Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

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Garrison
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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Garrison » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:25 am

JKP wrote:I hope all the proselytizing about the virtues of walking with a dog and the gun for beauties sake doesn't mean we are glorifying the process rather than measuring the result. It is this type of reasoning that has always made me suspicious of some trialers, who would rather have a stiking find (in view of the gallery of course) on the far ridge as part of a 2 bird brace than a 6 bird less showy run. Like I said, they seem to have a lot in common with the matrons parading their "poopsies" around the show ring. :lol: If we insist on calling our dogs hunting dogs than what they do when actually hunting can be the only measure....and efficiency the only real parameter.

Most on your side of the fence feel that a real bird dog needs to be worked on wild birds (as do I and most of the trialers who hunt their dogs on wild birds), but how could you measure what is most important to you, efficiency or finds on wild birds? Some courses have more some less, doesn't sound like the best dog would always win.
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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:35 am

I hope all the proselytizing about the virtues of walking with a dog and the gun for beauties sake
...absolutely not, converting people would mean that they were joining you and while there are a majority of folks that would be not only an asset but a pleasure on a hunting trip or a trial... There are a few identified by their poor social skills, akward use of cynisism, and inability to contain their emotions on of all things an internet forum that would clearly be a liability...they are much better served huddling in small groups and complaining about the way others do things.
doesn't mean we are glorifying the process rather than measuring the result
Yes we are indeed...because the process goes on forever and the result if that's simply a dead bird, a full game bag, or a guy focused on only that has a definitive end for me...

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by JKP » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:40 am

This whole discussion has really been more about poking each other with sticks than substance. I don't think there is anyone here that doesn't see hunting as the goal....and dogs that consistently get it done under all conditions as the best.

I worry just as much about the Vdog formats where we see dogs being bred on the basis of scores. I watch folks importing 2 year old dogs with "big numbers"...yet what 2 year old dog can possibly have shown its potential where it counts?
Please don't think I am picking on trial formats alone. In the end it comes down to "who do you trust". The results of games is just one of the indications of ability. Style is just a visual picture...its like jewelry and there are all kinds of personal taste. Efficiency on wild game day in and day out is a better measure of a dog. But then you still have the question of temperament, character, prepotence, etc .....

I am less interested in a "pretty"(style) dog that is an average bird finder...but I guess there is a place for pretty in every breeding program.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Garrison » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:41 am

DonF wrote:OK. In an attempt to hi-jack this endless thred, what is a finished dog to you?
Enjoys hunting for me.

Finds Birds.

Steady to Wing and Shot.

You can see on the Side of hill.

Pleasant to have around the house.

Most importantly A dog that doesn't fall apart on the third day of a 5 day chukar hunt on some of my precious vacation time.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by LincolnAlexander » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:41 am

JKP wrote:I hope all the proselytizing about the virtues of walking with a dog and the gun for beauties sake doesn't mean we are glorifying the process rather than measuring the result. It is this type of reasoning that has always made me suspicious of some trialers, who would rather have a stiking find (in view of the gallery of course) on the far ridge as part of a 2 bird brace than a 6 bird less showy run. Like I said, they seem to have a lot in common with the matrons parading their "poopsies" around the show ring. :lol: If we insist on calling our dogs hunting dogs than what they do when actually hunting can be the only measure....and efficiency the only real parameter.
Not entirely sure if this was directed at me, but just to clarify I am not a field trialer (have not entered one as of yet) and I want my dog to be very effective (otherwise how I will get to see him work on birds????) Also, I specifically said, that watching my dog work is what I enjoy most; I don't feel it is my place to tell others what they should enjoy, but that is just me :).

I also don't equate having an effective dog that also looks great when working on birds to people showing their dogs in a conformation ring where the only thing they are judging is looks, and who knows whether the dog even knows what a bird smells like... I expect my dog to be effective at hunting, but enjoy him looking good while doing it... seems pretty different to me.
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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:47 am

The results of games is just one of the indications of ability. Style is just a visual picture...its like jewelry and there are all kinds of personal taste. Efficiency on wild game day in and day out is a better measure of a dog. But then you still have the question of temperament, character, prepotence, etc .....

