Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Birddogz » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:31 pm

JKP wrote:
Desire, ground application, intensity, bird work and manners, FINDS, endurance, handle, and intangibles.
I don't understand how the dog that finds the most game and handles it well WOULDN'T have desire and all the other qualities. Are you trying to say that if there are too many birds, that a dog should blow by them so as to exhibit ground application? I think there is something being left unsaid...and that is....secretly trialers don't want too many birds...gets in the way when it comes to showing run, style and application :wink: Doubt we'll get anyone to admit it.
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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Birddogz » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:35 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Garrison that was to all the believers here that think only the most finds are important.Like Birddogz,Nike,& several others.
Here is the thing,you can't judge & place dogs by written descriptions you have to ride all braces,watch all the dogs & judge the whole performance of each dog to place them!! :D
Can you imagine if FT guys were refs in a football game? That QB may have thrown an int, but he had perfect form doing so, the Superbowl goes to him for cosmetics alone. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by tn red » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:36 pm

Birddogz wrote:
JKP wrote:
Desire, ground application, intensity, bird work and manners, FINDS, endurance, handle, and intangibles.
I don't understand how the dog that finds the most game and handles it well WOULDN'T have desire and all the other qualities. Are you trying to say that if there are too many birds, that a dog should blow by them so as to exhibit ground application? I think there is something being left unsaid...and that is....secretly trialers don't want too many birds...gets in the way when it comes to showing run, style and application :wink: Doubt we'll get anyone to admit it.
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If you dont like trial dogs why are you so dang worried about how the game is played? I doubt either of you will admit why .

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:37 pm

OK since it seems everyone wants to ignore the most finds of 5 the dog did not place because she was deemed TOO BIG for the stake so that kinda blows you idea of TOO MANY finds = not showing enough run,style,& application.
Now can you understand there is more to it then finds?? :roll:

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Brushbustin Sporting Dogs » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:40 pm

So a dog runs down the horse track and never dives into any thick cover and has 6 finds does that dog win???
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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:41 pm

Depends on the rest of the dogs probably!!
That's why I'm saying you can't judge & place dogs on written scenerios!!

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by tommyboy72 » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:45 pm

slistoe wrote:
tommyboy72 wrote:
Wenaha wrote:I agree with Ray's comments.

Here is another scenario -

Dog A runs first thing in the morning and when cast from the line runs out and has 3 finds in the first 10 minutes, then he melts down, stops hunting and ends up finishing heeling the handler (or his horse) -- exhausted. Dog B runs in the heat of mid=afternoon, rolls through the course, has 2 finds and finishes strong and to the front.

I want Dog B.
Sounds to me like that makes Dog B a better conditioned dog not a better dog, necessarily. If they were both roaded, conditioned, fed, watered the same, and given the exact same supplements and you still had the same results multiple times there might be a case for that argument but not knowing all of the information I mentioned and only seeing the dog once I think I would reserve judgement. JMO
Now if there ever was anyone stretching to try to make their argument this is it. For all you know as a judge Dog A was on a full conditioning program and simply does not have the physical capacity to work for any extended period of time no matter what is done with him. Assuming that would be just as viable as assuming that Dog A could compete if properly conditioned.
You have to judge what is presented in front of you.
Some dogs win consistently. Some dogs get one once in awhile. Some never win. Over time you will really know the quality of the dog, but on that day, at that time, what you see is what you have to judge.

Slistoe I wasn't looking at the situation from the point of view of a field trial judge I was looking at it from the point of view of someone wanting to purchase that dog, a pup out of that dog, or to breed my dog to him/her. By judgement I meant my personal assessment of the dog as a spectator and whether or not I wanted anything out of him\her. If I were judging a trial I completely agree with you. You can only judge what is in front of you. The fact that the dog has no stamnia no matter what is done with him is the reason I stated I would reserve judgement until I saw him run more than once.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:58 pm

How did that explain anything other then the most finds don't mean everything?? :?

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Chukar12 » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:01 pm

For JKP .... I will admit it, I prefer dogs to have to look for birds in trials. Whether they be wild or throw downs I don't want them behind every bush. If they are there you cannot penalize the dog for finding them of course...

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Sharon » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:07 pm

Birddogz wrote:
Brushbustin Sporting Dogs wrote:So a dog runs down the horse track and never dives into any thick cover and has 6 finds does that dog win???
You have just explained the reason that FTs are a joke.
Only a joke if you believe that dog would win, which it wouldn't.

Many factors to be considered in placing dogs: ground work ( search, range,pace), bird work( accurate and quick location and relocation,pointing, style and intensity), training and manners ( hunting to the course, responding to the handler,steadiness on wing and shot, backing)

Often even though 3-4 placements can be named , only one or two dogs qualify.
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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:24 pm

Chukar12 wrote:For JKP .... I will admit it, I prefer dogs to have to look for birds in trials. Whether they be wild or throw downs I don't want them behind every bush. If they are there you cannot penalize the dog for finding them of course...

