AKC HT Judge question

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phermes1
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AKC HT Judge question

Post by phermes1 » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:36 pm

You're judging JH. Handler comes to the line asking if he can carry a broke-open shotgun with him when he runs his dog. He has a blank gun; he isn't going to use the shotgun, he just wants to carry it.
Do you let him?
If not, why not?
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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by DonF » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:40 pm

Sure. I think it should be required. A handler following a bird with a shotgun can't block his dog very well while following a bird. I don't remember all the rules very well any more. Is it required in SH and MH? Should be.
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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by ultracarry » Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:54 pm

It's required for MH. Im not a judge but would allow it because they require it at the later stages. Might also remind the dog to hunt and why they are out there.

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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by dan v » Wed Oct 26, 2011 1:04 pm

We would have a chat about "why" he thinks he needs it. I once had a MH handler come to the line with a Crossman 77 bb gun. I asked him to shake it...the bb's rattled inside. Told him to go find another carry piece.
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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by phermes1 » Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:25 pm

Wyndancer wrote:We would have a chat about "why" he thinks he needs it. I once had a MH handler come to the line with a Crossman 77 bb gun. I asked him to shake it...the bb's rattled inside. Told him to go find another carry piece.
Obviously, this was a real situation. I think the reasoning was that the dog had been shot over every time it had been in the field, so the absence of a shotgun might have caused the dog to wonder why it was out there, basically.

I was judging, I didn't object to it, and here's why.
First - a hunt test is theoretically supposed to mimic an authentic hunting situation. The handler holding a gun could only help towards that end.

Second - the only reason to disallow them would be if they were considered a training aid. It would not make sense to me to consider them a training aid for JH - but a requirement for the highest testing level, MH. A training aid is a training aid. If it's not considered a training aid for MH, how can it be considered one for JH?

Some folks disagreed with the decision. I didn't see it as a big deal. The dog was still going to have to hunt, find and point birds. As long as it did that, for all I cared, the handler could've worn a clown suit if he thought it would help.
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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by DonF » Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:52 pm

Wyndancer wrote:We would have a chat about "why" he thinks he needs it. I once had a MH handler come to the line with a Crossman 77 bb gun. I asked him to shake it...the bb's rattled inside. Told him to go find another carry piece.
I'd say good call. The BB gun was loaded. One of the unsavory things about judging any format is that as a judge you either make the event creditable of you turn it into a joke. Takes a lot of gut's to make some calls cause you know when you do it your gonna get slamed by some of the people.
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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by RoostersMom » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:22 pm

Not to hijack, but since you're already on the topic of HT judge questions, I have another question for AKC HT judges out there:

I was told by another guy running his dog in the last MH test I ran that he was told he couldn't use a break-open shotgun to carry - it had to be a semi-auto. Now what could that have possibly been about? I don't see anywhere that is says what kind of gun must be carried in MH, anyone have a clue about what is "legal" as a carry gun for MH? Is it legal to carry a "fake" gun, like a wooden gun? What would you recommend a handler carry? And what, if any, reason could you think of to require a handler to carry a semi-auto loader?

Thanks in advance - I'm headed to KS this weekend for a double test and just didn't want to goof up by bringing my o/u (which I have used at the two times I've run him so far without incident).

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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by DonF » Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:35 pm

Bull!
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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by dan v » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:13 pm

RoostersMom wrote:Not to hijack, but since you're already on the topic of HT judge questions, I have another question for AKC HT judges out there:

I was told by another guy running his dog in the last MH test I ran that he was told he couldn't use a break-open shotgun to carry - it had to be a semi-auto. Now what could that have possibly been about? I don't see anywhere that is says what kind of gun must be carried in MH, anyone have a clue about what is "legal" as a carry gun for MH? Is it legal to carry a "fake" gun, like a wooden gun? What would you recommend a handler carry? And what, if any, reason could you think of to require a handler to carry a semi-auto loader?
It is quite "legal" to carry a wooden shotgun, as it is legal to carry a SxS or OxU. I do know that "some" have overlayed the sound of a OxU, being sharply snapped closed, with some electricity. The requirement to have a "shotgun" is that in MH the handler is supposed to shoulder the gun and simulate the gunning of the bird. This is meant to prevent the handler from "looking down" the dog, or block the dog.
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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by phermes1 » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:58 pm