I am less interested in a "pretty"(style) dog that is an average bird finder...but I guess there is a place for pretty in every breeding program.
See I think this makes sense, I agree strongly in your style desription that intensity is a better word, and that breeding programs that don't recognize "hunting dog" traits are doing nobody any good...I do however recognize and believe that people have different needs...


Guys like you have your dogs swimming rivers to blind retrieve geese, I think first you need the right breed for that and the second factor is training and then breeding comes into play.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Garrison » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:51 am

JKP wrote:This whole discussion has really been more about poking each other with sticks than substance. I don't think there is anyone here that doesn't see hunting as the goal....and dogs that consistently get it done under all conditions as the best.

I worry just as much about the Vdog formats where we see dogs being bred on the basis of scores. I watch folks importing 2 year old dogs with "big numbers"...yet what 2 year old dog can possibly have shown its potential where it counts?
Please don't think I am picking on trial formats alone. In the end it comes down to "who do you trust". The results of games is just one of the indications of ability. Style is just a visual picture...its like jewelry and there are all kinds of personal taste. Efficiency on wild game day in and day out is a better measure of a dog. But then you still have the question of temperament, character, prepotence, etc .....

I am less interested in a "pretty"(style) dog that is an average bird finder...but I guess there is a place for pretty in every breeding program.

Correct me if I am wrong I am not a judge but wouldn't a dog have to "get it done" (find a bird) before a judge could consider what the dog looks like on point, I think it may be part of the criteria of a total package but the dog would have to have the rest of it as well.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by nikegundog » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:29 am

Garrison wrote: Correct me if I am wrong I am not a judge but wouldn't a dog have to "get it done" (find a bird) before a judge could consider what the dog looks like on point, I think it may be part of the criteria of a total package but the dog would have to have the rest of it as well.
If a dog has one find and another dog has two finds, the first dog didn't "get it done".

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:35 am

That's not true Nike. Scenting conditions and a million other factors change by the second in the field, that is why there are experts ( we do our best anyway) watching dogs to choose the best possible overall performance. You only have 30 minutes, 1 hour or three and we do the very best we can on any given day to choose the best dog by any given criteria...and for the most part it all comes out in the wash. For those that don't think so there are other venues with more absolutes to them...

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:44 am

If I may weigh in the whole topic is somewhat skewed in my opinion. I was the one that made the statement that the European dogs were basically bred for efficiency and they paid little attention to style. This is partically true of German bred dogs as well as most anything else they did in the past. But I don't think it is a situation of style versus efficiency when it comes to dogs. There are way too many dogs that embody both and they in no way conflict with each other so the term vs. is out of place. As I have said before though I know many if not most disagree with me but I look first at a good looking dog and then find the ones that are good in the field.

If any of us didn't agree with that to some extent we would all be raising dogs that have little resemblance to each other and we wouldn't be able to tell what to call them as they wouldn't resemble any breed we have today. And I know many of you feel this way even though you don't want to admit it but look in the archives and see how many people show there concern about a Lab, GSP, GWP, and others are the wrong color, or the Labs that point when they just aren't supposed to. Just about everybody weighed in on one or another of the looks issues. And there is nothing wrong with that because we do care what a dog looks like. And we do care how they hunt and how they retrieve but luckily we have plenty of dogs to choose from that exhibit both characteristics to the nth degree. Find them and use them if we want to continue a good thing we have going.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Troy08er » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:54 am

Elkhunter wrote:Do you even need a dog to kill birds in ND? :) My buddies go every year and they dont even have a bird dog! Wait they do have a lab... :)
+1 my friends left Monday. I always tell them, I'll stay home and hunt chukar and valley quail.
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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Cajun Casey » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:59 am

