Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

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Chukar12
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Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:18 pm

My thanks to Ezzy for crafting the framework of a post that should allow the impassioned to state their case...

When I was a kid, I owned, sought and applauded a dog that could find the greatest possible amount of game for me. Sometimes it was in a hunt in the 400 acres across the hi-way, sometimes it was in 40 acres back behind the neighbors house, when I could drive it was in any place I could find. You might see me at this point as a peasant poacher hunting the land of the repressive royalty. As I matured and my resources grew and my discretionary time shrunk my habits changed, as did my hunts, and my appreciation for a dog.

Today I find those in my generation of similar mind to me IF they have hunted their entire life, those who have not, or have had a more casual and limited exposure to the hunt, may be of a different mindset on killing game. I wouldn't suggest that anybody's choice of hunting or hunting dog style is right or wrong, or that one is more advanced than another, I would suggest that EVRYBODY's view is a little different...and how people enjoy the sport is of little concern to me as long as they are safe, legal and don't cross moral boundries of reasonable common sense.

As a result, those in similar mindsets form clubs, and in some cases create tests and competitions to show their dogs. These tests and trials are administered by established rules and judged by third party experts. Therefore, they are lauded as a way of identifying animals objectively to breed to. In many of these instances the harvesting of game is disassociated with the process of working it with a dog and in fact, the "game" becomes a display of extremes. Herein we begin defining and refining style within the written standards.

I don't find that offensive or wrong, anymore than I do someone who finds pure enjoment in a pointing lab, or is fanatical about traditional European blood, or loves having a dog that points birds, runs deer and digs up gophers. I am however curious about those who do have an opinion as to why anothers choice of purpose for a dog is wrong.
“At first blush I am tempted to conclude that a satisfactory hobby must be in large degree useless, inefficient, laborious, or irrelevant.”
― Aldo Leopold
Why do people have an arguable opinion about style v efficiency when its outside their own personal purpose?

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by JWP58 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:29 pm

I'll give you a newbies opinion.

I'm completely new to upland hunting and gun dogs (my father did own many Gsp's, Ep's, and a britt, but that was when i was very young), so this whole argument is new to me.

My opinion, I dont care..."To each his own"....

What gets under my skin is how "trialers" look down thier nose at anything that they or thier organization wouldnt approve of, I dont care for thier snobby attitude basically.

I bought a bird/gun dog because 1. I wanted to start upland hunting 2. I wanted a dog that actually served a purpose 3. I enjoy watching bird/gun dogs do what they do.

I DIDNT get one to own a "champion" and brag to all my trial buddies about how great and stylish my dog is....

If that makes me a "simpleton", oh well.
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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:41 pm

I bought a bird/gun dog because 1. I wanted to start upland hunting 2. I wanted a dog that actually served a purpose 3. I enjoy watching bird/gun dogs do what they do.
Thats fair enough who could argue that..?
I DIDNT get one to own a "champion" and brag to all my trial buddies about how great and stylish my dog is....
What if someone did are they wrong?3
If that makes me a "simpleton", oh well.
Do you have an example of where someone called you this or inferred it? Or is it a matter of you feeling that way because others disagree with you and they base their disagreements on a different point of view often with a greater depth of experience? I don't think a field trialer alive cares what you do with your dog, do you? i think people try to get clarity of what you mean by this...
Oh you mean the way it should be?

Don't you think its fair that people want an explanation of that, and if they disagree with your opinion based on your limited experience is that when you refer to them as snobbish?
My opinion, I dont care..."To each his own"....
This seems incongruent with your statements above?

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Elkhunter » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:14 pm

I always love how people always complain how rude trialers are, but then how many posts do we read on here when someone attends their first trial and they were so surprised how friendly everyone was and how much fun they had! Who knew.....

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by JWP58 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:23 pm

No its not "incongruent" with my previous statements, because i dont go around telling people how things should be done.

Quite frankly that was a tounge in cheek response that apparently got some people butt hurt because they thought someone was "downing" style...lol. I apologize greatly for it, i hope nobody loses sleep tonight because of that statement.