You absolutely can carry a break-action shotgun in MH. They also recently started allowing fake guns as well. The rules about what a MH handler can carry do not differentiate between break-action and automatic.
If either is called into question, I would expect it to be the auto, as the AKC already doesn't allow their use in gunning situations for safety reasons.
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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by Buckeye_V » Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:51 am

I know 2 people who train their dogs to "whoa" to a shotgun closing. I should make them carry a semi or fake.
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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by trueblu » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:13 am

Actually, guns to be used in hunting tests must be double barrel, so by definition, break down. Semi-automatics are prohibited in hunting tests. Whoever told you that your gun had to be a semi-auto was wrong.

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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by phermes1 » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:15 am

And let's not have my thread get too hijacked. :) I would like to hear more feedback on the original topic if anyone's got any.
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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by adogslife » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:25 am

I know 2 people who train their dogs to "whoa" to a shotgun closing. I should make them carry a semi or fake.
So what.
I know many people who train their dog not to move when a bird moves.
Should we use fake birds?

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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by slistoe » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:29 am

Most folks I know overlay the whoa command to the sound of the gun going off. Guess we need to quit shooting over the dogs.

I would let them carry the shottie in JH. Since it is required in MH there is no possible way to construe it as a training aid.

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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by RoostersMom » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:32 am

phermes1 wrote:And let's not have my thread get too hijacked. :) I would like to hear more feedback on the original topic if anyone's got any.

Sorry Phermes.

I'm not a judge, but I think it would be fine to let them carry a gun. My sis is running her dogs for the first time ever this weekend and she's glad she won't have to deal with a cap gun and a shotgun both. She's a wee bit nervous. And she's talked me nephew into coming and running his puppy too. Should be a fun time!

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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by Greg Jennings » Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:47 am

The people/person Buckeye_V mentioned SLAMS the O/U closed. There is nothing realistic about it. Also, if done with the force that I've observed when out hunting, it would, IMHO, be a safety concern. I've seen enough rifles and shotguns slam fire. With a lot of designs, all it takes is some trash in the wrong place in the trigger.

So, the situation isn't realistic. It has nothing to do with real hunting. So, the arguments about shooting birds, etc, don't have anything to do with the situation that Buckeye_V is talking about.

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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by phermes1 » Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:35 am

RoostersMom wrote:
Sorry Phermes.

I'm not a judge, but I think it would be fine to let them carry a gun. My sis is running her dogs for the first time ever this weekend and she's glad she won't have to deal with a cap gun and a shotgun both. She's a wee bit nervous. And she's talked me nephew into coming and running his puppy too. Should be a fun time!
No problem at all. :)
I'm just interested in different opinions. When I was asked, I could think of nothing that would make me say no, so I was a bit surprised when people actually questioned it.
Other points raised have been if it was a safety issue; ie, did we check to see if the gun was unloaded. Um, ok, seriously - yes we did, and if it's a safety issue in JH, it's a safety issue in MH, where it's already required. The gun was broken and on his shoulder the entire time. Safety wasn't an issue.
Also - rules state that only blank pistols may be used in JH. OK, fair enough. However - he wasn't using the shotgun, only carrying it. He had a blank pistol that he used for his finds. The purpose of that rule goes back to safety concerns, to prevent people from firing live firearms over their dogs. So again, no issue there.
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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by Buckeye_V » Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:04 am

See no problems with it Paul. I would have let it happen as well as long as they could prove it was empty and they had no ammo on them.

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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by CherrystoneWeims » Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:03 pm

AKC regulations clearly PROHIBIT the handler carrying anything but a blank pistol in any level but MH. I've been told the story of this and in my opinion the shotgun was used as a training tool which is also prohibited.

AKC also prohibits the usage of anything but a break gun (unless it is a cut out/toy gun) for both gunners and handlers of MH dogs. This is for safety sake.

I'm an AKC HT judge and would not have allowed it to be carried.
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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:32 pm

CherrystoneWeims wrote:AKC regulations clearly PROHIBIT the handler carrying anything but a blank pistol in any level but MH. I've been told the story of this and in my opinion the shotgun was used as a training tool which is also prohibited.

AKC also prohibits the usage of anything but a break gun (unless it is a cut out/toy gun) for both gunners and handlers of MH dogs. This is for safety sake.

