consistency, it would be smart to use the right horseback shooting dog as sire or dam. If you want to produce consistent gundogs, it would be smart to use the right walking shooting dog or horseback shooting dog as sire or dam.

When I say "the right" dog, I mean that the right dog is one that will pass along a large share of what YOU, the breeder, wants in your pups with not as much of some of the other qualities that YOU as the breeder do NOT want to see in your pups. Obviously it is not anywhere near to being an exact science. Even with two top shelf parents, often only one or two pups in a litter will reach the heights that their parents did. It is EXTREMELY rare for every pup in a litter to achieve the same level of succes that their parents did.

About the only thing you can count on is that the pups will be a mix of the qualities of the sire and the dam and you will be lucky if most of the litter are near as talented as mom and dad unless you really do your homework.

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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by Ricky Ticky Shorthairs » Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:21 pm

Right on Ray and Chuckar 12. Good stuff guys. Great info!

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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by DonF » Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:15 pm

While I certainly don't completely disagree with any of you, the fact is there is a written standard, "The Amesian Standard". and it can apply to both AA and SD. But there exits no other written standard that I know of to determine the difference in the SD and the AA dog. So if I am to believe that there is a standard for the shooting dog, where do I find one for the AA dog. In fact the SD class was developed to acomadate the lesser running dog. In doing that the standard that was written for a bird dog was thrown out for a certain class of dogs. Someone tell me where I can find a written defination for the AA dog as I'm told exists for the SD? It seems prudent to me if your going to give a dog an upper status, there should be written somewhere what is to be expected of the upper class dog. I'd buy that! But tell me where it can be found, don't manufacture one now.

This same thing happens to a lesser degree in AKC. They have a standard that applys to each format. Where to problem come from there's is individuales that do have a good history behind them teaching new judges how to interpet the rules. Point in fact, only the judge has the perogitive of interpeting them. The people that do this do so to get new judges reading in to rules what they want the to say. When I first started a very well known trainer and handler tried to convince me that a derby stake is judged to an all age standard, you won't find that anywhere in the AKC Rules and Standard Procedures.
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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by Wenaha » Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:23 pm

An AA dog has to handle and finish. Many do not finish, some do not handle well enough to win a placement.

You can win a lot of AA trials with a dog that stays 400 yards to the front, handles, runs with style, hunts, and finds birds while displaying some manners.

I finally have one that I think will win.
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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by Chukar12 » Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:36 pm

I may have myself a bit confused Don. Are you saying that the lack of a written standard has presented a measurable problem beginning at some point in time during the evolution of field trials? The AKC does have a written difference and I rarely see an instance where judges make controversial placements based on a misconception of what an AA or Shooting/Gun Dog is?

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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by DonF » Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:47 pm

The lack of a written standard certainly causes confussion about the difference between an AA dog and a SD. I talked with Erick Mauck some years ago and he told me the secrete to Sunrise was that he was really a shooting dog. Well how can that happen if he doesn't conform to the percived AA dog? I think myself that the biggest problem is that thee AA dog and SD were declared two different dogs and no discription to define the AA dog. As said above, a 400yd dog can actually win an AA trial. If that is so, what is the difference in the two? One has a standard and one doesn't.

It's a simple thing, where is the standard for an AA dog? Doesn't seem to exist.
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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by Chukar12 » Thu Oct 13, 2011 4:56 pm

I certainly can see your point, but the akc does have a standard, its broad because it needs to be. Geography and topography play a major role in the details of a dogs run. It is my belief that a good handler can show a shooting dog on many AA courses and win. However, most of the time when I ride a stake I don't have a hard time detrmining the difference between the placing all-age dogs and those that ain't making it...
Please understand that I am asking this with due respect, do you have trouble with it Don?