Sorry I posted. I wont make that mistake again.......
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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by ckirsch » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:36 pm

There's certainly a level arrogance exuded from some trialers and testers, but they are the exception rather than the rule. There are an equal number of those who miss no opportunity to condemn tests and trials, most without ever having even spectated at either. There are plenty of reasons for participating in tests and trials other than the ability to brag about one's dog; meeting like-minded folks, learning more about training and handling, and watching some great dog work all come to mind. That said, I'll be the first to admit that those things can sometimes be accomplished in the hunting fields as well, but the tests and trials allow us to enjoy them year round, rather than just for a couple of months during hunting season.

At the end of the day, we probably all have a lot more in common that we do separating us. We're all entitled to our personal preferences, be it breed/venue/range/degree of polish, etc. Too bad we can't just leave it at that.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Elkhunter » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:49 pm

Then the non-trialers always follow up with the poor me posts...... :D

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:10 pm

A) There are some folks who absolutely cannot leave something alone.

(Sometimes I am one of them)

B) There are some folks that do a thing a certain way, and to them that is the right way.

(I am very much that way about certain things)

C) For some folks there is one right way and for them it is the only way.

(I learned a long time ago that I did not know everything and that there were many, many ways to skin a cat)

D) There are folks who cannot understand that someone else might just have an opinon that differs from theirs.

I have strong opinions, but try to understand someone else's point of view, because, I might just have it wrong.

E) There are folks who take this field trial stuff waaaaaaay too seriously. It, like anything else we do with our spare time...is supposed to be fun.

A+B+C+D = A really annoying PIA.


And for those who compete with their dogs...

A+B+E = Somebody I would probably not want to be braced with and who most definitely would not want to be braced with me.

The scary thing is that I am at least halfway there. :lol: :lol:


RayG

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by brad27 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:14 pm

An emoticon (English pronunciation: /ɪˈmoʊtɪkɒn/) is a facial expression pictorially represented by punctuation and letters, usually to express a writer’s mood. Emoticons are often used to alert a responder to the tenor or temper of a statement, and can change and improve interpretation of plain text.

please help yourself be understood. use them.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:47 pm

My take on this is,when you start out hunting your main objective is to put your limit in the bag.If you have a dog that helps you do that no matter his style,class,speed,endurance,or how well he might or might not be broke does not means all that much.Then as you mature & start to really enjoy the hunting experience the limit becomes much less important.That's when you start thinking about style,class,being broke,& watching the dog work becomes the main objective.You don't have to fill your limit to enjoy the hunt & the outdoors that God created,fact is there are days you might not even carry a gun but substitute a camera instead.
There are so many times I wish I had a picture of this or that,so many memories,most happy experiences but some sad,but still memories we cherish.There is no right or wrong way but as you live life your objectives change over time as they should.What is wrong with wanting a dog that is broke,has style,& class,putting the birds in the bag with a dog that looks good doing it?
I personally like a dog that is pleasing to the eye whether he is standing in my back yard or running,hunting,pointing & retrieving birds in the field. :D

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Ruffshooter » Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:54 pm

Personally: I want everything. I want a hunting dog first, and fore most. I have always loved the best performances in the woods but remember those times and pieces of work that did not look great but actually showed the true intellegence of a great bird dog. I love watching a hunting dog work its way effortlessly throught the grouse woods of Maine. I love to see that dog working a bird and the intensity in the eyes and body. But on the other hand it better be able to hold up to a judges scrutiny and mine or a bracemates best run. For me it needs to have those things no matter if it is a hunter only or a FT or a NAVHDA dog.

My hunting dogs all have FT, HT, etc. in their back grounds.

The people that bug me the most are those that purchase perfectyl good or potentially great bird dogs and the dog ends up just being a pet or show dog only. But if a dog needs rescue or has flunked out for some reason then okay be a pet only. This is kind of a thorn in my paw as my Mercy had one puppy in her life and it was of a very good NAVHDA VC/MH. It has made him a heck of a pet. He never hunted as he said he did and expected to do more. ETC. This more sticks in my craw because I never was able to get a breeding to take again.
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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:01 pm

JWP58 wrote:No its not "incongruent" with my previous statements, because i dont go around telling people how things should be done.

Quite frankly that was a tounge in cheek response that apparently got some people butt hurt because they thought someone was "downing" style...lol. I apologize greatly for it, i hope nobody loses sleep tonight because of that statement.