I don't like the way my chunky white German dog looks at the fridge since he learned how to open it, hunt around and retrieve cheese, which he also unwraps. :(
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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by orbirdhunter » Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:03 pm

style v efficiency........I don't really look at it that way, i personally look at efficiency and drive/intensity. i guess for me intensity is style, and it looks different for every dog that has it. I don't personally care how high the head is, or how high the tail is etc, i want to see the intensity in the eyes and body of the dog. As a example i hunted with a gent a couple yrs ago that had setters, we were chukar hunting. one setter had the classic very high head and 12 clock tail, and it was a great dog. the second dog held its considerably lower, tail closer to 45 degree angle, but man that dog was intense, basically quivering on every point. Efficiency wise i would say that they were roughly the same, meaning that i would say that they covered about the ground about equal and found about equal birds. The owner of the dogs held dog #1 as his go to dog and his gun dog trial dog, i am presuming because of its head and tail carry, but it might have had other qualities that made it a better trial dog that was not noticeable on out hunt. I would have taken dog #2 all the way, because i felt like it had more intensity on its birds then dog #1........
Its just all about what you want in your dog.

I am not even going to touch the whole trial dog,v dog, retriever, water work etc, etc, etc,.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by nikegundog » Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:19 pm

Chukar12 wrote:That's not true Nike. Scenting conditions and a million other factors change by the second in the field, that is why there are experts ( we do our best anyway) watching dogs to choose the best possible overall performance. You only have 30 minutes, 1 hour or three and we do the very best we can on any given day to choose the best dog by any given criteria...and for the most part it all comes out in the wash. For those that don't think so there are other venues with more absolutes to them...
I'm not putting down trials, I just talking about my venue that is hunting. I have heard what you have said by many others that its a limited amount of time and you try to judge what dog would get it done in a longer amount of time. This is my experience in hunting flushing dogs, a 2 year old lab is going to run harder and longer and with for style than a 8 year old, in a full day hunt the 8 year old dog is going to have more flushes 70% of the time. So if you had to judge the 2 age groups in a 1/2 hr or 1 hr stake the 2 yr olds would win almost every time, yet be far inferior hunters. That's just my experience in my venue with absolutes. I will confess that in sporting events absolutes is what I like, I can't watch figure skating or gymnastics where a panel of judges decide the out come, I like to watch events that officials have a smaller role than the athlete.
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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Garrison » Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:31 pm

ezzy333 wrote: As I have said before though I know many if not most disagree with me but I look first at a good looking dog and then find the ones that are good in the field.
Ezzy
I don't think most disagree, I just don't think most think their own dog is ugly. If by good looking you mean closer to confirmation standards and functioning well in the field then we are almost forced to disagree if we don't fancy a Brittany.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:37 pm

It's true, many people prefer keeping score in all things they do...and who am I to argue. The problem is as you stated ... controlling that with equality in nature, and the weather conditions with birds in a contest that is dependent on them. As many have said, the true measure is in the longevity and the consistency by which a dog places in multiple venues and multiple judges...I try to glance at all venues such as NSTRA and BDC and you will find similar consistencies there... usually the same dogs and handlers are at or near the top of the game.

There are just so many variables in a large horseback type course, you aren't circling and you want a dog running forward and some braces get the wind in their face and some get the wind in their back...some get water sources some don't ... and a judge that knows dogs and the way they should react to the variables should be able to measure the ground application of a dog you would want to hunt with for the conditions presented...and then we get into the question of manners and style or intensity on bird work.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by SCT » Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:34 pm

Is there a definition of "style" that everyone can agree on??? What is STYLE??? We need a definitive description.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by proudag08 » Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:53 pm

SCT wrote:What is STYLE???
Its what I think looks good. There that was easy enough.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Duane M » Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:56 pm

ACooper wrote:The best bird dogs find the most birds CONSISTENTLY, no matter how they look getting there or how they look pointing them...
That says it all right there. As one who has made the full circle from hunter to hunter/trialer to once again just a hunter I'll speak my perspective on the deal. In a trial there may well be only that style issue that seperates the winner from the loser, equal finds, run, class and handle are very possible and definitely happens, thats where a good honest judge comes in, honest is the key word there. Trials and winners can be skewed and have been many times by the old boy BS, that alone is the reason I left trials, I saw too many dogs win I would not call the winner of the day and in some cases not even a good hunting dog. But the judges sure did :lol: .

