Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:33 pm

JKP wrote: [ We've even come so far as to tell the guy whose dog that puts a lot of game in the bag...that he's a game hog...and that's not what hunting is about....but then maybe his dog doesn't have enough style which would mean he's not really hunting...he just doesn't know it.

Yeah...time to lock this one.
No one has said this. What was said that shooting your limit is not the end-all of judging a successful hunt.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by proudag08 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:37 pm

nikegundog wrote:
proudag08 wrote:Not time to lock it...

As a spectator in this debate I would like to see the discussion continue. I have my opinions sure, but I keep them to myself because I have no credibility and or experience to back it up.

Watching the two sides debate is good for those of us that arent really on one side or the other. Also, it helps me pass the time at work! :roll:
Well said, except for that credibility or experience part that may or may not be true. :D
Oh, I'm not saying that you "Yay-hoos" have any of that either, I just enjoy the banter!!! :lol:

**Sarcasm Disclosure:** I'm kidding of course...

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by adogslife » Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:37 pm

What I am saying is labs are bred to a higher level of retrieving ability than vdogs and so a well bred retriever should perform better than a well bred Vdog.
A well bred vdog will have just as much retrieve desire.
Marking ability,hands down, goes to retreivers.

No one need require their vdog to pose as a retriever breed. If that were the case they should get a retreiver breed.

A vdog can effeciently perfom as solid as a retreiver and have just as much style.

I am partial to imported vdog blood, tho.

Maybe a clear definiton of style and effeciency needs to be established, so we are all on the same page.
Seems there is more opinion being thrown around and no actual doing what is claimed to be fact.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Coveyrise64 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:40 pm

proudag08 wrote:Not time to lock it...

As a spectator in this debate I would like to see the discussion continue. I have my opinions sure, but I keep them to myself because I have no credibility and or experience to back it up.

Watching the two sides debate is good for those of us that arent really on one side or the other. Also, it helps me pass the time at work! :roll:
Don't be so hard on yourself, many here are worse off than you..... :roll:

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by rschmeider » Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:49 pm

gpblitz wrote:
Birddogz wrote:I will quote a conversation we had some time ago....."Many FT dogs just like to hear the wind whistle through their ears, put them in a blind and have them retrieve ducks and geese, throw them on a chukar hill the next day, pheasant sloughs the next, grouse woods the next. If you do this with one of my dogs and a FT dog that is from the East coast you will see the difference in breeding." I from that point on knew he was a smart guy.
I would have concidered that a very boostfull statement. All about me. A little arogant, maybe. Not a statement I'd take to the bank.
Where do you have Grouse woods in ND????Come on...You shut your car door to hard and 100 plus birds fly out of the field...Have you ever hunted Ruff on the east coast???.Ditch chickhens rather run than fly..Flusher) You don't even need a pointing dog...Ive shoot pen raised phez on CRP land in the west.I know when a phez had a blinder in it's nose( i do taxidermy).. Wild birds LOL...I 'll put you up/down with my East coast bred FT dog in WV on ruffs....We will find out who dogs better..Don't sing it ,Bring it :P .I'm sick of hearing you cut up east coast dogs..

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Dirtysteve » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:08 pm

This is one of the most hilarious threads I have read in a very long time.
But I have got to go and fill my game bag on some wild chukars with an FC, AFC and MH that are in my kennel. Maybe on the way back I will stop and jump shoot some ducks. Something I really enjoy doing ( and yes they retreive them). I will be back to read some more, Please continue...

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Ridge-Point » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:17 pm

In my opinion a dog cannot be stylish without being efficient. Style is the cherry on top, but you don't need that cherry to eat your ice cream.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Winchey » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:20 pm

Depends on who you are, for some the birds in the bag are the cherry :wink:

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by proudag08 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:23 pm

Wenaha wrote:Lots of chest thumping going on here.
Understatement of the century!!!