For JKP also -

The real reason why most field trialers I know do not want too many finds is quite simple. If the dog spends all its allotted time standing birds, it does not have the opportunity to show all the other things it can do. It cannot demonstrate the complete package that a superior bird dog should be. It is actually unfair to the dog.

The best field trial judging attempts to find the best dog and by that is meant the best dog, OVERALL. Not JUST the best birdfinder, because that is only ONE facet(although I will say it is a vital facet) of what needs to be a multi-faceted performance.

I again ask the question...HOW many points does it take for someone with some experience to know whether or not the dog points with intensity and style and is steady to wing and shot? I ask that question because it is THAT many finds that the winning dog should have...no less than that... but more does not help all that much.

I say again also...If you want to count finds(and retrieves) run in NSTRA because if the handler shoots straight and the dog retrieves each shot bird, the dog with the most finds almost always wins. There are a whole range of ways to compete with bird dogs and measure their performances. Pick one you like or that makes sense for you...or not.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by jcbuttry8 » Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:51 am

I think it's funny how most of the haters on here talk about that which they do not know. You really need to get off your couch, stop pecking at your computer and get in your car and drive down to a trial. Walk around and actually talk to the people there. Look at the number of dogs that not only run in FT, but also spend alot of time at the HT. You will find several dogs that are judged in several venues and succeed.

You like to sit on here and bash trialing. Most of your dogs are out of trialing blood. A good dog can put it down anywhere, and most of what you see at trials have proved that. You really should go and check it out. There are alot of trialers out there that spend alot of time and money traveling to different venues to show what there dog can do.

Again if you hate it so much go get a show queen and see how she does in the field. You won't because you would rather get a dog from the field for bird work. To do that, you have to go to the trialer lines.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Garrison » Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:35 am

When I am considering a dog, I consider the whole package. Desire, ground application, intensity, bird work and manners, FINDS, endurance, handle, and intangibles. I am looking for the dog that I would like to hunt and trial.
We strive for a dog that has a nice balance of all that is mentioned above, some make it a life's work. Do you think some criteria are focused on to the detriment of others in the various trial venues.
My primary experience is in AFTCA/AF trials. Despite having only general guidelines for judging, I feel that almost all of the judges do a very creditable job of picking the winners. There IS a emphasis on run/ground application, but the other qualities are not ignored -- in fact, they can more than tip the balance in favor of a well rounded dog. As I have said before, you can win a lot of AA trials with a dog that runs and handles at 400 yards, as long as it has the quality

I am uncertain how these things are judged in AKC or other trials, but they cannot be much different. It takes a lot of dog, hard work, and some luck to consistently win in AF trials.
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I was watching an interview with Dave Hughes who's success in cover dog trials speaks for it self, he said that him and George Tracy had a conversation about their string of dogs, they agreed that they could switch strings with each other and be winning with the others dogs within the year. These are two guys that have forgotten more than I will ever know about bird dogs.

Do you think this is the case the same attributes that get it done in the woods get it done in the fields on horseback, the difference is in the training? That good dogs are good dogs if given the opportunity and training in any venue, and the well rounded dogs are the ones that are the most successful?
Last edited by Garrison on Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:42 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by adogslife » Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:35 am

Again if you hate it so much go get a show queen and see how she does in the field

Is this your take on bird dogs?
FT or show queen?
You need to get out more.

FT dogs are upland specialist.
To perfrom as a specialist a dog needs to fill certain criteria. Criteria a foot hunting/versatile does not need to exhibit.
I am confused as to why FT enthusiasts believe this creteria is necessay to produce quality gun dogs.
Finding a vdog that hunts at 200-400 yards is not difficult,common place,actually. To say FT dogs have a more nose,drive,endurance,boldness,independence well, that's just a used car salesman talking.
When a FTer speaks of boldness,independence,drive and endurance, they are referring to a slanted version of the terms,on the edge version. FTers do not describe their dogs the same way vdogers describe theirs. There is a reason for this. A reason that most hunters need to be aware of.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by JKP » Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:02 am

The best field trial judging attempts to find the best dog and by that is meant the best dog, OVERALL. Not JUST the best birdfinder
To me this is the disconnect and why there is such a PR problem with FT. I understand what you want...and I, like others here, have been "prodding" the discussion along. Finding game IS what 98% of the hunting public wants. Telling them that you want your dogs to do that too BUT at the same time run the far ridge to do it, not find too many birds so as to show it can run hard for an hour, be in touch but necessarily in sight, etc, etc, etc....just not what the vast majority of the public can relate to. FT has taken style and put it ahead of utility...and then wants to tell us that with style (and a GPS unit) you get utility. In the discussion of style and efficiency (that is where we started, isn't it), we can read a less than subtle belief among trialers that the right style will bring with it efficiency. If a dog works the ground in a certain way, show desire, stamina, and can be trained to behave properly on contact.....it will be therefore efficient.

This discussion will never be resolved...IMO, its really a discussion about how each of us likes to hunt. Some like to see their dog work...other are excited by following their GPS to a find (the Mario Brothers generation??).