I'm an AKC HT judge and would not have allowed it to be carried.
Explain how it is anymore a training tool than a whistle is?

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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by CherrystoneWeims » Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:40 pm

Easy, PM sent to you. There's more to this.

Paul, I believe the handler made a comment to you as to why he carries the shotgun?
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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by wannabe » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:06 am

CherrystoneWeims wrote:AKC regulations clearly PROHIBIT the handler carrying anything but a blank pistol in any level but MH. I've been told the story of this and in my opinion the shotgun was used as a training tool which is also prohibited.
I was unable to find anything in my Hunt Test rule book that clearly PROHIBITED the JH or SH handler from carrying a shotgun. It does say that only a blank pistol may be used, but it doesn't say that a shotgun couldn't be carried.

IMO, I could care less whether the handler used the shotgun as a training aid. As long as the gun was carried and handled as if it was loaded with live ammo, I'm okay with it.
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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by phermes1 » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:30 am

CherrystoneWeims wrote:Easy, PM sent to you. There's more to this.

Paul, I believe the handler made a comment to you as to why he carries the shotgun?
And I answered that question in an earlier post. The handler shot over his dog every time he took it out - shame on him, taking his dog hunting, right? :roll: - so he was unsure if the dog would recognize it as hunting without a gun present.

And actually, there is NOT more to this. All information has been shared, by 1 of exactly 3 people that were actually there and know what transpired.
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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by Buckeye_V » Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:42 am

Funny how that works, huh Paul?

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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by ultracarry » Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:46 pm

I'm just floored that there was a Vizsla owner that actually judges... jk. Red dog people are usually nice and helpful.

Who cares about the shotgun. I'm more worried about a dog that runs quarreling the field 30-45 Yds out like a lab.. now how do three dogs get a pass... or the ones that scream whoa when the dogs on point in JH or SH. Makes you scratch your head and feel sorry for the dog.

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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by CherrystoneWeims » Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:25 pm

Section 7 page 16 of the AKC pointing breeds hunt test regulations states that only blank pistols can be used in JH tests.
http://www.akc.org/pdfs/rulebooks/RHTPNT.pdf
The AKC rep, Gary Sadler, was also asked about this and he stated the same rule.

The Weimaraner handler stated to others that the presence of the shotgun makes his dog hunt harder.........I believe that this qualifies the shotgun as being used as a training tool.
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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by CherrystoneWeims » Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:29 pm

RoostersMom wrote:Not to hijack, but since you're already on the topic of HT judge questions, I have another question for AKC HT judges out there:

I was told by another guy running his dog in the last MH test I ran that he was told he couldn't use a break-open shotgun to carry - it had to be a semi-auto. Now what could that have possibly been about? I don't see anywhere that is says what kind of gun must be carried in MH, anyone have a clue about what is "legal" as a carry gun for MH? Is it legal to carry a "fake" gun, like a wooden gun? What would you recommend a handler carry? And what, if any, reason could you think of to require a handler to carry a semi-auto loader?

Thanks in advance - I'm headed to KS this weekend for a double test and just didn't want to goof up by bringing my o/u (which I have used at the two times I've run him so far without incident).
A break gun is allowed but a semi-auto is not allowed by either the official gunners or the handlers.
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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by phermes1 » Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:54 pm

The AKC rep, Gary Sadler, was also asked about this and he stated the same rule.
The response I saw from Gary, forwarded after the fact, was a one word answer of no. Either way, I disagree with him. IMO, that's the opinion of one person, not the AKC. I could probably go talk to different AKC rep and get the answer I was looking for, too. At BEST, the rulebook is not clear on this issue. It states 'used' - not 'possess' or 'carry'.

The HT rules also state that the *use* of cell phones is not allowed. So if I forget to take my phone out of my pocket, am I disqualified? If 'possess' equals 'use', as the first definition apparently indicates, I would be.
The Weimaraner handler stated to others that the presence of the shotgun makes his dog hunt harder.........I believe that this qualifies the shotgun as being used as a training tool.
OK. My dogs are trained on the whistle to move forward. Does that make it a training aid and thus not allowed?

I'd also like to understand how it's a training aid in JH but not MH.
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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by wannabe » Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:53 pm

I'm with phermes1 on this one, and I'm still looking for the AKC rule that clearly PROHIBITS JH handlers from carrying a shotgun...
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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by ultracarry » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:27 pm

The term "use" is very different than "possession of, or carry" .