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Garrison » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:33 pm

proudag08 wrote:
Wenaha wrote:Lots of chest thumping going on here.
Understatement of the century!!!
Oh come on, you act like you don't like watching a slow moving train wreck. I don't see any other posts that got 3,000 looks in three days.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by adogslife » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:59 pm

Garrison wrote:
But no VC is going to track like a Bloodhound, clear a field like a Pointer and retrieve like A Lab at the top of their respective games.

NAVHDA VCs don't track, they are a foothunter's companion, they should have a soild retrieve.

What is it about a retreiver that folks believe a good vdog can't retrieve as well?

You don't have to be a VC to be on top of the NAVHDA game.
A UT prized dog is a good dog.

The title of the thread is efficiency vs style.
Being at the top of a particular game, or over the top as I am reading, does not equate to an effecient hunter and does not equate to style. A dog who hunts and does not raise the hunter's blood pressure while do so is effecient. :D
Effeciency can be measured. Style is opinion.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by proudag08 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:15 pm

Garrison wrote:
proudag08 wrote:
Wenaha wrote:Lots of chest thumping going on here.
Understatement of the century!!!
Oh come on, you act like you don't like watching a slow moving train wreck. I don't see any other posts that got 3,000 looks in three days.
Ha ha thats fair!

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Garrison » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:24 pm

VC and a Prize 1 dogs are amazing bird dogs, I have been fortunate enough to hunt over them for the past 6 years two Griffons and a Shorthair. We all know they are a lot more than a just a jack of all trades. Could of had a pup for free but wasn't the style of dog I enjoy. Just because there are other games that don't suit your style doesn't make any less of yours or mine.

Some are happy just hunting and training a bird dog for their own pleasure and are not as concerned with titles, well until it is time to buy another pup.

Thanks for doing all the hard work for us.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by slistoe » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:24 pm

adogslife wrote:
What is it about a retreiver that folks believe a good vdog can't retrieve as well?
If your measure of retrieve is to pick stuff up and return with it then every single breed of dog that has ever competed in obedience would qualify.
If your measure is to push the limits of what is possible in memory, marking, distance, terrain - every conceivable aspect of retrieving, then the Labrador has no peers. They have moved far beyond what is commonly necessary to the point that common is mundane.
adogslife wrote:You don't have to be a VC to be on top of the NAVHDA game.
A UT prized dog is a good dog.
Hmmmm... what is the purpose of the VC then if it is not intended to be a cut above?
adogslife wrote:The title of the thread is efficiency vs style.
Being at the top of a particular game, or over the top as I am reading, does not equate to an effecient hunter and does not equate to style. A dog who hunts and does not raise the hunter's blood pressure while do so is effecient. :D
Effeciency can be measured. Style is opinion.
Sorry, but your "measure" is nothing more than opinion. What raises your blood pressure may be just right for mine - or may raise mine for entirely the opposite reason.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by adogslife » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:49 pm

If your measure is to push the limits of what is possible in memory, marking, distance, terrain - every conceivable aspect of retrieving,
I train to T, TT , walking baseball and water force. Does an effecient hunting dog need more than that?
what is the purpose of the VC then if it is not intended to be a cut above?
Not a cut above hunting

Venues are games, the proof is in the effeciency of the hunt.


I still don't have an answer as to what consitutes style.

We all have the dog we trained.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by JKP » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:52 pm

VC is a great accomplishment and takes an amazing dog to excell in all of the disciplines required. But no VC is going to track like a Bloodhound, clear a field like a Pointer and retrieve like A Lab at the top of their respective games. I would be the first inline to by one. What is wrong with just being on top of the NAVHDA game?
NAVHDA is modeled on the German "Gebrauchshund" principle...translated it means "usefullness"...a dog that can be used effectively in many different hunting situations. The idea of pursuing a specialty area to its absolute pinnacle is an English/American concept....having dogs run a mile in front of the horse and hold point until found....a retriever running 500 yds, turning and sitting on the whistle and then taking a left over for another 200 yds...and such. The concept of a hunting dog in Europe is a far more practical one...dogs are bred and trained for what is actually needed. Style has nothing to do with efficiency or in some cases with intensity (could there possibly be anything more intense than a wolf stalking/pointing its prey?). We have created the concept of style much like Versace creates clothing fads. What can not be created is a dog's ability to find game...they either do or they don't....under tough conditions or not...consistently or not...just a bit more often than other dogs...day in and day out...year after year. So style is what we say it is (lots of opinions and variations and acceptance of what style is) but efficiency can't be man created....

