Marking Birds in Trials

[V-John]

From what I understand, a dog turning to mark a bird is ok, as long as there is no forward movement. But this can and is held against dogs in trials, especially those of the championship caliber. However, don't we want dogs to mark birds, in hunting situations? Isn't what trialing is about, to find the best "birddog"? Why is a quarter turn or half turn (again, no forward progress) held against dogs? It seems that some judges it doesn't bother, and some it does. Thanks guys

[Brittguy]

that is a " you have to have been there thing" , not always held against the dog.

[birddog1968]

a dog that doesn't spin doesn't mean the dog isn't a birddog either....it means that dog has been trained to a very high level which is an indication of a good thing...I don't see why a judge would mark off for a spin tho, kinda splitting hairs to do so.

[Sharon]

My dog was disqualified for turning to mark some birds that had left the original cover. She was eliminated from a placement.. I want my dog to do that and not stand there staring into an empty bush. I talked to the Judge afterwards and he said my dog's movement was a "major fault. She can move in the other direction but can't take her back feet off the ground when doing so. " Difference between hunting and trialing I guess. One more thing to work on.

I watched this happen from a distance as I hadn't reached the point yet - walking trial.

[ultracarry]

I would think... if the dog has established point and the handler is in front the dog could move its head to mark the bird but not its feet. Once the bird is in flight a spin would he acceptable....

[RayGubernat]

Guys -

The rule is clear and the guidance is clear. No significant forward progress on a mark.

However, there are a fair numbe3r of judges who either do not know the rule and the guidance or simply have not hunted with a good enough dog to understand that marking is , in fact, a desirable trait to most folks and a prelude to the retrieve. It is, very often, a dog that has been hunted and expected to retrieve downed birds.

It is most certainly NOT a major fault and if there is no forward progress made by the dog, it is no fault at all. At worst, if there is no forward progress...it is a nothing. Any judge tht says that or believes a dog should be marked down for marking... is wrong. A dog should never be ordered upin an amateur stake for marking flight...even if it did take steps. If it did not, it should be given credit for very acceptable birdwork. To view it otherwise is a judicial mistake.

If a dog is trained to the level and has the intensity to maintian loft, rigid posture during and after the flight of the bird and subsequent shot that is one thing and that should be noted. That is indeed high style. However a dog which turns its head to mark, or spins, or(as I have seen once) gets up on its hind legs in tall grass, to mark flight, is showing very acceptable birdwork.

To me, there is a similarity between marking to flight and a dog that is lofty and rigid after the flush and shot. It is nice and showy for the dog to maintain that lofty posture until the handler colars the dog... but it a frill and a trick and should only be used by the judges to split hairs. Whether or not dog turns to mark should be pretty irrelevant to the performance...unless the dog does itin a memorable fashion. As an example, that dog I saw stand on its hind legs would definitely have made a favorable impression on me, because it was done with snap and you could see the burning intensity in the dog's eyes and posture. She wanted that SOB...bad. but she stood there and watched it fly away becuse seh wa trained to. I thought that was special.

Just one man's opinon.

RayG

[Ruffshooter]

In MH test and the few trial I have done, it depends on the judges interpretation which is influenced by if they hunt or are show. IMO that has been my limited experience up here. Not saying all are that way. But some.

[phermes1]

that is a " you have to have been there thing" , not always held against the dog.

+1

Generally speaking, I haven't seen marks held against a dog. Some judges will, but then - some judges shouldn't be judging, either.
And sometimes a handler perceives their dog as moving far less than it actually did..

[Buckeye_V]

Depends on situation, like has been said. Positive judging folks.