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by proudag08 » Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:06 am

JKP wrote:Finding game IS what 98% of the hunting public wants.
"We are the 2%!!!!" OCCUPY GUN DOG FORUM!!!!!! I'm setting up my tent right now!!!!! Ha ha ha :lol: Anyone? Anyone?

TOTALLY kidding of course!

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by RayGubernat » Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:04 am

JKP wrote:
The best field trial judging attempts to find the best dog and by that is meant the best dog, OVERALL. Not JUST the best birdfinder
To me this is the disconnect and why there is such a PR problem with FT. I understand what you want...and I, like others here, have been "prodding" the discussion along. Finding game IS what 98% of the hunting public wants. Telling them that you want your dogs to do that too BUT at the same time run the far ridge to do it, not find too many birds so as to show it can run hard for an hour, be in touch but necessarily in sight, etc, etc, etc....just not what the vast majority of the public can relate to. FT has taken style and put it ahead of utility...and then wants to tell us that with style (and a GPS unit) you get utility. In the discussion of style and efficiency (that is where we started, isn't it), we can read a less than subtle belief among trialers that the right style will bring with it efficiency. If a dog works the ground in a certain way, show desire, stamina, and can be trained to behave properly on contact.....it will be therefore efficient.

This discussion will never be resolved...IMO, its really a discussion about how each of us likes to hunt. Some like to see their dog work...other are excited by following their GPS to a find (the Mario Brothers generation??).
There is a disconnect, you are quite right. However the disconnect is that you don't WANT to understand the other parts of what makes up the complete upland bird dog. You want to dismiss them as unimportant. They are part and parcel of what makes up a good bird dog. Your unwillingness to consider the total package of talents that are showcased and required of the trial dog is the single reason why the the discussion will never be resolved. At least that is this writer's opinion. You are not the only one who can take on the mantle of reptresenting the hunting public. I can slip that over my shoulders occasionally also.

One more time...

I would assume that most hunters might want a dog that can hunt for three or four hours at a stretch. I know I do. If a dog can run hard for an hour in front of a horse and have something left in the gas tank at the end, it is a pretty good bet that it can hunt in front of a walking hunter for multiple hours. Mine always have been able to.

A dog that can hunt without tiring, for several hours will also be able to find more birds...at least I think so. I sincerely believe that a dog which is physically exhautsed cannot be as effective a hunter as one that is not.

A dog that can run to the next ridge in search of game...CAN. When hunting, just because the dog CAN does not mean that it MUST. But the fact remains that if the situation calls for it...the dog CAN.

You mention GPS units with disdain as if they are part and parcel of field trials. Of course, you conveniently FORGET to mention that use of a GPS, E-collar or any other type electronic tracking or training device ARE NOT PERMITTED DURING THE TRIAL. If you have to pull out the tracker, the dog is disqualified.

The real fact that you refuse to consider is this: Those big running dogs HAVE TO stay in contact, because if the dog is lost it cannot be placed. You cannot win with a lost dog. Period. Which is a more capable dog? Is it the one that never goes out of sight? Or is it the dog that does run out of sight occasionally, but has enough willingness to stay in touch with their handler/hunter to actually come back from over that far hill.

As far as style is concerned...a part of style is the willingness of the dog to stand its birds, tall and proud...until the handler gets there. Why in the world would someone NOT want that? I mean really!!

The truly funny(sad) thing is that the best of the field trial dogs CAN do all the things that the typical upland hunter wants and needs...and do it with class and style. When you breed to that kind of dog, you get most of that ability in the progeny. If you are a half decent trainer, you should be able to use what parts of those abilities you need and NOT allow the parts you do not need or want to develop.

Of course if one is unable or unwilling to do the required training, one would naturally gravitate to the kind of dog that doesn't require much in the way of training and will give an acceptable level of hunting performance with little input from the human half of the hunting team. And of course, the acceptable level of performance becomes the new(LOWER) standard and expectation for such folks because we all want to believe our dog is the best there is even when they might not be.

Everyone wants a bird dog that comes out of the birth canal with all the natural talents to seek and find birds, point and retrieve and the ability to develop those talents by simply running the dog in cover with birds. ME TOO!! Unfortunately, it don't really work that way too awful often.

RayG
Last edited by RayGubernat on Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Grange » Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:06 am

JKP wrote: I don't understand how the dog that finds the most game and handles it well WOULDN'T have desire and all the other qualities
JKP wrote:I understand what you want...and I, like others here, have been "prodding" the discussion along.
It's obvious that you are just "prodding".

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by proudag08 » Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:58 am

So this morning I was talking to my wife about the arguement here and I thought I would let you guys in on her take. Keep in mind that she is a 1st grade teacher and knows only the basics of bird hunting. Here is her take:

I think style should be more important. (**insert my suprised look because my wife is a very practical person most of the time, I thought she'd say efficiency**) Its like a kid and reading. Just because a kid can tell you what the words say individually doesnt mean that the kid can string those words into a sentance. In the same way, just because a dog fills a game bag/ points birds doesnt mean that it is doing what is does to the best of its ability. There is tone, inflection, diction, dictation and many other variables involved with making a kid into the best reader they can be. Also, just because a kid can read with tone and inflection, doesnt mean they are going to win the National Spelling Bee! So my (her) point is that just like when measuring how well one kid can read over another, there is more that goes in to it than just being able to pronounce the words.