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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by Chukar12 » Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:08 pm

The AKC Differences...
A
Gun Dog must give a finished performance and must
be under its handler’s control at all times. It must
handle kindly, with a minimum of noise and hacking
by the handler. A Gun Dog must show a keen desire
to hunt, must have a bold and attractive style of running,
and must demonstrate not only intelligence in
quartering and in seeking objectives but also the ability
to find game. The dog must hunt for its handler at
all times at a suitable Gun Dog range, and should
show or check in front of its handler frequently. It
must cover adequate ground but never range out of
sight for a length of time that would detract from
its usefulness as a practical hunting dog. The dog
must locate game, must point staunchly, and must be
steady to wing and shot. Intelligent use of the wind
and terrain in locating game, accurate nose, and style
and intensity on point, are essential.
All-Age and Limited All-Age Stakes. An
All-Age Dog must give a finished performance and
must be under reasonable control of its handler.
It must show a keen desire to hunt, must have a
bold and attractive style of running, and must show
independence in hunting. It must range well out in a
forward moving pattern, seeking the most promising
objectives, so as to locate any game on the course.
Excessive line-casting and avoiding cover must be
penalized. The dog must demonstrate its independent
judgment in hunting the course, but must show
a willingness to handle when called upon. The dog
must find game, must point staunchly, and must be
steady to wing and shot. Intelligent use of the wind
and terrain in locating game, accurate nose, and style
and intensity on point, are essential.

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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by DonF » Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:30 pm

Chukar12 wrote:I certainly can see your point, but the akc does have a standard, its broad because it needs to be. Geography and topography play a major role in the details of a dogs run. It is my belief that a good handler can show a shooting dog on many AA courses and win. However, most of the time when I ride a stake I don't have a hard time determining the difference between the placing all-age dogs and those that ain't making it...
Please understand that I am asking this with due respect, do you have trouble with it Don?
No I don't have a problem with it at all. I certainly respect your opinions, usually I agree with them. But because this was brought up, I felt inclined to enter my opinion. I do not do AF and never have. I have seen a few SD's in the field hunting, they were very nice but I also suspect the average hunter would be at first apalled and later amazed. I'd just like to know, what distingushes the SD from the AA dog? It must be somewhere or judges start making up their own rules. Then you have a very nice dog and what one judge calls a stellar proformance another calls unworthy.
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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by Chukar12 » Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:35 pm

I think in some limited instances Don you are correct...they make up a standard, sorta like a strike zone...
thanks for the discussion

best regards,
Joe

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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by DonF » Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:52 pm

Chukar12 wrote:I think in some limited instances Don you are correct...they make up a standard, sorta like a strike zone...
thanks for the discussion

best regards,
Joe
Ain't that the truth! :D The rules you posted above, if someone doesn't know where they come from, AKC Rules and Standard Procedures. And they are debated all the time also. Sometimes even with written rules, people like to read in what they want.

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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by RayGubernat » Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:29 pm

DonF -

I came across a descripion of the ideal all age performance in a dog that waswritten by John O'Niell and Coolier Smith I believe. It is contained in the AFTCA's Guidelines booklet and I understand it is also resident on the Strideaway website. The guideline booklet also contained a description of the ideal shooting dog performance. Unfortunately, the guideline booklet is not available on the web, or at least I am not aware of such. I tried to access Strideaway but it did not come up. Site might be down. dunno.

Regardless of what is written, a lot of this stuff is pretty plastic in reality, but heck, you knew that.

Hope this is of some use.

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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by JKP » Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:31 pm

The dog under consideration must have and display great bird sense. He must show perfect work on both covey's and singles. He must be able quickly to determine between foot and body scent. He must use his brain, eyes and nose to the fullest advantage and hunt the likely places on the course. He must possess speed, range, style, character, courage and stamina-and good maners always. He must hunt the birds and not handler hunt the dog. No line or path runner is exceptable. He must be well broken and the better his manners the more clearly he proves his sound training. Should he lose a little in class as expressed in extream speed and range, he can make up for this, under fair judgment, in a single piece of superior bird work, or in a sustained demonstration of general behavior. He must be bold snappy and sprited. His range must be to the front or to the side but never behind. He must be regualrly and habitually pleasingly governable (tractable) and must know when to turn and keep his handler's course in view, and at all times keep uppermost in his mind the finding and pointing of birds for his handler.
If a dog can not be seen and be under judgement, how can the manner of the find be judged?....or if the dog is a "line runner"?....or if the dog is seeking likely cover?...using the wind intelligently?? etc. I guess my question is how do dogs out of sight for protracted periods of time win over dogs that can be seen and judged to have these qualities? (Guess this is where I'll be told I don't understand much :lol: ).