Sorry I posted. I wont make that mistake again.......
I hope this is tongue in cheek also. Your opinions are shared by a lot of people as well as some that will argue you are crazy. But never be ashamed of having and voicing an opinion as well as never be ashamed of changing your mind occasionally. Chukr is just using your original post as a catalise to get a worthwhile discussion going and possibly finding some answers to things we all have questioned in the past.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:14 pm

[quoteSorry I posted. I wont make that mistake again.......][/quote]

..I hope that's not the case. This was only intended to understand a point of view...I didn't propose to offend you; but to ask questions directed at your comments about why you believe what you do, and please in fairness I am more than willing to the same for my opinions...
Joe

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by brad27 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:15 pm

I'm having trouble seperating the two, (style and efficiency.)
Can someone please define efficiency in regards to this thread (and the other one.)

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by proudag08 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:20 pm

brad27 wrote:I'm having trouble seperating the two, (style and efficiency.)
Can someone please define efficiency in regards to this thread (and the other one.)
From what I gather from reading the posts, efficiency is the "meat hunter" aspect, meaning just hunting to kill a bird and eat it. The style is that plus looking good while doing it. Thats how I see the arguement.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by tommyboy72 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:53 pm

What a surprise Chukar and Ezzy once again taking it upon themselves to tell everyone else what to think and how to think it while the other one moderates it to make sure what they believe and how the believe it is interpreted correctly by the rest of us peasants.

Chukar posts a purposely leading thread in an attempt to bait someone into making a statement he does not agree with so that he might pick it apart, condescend the poster and patronize them by going back and stating how he did not "mean it that way".

Then here comes super Ezzy to the rescue to make sure everything that he and Chukar are stating remains part of the thread while anything meaningfully constructive or anti Ezzy and Chukar is removed or that the poster is chastised for his actions. I see some things never change.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Winchey » Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:12 pm

Bahahaha, I missed you Tommy. Thread has potential.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by JKP » Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:14 pm

We all want efficiency....if that weren't true, then folks would be breeding dogs that just run great, and look good on the few birds they find...no one is doing that...right????

To discuss style is meaningless because its different to many people. Some think any dog without a tail pointing at the moon is ugly and others appreciate intensity in its many forms.

The absolute measure of a dog is its ability to put game before the gun...whether you shoot it or not....and the easy birds, most dogs can handle...its the dogs that find and handle the tough birds...consistently...that's what I want and what I want to breed....I'll let others bicker over the style points.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by brad27 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:32 pm

tommyboy72 wrote:What a surprise Chukar and Ezzy once again taking it upon themselves to tell everyone else what to think and how to think it while the other one moderates it to make sure what they believe and how the believe it is interpreted correctly by the rest of us peasants.

Chukar posts a purposely leading thread in an attempt to bait someone into making a statement he does not agree with so that he might pick it apart, condescend the poster and patronize them by going back and stating how he did not "mean it that way".

Then here comes super Ezzy to the rescue to make sure everything that he and Chukar are stating remains part of the thread while anything meaningfully constructive or anti Ezzy and Chukar is removed or that the poster is chastised for his actions. I see some things never change.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:33 pm

tommyboy72
Chukar posts a purposely leading thread
True but not for the purpose you stated
to tell everyone else what to think and how to think
If you can point that out n this thread I will acquiesce, otherwise it will appear that nothing really does change, you will simply say things louder and with greater emotion, it is likely due to some inferiority complex...or maybe not, you were a successful bouncer right?

I thought you denounced posting?



JKP
breeding dogs that just run great, and look good on the few birds they find...no one is doing that...right????
...but maybe they are...no? Or is efficiency different...On the praries or in the sage and rim rock ground application may be as important as stamina nad a great radiator and in specific application pointer or similar bred dogs may be the most efficient. For the game of field trialing from horse back it is conceivable to me that breedings could progress to the point where style and run overcome the hunting dog aspect, are we seeing that?

I think another point is worthy here on my intentions...I am trialer and raise brittanys...if someone asks me what type of dog to get and they are the standard hunter with limited space, I reccomend a v-dog...and if I am in an 80 acre space I would rather hunt behind one.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by brad27 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:44 pm

For the game of field trialing from horse back it is conceivable to me that breedings could progress to the point where style and run overcome the hunting dog aspect, are we seeing that?
Inorder to win the dog must find birds and look good doing it. I don't think they are mutually exclusive. i don't see how style and run could overcome the hunting dog aspect. There was a trial recently where the opposite was true. winning dog had the most finds, but looked like _____________.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:49 pm

To discuss style is meaningless because its different to many people. Some think any dog without a tail pointing at the moon is ugly and others appreciate intensity in its many forms
This probably best answers this...
Why do people have an arguable opinion about style v efficiency when its outside their own personal purpose?