[DonF]

In AKC the rule used to be that the dog can move from cover to mark a bird. I think it said "so long as it does not make any signicent forward move". Very desireable trait in a bird dog. But in the N.W., it was not tolerated. I would even leave a dog down and possilby use it if it moved forward and stopped on it's own after the flush. The point being, of course, that a dog that does mark a bird even if it move's then stops on it's own, is more likely to make a tuff retrieve. Retrieving is part of what the AKC dog is about. Out here the rule was mostly ignored by judges. I asked a long time trialer why the rule was ignored. He told me that the preformance of the dog's was so close that they used it to make a difference. What I believe is a lot of them, most, could not judge the whole brace so they looked for reason's not to use dog. Seeing the dog on the ground that doesn't make any mistakes is a rairity! Dogs should be used based on the total preformance.

[slistoe]

Dog spins, handler hollers Whoa, dog stops. Move to mark or controlled break? As a judge I have to go with how the handler interpreted the situation. He felt he needed to correct the dog for breaking. Dog is out.

[Buckeye_V]

Man. Thats cheap. You didn't say what else you had to work with...

I'm gonna tell my dog whoa if a bird gets anywhere near him and so will 99% of handlers I know.

Who are you, so I can never run under you?

Justin

[DonF]

I would be hesitant about a dog that needed to be whoa'd unless it was a quiet whoa one time. Figure that the handler that whoa's several time's, loudly, thinks his might break. I'd keep the dog down as there is no disqualifing fault there. I've often said that every dog makes a mistake in a brace, some just not so much or bad as other's. I could not base a dogs true worth on one minute of a 30 min brace. It is the handlers job to show their dog as best they can to get a favorable responce from the judge.

Justin, I've seen lots of handlers not say whoa to their dog in a situation like that and I've watched a bunch more that start yelling whoa at their dog while trying to flush the bird. And usually the second type is, in my opinion, blocking the dog. He does not watch the bird fall. Why do you think that is? If the handler indicates by his handling that he thinks his dog will break, why shouldn't I think the same? But that is not a disqualifing factor, and I would be willing tto watch another piece of work. If that is the only find, I'd go with what i saw. Then there's handlers that go to flush and say a quite whoa to their dog then pay attention to flushing the bird and watchoing the fall. Big difference in the handling. One reminds the dog the other intimadates the dog. If in the origional situation, the dog moves to mark the bird, I am not opposed to that quite whoa one time. It certainly tells the difference between two dog's in that type situation. One handler does not trust his dog and one trust's the dog with a soft reminder. In the end, the one that get's the soft reminder is second, other things being equal, to the dog that get's none. The dog intimadeted does not place.

[Wenaha]

I think that ordering a dog up for a single minor infraction is not useful. The dog could go on and put on a stellar performance that would make you want to use him in the stake... or he may repeat the infraction or show other faults that would eliminate him from consideration. Major infractions such as fighting, stealing point and otherwise interfering with the brace mate do warrant a judicial order to "pick 'em up".

There seems to be, in some circles, a judicial attitude that says, "We have a lot of dogs to run, and only so much daylight... let's thin the herd as soon as possible." And if it happened to me, you would not see me at your trial again.

[DonF]

I think that ordering a dog up for a single minor infraction is not useful. The dog could go on and put on a stellar performance that would make you want to use him in the stake... or he may repeat the infraction or show other faults that would eliminate him from consideration. Major infractions such as fighting, stealing point and otherwise interfering with the brace mate do warrant a judicial order to "pick 'em up".

There seems to be, in some circles, a judicial attitude that says, "We have a lot of dogs to run, and only so much daylight... let's thin the herd as soon as possible." And if it happened to me, you would not see me at your trial again.

AKC rule's require the dog fighting to be picked up. The dog that steals a point? Didn't used to require a pick up but it would get picked up. depending on circumstances, I would keep the dog down. If the dog can't see the pointing dog is it stealing a point? How do you know what the dog can see on the ground sitting up on a horse? My Drifter got disqualified like that years ago, The pointing dog was on point and Drifter was coming thru heavy sage brush. The handler started yelling "whup". He claimed if he hadn't Drifter would have interfeared, judge bought it and later I found I'd been picked up for a possible interference. What is a possible interference? I know Drifter and he'd never heard the "whup" command in his life and he was a super backer. The biggest problem with judging back then was judges that didn't know what they were doing but were asked to judge because the club couldn't find anyone else.

