What would you do?

PkerStr8Tail · Post by **PkerStr8Tail** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:32 pm

I think there was a recent TV show titled something close to that anyway. The show had hidden cameras showing people in situations where they would be tempted with a situation where they could make an immoral decision and the idea was to see if they would do the right thing when no one was watching. This got me thinking about a recent situation I was involved in where I got a pup that turned out to have a genetic problem which was severe enough to have to be put down. I contacted the breeder and told him of the problem and also learned that one of the other littermates was found dead in the kennel. (makes me wonder if they had the same problem) So anyway after telling the breeding this information, the response was sorry to hear about your pup. That's it. Not even a second thought about trying to make it right. Just shows some people are greedy and only think of themselves. I don't feel I should have to argue and fight to get them to do the right thing.

You are the breeder:
So what would you do?

Vision · Post by **Vision** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:54 pm

Puppies should come with a five year guarantee of genetic defects IMO. With that only sound genetic tested dogs should be bred IMO.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:02 pm

I would offer you another pup from another litter or refund your money.....I would be pleased that someone brought this to my attention and stop breeding that line until i knew what the heck was going on....

I don't think genetic testing of that sort is really available Vision....Most Univ don't even have any pointer type dogs dna on file to figure out if issues are or how they are genetically carried and passed. Pups are a roll of the dice in more ways then one.

ymepointer · Post by **ymepointer** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:08 pm

I sold a pup to a couple and guaranteed the pup for life.....I said, if anything genetic is wrong with this pup not age related I will give you your money back....they asked me to put it in writing so I had a friend of mine who was a lawyer write up a document and I signed my life away.....I hope that pup never has any issues but you really never know. If it does happen I will give them there purchase price back and wish them well.

RoostersMom · Post by **RoostersMom** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:21 pm

I would refund purchase price and/or offer another pup. I would immediately take that dam and stud out of my breeding program until I figured out what the problem was. I would also immediately contact all other puppy owners and let them know there might be a potential problem.

Bad breeders SUCK. The dog should be the breeders responsibility IMO. If you can't care for it anymore, it goes back to the breeder - who gladly accepts the dog at any point in it's life and either keeps it or finds it another home. If the dog has a genetic defect, then it's the breeder's responsibility to make it right to the dog owner. Too many breeders think their responsibility ends at 6 weeks of age....and don't get me started at the breeders who let pups go to new homes before they're even 8 weeks old....I'd be p.o.'d all night.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Oct 24, 2011 8:35 pm

First, I'd ask for a necropsy or at least some kind of statement from a vet regarding the problem.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:57 am

I would ask for a statement from the vet also. Everything right there, new pup or the money back.

DougB · Post by **DougB** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:02 am

I would check my contract to verify the guarantee. Then a letter to the breeder asking for restitution or replacement. If no results, then a small claims action.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:34 am

I've had similar things happen like that Greg. Pretty sad what "breeders" will/won't do for ya.

Birdman250 · Post by **Birdman250** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:02 am

If I was that breeder I would verify the info, and so to the discovery, give you a choice of a new puppy or refund. If genetic defects was the case, I too would take the sire and dam out of my breeding program..It is these sad breeders that ruins for the rest.

markj · Post by **markj** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:31 pm

You are the breeder:
So what would you do?

Refund your money so you can choose another pup from another breeder if you wish to or buy another from me. If I was the breeder this is the way I would handle this.

sckwest1 · Post by **sckwest1** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 12:53 pm

It has been my experience that not many breeders will give your money back and I fall into that category 99% of the time. I would simply tell you to put the pup down and offer you something else that I may have or something off a future breeding to make it right. It would be interesting to know what was wrong with the dog. SCKWEST

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:30 pm

Man, usually this forum just jumps all over breeders. We don't know the whole story here.
Without a valid necropsy, there is not a lot that can be done.

Justin

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:32 pm

He did say it was enough to put the dog down. I doubt its just a bad bite.

kbshorthairs · Post by **kbshorthairs** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:50 pm

I've learned to be far more cautious about where and from whom I get a puppy.

ElhewPointer · Post by **ElhewPointer** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 1:58 pm

kbshorthairs wrote:I've learned to be far more cautious about where and from whom I get a puppy.

+1

PkerStr8Tail · Post by **PkerStr8Tail** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:32 pm

Buckeye_V wrote:Man, usually this forum just jumps all over breeders. We don't know the whole story here.
Without a valid necropsy, there is not a lot that can be done.

Justin

The pup is not dead, but I will have to put it down for sure. Just waiting a bit to see if he comes back and wants it back, but I won't hold my breathe. I am not going to go into all the details on here but if interested you can PM me. There is no doubt it is a genetic issue. I am not looking for sympathy, just venting about people who are greedy and just don't show values these days. I won't be discussing in an open public forum like this, but you can sure bet I will let anyone I know who they are and how they operate.

hansreb3 · Post by **hansreb3** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 2:40 pm

Rather than rely on genetic testing; is there some kind of database that could be run by breeders and vets? Seems to me that reporting genetic issues with your own dog (hip displaysia, etc) to a central source would pay off after a couple generations. There could be a requirement that you must have documentation from your vet that its a genetic problem. If the problem pops up in a line ONCE in 3 generations, who cares? But if it keeps showing up breeders would know.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:13 pm

hansreb3 wrote:Rather than rely on genetic testing; is there some kind of database that could be run by breeders and vets? Seems to me that reporting genetic issues with your own dog (hip displaysia, etc) to a central source would pay off after a couple generations. There could be a requirement that you must have documentation from your vet that its a genetic problem. If the problem pops up in a line ONCE in 3 generations, who cares? But if it keeps showing up breeders would know.