I thought that was very well said. Thats why I married her! :lol:

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Duane M » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:12 pm

proudag08 wrote:So this morning I was talking to my wife about the arguement here and I thought I would let you guys in on her take. Keep in mind that she is a 1st grade teacher and knows only the basics of bird hunting. Here is her take:

I think style should be more important. (**insert my suprised look because my wife is a very practical person most of the time, I thought she'd say efficiency**) Its like a kid and reading. Just because a kid can tell you what the words say individually doesnt mean that the kid can string those words into a sentance. In the same way, just because a dog fills a game bag/ points birds doesnt mean that it is doing what is does to the best of its ability. There is tone, inflection, diction, dictation and many other variables involved with making a kid into the best reader they can be. Also, just because a kid can read with tone and inflection, doesnt mean they are going to win the National Spelling Bee! So my (her) point is that just like when measuring how well one kid can read over another, there is more that goes in to it than just being able to pronounce the words.

I thought that was very well said. Thats why I married her! :lol:
Well I can see what she is getting at, even it's kinda an apples and lychee fruit kinda comparison. Style in regards to bird dogs just really doesnt play a role in finding birds, it can have an affect on stamina in regards to gait, angulation of the hips, set of the forelegs and back muscles as well. Where the style thing comes in is when the emphasis is placed on the wrong end of the dog, the tail don't find birds but I have seen dogs I KNEW for a fact had sub par noses, were far from easy to work with and really lacked in others areas, bred merely on the set of the tails. Maybe a beauty pageant would be better comparison as the physical attributes go to style not efficiency 90% of the time. The tail also does not put the intelligence in a dog for training as well as using it's ability most efficiently either, once again wrong end of the animal. Like in a beauty queen she may have all the "tools" but can she use em. Style just simply doesnt and shouldnt place above efficiency of the entire dog and thats not just bird finding efficiency.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by ACooper » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:18 pm

RayGubernat wrote:
JKP wrote:
The best field trial judging attempts to find the best dog and by that is meant the best dog, OVERALL. Not JUST the best birdfinder
To me this is the disconnect and why there is such a PR problem with FT. I understand what you want...and I, like others here, have been "prodding" the discussion along. Finding game IS what 98% of the hunting public wants. Telling them that you want your dogs to do that too BUT at the same time run the far ridge to do it, not find too many birds so as to show it can run hard for an hour, be in touch but necessarily in sight, etc, etc, etc....just not what the vast majority of the public can relate to. FT has taken style and put it ahead of utility...and then wants to tell us that with style (and a GPS unit) you get utility. In the discussion of style and efficiency (that is where we started, isn't it), we can read a less than subtle belief among trialers that the right style will bring with it efficiency. If a dog works the ground in a certain way, show desire, stamina, and can be trained to behave properly on contact.....it will be therefore efficient.

This discussion will never be resolved...IMO, its really a discussion about how each of us likes to hunt. Some like to see their dog work...other are excited by following their GPS to a find (the Mario Brothers generation??).
There is a disconnect, you are quite right. However the disconnect is that you don't WANT to understand the other parts of what makes up the complete upland bird dog. You want to dismiss them as unimportant. They are part and parcel of what makes up a good bird dog. Your unwillingness to consider the total package of talents that are showcased and required of the trial dog is the single reason why the the discussion will never be resolved. At least that is this writer's opinion. You are not the only one who can take on the mantle of reptresenting the hunting public. I can slip that over my shoulders occasionally also.

One more time...

I would assume that most hunters might want a dog that can hunt for three or four hours at a stretch. I know I do. If a dog can run hard for an hour in front of a horse and have something left in the gas tank at the end, it is a pretty good bet that it can hunt in front of a walking hunter for multiple hours. Mine always have been able to.

A dog that can hunt without tiring, for several hours will also be able to find more birds...at least I think so. I sincerely believe that a dog which is physically exhautsed cannot be as effective a hunter as one that is not.

A dog that can run to the next ridge in search of game...CAN. When hunting, just because the dog CAN does not mean that it MUST. But the fact remains that if the situation calls for it...the dog CAN.

You mention GPS units with disdain as if they are part and parcel of field trials. Of course, you conveniently FORGET to mention that use of a GPS, E-collar or any other type electronic tracking or training device ARE NOT PERMITTED DURING THE TRIAL. If you have to pull out the tracker, the dog is disqualified.

The real fact that you refuse to consider is this: Those big running dogs HAVE TO stay in contact, because if the dog is lost it cannot be placed. You cannot win with a lost dog. Period. Which is a more capable dog? Is it the one that never goes out of sight? Or is it the dog that does run out of sight occasionally, but has enough willingness to stay in touch with their handler/hunter to actually come back from over that far hill.

As far as style is concerned...a part of style is the willingness of the dog to stand its birds, tall and proud...until the handler gets there. Why in the world would someone NOT want that? I mean really!!