What are they going to do? Maybe erase a JH pass? Ban the guy? Fire the judge? Seems like some people are made that someone used the practical approach to the situation. It's not pike someone was allowed and someone else wasn't.

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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:40 pm

Too many times, in all venues, we get hung up on man made rules instead of how a good bird dog works. Are we judging the trainer or the dog and if it is the dog why do we care how it was trained? I really thought we were supposed to be showing a good dog, with outstanding abilities, that is well trained. If this is not the case, have we lost our way somewhere?

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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by ultracarry » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:52 pm

ezzy333 wrote:Too many times, in all venues, we get hung up on man made rules instead of how a good bird dog works. Are we judging the trainer or the dog and if it is the dog why do we care how it was trained? I really thought we were supposed to be showing a good dog, with outstanding abilities, that is well trained. If this is not the case, have we lost our way somewhere?

Ezzy
You haven't handled any MH dogs have you. I have been told to "sing" to my dog because the judge thought for some odd reason it would pull her back in... boy was he wrong. Dog was in the bird field 15 minutes before the dog that was healing it handler made it.

What's a better dog? One you have to command to work cover or one that does it naturally? The dog that handles shouldnt need to be hacked. I think a lot of judges are confused and encourage the whistle blasting fat chick approach to bullying a dog around the course by giving it high scores.

Before everyone thanks I'm bashing hunt tests I'm not. I do them myself.

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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by phermes1 » Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:40 am

ultracarry wrote:The term "use" is very different than "possession of, or carry" .

What are they going to do? Maybe erase a JH pass? Ban the guy? Fire the judge? Seems like some people are made that someone used the practical approach to the situation. It's not pike someone was allowed and someone else wasn't.
None of the above, I think. The dog didn't pass, and nothing was brought to the event committee.
The only purpose of this thread is that I wanted to see where my opinion stood in relation to others. Contrary to popular belief, if I'm wrong, I'd like to know about it. :)
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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by Crestonegsp » Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:47 am

If he has shot over the dog every time he is in the field my first question is who shoots every bird for a dog? Second if he is only going to carry it and not shoulder why does he need it at all? I would not let him carry it but because there is no need in a JR Hunter, they do not need to be steady to wing and shot. No need to carry a shotgun in a junior, who wants to lug one around in the filed if you are not going to use it.

I have seen a few little tricks, like Wyndancer said the BB gun with BBs in it, a little shake does the trick. A short tab hanging off the collar. The bell on the collar has always bothered me ever since a guy told me he would only put a bell on his dog if it was also wearing an ecollar. Closing the shotgun right next to the dog. A tracking collar up tight around the dogs head. Buckel up/down collars put on tight. And the list goes on and on.

No need to carry the shotgun in a Jr Hunter.
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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by dan v » Tue Nov 01, 2011 5:56 am

Crestonegsp wrote:If he has shot over the dog every time he is in the field my first question is who shoots every bird for a dog? Second if he is only going to carry it and not shoulder why does he need it at all? I would not let him carry it but because there is no need in a JR Hunter, they do not need to be steady to wing and shot. No need to carry a shotgun in a junior, who wants to lug one around in the filed if you are not going to use it.

I have seen a few little tricks, like Wyndancer said the BB gun with BBs in it, a little shake does the trick. A short tab hanging off the collar. The bell on the collar has always bothered me ever since a guy told me he would only put a bell on his dog if it was also wearing an ecollar. Closing the shotgun right next to the dog. A tracking collar up tight around the dogs head. Buckel up/down collars put on tight. And the list goes on and on.

No need to carry the shotgun in a Jr Hunter.
Like I said earlier. We'd be having a conversation on why the handler thought he needed it. Not saying I wouldn't allow it. How about a carry shotgun in SH?

Anyway, I seen plenty of tricks, and I'm sure I've missed plenty of tricks as well. I did have to caution a MH handler about his watering technique...see, he like to call the dog in, in the bird field, get down on one knee and give the dog a ear pinch....with his back to the judges...every time. Did I get a clear look..enough to toss him? Nope, but I darn sure well know what was going on.
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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by shags » Tue Nov 01, 2011 6:40 am

phermes1 wrote:You're judging JH. Handler comes to the line asking if he can carry a broke-open shotgun with him when he runs his dog. He has a blank gun; he isn't going to use the shotgun, he just wants to carry it.
Do you let him?
If not, why not?
Nope.
To even ask you'd know he has some kind of motivation to carry it, and common sense would tell you that it has something to do with the dog. That would make it a training aid. In my mind not different from a handler coming to the line carrying a flushing whip or wanting to carry a folded lead. Handlers with special requests always have a reason for them IME.