[Sharon]

Dog spins, handler hollers Whoa, dog stops. Move to mark or controlled break? As a judge I have to go with how the handler interpreted the situation. He felt he needed to correct the dog for breaking. Dog is out.

Oooooh you're a tough son of a gun. ............. I agree with your evaluation. You're talking higher level competiton, I believe. I don't think a judge at a local week end trial would do that; he wouldn't get any lunch.

[Buckeye_V]

Thats my point guys. You'd never place any dogs at the trials I judge at, run in and watch if you take all the dogs out who get a whoa.

What kind of trials do you guys run in? What would you do hunting? What would you do - period regardless of where you were?

I don't get some judges being so danged negative. If I judged like that in 5 point major stakes all of the time.....I'd never , ever have blue ribbon dog. EVER.

Maybe I am a silly weekend only judge....

Justin

[Sharon]

Are you kidding ? Weekend judges are the backbone of field trialing. I commend any "weekend only Judge".

[phermes1]

More 'you have to see it' to really judge it.

A single whoa isn't going to take a dog out in my eyes. Usually. It depends on how the handler delivers it. If he says a single, not overly loud whoa, at the flush - let's call it a 'precautionary' whoa - then it's almost a non-event in my opinion. He doesn't truly think the dog is about to mail it in; it's just something he's used to doing. That's almost reflex with almost all of the handlers I see.
If he gives a single whoa, and it's more like "WWWHHHOOOAAAA!!!!", then um, yeah - that looks bad, and he's going to rightfully get knocked for it.

[fuzznut]

There is judging the Whole dogs performance, then judging the Holes in the dog performance. One considered positive judging and the other negative. So much easier to judge negatively.... always easier to look for mistakes then knowing what outstanding, although maybe not perfect, work is. I think many novice judges, or unsure judges do the latter.

IMO the more you run dogs, the more you watch outstanding dogs run the more I believe you remember that they are dogs, not machines and nothing in this sport is that black and white.

Dogs that turn to mark and stand their ground can be considered doing good work, even a dog that receives a quiet whoa could be ok. The handler that yells whoa then dives in to grab the dog.... well you just gave the judge something to watch out for on the next find. Give em enough rope.....leave enough question in a judges mind......well, you get the picture.

Fuzz

[Wenaha]

I think that ordering a dog up for a single minor infraction is not useful. The dog could go on and put on a stellar performance that would make you want to use him in the stake... or he may repeat the infraction or show other faults that would eliminate him from consideration. Major infractions such as fighting, stealing point and otherwise interfering with the brace mate do warrant a judicial order to "pick 'em up".

There seems to be, in some circles, a judicial attitude that says, "We have a lot of dogs to run, and only so much daylight... let's thin the herd as soon as possible." And if it happened to me, you would not see me at your trial again.

AKC rule's require the dog fighting to be picked up. The dog that steals a point? Didn't used to require a pick up but it would get picked up. depending on circumstances, I would keep the dog down. If the dog can't see the pointing dog is it stealing a point? How do you know what the dog can see on the ground sitting up on a horse? My Drifter got disqualified like that years ago, The pointing dog was on point and Drifter was coming thru heavy sage brush. The handler started yelling "whup". He claimed if he hadn't Drifter would have interfeared, judge bought it and later I found I'd been picked up for a possible interference. What is a possible interference? I know Drifter and he'd never heard the "whup" command in his life and he was a super backer. The biggest problem with judging back then was judges that didn't know what they were doing but were asked to judge because the club couldn't find anyone else.

Don, I trial in AF. I am not fully conversant with AKC trial rules.