The truly funny(sad) thing is that the best of the field trial dogs CAN do all the things that the typical upland hunter wants and needs...and do it with class and style. When you breed to that kind of dog, you get most of that ability in the progeny. If you are a half decent trainer, you should be able to use what parts of those abilities you need and NOT allow the parts you do not need or want to develop.

Of course if one is unable or unwilling to do the required training, one would naturally gravitate to the kind of dog that doesn't require much in the way of training and will give an acceptable level of hunting performance with little input from the human half of the hunting team. And of course, the acceptable level of performance becomes the new(LOWER) standard and expectation for such folks because we all want to believe our dog is the best there is even when they might not be.

Everyone wants a bird dog that comes out of the birth canal with all the natural talents to seek and find birds, point and retrieve and the ability to develop those talents by simply running the dog in cover with birds. ME TOO!! Unfortunately, it don't really work that way too awful often.

RayG
I also posted this in the "got me thinking thread"

I would guess that most "hunters" don't know that GDF exists and they take their ol dog out to hunt somewhere and shoot birds that the dogs find pointed or not, many of these birds are probably throw down birds at a perserve, I would also guess that most of them get a little concerned when their dog goes out of sight for long... Thats what I would guess MOST hunters are like. The majority here is the minority in the real world.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by slistoe » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:25 pm

JKP wrote:
The best field trial judging attempts to find the best dog and by that is meant the best dog, OVERALL. Not JUST the best birdfinder
To me this is the disconnect and why there is such a PR problem with FT. I understand what you want...and I, like others here, have been "prodding" the discussion along. Finding game IS what 98% of the hunting public wants. Telling them that you want your dogs to do that too BUT at the same time run the far ridge to do it, not find too many birds so as to show it can run hard for an hour, be in touch but necessarily in sight, etc, etc, etc....just not what the vast majority of the public can relate to. FT has taken style and put it ahead of utility...and then wants to tell us that with style (and a GPS unit) you get utility. In the discussion of style and efficiency (that is where we started, isn't it), we can read a less than subtle belief among trialers that the right style will bring with it efficiency. If a dog works the ground in a certain way, show desire, stamina, and can be trained to behave properly on contact.....it will be therefore efficient.

This discussion will never be resolved...IMO, its really a discussion about how each of us likes to hunt. Some like to see their dog work...other are excited by following their GPS to a find (the Mario Brothers generation??).
The disconnect happens because you want so badly to believe that the trialling process does not produce usable hunting dogs that you focus on meaningless minutia to denigrate in your own mind the sport so that you can justify the unwarranted position you have taken.

Is it possible for the dog with the most finds in a trial to lose? YES. Is it probable? NO. The fact is that the majority of the time the dog with the most birds will win the stake. Many people have tried to explain to you (and others in this discussion over the past 20 years of internet) the circumstances under which the exceptions will happen. If it is your sincere belief that a dog that sits or lays down on point, cowers from its handler, tucks it's tail under it's legs upon flush or other such things would be an ideal candidate for breeding stock to make more exceptional bird dogs simply on the virtue of it having found more birds than another dog in the competition then the disconnect will continue to exist.
There is no belief that formalities bring with it efficiency, but rather that the study of efficient dogs has brought about the structure of formalities which define an efficient dog.
And no, this is not just about how each of us likes to hunt. This is another lost leader, a subtle subterfuge of what you want to push as an inferior hunt process through demeaning comments and unrealistic generalizations.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:33 pm

JKP lets say you have a dog we will say a GSP for example.The dog has a Great nose & almost always finds birds but he keeps his tail clmped to his rear ALL the time moving & on point don't even seem to wag it.
Would you own it & breed it?

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by JKP » Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:53 pm

JKP lets say you have a dog we will say a GSP for example.The dog has a Great nose & almost always finds birds but he keeps his tail clmped to his rear ALL the time moving & on point don't even seem to wag it.
Would you own it & breed it?
NO....but this dog isn't going to find the most game. This isn't a confident dog..such a dog doesn't find the most game. Who the heck is talking about such a dog?

I'm behaving badly and poking fun at trialing....as I've said, its good for some breeds, but I am VERY glad that its not an influence in mine...have no interest in seeing 45lb white DD :lol: :lol: :lol: When I see the photos of the GWP nationals placement, the first question that comes to my mind is "what breed is that?"....all courtesy of field trialing.
The disconnect happens because you want so badly to believe that the trialling process does not produce usable hunting dogs
Absolutely wrong...I do and I have stated it. Remember this is a discussion about style and my comments addressed that. I'll say it again...
FT has taken style and put it ahead of utility...and then wants to tell us that with style (and a GPS unit) you get utility. In the discussion of style and efficiency (that is where we started, isn't it), we can read a less than subtle belief among trialers that the right style will bring with it efficiency. If a dog works the ground in a certain way, shows desire, stamina, and can be trained to behave properly on contact.....it will be therefore efficient.
If you don't think there is some truth in this, you have problems looking at the sport honestly. There is a lot of "showtime" in FT...its a performance best executed without too many finds.

