Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:42 am

JKP,regarding the breaaway a couple things your not even thinking of,one these are trials dogs they learn that birds aren't at the beginning of the course so they beat their butts to where they know the birds will be.
Two the break away area usually is not the best looking cover so they head for what is.That's one thing hunters don't understand why the dogs run as hard & fast as they do they run to the BEST looking cover hunt it & run to the next & like slistoe said they have to stay to the front no dog will win coming from the rear.So tell me I don't see it it for what it is.The real problem is you don't understand any of it.If you trial your purpose is to win or atleast have a chance & you have no chance at the start when the other dog,handlers,& JUDGES are half way around the course.Remember you only have 1/2 to hr or possibbly 3 not ALL DAY!!

Did you read my reply about the winning dog with his tail between his legs?? You said a dog with no style won't have the MOST FINDS wrong again he won at NSTRA where the most finds usually gets you a win!!
Did you read about the dog with the most finds 5 never placed because she was deemed TOO BIG for the stake?
These example blows ALL your theories out of the WATER.

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:00 pm

JKP wrote:Another possible example of style over efficiency....

Can a Derby dog place/point without a find?? If I'm not mistaken, Derby dogs are generally 1-2 years old...and Derby points count towards a Championship. Do they need to find game to win/place? And if not, isn't style taking precedence over efficiency??

Again another example of picking an insignificant minutia that you don't understand to making a sweeping condemnation. There are no points in AF trials, only AKC. There are no placements for Derbies in AKC without pointing a bird.
Yes, it is possible for an AF derby to place without pointing a bird. Is it probable? No. The extenuating circumstances under which this is possible to occur have been explained many times in this thread alone. The more likely scenario on AF Derby is that you will need near perfect broke dog manners on birds to win in the spring.

x Bred Pointer · Post by **x Bred Pointer** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:37 pm

Derby's are often placed without bird work especially in wild bird trials when the birds are really scarce.

I was reading the Field last night and saw a report on the Canadian Open Chicken Championship in Manitoba this past Sept. Only one bird was pointed in the whole trial and a champion was named for that find. A runner up champion was named on race alone. The dogs can't help it if there are no birds to find. Judges often place dogs on race and application. Planted bird trials are a different story as everyone knows there are birds out there to find.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:43 pm

You said a dog with no style won't have the MOST FINDS wrong again he won at NSTRA where the most finds usually gets you a win!!

Didn't know we were talking about NSTRA. I'm not talking about individual dogs and I'm not pointing my finger at people or insulting individuals. I'm talking about a sport...a very good one...I'm simply pointing out what is obvious...that style can trump efficiency/productivity in the sport. I don't know of any other dog venue where 20 month old dogs can be awarded points/placement with no finds...which would mean an N/A as far as nose, pointing and would have to raise question about the dogs search. Again, in certain instances style can win the day...style alone.

A while back, I posted this pic of one of my Euro mutts...south of Harvey, ND...in a section where we have always found sharpies over the years.

This pic is shot at 8X zoom...the dog has been over the rise and is headed back in my direction running across the prevailing wind. A nice 3-400 yd cast, using the wind, and hustling right along...the comment of the trialers on this site was that the dog shouldn't be angling towards me the handler....judging the picture on style...the dog is not running properly from a style perspective. Now I don't really care....not a credible dog anyway (no FT in the pedigree

) but these and many more comments, pictures and confirmed finds at 700 yds and such (GPS) communicate clearly that trialers are enamored with the extremes of the process and that the style of the run and find is really what floats the boat.

Have the last word....I'm a much bigger supporter than you might think of all serious dog folks no matter what their game....I just am a little more skeptical of the value of those games. For me FT dogs at best would be like a spice that you add carefully to the soup...

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:06 pm

JKP your not reading that right again DERBIES in AKC CAN NOT place with out pointing atleast one bird in the stake.In AF yes they can place with out a bird but there are no points in AF you don't accumulate points towards a CH in AF you have to win a CH trial.
I don't run NSTRA but my point was if you think finds trumps everything else then run your dog where finds are rewared the most which is NSTRA,usually the dog with the most finds wins regardless of style.
Come on you can't have it both ways.
The dog with the 5 finds but was too big proves a dog can have finds & still show it's run or too much run,that was a 1/2 hr OLGD stake.