I was ordered to pick up my dog under similar circumstances - due to terrain and a number of judges' and gallery horses standing and the position of the pointed dog (over a hill crest) my dog could not see the pointed dog until he was nearly alongside it, then slammed to a point. Judge say, "Pick up your dog!" The dog's eye view is a lot different than the view from the saddle on a tall horse. This is why I beleive a dog should be left down to run unless there is a clear violation that interferes with the brace mate.

"stealing point" is not the same as a failure to back. Stealing point, to me, is one dog inserting itself between the pointed dog and the bird - or going ahead of the pointed dog. It's a pretty gray area -- when is a dog 'interfering' and when is it not?

[PkerStr8Tail]

The rule book clearly states that a dog that spins to mark flight show intensity and is a desirable trait but cannot make any forward movement. However I have never seen a dog allowed to continue in a championship if any of its four feet move whatsoever. I believe the trial community has become accustomed to having top level dogs that never move at all and so judging have evolved to expect that. In weekend trials it is allowed some but I have never seen it allowed in a championship. Just one of those things where the rule says one thing but it has evolved to be judge another way. The easy answer is that every judge will say they did move than just spin so how do you argue. Something you just have to live with.

[DonF]

I think that ordering a dog up for a single minor infraction is not useful. The dog could go on and put on a stellar performance that would make you want to use him in the stake... or he may repeat the infraction or show other faults that would eliminate him from consideration. Major infractions such as fighting, stealing point and otherwise interfering with the brace mate do warrant a judicial order to "pick 'em up".

There seems to be, in some circles, a judicial attitude that says, "We have a lot of dogs to run, and only so much daylight... let's thin the herd as soon as possible." And if it happened to me, you would not see me at your trial again.

AKC rule's require the dog fighting to be picked up. The dog that steals a point? Didn't used to require a pick up but it would get picked up. depending on circumstances, I would keep the dog down. If the dog can't see the pointing dog is it stealing a point? How do you know what the dog can see on the ground sitting up on a horse? My Drifter got disqualified like that years ago, The pointing dog was on point and Drifter was coming thru heavy sage brush. The handler started yelling "whup". He claimed if he hadn't Drifter would have interfeared, judge bought it and later I found I'd been picked up for a possible interference. What is a possible interference? I know Drifter and he'd never heard the "whup" command in his life and he was a super backer. The biggest problem with judging back then was judges that didn't know what they were doing but were asked to judge because the club couldn't find anyone else.

Don, I trial in AF. I am not fully conversant with AKC trial rules.

I was ordered to pick up my dog under similar circumstances - due to terrain and a number of judges' and gallery horses standing and the position of the pointed dog (over a hill crest) my dog could not see the pointed dog until he was nearly alongside it, then slammed to a point. Judge say, "Pick up your dog!" The dog's eye view is a lot different than the view from the saddle on a tall horse. This is why I beleive a dog should be left down to run unless there is a clear violation that interferes with the brace mate.

"stealing point" is not the same as a failure to back. Stealing point, to me, is one dog inserting itself between the pointed dog and the bird - or going ahead of the pointed dog. It's a pretty gray area -- when is a dog 'interfering' and when is it not?

I have never done AF and I could not agree with you more. I used two bibles when I judeged, AKC's Rules and Standard Proceedure's and the Amesian Standard. I think the Amesian Standard is the finest guideline to judging dogs ever written. You don't dare mention it around most people running AKC. They get their shorthair or what ever, chase the Pointer but do not want to conform to pointer standards. Actually, the Amesian Standard was not written for pointer's, it was written for bird dogs! At the end of the day, what every format is looking for is a bird dog.

[Sharon]

There is judging the Whole dogs performance, then judging the Holes in the dog performance. One considered positive judging and the other negative. So much easier to judge negatively.... always easier to look for mistakes then knowing what outstanding, although maybe not perfect, work is. I think many novice judges, or unsure judges do the latter.

IMO the more you run dogs, the more you watch outstanding dogs run the more I believe you remember that they are dogs, not machines and nothing in this sport is that black and white.