I would love to have recordings of what FT folks have told me privately over the years about the sport....

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by brad27 » Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:26 pm

FT has taken style and put it ahead of utility...and then wants to tell us that with style (and a GPS unit) you get utility. In the discussion of style and efficiency (that is where we started, isn't it), we can read a less than subtle belief among trialers that the right style will bring with it efficiency. If a dog works the ground in a certain way, shows desire, stamina, and can be trained to behave properly on contact.....it will be therefore efficient.


If you don't think there is some truth in this, you have problems looking at the sport honestly. There is a lot of "showtime" in FT...its a performance best executed without too many finds.
and you know this because you trial right?

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:59 pm

JKP that dog I described won several NSTRA trials untill he came up with a Sinus infection & was owned by Bill Drake who was very successfull in NSTRA untill he quit.This was many yrs ago early 90's.
The dog was sired by Hickory Dickory Doc.NSTRA the most finds usually wins & he did.So make fun of F Trials all you want & keep on believing most finds come from the best dogs & most finds over rides everything else.If you believe that then run in venues that reward the MOST FINDS but don't participate in other venues that rewards the whole performance I cry about it if the most finds DON'T win!!
It's that simple!! :D

Oh my AVATAR dog she weighs about 45 lbs her sire Sonny is 70lbs her mother (Wendy about 52 lbs about the limit I want for a female GSP)!! & I really don't want any 70 lb males.
Last edited by Vonzeppelinkennels on Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by slistoe » Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:22 am

JKP wrote:
slistoe wrote:The disconnect happens because you want so badly to believe that the trialling process does not produce usable hunting dogs
Absolutely wrong...I do and I have stated it. Remember this is a discussion about style and my comments addressed that. I'll say it again...
FT has taken style and put it ahead of utility...and then wants to tell us that with style (and a GPS unit) you get utility. In the discussion of style and efficiency (that is where we started, isn't it), we can read a less than subtle belief among trialers that the right style will bring with it efficiency. If a dog works the ground in a certain way, shows desire, stamina, and can be trained to behave properly on contact.....it will be therefore efficient.
If you don't think there is some truth in this, you have problems looking at the sport honestly. There is a lot of "showtime" in FT...its a performance best executed without too many finds.
Well, you are certainly convinced in your own mind that the things of which you have absolutely no firsthand knowledge about and have imagined to be true are that. You live in a fantasy world where you are right in your own mind. There is no truth in what you have quoted yourself as saying. I, along with many others who are hunters first and foremost yet have competed successfully in trials with their hunting dogs, have quite clearly explained to you the fallacy in your thought process yet you still believe it.
JKP wrote:I would love to have recordings of what FT folks have told me privately over the years about the sport....
Hey, did you hear this! Johnny's cousin heard from a fellow in Texas that is friends with this big time trialler......

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by nikegundog » Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:32 am

Wouldn't be best for us all just to leave the personnel attacks out of this and have a open debate.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by JKP » Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:52 am

Wouldn't be best for us all just to leave the personnel attacks out of this and have a open debate.
Don't think I did attack anyone?? But it sure is a lot easier than debating the topic. :lol: :lol: :lol:

VonZ,
Let me give you just one example of where "style" is more important than hunting. When dogs break away, what does a handler want? a dog that hunts the ground ahead of it???...or a dog that lines out 4-800 yds straight ahead going away?
The trainers I know want to see the "butt end" on the dog go out of sight and then appear on the far ridge....two finds with style and manners will do...finish strong....and they're in the money. Running past the first 1/2 mile of cover is a good thing.

If you can't chuckle at this...you have no chance of seeing your "sport" honestly.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:04 am

JKP wrote:
Wouldn't be best for us all just to leave the personnel attacks out of this and have a open debate.

Don't think I did attack anyone?? But it sure is a lot easier than debating the topic. :lol: :lol: :lol:
If you don't think you did then why did you think the post was aimed at you? I read it and didn't think it was so I am curious. But is good advice for everyone.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by slistoe » Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:15 am

JKP wrote: Let me give you just one example of where "style" is more important than hunting. When dogs break away, what does a handler want? a dog that hunts the ground ahead of it???...or a dog that lines out 4-800 yds straight ahead going away?
The trainers I know want to see the "butt end" on the dog go out of sight and then appear on the far ridge....two finds with style and manners will do...finish strong....and they're in the money. Running past the first 1/2 mile of cover is a good thing.

If you can't chuckle at this...you have no chance of seeing your "sport" honestly.
And you know this because you have been there and done it?
Here is what I can tell you from experience. If your dog busts the birds 100 yards from the line you will have the shortest run you ever paid money for. A strong start gets noticed, but a strong finish gets remembered. Running past 1/2 mile of cover (or any cover) is NEVER a good thing.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by adogslife » Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:27 am

Can you explain what a break away is?