As a hunter efficiency is the only aspect most look for, my best ever dog never had style with his sickle tail but he was a by god honest bird dog, shoot my second most efficient was the same way had a low tail but she found birds other ran by and she was FAST but intelligent. Bubba won in the field every time till he was retired at 12 be it wild birds or the preserve I worked and even a couple of NSTRA type fun trials, but wouldnt place in a traditional trial without me signing over my first born, truck and house to the judges. Maddie was only bested regularly by old Bubba and more than once out ran, and out found, winning and "bleep" good trial dogs couple of the old trialers here were even willing to help me get that tail surgery done as they were that impressed with her.

Honestly efficiency is first and foremost, but I would never look down on someone who wanted that class as I have had a few myself that had both efficiency and class, the two are not in any way exclusive. Run what ya like and keep ya mouth shut about others stuff you dont, if it makes them happy what business is it of yours to demean them be ya a trialer or a hunter.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:57 pm

SCT,

I don't think we can agree on style...it's too subjective, you know it when you see it...and frankly I think all sides of this argument are relatively congruent in that thought. In the wide open a dog that hits covey scent from 40 yards is sure nice to look at with his head and tail high and tight...by the same token, a dog that is running down hill with the wind up his caboose and hits a single from 3 feet as he goes by and stops in a horseshoe with his eyes bugging out and body contorted by the skid, well....that ought to raise your blood pressure as well... and you are probably foolish if you want or expect that dog to stop and straighten up ... no?

Or am I missing your point, cause that is a common malady of mine, or so I was told thos morning at Gower morning breakfast. And why...what does too many dogs have to do with plants and flowers, Thanksgiving guests, etc..women? well I am digressing did I misunderstand?

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Vision » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:03 pm

Ithacaslayer wrote:Even the AKC President acknowledged in print that the Retrieving trials are making the dogs Too Hot for many hunters, it has created a breed unto itself, and that is not altogether a good thing.
Oh well,have electricity for that right?
You still need the "too hot" to keep the "just right" around.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:27 pm

nikegundog wrote:
Garrison wrote: Correct me if I am wrong I am not a judge but wouldn't a dog have to "get it done" (find a bird) before a judge could consider what the dog looks like on point, I think it may be part of the criteria of a total package but the dog would have to have the rest of it as well.
If a dog has one find and another dog has two finds, the first dog didn't "get it done".
nike-

So... what about if a third dog has three finds? I guess you might say that the first two didn't get it done. How about if a fourth dog had FOUR finds? And so on...

The question that needs to be answered is how many finds does it take for someone to come to the conclusion that the dog is hunting, finding game and standing that game with style and intensity. Is it one bird? Sometimes it can be. Is it two finds. A lot of times that is enough to answer the question. Is it more? Yes... sometimes it is.

A very great deal depends on the type of trial, the scenting conditions, the terrain, etc, etc. It is not as easy as counting finds.

Some may ask WHY NOT just count finds? The answer to that is because the finding of birds is only a part of what is being evaluated. Another answer is that simply counting finds is absolutely unfair to the dog...UNLESS you can design a format which provides an equal opportunity for each and every dog to find the same number of birds within the time allotted in the same exact cover. In reality, NSTRA comes pretty close to doing just that...and from what I understand, the dog with the most finds generally wins, if the handler shoots straight.

However, any format that depends on wild birds or multiple courses, for example, will be inherently unfair to dogs that are not chosen to run at the time of day when birds are moving or are chosen to run on a course which does not have as many birds in residence or which has more difficult terrain to negotiate.

RayG

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by birddog1968 » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:43 pm

Vision wrote:
Ithacaslayer wrote:Even the AKC President acknowledged in print that the Retrieving trials are making the dogs Too Hot for many hunters, it has created a breed unto itself, and that is not altogether a good thing.
Oh well,have electricity for that right?
You still need the "too hot" to keep the "just right" around.