I'll breed for efficiency...the ability to put game in front of the gun under all conditions better than other dogs....and I'll bet that dogs that do, don't look like cr&p doing it. Style is what girls discuss at the beauty parlor....

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by slistoe » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:55 pm

adogslife wrote:
If your measure is to push the limits of what is possible in memory, marking, distance, terrain - every conceivable aspect of retrieving,
I train to T, TT , walking baseball and water force. Does an effecient hunting dog need more than that?
Sometimes.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Garrison » Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:06 pm

gpblitz wrote:
Garrison wrote:Just because there are other games that don't suit your style doesn't make any less of yours or mine.
IMO, That's Fact... Don't judge a venue that you haven't spent some time playing.

I don't, I judge the dogs the venue decided were prize 1 one with a perfect score and VC, I will check with you next time I have an opinion about my family's dogs if you like. Like all previous post great dogs by any measure.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by ACooper » Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:22 pm

RayGubernat wrote: Like it or not,trials are the ONLY meaure of a bird dog which have credibility.

RayG
Trials are the only measure? Which trials? AF, AKC, NSTRA, or any of the others? Planted bird or wild bird? AA or Shooting dog or AKC Gundog?

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by DonF » Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:59 pm

OK. In an attempt to hi-jack this endless thred, what is a finished dog to you?
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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by adogslife » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:21 pm

what is a finished dog to you?
Finished does not imply more effecient or more style.

Out of curiosity?
If effeciency and style is being at the top of the game
what pitch is used to sell all the FT wash-outs?

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by LincolnAlexander » Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:01 pm

Interesting discussion so far... will share my personal perspecitves.

I don't believe Field Trials are ruining hunting dogs when you consider that many great hunting dogs have Field Champions in their pedigree, or are Field Champions themselves... that is not to say that there aren't some breeders who focus on run to the extent that it is detrimental to other qualities in a hunting dog.

I also don't believe that Field Trials are the only measure of a good bird dog. I think that different venues tell me different things about a dog. Whether it is Field Trials, NAVHDA, NSTRA, Cover Trials, Hunt Tests,etc I think each of them has value. No doubt there are many great hunting dogs out there without a title to their name or in their pedigree, I would not dispute that... however the issue boils down in some cases to who considers them a great hunting dog? Even being relatively new to the bird dog world, I have seen some people talk up a dog they think is great, and it is just not... at all. So whatever the venue, reviewing the results gives me some idea about a dogs abilities and what an impartial party thinks of them (granted none of those systems are perfect.)

As for Style vs Efficiency... I won't lie, I enjoy hunting more for getting to watch my dog work, then getting my bag limit. That is what provides me with me with the most enjoyment, and I don't see why having an efficient dog who is fun to watch/stylish is wrong; if you feel different, I won't gainsay you, its up to you to decide what gives you the most enjoyment :) .
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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by RayGubernat » Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:32 pm

Birddogz wrote:
RayGubernat wrote:Tommyboy -

Like it or not,trials are the ONLY meaure of a bird dog which have credibility. I can say i have the greates bird dogs in the county/state/country, but tht ia only MY opinion. I can say they can do this and do that, but again...one man's word about his own dogs.

Does anyone here really believe a used car salesman's pitch?? With dogs is is somewhat the same thing.

There are kennels which have a well deserved reputation for producing quality animals, and in ev ery case, they have earned that reputation and work hard at keeping it. Many have been at it for years and years.

One of the ways to GET that reputation for producing quality animals is to compete successfully(in avenue which will showcase the type of dog you afre trying to produce) because now it ain't just one man's opinion any more. When you have that silly blue ribbon in your hand, you now have the opinion of unbiased strangers that your dog was the best they saw that day.