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by slistoe » Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:42 am

When the dogs are released from the line at the start of a trial brace.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by slistoe » Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:44 am

JKP, i must apologize as my NEVER was too strong. There are circumstances when the dog MUST run past cover. When the dog is trying to regain or hold the front. A dog that will go with his handler is paramount. No willy-nilly, follow the dog wherever he goes cause he has the nose stuff allowed.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by adogslife » Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:53 am

Cn you explain what a judge is looking for in the break away?

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by baileydog2007 » Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:59 am

This thread is hilarious. While I have not trialed, I have been to a few and I have hunted with a couple dog who are decent (at least in my view) at trials. I think those dogs are very good hunting dogs. One of them (a gsp) hunts way too big for my liking, but he is an excellent hunter. Tough to hunt behind for me, on SD pheasants cuz he is so far out and the birds just dont hold, at least thats how I see it. But he is definately a good/great birddog, IMO. I have alos had and known some "meat" dogs, that I think could trial, but for one reason or another, didnt.

I dont think its about weather a trial dog can be a hunting dog or if a "meat dog" could trial. I think, if the owner of either wanted to, either dog could do either, just fine. IMO, its the people involved. Trialers believe their dogs are superior and those who own "meat dogs" are convinced that trial dogs are only good for trials. I am in awe of some of the dogs I have seen trial, and have no idea how a hunter could think they wouldnt be good hunting dogs. I have hunted with a few terrific hunting dogs, and dont get how a trialer would believe the dog couldnt compete. I have a very small sample size of trialers I have met, but I honestly havent met one who didnt come off as condescending or arrogant. Meaning, they feel (or at least come off as though they feel) their dog and the dogs who are involved with the venue they support, are the best of the best, without exception. Which may or may not be true, but its not because they trial, its because they train. The trials are just the way those dogs exibit the hours and hours of training.

The only other thing I think (again its a very small sample size, but others have said it in this thread as well), is the judging doesnt seem consistent/unbias, to me. I dont claim to be qualified to be a judge, but I did listen, and even amongst those competeing, there seemed to a "good ol boys" network who had the deck stacked in their favor.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Chukar12 » Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:48 am

Wow you have been able to draw a lot more specific conclusions in attending a few than I have been able to in the thirty or forty I have competed in. I have to get over the naivity

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by baileydog2007 » Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:52 am

Chukar12 wrote:Wow you have been able to draw a lot more specific conclusions in attending a few than I have been able to in the thirty or forty I have competed in. I have to get over the naivity
Didnt say they were facts. They are my opinions, based on (admittedly) a small sample size. If those are my experiences, what should my opinions be??? I should base my opinions on what others say or have experienced??? Maybe in time my personal experiences will change my opinions. I didnt say that what I think is factual, but it is, in fact, what I experienced, so to date, those are my observations/opinions. Your smart reply, tends to back up my beliefs. Since you (an expert trialer and likely in the "good ol boys club"), dont agree with my opinion, I have to be wrong, and you, of course, are right.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Chukar12 » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:00 am

No by all means no...I just haven't found that many negatives around dog people. It's been my experience that outside a few isolated incidents that are common place in any gathering of homosapiens things are generally just and those who approach things with an open mind are embraced. It is true that the occasional know it all will arrive or the professional turd in the punch bowl that is surrounded by their force field of negativity...and they have conflict...but it's usually their second or third of the day after the morning spat with their wife and the guy at am/pm over the coffee price.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by baileydog2007 » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:14 am

Chukar12 wrote:No by all means no...I just haven't found that many negatives around dog people. It's been my experience that outside a few isolated incidents that are common place in any gathering of homosapiens things are generally just and those who approach things with an open mind are embraced. It is true that the occasional know it all will arrive or the professional turd in the punch bowl that is surrounded by their force field of negativity...and they have conflict...but it's usually their second or third of the day after the morning spat with their wife and the guy at am/pm over the coffee price.
The fact that this thread, and one that was locked, have many of the posters on here name-calling and taking sides, leads me to think there is a pretty polarizing divide, even in the "dog people". If not, threads wouldnt be locked and mods wouldnt have to pm folks. Im sure you do have good experiences at trials, since you trial. Thats sort of my point. Its when someone who doesnt trial has a question, an opinion, an observation, ect. Myself, I dont care if a dog hunts well or trials well, the only way that happens is from good breeding, a lot of training, and exposure. The trial vs hunting arguement is a foolish one, IMO. The degree of success a dog has doing either, is a product of the 3 things I mentioned, they arent good dogs because they place at trials or because they fill a limit, those are just the way each dogs owner chooses apply the dogs training/breeding/experience. Dogs just want to hunt, its the people and their egos that cause the divide, IMO.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Croix » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:22 am

Baileydog2007,
Agree with what you said. IMO

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by JKP » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:26 am

Another possible example of style over efficiency....

Can a Derby dog place/point without a find?? If I'm not mistaken, Derby dogs are generally 1-2 years old...and Derby points count towards a Championship. Do they need to find game to win/place? And if not, isn't style taking precedence over efficiency?? If I'm mistaken about this, I apologize.