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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by tn red » Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:42 pm


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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:11 pm

It's kinda like everything else when humans are involved it's how those humans interpertation of the rules are applied.
Same goes for conformation it's all how the judge interperts those standards.

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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by Chukar12 » Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:14 pm

JKP
you certainly cannot judge what you cannot see, but a dog that takes a ridgeline drops off it and appears on the next 5 minutes later is to the front is doing the right thing in 30 minutes an hour or three you will see enough to know . It isn't hard for you to determine if this dog is superior to that one on a given day with yout experience is it? Judging a trial dog is no different

Now if you insist on being confronted on the basis of ignorance here goes ..put those plodding German attack animals away and go ride a full weekend at an aa championship.you pick your5 top dogs if two of them don't place I send you a bottle of scotch and a fine cigar.

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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:30 pm

So if you don't or can't watch a dog go on point does that mean some one put him on point or dropped a bird in front of him.If it takes you 7 minutes to ride to a dog on point wouldn't that prove they are broke or would you rather watch a dog go on point get off your horse & work the bird? I know which dog I would rather own or breed to but that's why there are different stakes,different venues,etc. :)

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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by DonF » Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:42 pm

RayGubernat wrote:DonF -

I came across a descripion of the ideal all age performance in a dog that waswritten by John O'Niell and Coolier Smith I believe. It is contained in the AFTCA's Guidelines booklet and I understand it is also resident on the Strideaway website. The guideline booklet also contained a description of the ideal shooting dog performance. Unfortunately, the guideline booklet is not available on the web, or at least I am not aware of such. I tried to access Strideaway but it did not come up. Site might be down. dunno.

Regardless of what is written, a lot of this stuff is pretty plastic in reality, but heck, you knew that.

Hope this is of some use.

RayG
Thanks Ray. I'm gonna look it up in the morning. I get perrty plastic!
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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by DonF » Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:05 pm

JKP wrote:
The dog under consideration must have and display great bird sense. He must show perfect work on both covey's and singles. He must be able quickly to determine between foot and body scent. He must use his brain, eyes and nose to the fullest advantage and hunt the likely places on the course. He must possess speed, range, style, character, courage and stamina-and good maners always. He must hunt the birds and not handler hunt the dog. No line or path runner is exceptable. He must be well broken and the better his manners the more clearly he proves his sound training. Should he lose a little in class as expressed in extream speed and range, he can make up for this, under fair judgment, in a single piece of superior bird work, or in a sustained demonstration of general behavior. He must be bold snappy and sprited. His range must be to the front or to the side but never behind. He must be regualrly and habitually pleasingly governable (tractable) and must know when to turn and keep his handler's course in view, and at all times keep uppermost in his mind the finding and pointing of birds for his handler.
If a dog can not be seen and be under judgement, how can the manner of the find be judged?....or if the dog is a "line runner"?....or if the dog is seeking likely cover?...using the wind intelligently?? etc. I guess my question is how do dogs out of sight for protracted periods of time win over dogs that can be seen and judged to have these qualities? (Guess this is where I'll be told I don't understand much :lol: ).
It can't but as chukar12 mentioned, if it drops off a ridge and is seen in five minutes on the next one, I'd certainly give the dog the benifit of the doubt. AKC trials are a bit different. Their braces are only a half hour. A dog out of view for more than 15 min total can only be judged on half the brace. A dog line running or path running is probably a whip run dog. In other words the dog was made ? to run and is not displaying it's knowledge of game. Most whip run dog's do find the easiest path to follow even though they may pass by good cover. In reguard to the manner of the find, if the dog is foung on point by the scout, handler or judge, the judge evaluates what he can see, that's all. Hard to discredit a dog that is found on point especially since we have no idea how long it's been there. I would always give the dog the benifit of the doubt there. Dogs out of sight for protracted periods of time, I guess that means excessive, usually don't place unless they are found on a bird. Then again the dog get's benifit of doubt, it could have been there 15 min and is just found. Then it will still have had a good run the rest of the stake. In an AKC brace lasting only 30min, that dog would have been out of judgment half the brace. Better be one fine piece of bird work and some good ground coverage after it. I think Amer Fld 1hr stakes are much better at showing the dog's worth. It doesn't take a lot to get an dog around for 30 min, an extra 30 min can make a heck of a difference. Most hunting dogs can't give 100% for a solid hr. More importantly the trial dog generally learns to pace itself and will maintain his gait through the hr. I've seen a lot of AKC dogs either loose it in half hour or have slowed enough that it won't make the next half hour. I think we've talked about pace here before and some believe the dog should be able to give 100% flat out run for the entire brace. I don't buy that. Rather I think a good dog will learn to pace itself so that it finish's as strong as it started. It may appear to be flat out but I doubt it with a good dog.
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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by DonF » Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:15 pm