Oh and by the way...FWIW, I saw that little dog from you kennel. Nicely built pup with a great disposition. Sorry I did not get to see it run but heard it did a fine job.

RayG
Bob Farris would disagree with you completely. In fact he believes that FTs are ruining breeds. I have never talked to anyone who is more scientific and thorough than Bob. The guy has developed an incredible hunting breed.
I have absolutely no idea who Bob Farris is or was. I only have your word that he has developed an incredible hunting breed... and frankly, that ain't worth a whole lot to me either because I have absolutely no idea, based on your posts, whether or not you know what a good bird dog should do. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. An unsupported opinion is just that.

I stand by my statement. The surest way to gain credibility as to the quality of your bird dogs is to trial or test them and succeed. Anyone can say they have the best and perhaps they actually do. Having unbiased, independent judges evaluate your breeding stock in a competitive environment is a risky undertaking, but if they succeed, it ain't just your opinion (or your sales pitch) anymore.

RayG

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by SCT » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:00 pm

I don't know diddley...but I do know all of my hunting dog's pedigrees will have CH in there several times. And NC as much as possible. I'm thankful for high performance tests like the National Championship 3 hour test. Just sayin'

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by RayGubernat » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:12 pm

ACooper wrote:
RayGubernat wrote: Like it or not,trials are the ONLY meaure of a bird dog which have credibility.

RayG
Trials are the only measure? Which trials? AF, AKC, NSTRA, or any of the others? Planted bird or wild bird? AA or Shooting dog or AKC Gundog?
The question is "which trials". I will add that I should have included tests as well...that was my error.

The answer is: "that very much depends on what it is you are looking for in a canine companion."

American Field All Age field trial credentials in the dog's parentage might not be particularly relevant if one is looking for a dog that will be expected to occasionally retrieve ducks and geese.

Navhda prize 1 scores in NA and UT testing of the dog's parentage might not be particularly relevant if one is looking for a dog to hunt quail in southern Alabama.

If one is looking for a dog to hunt preserve birds with, would not NSTRA titles in the dog's parentage be a valuable indicator orf the ability of the dog to do what it is you will be asking from it?

My point is simply this...

If the issue is credibility...whom do you have an easier time believing??

Is it the kennel owner who is trying to sell you a pup or the trial or test result, conducted by an independent organization an adjudicated by unbiased , experienced third parties?

C'mon now guys. This really is not worth arguing over. Even if the answer is inconvenient...we all know which it is. Just think about that used car salesman and what happens when you ask them for an extended warranty. :lol: :lol:

RayG

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:27 pm

Titles of any kind are very important if you haven't had the opportunity to see the dog yourself. If you have then you may not need to see the titles but that does not take away their usefullness to other people.

Ray is absolutely right, pick the ones that are important to you when you have a dog under consideration for any activity and you want to know as much as you can about it.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by brad27 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:30 pm

Credibility refers to the objective and subjective components of the believability of a source or message.



Incase someone needs the definition.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by ACooper » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:42 pm

RayGubernat wrote:
ACooper wrote:
RayGubernat wrote: Like it or not,trials are the ONLY meaure of a bird dog which have credibility.

RayG
Trials are the only measure? Which trials? AF, AKC, NSTRA, or any of the others? Planted bird or wild bird? AA or Shooting dog or AKC Gundog?
The question is "which trials". I will add that I should have included tests as well...that was my error.

The answer is: "that very much depends on what it is you are looking for in a canine companion."

American Field All Age field trial credentials in the dog's parentage might not be particularly relevant if one is looking for a dog that will be expected to occasionally retrieve ducks and geese.

Navhda prize 1 scores in NA and UT testing of the dog's parentage might not be particularly relevant if one is looking for a dog to hunt quail in southern Alabama.

If one is looking for a dog to hunt preserve birds with, would not NSTRA titles in the dog's parentage be a valuable indicator orf the ability of the dog to do what it is you will be asking from it?

My point is simply this...

If the issue is credibility...whom do you have an easier time believing??