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by SetterNut » Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:52 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:My take on this is,when you start out hunting your main objective is to put your limit in the bag.If you have a dog that helps you do that no matter his style,class,speed,endurance,or how well he might or might not be broke does not means all that much.Then as you mature & start to really enjoy the hunting experience the limit becomes much less important.That's when you start thinking about style,class,being broke,& watching the dog work becomes the main objective.You don't have to fill your limit to enjoy the hunt & the outdoors that God created,fact is there are days you might not even carry a gun but substitute a camera instead.
There are so many times I wish I had a picture of this or that,so many memories,most happy experiences but some sad,but still memories we cherish.There is no right or wrong way but as you live life your objectives change over time as they should.What is wrong with wanting a dog that is broke,has style,& class,putting the birds in the bag with a dog that looks good doing it?
I personally like a dog that is pleasing to the eye whether he is standing in my back yard or running,hunting,pointing & retrieving birds in the field. :D

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by ACooper » Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:18 pm

The best bird dogs find the most birds CONSISTENTLY, no matter how they look getting there or how they look pointing them...

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:27 pm

Coop,

Some could argue that, the tone of this post has done just that I guess, albeit largely unintentionally. For instance if I was just hunting pheasants in ditches here in Ca and I had my choice between the GSP in your avatar and a pointing lab with bald spots from mange and they produced the following...three points and shots from the GSP on average for every day out and six points and shots from my mange dog...I choose the gsp to hunt behind and watch every day. Would you take 3 find Dez or 6 find mange...

and please its only an example... based on what I have hear Dez would have 7

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by ACooper » Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:33 pm

Chukar12 wrote:Coop,

Some could argue that, the tone of this post has done just that I guess, albeit largely unintentionally. For instance if I was just hunting pheasants in ditches here in Ca and I had my choice between the GSP in your avatar and a pointing lab with bald spots from mange and they produced the following...three points and shots from the GSP on average for every day out and six points and shots from my mange dog...I choose the gsp to hunt behind and watch every day. Would you take 3 find Dez or 6 find mange...

and please its only an example... based on what I have hear Dez would have 7
I think Dez could pass as a pointing lab! :lol:

I guess I should have added to my post that everything else is personnel preference, but bottom line IMO bird dogs are to find (and handle for pointing dogs) the most birds, ultimately what other measure is there? Trials and test have only come about so we don't have to take each others word for how good our dogs are.. :lol:

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:38 pm

It is the pervading law of all things organic and inorganic,
Of all things physical and metaphysical,
Of all things human and all things super-human,
Of all true manifestations of the head,
Of the heart, of the soul,
That the life is recognizable in its expression,
That form ever follows function. This is the law
So I think the argument can fairly be applied to this as well...If a dog shows characteristics in its form that collectively and reasonably can be applied to function this is where the argument for breeding comes from. The original quote above is from the world of architecture but we have applied it to biology...

So does a high head on point show a dog with a propensity to stand birds at a distance?

Does a high cracking tail show intensity and independence? Does it show confidence?

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:39 pm

Trials and test have only come about so we don't have to take each others word for how good our dogs are..
very true .... I think I exagerate dogs worse than fish :D

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by jcbuttry8 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:41 pm

I love some of the threads that get started here. Especially, if it gets to Tommy enough to get him to type.

Here is my bashing newbie trialer point of view:

I have raised several different breeds of dogs over the years. They were all very good meat dogs. They served their purpose. They filled a bag quite nice and made some very good, stylish points while doing it. I loved those dogs. They in there own rights were some of the best dogs out there. They learned on their own no thanks to my great skills in training to circle a covey that was breaking out. They kept the birds at bay until the calvary rode in to drop some treats from the sky. They were smart, effecient, and stylish.