Thanks Mr Red! I looked thru then to quickly, beat tired and going to bed. I'll look beter tomorrow. By the way, in the lower left anouncing a trial I think is a pointer and a setter. That setter looks exactly like my Bodie.
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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by shags » Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:08 am

DonF wrote:
JKP wrote:
The dog under consideration must have and display great bird sense. He must show perfect work on both covey's and singles. He must be able quickly to determine between foot and body scent. He must use his brain, eyes and nose to the fullest advantage and hunt the likely places on the course. He must possess speed, range, style, character, courage and stamina-and good maners always. He must hunt the birds and not handler hunt the dog. No line or path runner is exceptable. He must be well broken and the better his manners the more clearly he proves his sound training. Should he lose a little in class as expressed in extream speed and range, he can make up for this, under fair judgment, in a single piece of superior bird work, or in a sustained demonstration of general behavior. He must be bold snappy and sprited. His range must be to the front or to the side but never behind. He must be regualrly and habitually pleasingly governable (tractable) and must know when to turn and keep his handler's course in view, and at all times keep uppermost in his mind the finding and pointing of birds for his handler.
If a dog can not be seen and be under judgement, how can the manner of the find be judged?....or if the dog is a "line runner"?....or if the dog is seeking likely cover?...using the wind intelligently?? etc. I guess my question is how do dogs out of sight for protracted periods of time win over dogs that can be seen and judged to have these qualities? (Guess this is where I'll be told I don't understand much :lol: ).
It can't but as chukar12 mentioned, if it drops off a ridge and is seen in five minutes on the next one, I'd certainly give the dog the benifit of the doubt. AKC trials are a bit different. Their braces are only a half hour. A dog out of view for more than 15 min total can only be judged on half the brace. A dog line running or path running is probably a whip run dog. In other words the dog was made ? to run and is not displaying it's knowledge of game. Most whip run dog's do find the easiest path to follow even though they may pass by good cover. In reguard to the manner of the find, if the dog is foung on point by the scout, handler or judge, the judge evaluates what he can see, that's all. Hard to discredit a dog that is found on point especially since we have no idea how long it's been there. I would always give the dog the benifit of the doubt there. Dogs out of sight for protracted periods of time, I guess that means excessive, usually don't place unless they are found on a bird. Then again the dog get's benifit of doubt, it could have been there 15 min and is just found. Then it will still have had a good run the rest of the stake. In an AKC brace lasting only 30min, that dog would have been out of judgment half the brace. Better be one fine piece of bird work and some good ground coverage after it. I think Amer Fld 1hr stakes are much better at showing the dog's worth. It doesn't take a lot to get an dog around for 30 min, an extra 30 min can make a heck of a difference. Most hunting dogs can't give 100% for a solid hr. More importantly the trial dog generally learns to pace itself and will maintain his gait through the hr. I've seen a lot of AKC dogs either loose it in half hour or have slowed enough that it won't make the next half hour. I think we've talked about pace here before and some believe the dog should be able to give 100% flat out run for the entire brace. I don't buy that. Rather I think a good dog will learn to pace itself so that it finish's as strong as it started. It may appear to be flat out but I doubt it with a good dog.
In a trial there are very few braces where the dog will be in view 100% of the time unless the cover is very open and the terrain is such that allows for it, or if the dog is way too handy. Judges should be able to discern where a dog would likely be seen after it drops out of sight over a ridge or down a valley or into a woods etc. A winning dog will generally be where he'd be expected to be. A glimpse is all it takes; no need to be on top of the dog every second. But the dog needs to be doing what he should be doing at the times he's spotted.