Is it the kennel owner who is trying to sell you a pup or the trial or test result, conducted by an independent organization an adjudicated by unbiased , experienced third parties?

C'mon now guys. This really is not worth arguing over. Even if the answer is inconvenient...we all know which it is. Just think about that used car salesman and what happens when you ask them for an extended warranty. :lol: :lol:

RayG

That is what I hoped you meant... I agree.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by birddogger » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:51 pm

I don't know why it has to be style vs. efficiency.....The best dogs are efficient and do it with style. Granted, what one person considers style may not be what another person does but in my experience the most efficient dogs were also very stylish. I know there are efficient dogs that don't have much style but I am speaking in general. But IMO, a good dog has intensity around birds and that intensity will translate into style and efficiency with the proper training and experience.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by brad27 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:58 pm

DonF wrote:OK. In an attempt to hi-jack this endless thred, what is a finished dog to you?
For me, a finished dog is one that is steady to wing and shot and will retrieve. Now, just because a dog is "finished" doesn't mean training is "done."

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by northern cajun » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:03 pm

Simple but I do like this thread.

Style is subjective its like looking at women everybody has their opinions and you can't argue with their personal choice.

Efficiency is a measurable concept, quantitatively determined by the ratio of output to input. This is much more clear cut. No room for subjectiveness. This is a metric.
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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by JKP » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:07 pm

I enjoy hunting more for getting to watch my dog work, then getting my bag limit.
How much do you get to enjoy with the dog 500 yds ahead of you?? :?:

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by brad27 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:10 pm

JKP wrote:
I enjoy hunting more for getting to watch my dog work, then getting my bag limit.
How much do you get to enjoy with the dog 500 yds ahead of you?? :?:
More then you'd think. :D

Which is better, vanilla or chocolate ice cream?

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by LincolnAlexander » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:27 pm

JKP wrote:
I enjoy hunting more for getting to watch my dog work, then getting my bag limit.
How much do you get to enjoy with the dog 500 yds ahead of you?? :?:
I appreciate that my dog is able to adjust his range to the cover we are working. He doesn't often work out that far, but he has done some really nice big casts this year... and in open terrain there is something special about seeing your dog cast out hard and fast working cover nicely. Other times he works at a moderate or close range, and I have the opportunity to enjoy other aspects.
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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by birddog1968 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:11 pm

JKP wrote:
I enjoy hunting more for getting to watch my dog work, then getting my bag limit.
How much do you get to enjoy with the dog 500 yds ahead of you?? :?:

What part of the country do you live and hunt in JKP, can you not imagine a landscape where a 500 yrd dog is an asset? or have you never
seen a 500 yrd dog that will close up and hunt thick crp? It's not a fantasy or even uncommon.
The second kick from a mule is of very little educational value - from Wing and Shot.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Birddogz » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:22 pm

rschmeider wrote:
gpblitz wrote:
Birddogz wrote:I will quote a conversation we had some time ago....."Many FT dogs just like to hear the wind whistle through their ears, put them in a blind and have them retrieve ducks and geese, throw them on a chukar hill the next day, pheasant sloughs the next, grouse woods the next. If you do this with one of my dogs and a FT dog that is from the East coast you will see the difference in breeding." I from that point on knew he was a smart guy.
I would have concidered that a very boostfull statement. All about me. A little arogant, maybe. Not a statement I'd take to the bank.
Where do you have Grouse woods in ND????Come on...You shut your car door to hard and 100 plus birds fly out of the field...Have you ever hunted Ruff on the east coast???.Ditch chickhens rather run than fly..Flusher) You don't even need a pointing dog...Ive shoot pen raised phez on CRP land in the west.I know when a phez had a blinder in it's nose( i do taxidermy).. Wild birds LOL...I 'll put you up/down with my East coast bred FT dog in WV on ruffs....We will find out who dogs better..Don't sing it ,Bring it :P .I'm sick of hearing you cut up east coast dogs..