www.offa.org

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:34 pm

Have you had the dog to a vet at all? Any lab results back on glucose levels or anything at all. Who diagnosed the genetic defect. If it is genetic what is the defect?
Just curious

JuliaH · Post by **JuliaH** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:43 am

I would, as the breeder, want the pup back with a statement from the diagnosing veterinarian as to the nature of the genetic problem and how it was diagnosed. I would then go to my vet for a second opinion. If all turned out as the buyer reported to me, I would replace the pup. Now OFA testing for hips is easy to verify with breeder before purchase of a pup. On the website they list dogs that have been tested. When my dogs are done, I mark that permission is given to post them no matter what the results.

A buyer can also request to see the OFA results of paperwork on parents of pups he is looking at. I don't know that this is the problem here... just guessing, but safeguards must be taken by both parties. The percentage of GSP that have bad hips is low, but I test anyhow. Results come in the mail with a certificate within a few weeks of testing. I am not a large kennel, but problems like this could be devastating. To some maybe it should be, but there is responsibility and some homework on both sides

Just my opinion...

Julia

The pup is not dead, but I will have to put it down for sure. Just waiting a bit to see if he comes back and wants it back, but I won't hold my breathe. I am not going to go into all the details on here but if interested you can PM me. There is no doubt it is a genetic issue. I am not looking for sympathy, just venting about people who are greedy and just don't show values these days. I won't be discussing in an open public forum like this, but you can sure bet I will let anyone I know who they are and how they operate.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:08 am

If I were the breeder, you get a pup from another proven breeding. If I have no other breedings in your time frame you get a refund with vets report.

If this were a breeder of ocassion and was of limited means the least he could do is explain their situation and make at least some effort to at least pay vet bills or something.

Then, I would not be doing that breeding again.

There needs to be integrity and honor in any dealings.

JuliaH · Post by **JuliaH** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:41 am

The general public already thinks of breeders as puppy mills. I hear it on the news from time to time and we surely need to be breeding with integrity if we breed at all. I do breed, and I like to have my buyers know that I will help them when and if needed. I have only had 2 pups returned to me, both of which were rehomed and not for health reasons... they came back because family needs changed, and the owners did not want to, as one said "put the pup on Craigslist and take our chances". Thankfully I was called both times. Things happen sometimes. It means we need to be ready to stand behind our pups...

Ruffshooter wrote:If I were the breeder, you get a pup from another proven breeding. If I have no other breedings in your time frame you get a refund with vets report.

If this were a breeder of ocassion and was of limited means the least he could do is explain their situation and make at least some effort to at least pay vet bills or something.

Then, I would not be doing that breeding again.

There needs to be integrity and honor in any dealings.

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:09 am

Just saying we all jump to conclusions on these boards from only one perspective. I don't know either person. I don't know what the dog has or does not have. I have seen some dogs mis-diagnosed from one vet, so I'm not sure I would even trust that. I am just saying you guys are jumping all over this breeder and we don't know all the facts yet.

Would I stand behind my pups, yeah - but not until I knew all of the facts.

I don't believe on jumping on a board and airing my dirty laundry, though either. Just sayin.

markj · Post by **markj** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:09 pm

If it was out of my dogs and still alive I would want it back pronto so I could take it to my vet for an eval, I would pay the cost of the pup and return shipping just to make sure what is going on.

A dead dog can tell you nothing unless it is autopsied by a vet or the folks at UNL's necropsy lab for animals.

phermes1 · Post by **phermes1** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:32 pm

The question isn't whether he has standing in court, or whether the dog is truly sick. The question is 'What would you do?'

If a puppy I sold showed up with a fatal genetic conditiion, I would offer a refund or replacement.
Depending on the situation, I might ask for a second opinion, either to verify the condition or see if there is anything that can be done to treat the pup that hadn't been thought of.

Bottom line, my inclination wil be to take care of the puppy owner, not step back with a "Sucks to be you" attitude.

JuliaH · Post by **JuliaH** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:16 pm

If I were called with this problem, I would take the pup back (I mentioned that I have taken 2 back from other litters with other problems due to owners' situations) but I would want the veterinary report and a second opinion from my vet anyhow. Certainly if this was a fault from my program I would replace that pup from another line when I had a litter, and then deal with the parents of the pup as needed after veterinary confirmation of a real problem.

We only have partially one side of the story here, and I respect the poster not wanting to air dirty laundry any further on the forum, but there is another side to this problem... and that leaves me cautious in my response

Julia

phermes1 wrote:The question isn't whether he has standing in court, or whether the dog is truly sick. The question is 'What would you do?'

If a puppy I sold showed up with a fatal genetic conditiion, I would offer a refund or replacement.
Depending on the situation, I might ask for a second opinion, either to verify the condition or see if there is anything that can be done to treat the pup that hadn't been thought of.

Bottom line, my inclination wil be to take care of the puppy owner, not step back with a "Sucks to be you" attitude.

Buckeye_V · Post by **Buckeye_V** » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:50 pm

Same here Julia.

I would stand by my pup too, but every situation is different and you can't paint with broad strokes.

Just saying, it's a hard thing to call in a public forum when only one side is presented.

These are animals and not products you buy off a shelf.

Justin

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