Now on to my points for trialers. Yes I am now at an age where I like the meat but want and expect more from my pup. I have gone to trials and have seen the higher levels that these dogs can and will perform at. These same trialers love to hunt while not trialing and seem to be able to do it quite well with an even more stylish dog, and yes with even a dog that can scour the country side even when that country side is a county over. These same dogs are effecient too.

My take on the somewhat two sides I see on this site:

Most of your trialers get on here and make comments regarding both the hunting aspect and the trialing aspect. They seem to be able to do this due to the experience they have at both. I also see several people here bash those same trialers but have never seen much less tried both sides of the spectrum of the dog. Why not. I just think that if you have never been to a trial or have trained a dog to reach that higher level then you should shut up and just read the post. If you have no experience to argue, why do you bash those that do. To say that trialers are wrong or arrogant with never being around them is wrong.

This last weekend after Kona finished her brace she came in covered in blood. Not knowing where it was coming from, I freaked out. There had to have been at least 4 or 5 people come over and offer there medical kits to help me patch up a small cut on her ear. You know those arrogant selfabsorbed a$$es. I have yet been to a trial where these horrible trialers run at. So, please by all means send over the premium and I will attend it, heck you can join me and we can meet them together. Problem is, very few exist. Until then I will continue to trial at the events near me where any question i have is met with a smile and have learned several new tricks to train my dog with. Then I will use those same nasty people to hunt with. Can't wait to take my stylish dog out and watch her efficiently fill my limit.

Joe

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Retiredbirddogman » Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:59 pm

Views on what constitutes "style" change over time as well. I.E. when a setter was trained/bred to lay down so a net could be thrown over the game. Did this setter not have "style"? I may have been laying down in a way that the hunter thought was beautiful because it was efficient. A Setter standing tall and not doing the job they wanted he/she to would not have been viewed as having great style at that time in bird dog history? JMO
What do you think?

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:04 pm

Views on what constitutes "style" change over time as well. I.E. when a setter was trained/bred to lay down so a net could be thrown over the game. Did this setter not have "style"? I may have been laying down in a way that the hunter thought was beautiful because it was efficient. A Setter standing tall and not doing the job they wanted he/she to would not have been viewed as having great style at that time in bird dog history? JMO
What do you think?
...that has to be true...
Training has changed dramatically as well....50 years ago, only dogs that could tolerate breaking made it...now we 'wash out" very few because technique and equipment have advanced

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by tommyboy72 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:14 pm

Joe, meaning jcbuttry8, you know you and I grew up together and we are more like brothers than friends so I am going to post just for you. Joe do you remember our conversation a couple of days ago about how you were going to a Brittany trial 2 hours away but you were told there was no sense in it because no matter what you did your dog would not be placed because it was a Pointer and not a Brittany so you decided otherwise? I believe you were told this by several more experienced trialers and trainers who had been in the game for several years. Do you remember telling me how much everyone you were trialing with told you how special your dog is and how well she is doing at such an early age? Then remember when people kept asking what kennel she came from? Not who bred her or where she came from but what kennel because an individual like myself just a plain old hunter couldn't have bred a nice dog like that I guess. Do you remember our several conversations about how you were not going to hunt Kona because you did not want to ruin her for trialing and how we discussed you needing to get her on some at least partially wild birds. This is how a hunters sometimes see trialers and their dogs.

After the last several weeks talking to very experienced field trialers about their dogs, other peoples dogs, trials, judges etc. I believe I would trust a field trial judge about as much as I trust Obama. So while trial dogs are proven against a class of their peers, is it always fair and impartial?

In turn though I really like the dogs that trialers turn out not because of their titles but because of the physical and mental makeups, stamina, breeding, immune systems, general overall health, etc.

I guess my point is that there are perceptions of field trialers out there like this because they exist against and by plain old hunters like myself.

Chuckar I would never call you a snob, an ahole maybe, condescending, patronizing, an elitist perhaps but not snobbish. I have yet to meet a dog person who is snobbish.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by CHJIII » Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:20 pm

I love my dogs. Some I should have trialed... others not. Just a choice I made. But, then again, I love my dogs.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by mcbosco » Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:26 pm

When it comes to judging style, how important is (or should be) a dog's adherence to the breed standard?