Dogs that turn to mark and stand their ground can be considered doing good work, even a dog that receives a quiet whoa could be ok. The handler that yells whoa then dives in to grab the dog.... well you just gave the judge something to watch out for on the next find. Give em enough rope.....leave enough question in a judges mind......well, you get the picture.

Fuzz

That is so well said. I'm not a Judge but that's the kind of philosophy I wish every judge followed. Thanks. ( That philosophy also makes for a darn good teacher and manager. )

[slistoe]

As usual not all of us are talking the same language. Taking a dog out of the running for championship points and picking the dog up are different things. The rules really allow for dogs to be "ordered up" in pretty defined circumstances that have already been outlined here and those are the only times I would tell a handler to "pick him up", but it is certainly of interest to the handler to advise him that you have decided you have seen better dogs already and his dog is out. He is free to do as he pleases with the information.

Buckeye - if you want credit for stellar bird work and a snappy mark of flight then you better let the dog do it. If the dog is in motion and you holler whoa at him then it is obvious that you as a handler did not believe the dog was merely turning to mark the flight of the bird. You can leave the dog down and gamble on the rest of the dogs taking themselves out of the competition but you still will not be getting a major win.

And yes, AF weekend trials are different as there are no Championship points at stake. Best dog of the day wins regardless.

[Neil]

I have been saying for years I was going to train my dogs not to "whoa", but to stop on "sic'em". Then I could handle my dog however I liked without fear of a judge, judging me and not the dog. Now I have retired and never did it.

As a judge, I never paid much mind to what a handler said, or did for that matter as long as he did not interfer with his bracemete. I tried to judge the dog, if he moved too much, whether the handler said anything or not, I would count him down.

It just seems odd that saying "whoa", when you could have said "butterscotch", would get you picked up. Seems you are try8ng to judge what the dog might have done, not what he did do.

Oh, well, I don't have to worry about it anymore. But please tell me if I were to yell "sic'em" repeatedly, would you pick my dog up?

Neil

[Sharon]

I think they'd pick you up and deposit you back in your car.

[DonF]

I have been saying for years I was going to train my dogs not to "whoa", but to stop on "sic'em". Then I could handle my dog however I liked without fear of a judge, judging me and not the dog. Now I have retired and never did it.

As a judge, I never paid much mind to what a handler said, or did for that matter as long as he did not interfer with his bracemete. I tried to judge the dog, if he moved too much, whether the handler said anything or not, I would count him down.

It just seems odd that saying "whoa", when you could have said "butterscotch", would get you picked up. Seems you are try8ng to judge what the dog might have done, not what he did do.

Oh, well, I don't have to worry about it anymore. But please tell me if I were to yell "sic'em" repeatedly, would you pick my dog up?

Neil

Don't even fart loud or your outa here!

I paid a lot of attention to the handler. Guy's out in front of their dog yelling whoa thru the flush and kill are blocking their dog, period! Rules say you cannot block or intimidate the dog. Wouldn't pick you up but would certainly need to see some more work from the dog. If that dog was the only dog with a find, I'd with hold places with ch points and give the dog a best of losers! I have heard so many excuses for why these things are alright, even from judges. Usually the judge that allows it does the same thing himself and he's protecting himself in case he should run with that handler as judge. And keep in mind, you can interput the rules any way you want but the only interputation that counts is the judges. I reall think that judges should be picked from trialers that don't trial anymore.

[Buckeye_V]

Thanks Neil, that was my point and I could not communicate that.

[slistoe]

But please tell me if I were to yell "sic'em" repeatedly, would you pick my dog up?

Neil

If you give your dog a command to stop him it is obvious you are giving a command. What word or body gesture you use is immaterial. If the dog moves with the bird and you command the dog to stop then you obviously did not believe that your dog was simply repositioning itself for a better view of the mark.