Oh, that is funny stuff. I grew up in Ohio in the 80s. Shot grouse in OH,WV,PA,KY,NY,ME,MI,WI,MN,ND in the turtle mountains, Ontario (WAWA) Since then, I have lived in KS,NE, and now ND. You couldn't hold my son's belt when it comes to real hunting. WV dogs have problems often, because they are inbred. :D I see and kill more birds in one season than you do in 10. Don't be angry, learn. Stop being so foolish. Look at the freezer. :lol: WV bird dogs, funny stuff.
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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Birddogz » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:25 pm

northern cajun wrote:Simple but I do like this thread.

Style is subjective its like looking at women everybody has their opinions and you can't argue with their personal choice.

Efficiency is a measurable concept, quantitatively determined by the ratio of output to input. This is much more clear cut. No room for subjectiveness. This is a metric.
You are absolutely right. Kcals in and out. I bet my dogs burn less Kcals than most to kill birds, that makes them FAR more efficient. Great point, efficiency depends on spent energy. :wink:
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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:30 pm

Ali was the Greatest of ALL TIME Boxer but Birddogz the Greatest of ALL TIME birdhunter & owns the GREATEST of ALL TIME bird dogs. :lol:
Just ask him!!
Nothing else to say as that says it ALL!! :lol:

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by brad27 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:32 pm

Birddogz wrote:
northern cajun wrote:Simple but I do like this thread.

Style is subjective its like looking at women everybody has their opinions and you can't argue with their personal choice.

Efficiency is a measurable concept, quantitatively determined by the ratio of output to input. This is much more clear cut. No room for subjectiveness. This is a metric.
You are absolutely right. Kcals in and out. I bet my dogs burn less Kcals than most to kill birds, that makes them FAR more efficient. Great point, efficiency depends on spent energy. :wink:
I'll bet I could kill just as many bids without a dog where you hunt. What does that say about you dogs?

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Birddogz » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:38 pm

brad27 wrote:
Birddogz wrote:
northern cajun wrote:Simple but I do like this thread.

Style is subjective its like looking at women everybody has their opinions and you can't argue with their personal choice.

Efficiency is a measurable concept, quantitatively determined by the ratio of output to input. This is much more clear cut. No room for subjectiveness. This is a metric.
You are absolutely right. Kcals in and out. I bet my dogs burn less Kcals than most to kill birds, that makes them FAR more efficient. Great point, efficiency depends on spent energy. :wink:
I'll bet I could kill just as many bids without a dog where you hunt. What does that say about you dogs?
You dogs? Bids? What the heck does that mean? My dogs are in more birds than your dogs in 10 years. You couldn't touch them. Just facts. Don't be angry because you live where there are few birds. Move, or stop with the ridiculous talk. Gotta go, going hunting tomorrow. double digit waterfowl, and double digit upland, just another day in God's country. :D
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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by slistoe » Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:05 pm

Birddogz, you think you know so much about hunting and dogs. Last time there was a blowhard on these forums that was not quite your equal I made him an offer. Come on up and we will hunt Sharptail. We will hunt a couple of sections of land that I have not been to yet that year. We will count shooting opportunities on birds. You bring all your dogs and some friends dogs if you like. I will leave all my dogs at home and hunt dogless.

The real fact of the matter is that no one really NEEDS a dog to kill birds. A lot of folks around here regard a dog - any dog - as a considerable hindrance to the actual bagging of game birds.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Birddogz » Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:18 pm

That makes complete sense. Your dogs and your friends dogs would be a complete waste of time when it comes to killing birds. Nothing could be more clear. :D Come down to ND any time. We hunt Sharpies, Huns, Phez, waterfowl, etc. Our dogs improve our odds, you could learn a thing or two. :lol:
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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by brad27 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:29 pm

You dogs? Bids? What the heck does that mean? My dogs are in more birds than your dogs in 10 years. You couldn't touch them. Just facts. Don't be angry because you live where there are few birds. Move, or stop with the ridiculous talk. Gotta go, going hunting tomorrow. double digit waterfowl, and double digit upland, just another day in God's country.
It's always nice when the only thing a person can say is you spelled a word wrong. Let me guess, did I miss a coma also? maybe it was a period. I wasn't aware you knew about the bird numbers in southern California. I do all the hunting I want here. ALL. YouR dogs see more birds then mine. Congratulations. They also have more ice in Antarctica. What's next? You want to see who carries a bigger shot gun?