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Cajun Casey » Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:29 pm

mcbosco wrote:When it comes to judging style, how important is (or should be) a dog's adherence to the breed standard?
What breed standard?
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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by brad27 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:31 pm

mcbosco wrote:When it comes to judging style, how important is (or should be) a dog's adherence to the breed standard?
In a perfect world it should matter.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by mcbosco » Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:34 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
mcbosco wrote:When it comes to judging style, how important is (or should be) a dog's adherence to the breed standard?
What breed standard?
I will be more specific, the breed standard adopted by the national club.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by jcbuttry8 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:55 pm

I hear ya tommy. Every bit of how a dog performs at a trial is by a judge. What one judge feels is awesome another judge doesn't place. That same judge more than likely has a dog running in another event at that same trial. So, all you can hope for is a true judgement of the judges at hand, and hope for judge that judges the dog not a breed.

As for the britt trial, I thought it over and have put kona in the trial. I will not let someone keep me from running my dog because they tend to be biased towards a particular breed. Whether she places or not. She will run. May out run most and may look better than some or all. If the judges choose to dock her due to her tail, then that is how it is. I will not be swayed due to some club that has a rep for pushing for a specific breed.

As far as hunting is concerned, I will hunt Kona. After, running her today over in the bird fields in jersey that were used during the youth hunt, she never got more than 80 yards out on me and pointed three birds. Then brought her back to PA and ran her in a field that has no birds and watched her stretch out to 250 in a blink of an eye. A smart dog can handle any situation.

joe

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by brad27 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:35 pm

Good for you. Hunt that dog and trial that dog! If anything, it's good experience for you and the dog.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Cajun Casey » Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:04 pm

mcbosco wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote:
mcbosco wrote:When it comes to judging style, how important is (or should be) a dog's adherence to the breed standard?
What breed standard?
I will be more specific, the breed standard adopted by the national club.
No national breed clubs in The Field.
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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by RoostersMom » Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:08 pm

We teach the following progression as a commonly accepted behavior of hunters. I wonder how this would be written in "dog ownership progression" as it relates to this thread?

SHOOTER STAGE
The hunter talks about satisfaction with hunting being closely tied to being able to “get shooting.” Often the beginning duck hunter will relate he had an excellent day if he got in a lot of shooting. The beginning deer hunter will talk about the number of shooting opportunities. Missing game means little to hunters in this phase. A beginning hunter wants to pull the trigger and test the capability of his firearm. A hunter in this stage may be a dangerous hunting partner.

LIMITING OUT STAGE
A hunter still talks about satisfaction gained from shooting. But what seems more important is measuring success through the killing of game and the number of birds or animals shot. Limiting out, or filling a tag, is the absolute measure. Do not let your desire to limit out be stronger than the need for safe behavior at all times.

TROPHY STAGE
Satisfaction is described in terms of selectivity of game. A duck hunter might take only greenheads. A deer hunter looks for one special deer. A hunter might travel far to find a real trophy animal. Shooting opportunity and skills become less important.

METHOD STAGE
This hunter has all the special equipment. Hunting has become one of the most important things in his life. Satisfaction comes from the method that enables the hunter to take game. Taking game is important, but second to how it is taken. This hunter will study long and hard how best to pick a blind site, lay out decoys, and call in waterfowl. A deer hunter will go one on one with a white-tailed deer, studying sign, tracking, and the life habits of the deer. Often, the hunter will handicap himself by hunting only with black powder firearms or bow and arrow. Bagging game, or limiting, still is understood as being a necessary part of the hunt during this phase.

SPORTSMAN STAGE
As a hunter ages and after many years of hunting, he “mellows out.” Satisfaction now can be found in the total hunting experience. Being in the field, enjoying the company of friends and family, and seeing nature outweigh the need for taking game.

Not all hunters go through all the stages, or go through them in that particular order. It is also possible for hunters who pursue several species of game to be in different stages with regard to each species. Some hunters feel that role models of good sportsmen, training, or reading books or magazines helped them pass more quickly through some stages.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:34 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:
mcbosco wrote:
Cajun Casey wrote: What breed standard?
I will be more specific, the breed standard adopted by the national club.
No national breed clubs in The Field.
I think you are wrong. There are no judgment of physical standards but the National Clubs sponsor many trials.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by slistoe » Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:30 pm

Ezzy, can you point out how the Brittany breed standard should be used in judging style of the Brittany at a field trial?

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Wenaha » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:43 am

ezzy333 wrote:[
I think you are wrong. There are no judgment of physical standards but the National Clubs sponsor many trials.