BINGO!!! This is what i was trying to say a few pages ago.....

I would also ask what in the world the AKC president knows.....I will take that super hot lab over a soft subdued lab any day. Some fire is good to work with especially with trainers (like myself) that might inadvertently take some of that fire out in training. Same with pointing dogs.
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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by nikegundog » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:51 pm

RayGubernat wrote:
nikegundog wrote:
Garrison wrote: Correct me if I am wrong I am not a judge but wouldn't a dog have to "get it done" (find a bird) before a judge could consider what the dog looks like on point, I think it may be part of the criteria of a total package but the dog would have to have the rest of it as well.
If a dog has one find and another dog has two finds, the first dog didn't "get it done".
nike-

So... what about if a third dog has three finds? I guess you might say that the first two didn't get it done. How about if a fourth dog had FOUR finds? And so on...

The question that needs to be answered is how many finds does it take for someone to come to the conclusion that the dog is hunting, finding game and standing that game with style and intensity. Is it one bird? Sometimes it can be. Is it two finds. A lot of times that is enough to answer the question. Is it more? Yes... sometimes it is.

A very great deal depends on the type of trial, the scenting conditions, the terrain, etc, etc. It is not as easy as counting finds.

Some may ask WHY NOT just count finds? The answer to that is because the finding of birds is only a part of what is being evaluated. Another answer is that simply counting finds is absolutely unfair to the dog...UNLESS you can design a format which provides an equal opportunity for each and every dog to find the same number of birds within the time allotted in the same exact cover. In reality, NSTRA comes pretty close to doing just that...and from what I understand, the dog with the most finds generally wins, if the handler shoots straight.

However, any format that depends on wild birds or multiple courses, for example, will be inherently unfair to dogs that are not chosen to run at the time of day when birds are moving or are chosen to run on a course which does not have as many birds in residence or which has more difficult terrain to negotiate.

RayG
First off let me again say I am talking about my venue and my perception. The number of finds doesn't determine which dog is or is not a hunting dog, however is this instance, on this day, it would determine which is the BETTER dog, the dog with four finds is better than the dog with three on that given day. I'll post up an example of pro golf, the conditions may be just as unfair as the dog game depending upon tie time right? At the end of the day do they add up the scores then have judges add to them or subtract strokes depending on their perception of the conditions when one ties off? Over the course of several events you will see favorable and unfavorable conditions the cream will rise to the top. But, as you said in your event finding birds is only a part of what is being judged, thus style vs efficiency.
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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Duane M » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:52 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Ali was the Greatest of ALL TIME Boxer but Birddogz the Greatest of ALL TIME birdhunter & owns the GREATEST of ALL TIME bird dogs. :lol:
Just ask him!!
Nothing else to say as that says it ALL!! :lol:
Yeah got a feelin this is the same old boy who's wonder dogs got it handed to em by an 8 month old pup we sold a guy a few years back when the pups owner and an internet dog legend went up to ND. He sure sounds like the same old boy, with the same old brags 7 years later. Bet his name is Alan :lol:

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Duane M » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:55 pm

However, any format that depends on wild birds or multiple courses, for example, will be inherently unfair to dogs that are not chosen to run at the time of day when birds are moving or are chosen to run on a course which does not have as many birds in residence or which has more difficult terrain to negotiate.

Ray even in single course stakes the time of day can make a huge difference, reckon thats why one old boys dogs always seemed to draw 2nd-4th braces in the morning round here, never late braces in the heat or early when the dew was heaviest and scenting was worst. BTW he owned the land we ran on :wink:

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Wenaha » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:58 pm

RayGubernat wrote: Some may ask WHY NOT just count finds? The answer to that is because the finding of birds is only a part of what is being evaluated.
RayG
I agree with Ray's comments.

Here is another scenario -

Dog A runs first thing in the morning and when cast from the line runs out and has 3 finds in the first 10 minutes, then he melts down, stops hunting and ends up finishing heeling the handler (or his horse) -- exhausted. Dog B runs in the heat of mid=afternoon, rolls through the course, has 2 finds and finishes strong and to the front.