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:33 am

Birddogz, A Private message has been sent. Read it carefully.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:36 am

brad27 wrote:
You dogs? Bids? What the heck does that mean? My dogs are in more birds than your dogs in 10 years. You couldn't touch them. Just facts. Don't be angry because you live where there are few birds. Move, or stop with the ridiculous talk. Gotta go, going hunting tomorrow. double digit waterfowl, and double digit upland, just another day in God's country.
It's always nice when the only thing a person can say is you spelled a word wrong. Let me guess, did I miss a coma also? maybe it was a period. I wasn't aware you knew about the bird numbers in southern California. I do all the hunting I want here. ALL. YouR dogs see more birds then mine. Congratulations. They also have more ice in Antarctica. What's next? You want to see who carries a bigger shot gun?
I think it might just be which of us carries a bigger "schtick". :lol: :lol:

As far as killing birds is concerned, I still remember what an old Scottish gentleman told me once...long ago. We were discussing hunting birds and the subject of grouse and pheasant came up. He said that he shot all the grouse and wild pheasant(back then in the hills of NJ there actually were wild birds) he wanted with a pellet rifle when they came into his backyard. All he had to do was sit on his back porch and wait. Killing them was easy and cheaper than going to the store for chicken. The kept coming back even after he killed several. Same thing for venison...a .22 in the head from his back porch and no wasted meat. Now THAT is efficient. Like I said he was a Scot.


It ain't no big trick to kill stuff. If I was of a mind to kill geese, there are blinds less than a half hour from where I live where I could kill fifty or more snow geese per day...every day...day after day. There is NO LIMIT. Why?? Because there are tens of thousands of them locally. They have taken on the dimensions of a PEST because of their numbers. Some of the fields near the coast are so thick with them that you can barely see the green of the winter wheat for all the snow geese.

RayG

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:16 am

The snow geese have become a terrific problem up north as they are destroying their own habitat. We do a lot of hunting them in the spring on the return trip out west of us in the flyway from N.Dakota south. They beg people to come hunt them. And we used to hunt cottontails with a club after a fresh snow and you could track them. But those were the days when we needed them for food. When I was in Iowa we had a couple of big old pine trees in the backyard and every morning the pheasants would come up out of the alfalfa field just beyond our house fly up into the bottom of those trees and then work their way to the top and fly to a corn field 3/4 of a mile away to feed all day before coming back to the alfalfa to roost. Was pretty neat to get up in the morning and have the pine trees look like decorated Christmas tree with 20 roosters in each of them.

Times change, not always for the better in my opinion, and if you don't want to be left behind, you have to change with them. But I will not change to the point that I will stop working for what I think is right. Maybe if enough get on board we can make a difference, who know till you try?

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by adogslife » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:18 am

Like I said he was a Scot.
Not sure his nationality had anything to do with it.

I know many locals where I am who hunt all year long.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Elkhunter » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:10 am

Do you even need a dog to kill birds in ND? :) My buddies go every year and they dont even have a bird dog! Wait they do have a lab... :)

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by JKP » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:16 am

I hope all the proselytizing about the virtues of walking with a dog and the gun for beauties sake doesn't mean we are glorifying the process rather than measuring the result. It is this type of reasoning that has always made me suspicious of some trialers, who would rather have a stiking find (in view of the gallery of course) on the far ridge as part of a 2 bird brace than a 6 bird less showy run. Like I said, they seem to have a lot in common with the matrons parading their "poopsies" around the show ring. :lol: If we insist on calling our dogs hunting dogs than what they do when actually hunting can be the only measure....and efficiency the only real parameter.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Elkhunter » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:21 am

JKP what if the trial was a plop down trial, and one dog had 6 finds in the horsepath, and dog two had 2 finds out on the edges and on some far reaching objectives. Which one would you place?

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