Ezzy
Neither the FDSB nor the American Field is in the business of formalizing any breed standards, regardless of what clubs sponsor what trials. I think this is the right approach. Form follows function, not fancy.
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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by tasi devil » Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:16 am

brad27 wrote:I'm having trouble seperating the two, (style and efficiency.)
Can someone please define efficiency in regards to this thread (and the other one.)
Style is, looking good in an Armani suit & Louis Vuitton sunglasses. (yeh he runs nice)
Efficiency is, having big pockets in your hoody where you can put 'stuff' & cheap petrol station sunglasses.(am i gunna eat tonight)
sometimes the two merge & you can start braggin !

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by displaced_texan » Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:01 am

mcbosco wrote:When it comes to judging style, how important is (or should be) a dog's adherence to the breed standard?
Style is subjective.

I like my Pocket Pointers.
I have English Pointers because they don't ever grow up either...

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by SHORTFAT » Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:14 am

I have a house pet that hunts for me... She was a rescue from Trialer stock... I have found that those who do Field Trials can be a wealth of information on dog behavior and training. They have been very helpful and willing to share their information with me... I have also met some unkind folks both Trialers and Hunters. I think people are people no matter what they are doing... Good and bad. Honestly I think if our dogs were lying around listening to some of our arguments about Trialers vs Non Trialers they would probably yawn and roll their eyes... I like my dog... she suits me & that's what counts.


I have seen some dogs that will stand on their hind legs and speak latin, but mine won't... still love her...
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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by northern cajun » Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:40 am

Wenaha wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:[
I think you are wrong. There are no judgment of physical standards but the National Clubs sponsor many trials.

Ezzy
Neither the FDSB nor the American Field is in the business of formalizing any breed standards, regardless of what clubs sponsor what trials. I think this is the right approach. Form follows function, not fancy.

Form does not follow function! That is always miss stated, that is Lamarckian evolution.

You need to run really fast so you get longer legs, nope not how evolution or changing a breed trait works. You have longer legs by some mutation or selective breeding that allow you to run faster (function follows form) Darwinian Evolution by natural selection. Pick any trait it always goes form first, then function second. The best example is, you cant see if you dont have eyes so which is it. Form or Function first? No brainer.


I like style and efficiency and if I may those FT's stock produce some of the best hunting dogs around.
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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by displaced_texan » Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:42 am

northern cajun wrote:
Wenaha wrote:
ezzy333 wrote:[
I think you are wrong. There are no judgment of physical standards but the National Clubs sponsor many trials.

Ezzy
Neither the FDSB nor the American Field is in the business of formalizing any breed standards, regardless of what clubs sponsor what trials. I think this is the right approach. Form follows function, not fancy.

Form does not follow function! That is always miss stated, that is Lamarckian evolution.

You need to run really fast so you get longer legs, nope not how evolution or changing a breed trait works. You have longer legs by some mutation or selective breeding that allow you to run faster (function follows form) Darwinian Evolution by natural selection. Pick any trait it always goes form first, then function second. The best example is, you cant see if you dont have eyes so which is it. Form or Function first? No brainer.


I like style and efficiency and if I may those FT's stock produce some of the best hunting dogs around.
When I'm making selections form follows function :mrgreen:
I have English Pointers because they don't ever grow up either...

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Wenaha » Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:56 am

northern cajun wrote: Form does not follow function! That is always miss stated, that is Lamarckian evolution.

You need to run really fast so you get longer legs, nope not how evolution or changing a breed trait works. You have longer legs by some mutation or selective breeding that allow you to run faster (function follows form) Darwinian Evolution by natural selection.[b/] Pick any trait it always goes form first, then function second. The best example is, you cant see if you dont have eyes so which is it. Form or Function first? No brainer.

I like style and efficiency and if I may those FT's stock produce some of the best hunting dogs around.


Thank you for making my point again. Behavior does not alter genetics, but genetics can alter behavior. Selective breeding - enforced by nature eliminating detrimental characteristics or altering characteristics by human intervention in breeding. Dog breeding should be based on performance, not a written physical breed standard. This is why field trials are important. Breeders are trying to breed better bird dogs, and the only way to do this is by testing performance. This is self-evident.Jean-Batiste Lamarck does not enter into the equation.

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