I want Dog B.
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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:40 pm

Yeah got a feelin this is the same old boy who's wonder dogs got it handed to em by an 8 month old pup we sold a guy a few years back when the pups owner and an internet dog legend went up to ND. He sure sounds like the same old boy, with the same old brags 7 years later.
I am sure only Ezzy and Birddogz knows the answer to this but you are probably 12 hours or so late contributing...and darn it too, if you are correct the response to this would be well worth the cost of membership here

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by SCT » Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:49 pm

Chukar12 wrote:SCT,

I don't think we can agree on style...it's too subjective, you know it when you see it...and frankly I think all sides of this argument are relatively congruent in that thought. In the wide open a dog that hits covey scent from 40 yards is sure nice to look at with his head and tail high and tight...by the same token, a dog that is running down hill with the wind up his caboose and hits a single from 3 feet as he goes by and stops in a horseshoe with his eyes bugging out and body contorted by the skid, well....that ought to raise your blood pressure as well... and you are probably foolish if you want or expect that dog to stop and straighten up ... no?

Or am I missing your point, cause that is a common malady of mine, or so I was told thos morning at Gower morning breakfast. And why...what does too many dogs have to do with plants and flowers, Thanksgiving guests, etc..women? well I am digressing did I misunderstand?
What you are explaining, I would agree is STYLE.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by tommyboy72 » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:02 pm

Wenaha wrote:I agree with Ray's comments.

Here is another scenario -

Dog A runs first thing in the morning and when cast from the line runs out and has 3 finds in the first 10 minutes, then he melts down, stops hunting and ends up finishing heeling the handler (or his horse) -- exhausted. Dog B runs in the heat of mid=afternoon, rolls through the course, has 2 finds and finishes strong and to the front.

I want Dog B.
Sounds to me like that makes Dog B a better conditioned dog not a better dog, necessarily. If they were both roaded, conditioned, fed, watered the same, and given the exact same supplements and you still had the same results multiple times there might be a case for that argument but not knowing all of the information I mentioned and only seeing the dog once I think I would reserve judgement. JMO

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Birddogz » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:10 pm

Chukar12 wrote:
Yeah got a feelin this is the same old boy who's wonder dogs got it handed to em by an 8 month old pup we sold a guy a few years back when the pups owner and an internet dog legend went up to ND. He sure sounds like the same old boy, with the same old brags 7 years later.
I am sure only Ezzy and Birddogz knows the answer to this but you are probably 12 hours or so late contributing...and darn it too, if you are correct the response to this would be well worth the cost of membership here
I have lived in ND for 18 months. NE before that. I have been on this forum for about 2-3 years. No idea what you are talking about.

I will say this, there isn't an 8 month old pup in the country that will "hand it" to any of my 3-5 year old dogs. No way. Do they point, back, relocate, track roosters over 100 yards, take hand signal, retrieve in big water, etc.? What makes a great dog is experience on game, and at 8 months I will take on any dog with my adult dogs. :wink: If an 8 month old dog is better, I would be loyal to that kennel for LIFE, and give you more praise than can be imagined. :D
Last edited by Birddogz on Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by slistoe » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:14 pm

tommyboy72 wrote:
Wenaha wrote:I agree with Ray's comments.

Here is another scenario -

Dog A runs first thing in the morning and when cast from the line runs out and has 3 finds in the first 10 minutes, then he melts down, stops hunting and ends up finishing heeling the handler (or his horse) -- exhausted. Dog B runs in the heat of mid=afternoon, rolls through the course, has 2 finds and finishes strong and to the front.