In AKC stakes a dog can be gone for 20% of the stake -that's 6 minutes for 1/2 hour braces. At the end of that time the handler has the option of calling point and finding his dog standing, but the dog better be on a bird -if it's seen moving after point is called, it's done.

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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by Wenaha » Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:14 am

DonF wrote:The lack of a written standard certainly causes confussion about the difference between an AA dog and a SD. I talked with Erick Mauck some years ago and he told me the secrete to Sunrise was that he was really a shooting dog. Well how can that happen if he doesn't conform to the percived AA dog? I think myself that the biggest problem is that thee AA dog and SD were declared two different dogs and no discription to define the AA dog. As said above, a 400yd dog can actually win an AA trial. If that is so, what is the difference in the two? One has a standard and one doesn't.

It's a simple thing, where is the standard for an AA dog? Doesn't seem to exist.
Don - In AF trialing there are no written standards. There ARE guidelines, but the essence is that the judges must take into account a great many variables and reward the dog that they think was most deserving during the stake. The basic difference between a Shooting Dog and an All-Age dog is that the Shooting Dog hunts the available cover and terrain and stays in sight most of the time, while the AA dog hunts the country, questing for birds, displaying independence without totally losing contact with his handler. These dogs are pretty extreme examples of bird dogs and require a great deal of latitude in judging the quality of their performance. But, as I stated above, they MUST finish.

I have a young AA prospect that shows both great handling and extreme range. He is a joy to run because he requires very little handling. Of all the setters I have had, he is the one that I believe truly has the potential to win AA championships. But we'll see.

TM Sunrise was a rare dog. He could be, and was, foothunted. But he would run to extremes as well. He exemplified, in my mind at least, what a true AA dog should be. He could hardly be called a Shooting Dog (with apologies to Eric), because he won, I think, 12 AA titles and very nearly won the National Championship at least once.
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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by Crestonegsp » Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:50 am

Ok this drives me crazy, just because a dog runs up over the hill out of sight it is not an AA dog, that is a run off and all too often the two are confused. Where is it in any standard that says range defines an AA dog? Where the dog is, is one thing but how did they get there is another. All too often a run off is put up in an AA stake because those judging do not know what they are looking at. The issues with extreme ranges comes from the allowance of a run off dog winning an AA event and people seeing that and now the idea of not knowing what an AA is perpetuated by a lack of an understanding of what an AA dog is and is not.
Range is not the issue. The issue is people not having an understanding of what an AA dog is.
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Re: All Age Dogs

Post by DonF » Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:13 am

Well I got the articles on Strideway. Really intresting but as was mentioned in the articles, a dog simply cannot attain those goals so judging is to find the dog taht comes closest to them. Good discriptions but I'm not sure they are a standard. It would seem from those articles that speed and range play a major role. Even in the shooting dog stakes. Biggest factor in shooting dog seems to be a willingness to handle. A problem in the AA article would certainly be that a dog must be to the front or side and must use the wind to it's advantage? How do you do that if the course starts out with the wind coming from the back? I would think in that case the dog would make large casts and then work back into the handler? But when does working into the wind like that becoming yoyoing?

I think the Amesian Standard is closer to a standard even if it's not recognized as one. To me it describes a type of dog than can be attained. I do not understand a standard with descriptions that cannot be attained. While wonderfully written, I cannot see it as a standard. I think that a standard should be reachable and dogs either meet it or not and with those that do reach it, it then boils down to which did it best.

I wonder how a walking gun dog stake would go over in AF? It would certainly show that these dogs chasing the unreachable are capiable of throwing dogs of value to the foot hunter.
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