Your trying to group all the venues together but they all have differences good & bad none are perfect but choose the one that best fits your beliefs don't choose one that doesn't fit how you think it should be & cry about the results.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:24 pm

Again, in certain instances style can win the day...style alone.

You are correct. Lets say you were judging a FT and there were 3 dogs that had 3 finds each. How would you determine the winner? What other metric would you use besides finds? maybe style..........................................?

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:36 pm

A little issue on perspective, I use the watch the BDC series, it chooses the dogs placements based first on the number of finds and then on the time (shots and retrieves are included), with no points for style. When you tell guys that dogs can't be judged on finds alone or without style points aren't you in fact criticizing a venue that many of you haven't played, and dismissing their scoring system. You are in fact being pretty hypocritical in some regards, just my observation. This doesn't apply obviously if you successfully played both games, then you would have a right to say whether or not finds alone is enough to pass judgment, correct?

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:45 pm

nikegundog wrote:A little issue on perspective, I use the watch the BDC series, it chooses the dogs placements based first on the number of finds and then on the time, with no points for style. When you tell guys that dogs can't be judged on finds alone or without style points aren't you in fact criticizing a venue that many of you haven't played, and dismissing their scoring system. You are in fact being pretty hypocritical in some regards, just my observation. This doesn't apply obviously if you successfully played both games, then you would have a right to say whether or not finds alone is enough to pass judgment, correct?

I'd say no. This thread is mostly about AKC/AF FT's. Different rules for different games.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:55 pm

brad27 wrote:
nikegundog wrote:A little issue on perspective, I use the watch the BDC series, it chooses the dogs placements based first on the number of finds and then on the time, with no points for style. When you tell guys that dogs can't be judged on finds alone or without style points aren't you in fact criticizing a venue that many of you haven't played, and dismissing their scoring system. You are in fact being pretty hypocritical in some regards, just my observation. This doesn't apply obviously if you successfully played both games, then you would have a right to say whether or not finds alone is enough to pass judgment, correct?
I'd say no. This thread is mostly about AKC/AF FT's. Different rules for different games.

I believe in the OP it mentioned like minded clubs starting tests/trials/and competitions, I don't understand were the OP said that this thread is about AKC/AF FT's.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:11 pm

Nike,

I competed in two Bdc events...so I am going to call myself qualified here...for what I am unclear about? The criticism is being directed at the akc/afc format. The discussion of the number of finds and it's relevance to placements et al is germane only to that piece of the conversation. We cannot from that place drag Bdc, Nstra, or navhda ( there you go Terry....inside conversation all the rest of you ignore this) into that can we? .....so I need help, where does the hypocrisy come in?

JKP, can't credibility also come from personal observation and or reputation relayed by trusted sources somewhere from the heart of common sense without a requirement that it be explicitly pointed out?

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:24 pm

Chukar12 wrote:Nike,

I competed in two Bdc events...so I am going to call myself qualified here...for what I am unclear about? The criticism is being directed at the akc/afc format. The discussion of the number of finds and it's relevance to placements et al is germane only to that piece of the conversation. We cannot from that place drag Bdc, Nstra, or navhda ( there you go Terry....inside conversation all the rest of you ignore this) into that can we? .....so I need help, where does the hypocrisy come in?

JKP, can't credibility also come from personal observation and or reputation relayed by trusted sources somewhere from the heart of common sense without a requirement that it be explicitly pointed out?

I felt that I could drag it into the discussion since in this thread I never discussed or criticized any event or eluded to the akc/afc format, I only mentioned how I judged dogs in the field outside any format. I was then told that the way I judged dogs (which is similar to the BDC) was not good enough. Thus I feel that it is germane to the conversation, and that is where the hypocrisy plays in. If this is only a discussion of akc/afc then this has no merit, but I don't believe in your OP you did not limit your scope.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:32 pm

Nope you are right I didn't...and for what it's worth the way you judge a dog should be entirely up to you. I think the ticklish area is when we make our views public and in the format that is clearly one for public debate our public reaction gets put under a microscope.