I want Dog B.
Sounds to me like that makes Dog B a better conditioned dog not a better dog, necessarily. If they were both roaded, conditioned, fed, watered the same, and given the exact same supplements and you still had the same results multiple times there might be a case for that argument but not knowing all of the information I mentioned and only seeing the dog once I think I would reserve judgement. JMO
Now if there ever was anyone stretching to try to make their argument this is it. For all you know as a judge Dog A was on a full conditioning program and simply does not have the physical capacity to work for any extended period of time no matter what is done with him. Assuming that would be just as viable as assuming that Dog A could compete if properly conditioned.
You have to judge what is presented in front of you.
Some dogs win consistently. Some dogs get one once in awhile. Some never win. Over time you will really know the quality of the dog, but on that day, at that time, what you see is what you have to judge.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Garrison » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:30 pm

How would it be judged if two dogs are braced together and one runs well and looks great doing it, gets a find with perfect bird work and the other dog has a few finds but doesn't look as good running or on birds? Same conditions same course just went to where the birds were? Are finds worth more in this situation?

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:50 pm

Nope!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Birddogz » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:54 pm

Finds need to be rewarded. Looks can be a matter of opinion. Maybe the dog that runs to the birds has a superior nose. Like Nolan's last Bullet used to do. :D
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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:56 pm

OK here is another one,you have a dog in the OLGD with 5 finds the most of the stake,dog is very stylish running & on point 12:00 both ends.The only time the dog is seen is at the breakaway,on point, & at the finish.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Wenaha » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:59 pm

Birddogz wrote:Finds need to be rewarded. Looks can be a matter of opinion. Maybe the dog that runs to the birds has a superior nose. Like Nolan's last Bullet used to do. :D
Do you think that 'finds' and 'looks' are the only two criteria of judgement? You need to critically look at a lot more dogs, I think.

When I am considering a dog, I consider the whole package. Desire, ground application, intensity, bird work and manners, FINDS, endurance, handle, and intangibles. I am looking for the dog that I would like to hunt and trial.
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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:04 pm

Agreed Wenaha but of those 2 dogs the way they are descibed the one find dog is on top in my book!!

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Garrison » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:27 pm

Wenaha wrote:
Birddogz wrote:Finds need to be rewarded. Looks can be a matter of opinion. Maybe the dog that runs to the birds has a superior nose. Like Nolan's last Bullet used to do. :D
Do you think that 'finds' and 'looks' are the only two criteria of judgement? You need to critically look at a lot more dogs, I think.

When I am considering a dog, I consider the whole package. Desire, ground application, intensity, bird work and manners, FINDS, endurance, handle, and intangibles. I am looking for the dog that I would like to hunt and trial.
We strive for a dog that has a nice balance of all that is mentioned above, some make it a life's work. Do you think some criteria are focused on to the detriment of others in the various trial venues.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:35 pm

If you believe that the most finds should be rewarded then trial in venues that reward the most finds don't run in venues that judge the whole performance & then cry if the dog that has the most finds don't even get a placemet!!! :roll:

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by brad27 » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:35 pm

Garrison wrote:
Wenaha wrote:
Birddogz wrote:Finds need to be rewarded. Looks can be a matter of opinion. Maybe the dog that runs to the birds has a superior nose. Like Nolan's last Bullet used to do. :D
Do you think that 'finds' and 'looks' are the only two criteria of judgement? You need to critically look at a lot more dogs, I think.

When I am considering a dog, I consider the whole package. Desire, ground application, intensity, bird work and manners, FINDS, endurance, handle, and intangibles. I am looking for the dog that I would like to hunt and trial.
We strive for a dog that has a nice balance of all that is mentioned above, some make it a life's work. Do you think some criteria are focused on to the detriment of others in the various trial venues.
Ithink by format definition it has to be. Different rules and requirements for each. I think dogs that have titles from other and sometimes opposing formats are special dogs.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Wenaha » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:39 pm

Garrison wrote:
Wenaha wrote:
Birddogz wrote:Finds need to be rewarded. Looks can be a matter of opinion. Maybe the dog that runs to the birds has a superior nose. Like Nolan's last Bullet used to do. :D
Do you think that 'finds' and 'looks' are the only two criteria of judgement? You need to critically look at a lot more dogs, I think.