[trueblu]

I'm sure I will get disagreement on this, but it comes from riding, running in, and judging GSP, Brit, Weim, Viszla, and Pointer/Setter trials. Most pointer/setter folks want the dog to be solid on point, meaning, even when the bird flies, they seem to want the dog to stand like a statue. I've always said it's because in few, if any, of their horseback trials, retrieving isn't expected. In GSP, Weim, Viszla, events, and to become a FC and AFC, the dogs must have 4 retrieving points, so the dogs are trained to retrieve, mark birds, etc. As a shorthair owner, I am fine with a dog rotating to mark a bird's flight. I can even see a reason a dog might move forward or even backward, to mark a bird. For example, and it's happened hunting, dog is on point, birds fly over a knoll in a field 15 yards away, the dog moves to the edge of the knoll, to mark downed birds, but stops with no commands. MOST would throw that dog out. To me, that is a very smart seasoned hunting dog. Generally, I don't want the dog to move forward, but marking is almost expected when I'm judging.

I believe, and have said for years, in a perfect world, to be able to judge, one should have hunted wild birds for many years AND have finished at least one FC or AFC. But, that is a pipedream, I know. Nowadays, IMO 90% of the judges in trials, tests, etc. have never hunted a single day for wild birds.

[DonF]

I'm sure I will get disagreement on this, but it comes from riding, running in, and judging GSP, Brit, Weim, Viszla, and Pointer/Setter trials. Most pointer/setter folks want the dog to be solid on point, meaning, even when the bird flies, they seem to want the dog to stand like a statue. I've always said it's because in few, if any, of their horseback trials, retrieving isn't expected. In GSP, Weim, Viszla, events, and to become a FC and AFC, the dogs must have 4 retrieving points, so the dogs are trained to retrieve, mark birds, etc. As a shorthair owner, I am fine with a dog rotating to mark a bird's flight. I can even see a reason a dog might move forward or even backward, to mark a bird. For example, and it's happened hunting, dog is on point, birds fly over a knoll in a field 15 yards away, the dog moves to the edge of the knoll, to mark downed birds, but stops with no commands. MOST would throw that dog out. To me, that is a very smart seasoned hunting dog. Generally, I don't want the dog to move forward, but marking is almost expected when I'm judging.

I believe, and have said for years, in a perfect world, to be able to judge, one should have hunted wild birds for many years AND have finished at least one FC or AFC. But, that is a pipedream, I know. Nowadays, IMO 90% of the judges in trials, tests, etc. have never hunted a single day for wild birds.

Excellent!Field trial dogs should be bird dogs also.

[Buckeye_V]

Way to go TrueBlue!!!!

Thats all I have to say about dat....

[slistoe]

Buckeye, could you please point out where trueblu has posted something significantly different to cause you to give it such applause where you were in great disagreement with what I posted?

[Buckeye_V]

Oh, the whole post.

Thanks

[slistoe]

So you just glossed over the "but stops with no commands" statement?

[V-John]

I posted this exact same thread on another forum and one guy told me that when it comes to championships, and you need to split hairs, do you want the dog that stands like a statue and proves that he can accept that advanced level of training, or the dog that turns and marks?

I visualize the example that someone gave of the dog standing up on his hind legs to see the bird, and then just stand there, and think, "wow, that's pretty "bleep" nice"... Shows to me, at least, that a dog is hunted, and has very fine manners.

It all relates and depends on positive or negative judging....

[Buckeye_V]

No glossing. You expect way more than I do.

That's your choice. I judge what the dog does and not what I think it's going to do, but that's cool.

Nice pics.

Justin

[slistoe]

A controlled break on the bird (dog breaks but stops on command) is not a movement to mark.

The dog in the pics would still be in judgement with no demerit.

[Buckeye_V]

Being a total smart alic here, but to prove a point......

How would I know what you said in the pic or didn't say? I wasn't there and would have no idea.

And even if you did say something - it's what the dog does or doesn't do at that point. I don't care what you tell your dog when he spins. If you wanna whoa him - go ahead. If he stops it shows good training. If he doesn't, well it didn;t matter what you said anyway - now did it?