I am NOT against trialing....I just prefer to see every dog game for what it is. I have equal problems with Vdogs that are perfectly trained to 75 yd boredom.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Chukar12 » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:28 am

I agree Bailey the use of a dog and its worth is determined by the owner...and I pretty much like them all. I do trial you are correct Otr2 and a half years now...I am on an airplane going to a trial now...but I don't show dogs or participle in sled dogs or agility and i like all those folks

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by nikegundog » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:37 am

I'm a Non-trialer, I attended a couple trials and a hunt test this summer (spaniels and retrievers), the trialers there could not have been more friendly or helpful. On a forum, expressing ones views, is a whole different story on both side of the fence.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by brad27 » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:37 am

JKP wrote:Another possible example of style over efficiency....

Can a Derby dog place/point without a find?? If I'm not mistaken, Derby dogs are generally 1-2 years old...and Derby points count towards a Championship. Do they need to find game to win/place? And if not, isn't style taking precedence over efficiency?? If I'm mistaken about this, I apologize.

I am NOT against trialing....I just prefer to see every dog game for what it is. I have equal problems with Vdogs that are perfectly trained to 75 yd boredom.
No, a derby cannot place without a find. Puppy stakes are the only ones that finding birds is not a requirement. However, it is a bonus.

I will also add that a birdless dog in a broke stake will never place.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Elkhunter » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:42 am

brad27 wrote:
JKP wrote:Another possible example of style over efficiency....

Can a Derby dog place/point without a find?? If I'm not mistaken, Derby dogs are generally 1-2 years old...and Derby points count towards a Championship. Do they need to find game to win/place? And if not, isn't style taking precedence over efficiency?? If I'm mistaken about this, I apologize.

I am NOT against trialing....I just prefer to see every dog game for what it is. I have equal problems with Vdogs that are perfectly trained to 75 yd boredom.
No, a derby cannot place without a find. Puppy stakes are the only ones that finding birds is not a requirement. However, it is a bonus.

I will also add that a birdless dog in a broke stake will never place.
AF derbies can place without a find.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by ezzy333 » Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:59 am

Chukar12 wrote:Wow you have been able to draw a lot more specific conclusions in attending a few than I have been able to in the thirty or forty I have competed in. I have to get over the naivity
I am with you. Seems I am just dense because many people can pick up on all of the corruption in our little world by reading something on the net and don't even have to go to the events or participate. And the other side is the people who participate become instant authorities on all dog and hunting activities. I'm just too slow to learn so fast from questionable sources

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by brad27 » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:09 am

Elkhunter wrote:
brad27 wrote:
JKP wrote:Another possible example of style over efficiency....

Can a Derby dog place/point without a find?? If I'm not mistaken, Derby dogs are generally 1-2 years old...and Derby points count towards a Championship. Do they need to find game to win/place? And if not, isn't style taking precedence over efficiency?? If I'm mistaken about this, I apologize.

I am NOT against trialing....I just prefer to see every dog game for what it is. I have equal problems with Vdogs that are perfectly trained to 75 yd boredom.
No, a derby cannot place without a find. Puppy stakes are the only ones that finding birds is not a requirement. However, it is a bonus.

I will also add that a birdless dog in a broke stake will never place.
AF derbies can place without a find.
I didn't know that. I was thinking AKC. :oops:

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by baileydog2007 » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:17 am

ezzy333 wrote:
Chukar12 wrote:Wow you have been able to draw a lot more specific conclusions in attending a few than I have been able to in the thirty or forty I have competed in. I have to get over the naivity
I am with you. Seems I am just dense because many people can pick up on all of the corruption in our little world by reading something on the net and don't even have to go to the events or participate. And the other side is the people who participate become instant authorities on all dog and hunting activities. I'm just too slow to learn so fast from questionable sources

Ezzy
As I said, I have a small amount of experience, BUT, in my limited experience, those are my observations??? Should I lie and say folks were pleasant and helpful, when in fact they were the opposite? The very fact you discount the idea I have had bad experiences shows you are bias and don't believe its possible that you guys (not you specifically, as Ive never met you) "in your little world" can come off condescending and arrogant know it alls??? I didnt form a single OPINION based on anything I read, not one. I based my opinion on my personal experience, albeit a limited one. I don't claim to "know" anything about the trial world, but I do know that I'm able to have an opinion, based on a personal experience. Maybe I could go to 10 more and meet the nicest guys in the world all 10 times, then my opinion would surely change. But for me, and what Ive been exposed to, it sure does not appear to be a sport that wants anyone new.

This is an example of what you don't know after reading something. You are upset with me when I am on your side in much of this. I to have opinions but I do not feel the need to express every one of them since they have nothing to do with changing anything about trials or hunting. My point is there are a few that feel it is necessary to ridicule anyone that has opinions different than theirs and it normally is based with a minimum of exposure to what they are feel so strongly about. And it is true with individuals on both side of the fence.

Another example is there are almost 5000 members on this board and there are only 10 or so that feel the necessity to even post on this subject. And everyone of them have their personal opinion.

Ezzy

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:22 am

AF Derbies & Broke dogs can place without a find & in rare cases can even win or place over a dog with finds.

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