When I am considering a dog, I consider the whole package. Desire, ground application, intensity, bird work and manners, FINDS, endurance, handle, and intangibles. I am looking for the dog that I would like to hunt and trial.
We strive for a dog that has a nice balance of all that is mentioned above, some make it a life's work. Do you think some criteria are focused on to the detriment of others in the various trial venues.
My primary experience is in AFTCA/AF trials. Despite having only general guidelines for judging, I feel that almost all of the judges do a very creditable job of picking the winners. There IS a emphasis on run/ground application, but the other qualities are not ignored -- in fact, they can more than tip the balance in favor of a well rounded dog. As I have said before, you can win a lot of AA trials with a dog that runs and handles at 400 yards, as long as it has the quality the judges look for.

I am uncertain how these things are judged in AKC or other trials, but they cannot be much different. It takes a lot of dog, hard work, and some luck to consistently win in AF trials.
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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Garrison » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:45 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:If you believe that the most finds should be rewarded then trial in venues that reward the most finds don't run in venues that judge the whole performance & then cry if the dog that has the most finds don't even get a placemet!!! :roll:
Is this your answer to my question, if so not sure where I ever mentioned that finds should be rewarded or worried about a placement. Just curious.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by JKP » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:52 pm

Desire, ground application, intensity, bird work and manners, FINDS, endurance, handle, and intangibles.
I don't understand how the dog that finds the most game and handles it well WOULDN'T have desire and all the other qualities. Are you trying to say that if there are too many birds, that a dog should blow by them so as to exhibit ground application? I think there is something being left unsaid...and that is....secretly trialers don't want too many birds...gets in the way when it comes to showing run, style and application :wink: Doubt we'll get anyone to admit it.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by proudag08 » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:58 pm

I would like to pause a minute and step outside the debates going on here and say "Well done!"

We have successfully been moderated the right amount: stern warnings at times and the passive guidance of convorsation but still allowing people to disagree

We have been able to express our views and not get all bent out of shape! Also I have not seen any "ok fine you win" posts, no "Im taking my ball and going home" posts, and no "me = man and you = not" posts.

This is what makes this country awesome! The ability to do things like this. Thanks for everyone's input, lets keep it up!!!

Well done men (and women)... well done!

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:59 pm

Garrison that was to all the believers here that think only the most finds are important. Here is the thing,you can't judge & place dogs by written descriptions you have to ride all braces,watch all the dogs & judge the whole performance of each dog to place them!! :D

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Garrison » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:01 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Garrison that was to all the believers here that think only the most finds are important.Like Birddogz,Nike,& several others.
Here is the thing,you can't judge & place dogs by written descriptions you have to ride all braces,watch all the dogs & judge the whole performance of each dog to place them!! :D

Agreed

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:02 pm

JKP did you read my post near the end of page 7 about the dog with 5 finds the most of the stake??

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Garrison » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:10 pm

proudag08 wrote:I would like to pause a minute and step outside the debates going on here and say "Well done!"

We have successfully been moderated the right amount: stern warnings at times and the passive guidance of convorsation but still allowing people to disagree

We have been able to express our views and not get all bent out of shape! Also I have not seen any "ok fine you win" posts, no "Im taking my ball and going home" posts, and no "me = man and you = not" posts.

This is what makes this country awesome! The ability to do things like this. Thanks for everyone's input, lets keep it up!!!

Well done men (and women)... well done!

I'm guessing less beer due to no Monday Night Football!

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by brad27 » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:15 pm

JKP wrote:
Desire, ground application, intensity, bird work and manners, FINDS, endurance, handle, and intangibles.
I don't understand how the dog that finds the most game and handles it well WOULDN'T have desire and all the other qualities. Are you trying to say that if there are too many birds, that a dog should blow by them so as to exhibit ground application? I think there is something being left unsaid...and that is....secretly trialers don't want too many birds...gets in the way when it comes to showing run, style and application :wink: Doubt we'll get anyone to admit it.
If you want think of it this way, let's say there are 3 areas a dog is being judged in. And each of those areas a dog can receive a max score of 10. Dog 1 gets a score of 7,9,10 and dog 2 gets a score of 10,8,5. Which dog wins. Assuming the highest score wins. FT are not judged solely on finds.

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