But I guess thats why different folks judge differently. You know what they say about opinions, my friend.....

Justin

[slistoe]

Yeah, you really proved it.

You are right, it is not video. I just thought it was kinda neat that I actually had pictures of a move to mark. You will just have to take my word for it that it was actually that and not a controlled break on the bird. But the identifiable weed does provide evidence of no significant forward movement.

[slistoe]

No glossing. You expect way more than I do.

That's your choice. I judge what the dog does and not what I think it's going to do, but that's cool.

Nice pics.

Justin

And since you wanted to revisit all this, I don't expect any more than the post you glossed over.

I judge what the dog does. If the dog moves, it moves. If you, as a handler, want me to view it as a movement to mark you better treat it that way and do not treat the situation as a dog that is breaking on its bird and needs to be stopped. I have been known to stretch the forward movement guideline on an otherwise classy piece of birdwork - but it is very rare that I would have that chance.

[Ruffshooter]

That looked like a nice piece of work.

Now if your handler goes in and gives a quiet whoa or signal to the dog before the flush. How are you viewing that? The dog still turned to mark but did similar as your reference.
Thanks,
Rick

[slistoe]

Now if your handler goes in and gives a quiet whoa or signal to the dog before the flush. How are you viewing that?

In regards to the movement to mark? The dog isn't moving so it is irrelevant to the discussion.

[DonF]

I posted this exact same thread on another forum and one guy told me that when it comes to championships, and you need to split hairs, do you want the dog that stands like a statue and proves that he can accept that advanced level of training, or the dog that turns and marks?

I visualize the example that someone gave of the dog standing up on his hind legs to see the bird, and then just stand there, and think, "wow, that's pretty "bleep" nice"... Shows to me, at least, that a dog is hunted, and has very fine manners.

It all relates and depends on positive or negative judging....

There is no need to split hairs in championships, all dogs make some mistakes and some lack the drive. Some go out and blow their wad in 20 min, Start like a speed demon and finish like a old guy in a wheel chair. Some will bust thru cover that should have been hunted thru quickly but not ignored. Then there's the dog that takes the path of least resistence, usually a whip run dog. But for all the things that could make a difference, moving to mark a bird on a find is really easy for everyone to see and easy for a judge to justify. Good dog work or not, it'll usually get you picked up.

[DonF]

A controlled break on the bird (dog breaks but stops on command) is not a movement to mark.

The dog in the pics would still be in judgement with no demerit.

I thought you guy's were looking at a video somewhere. Now I see it's the photo's up above. If they really show what it looks like they do, that is great dog work. That bird being shot is really pretty close to the gunner still, the dog already turned and the gunner has the gun mounted and is ready to shoot. How in the world could all that happen in just a couple seconds? Great dog work, that's how!

You won't find many guys with dogs that do that because the dog goes to the very edge of breaking and keeps it under control. Most dogs in that same situation are off to the races right there.

[ultracarry]

Don, I have to agree with your past two comments.

For some of the posts above about comments.... what some people don't realize is the extra pressure you are putting on the dog when you give him/her commands when they are on point or the bird has just been flushed and they move. In my observations and experience with my own dog is you should be quiet and rely on solid training. It also doesn't look good when the handler has to remind the dog what to do on point. It should already know by the time its in broke stakes.

[slistoe]

Don, thanks for the comment. That dog is the real deal. Here is the next picture in the sequence. Framing is off but you can see the bird on its way to the ground.

[DonF]

Don, thanks for the comment. That dog is the real deal. Here is the next picture in the sequence. Framing is off but you can see the bird on its way to the ground.

Glad to see that. It say's everything needing to be said. Don't know who's dog that is but he has himself a real bird dog!

[slistoe]

Ultra, I am always amused at the folks who run a repeated string of whoas at their dog and the dog loses style with each one. Sitting back in the saddle you can see the dog deflate each time.
Loss of style can be a deal breaker in a tight stake.