As it comes out in this thread the guy thought the dog needed the gun as a kind of motivation or cue to hunt. Any dog entered in junior hunter that needs motivation to hunt needs a little more exposure to the testing process, or a different venue entirely :roll:

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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by phermes1 » Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:08 am

Ok, thank you. Fair enough. If someone thought it was off-base, I want to hear the reasoning, not a 'just because, that's why'.

Not that I agree with you, of course. :)
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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by nikegundog » Tue Nov 01, 2011 8:32 am

shags wrote:Nope.
To even ask you'd know he has some kind of motivation to carry it, and common sense would tell you that it has something to do with the dog. That would make it a training aid. In my mind not different from a handler coming to the line carrying a flushing whip or wanting to carry a folded lead. Handlers with special requests always have a reason for them IME.

As it comes out in this thread the guy thought the dog needed the gun as a kind of motivation or cue to hunt. Any dog entered in junior hunter that needs motivation to hunt needs a little more exposure to the testing process, or a different venue entirely :roll:
Crestonegsp wrote:If he has shot over the dog every time he is in the field my first question is who shoots every bird for a dog? Second if he is only going to carry it and not shoulder why does he need it at all? I would not let him carry it but because there is no need in a JR Hunter, they do not need to be steady to wing and shot. No need to carry a shotgun in a junior, who wants to lug one around in the filed if you are not going to use it.
I've never hunt tested a dog, but a couple questions come to mind. The way this is coming across sounds like you guys think think this person is trying to intimidate the dog with the gun, is this the case? As someone who hunts and trains his dog daily, I don't see this as the case at all. My dog gets excited everyday we train, my dog goes completely nuts every time he sees me remove a shotgun from the gun cabinet, the level of excitement goes up 10x. Isn't that the point of the HT to test the dog in a hunting situation? If I walk were to walk to the line with a gun shouldered my dog would have an increased level of excitement and not be intimidated by the gun. I always thought that the point of JH was to get people and dogs involved in hunt testing and hoping they will continue to advance to higher levels, how is this hurting anyone? It is a test, not a competition right?

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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by ultracarry » Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:25 am

Nike I have to agree.

People make a big deal out of everything and usually there are no problems until someone thinks they are wronged and want to be a squeaky wheel. It's supposed to be about hunting dogs and having fun but some people need drama.

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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by Cajun Casey » Tue Nov 01, 2011 9:36 am

Actually, it's about rules and this incident is subject to interpretation. Can't say I see a clear prohibition, but I don't see a reason for the handler to carry, either. I'm sure it will land on a desk in PE before too long and result, eventually, in yet another rule.
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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by original mngsp » Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:15 am

The only purpose of this thread is that I wanted to see where my opinion stood in relation to others. Contrary to popular belief, if I'm wrong, I'd like to know about it. :)
Its a gray are of the AKC rule book. Unless its something that is blatantly dangerous or absolutely against the spirit of the sport or the event, it's a judgement call to be made by the people in charge of the course, the judges. Way to often everybody gets their undies in a bunch over the rules and we all end up spending and wasting a bunch of time and energy to what really doesnt end up being of much concern.

I would wonder why the desire to carry a shotgun in a JH test, but if no harm done and it didnt create a safety hazard, have at it.

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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by phermes1 » Tue Nov 01, 2011 10:23 am

I guess that's where this part of the rules come in
Tests are not mechanical. Judges will have to make interpretations based on their dog knowledge and the requirements of the tests. Situations will occur that are not specifically covered in the Regulations. In these instances, the Judges make their own interpretation based upon their experience to arrive at fair decisions.
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Re: AKC HT Judge question

Post by Ruffshooter » Tue Nov 01, 2011 1:13 pm

I had a MH brace mate handler that carried a plywood cut out of a gun. Judges did not care as long as he pointed it. many times the closing of a break open gun is just like saying whoa to a dog.
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