I have a question that I hope I frame correctly...short on time... Do those of you who are partial and or complete detractors from the akc/afc format have a concern that these venues are of a greater public awareness than others and because of that their influence on the breeds or their purpose is too great for the dogs as you see it?

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:49 pm

Nike that is rediculous if that is the case then all you guys saying finds trumps all are downing AKC & AF trials you know it works both ways.I have nothing against any of the venues but I chose what I liked HB F Trials.Here is something that I don't understand but hear all the time I want to watch my dog work so I don't want it 3,4,500 yrds or farther away.I hunt here in Ohio & the places I hunt are not golf courses they are thick heavy cover even the fields & even if I had a dog hunting at 25 yrs & in some cases 25 ft I can't see it.Believe this or not it can be easier to see a dog at 3 or 400 yrds off HB then 25 ft with weeds a foot over your head.I don't own a Garmin but do use a beeper & before that a bell.I do own a tracker but only put it on my FT dog not because afraid of loosing her but afraid of not being able to find her on point that she won't leave untill released.I have 9 dogs only 1 of them has been trialed but the 2nd will probably being heading south to start in a month or so.
Does any of this make sense to any of you?

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:59 pm

Here is something else I been thinking of today regarding running past cover.May make it easier for some to understand but maybe not.

Lets substitute a bassboat for the dog & a lake for the FT course,Ok we are setting on the lake at the dock,do we idle across the lake to start fishing the bank or do we put the hammer down & run to some cover we know usually hold fish?? Then we fish that cover then hammer down to the fish holding cover.To me that is more productive & effiecient then fishing around the WHOLE LAKE!

Thes dogs run these courses they learn where birds are they retain it,called intelligence.Open you mind & think about it.

nikegundog · Post by **nikegundog** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:05 pm

Von, at no time did I ever criticize ANY venue in this thread, all I did was tell how I judged dogs, that I judge dogs by finds rather than style is not a criticism. By me saying how I judge dogs doesn't trump anyone's venue. If I criticized any venue in this thread, please point it out to me. I believe you have confused what others have said, with what I have said, I have referenced range or speed in any of my posts.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:09 pm

WHAT?

Look - a dog has a NOSE.
If you want to use that boat example, you would need to include a fish finder. I don't mind a dog searching likely cover but they better not pass birds along the way. Otherwise they are not producing game for the gun. Style can not trump effeciency.

Any dog who passes birds better have a good reason.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:12 pm

That is my point did I critisize NSTRA dogs because I said the most finds usually wins?? That's the nature of that game not a critisizm.
AKC & AF trials judges the whole performance choose your game.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:15 pm

ADOGSLIFE have you ever F Trialed if the answer is no,enough said,& who says they are passing birds? Birds are not planted over the whole field & if hunting birds are not in the whole field.
BYE!!

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:17 pm

Yeah & hunting in the Dakotas is like fishing in a swimming pool.We call it hunting NOT SHOOTING.
Go back to the CLUB &

drink the rest of the day!!

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:18 pm

Ithacaslayer wrote:
Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Here is something else I been thinking of today regarding running past cover.May make it easier for some to understand but maybe not.

Lets substitute a bassboat for the dog & a lake for the FT course,Ok we are setting on the lake at the dock,do we idle across the lake to start fishing the bank or do we put the hammer down & run to some cover we know usually hold fish?? Then we fish that cover then hammer down to the fish holding cover.To me that is more productive & effiecient then fishing around the WHOLE LAKE!
Thes dogs run these courses they learn where birds are they retain it,called intelligence.Open you mind & think about it.

All well and good, but what if this is what pheasant/Hun/Sharpie country looks like? And it usually does.

Hunting the Dakotas is nothing like fishing as you describe.
If you look for objectives, you ramble on for 5-10 miles hoping to come to a fenceline.
Meanwhile, we've limited out and back in the club while youre hoping for a point on a fenc or tree line.

What in the world is so hard to understand that people who have dogs usualy train them to hunt in the method they like just the same as each of you do but that does not in any way say one is better than the other. Enjoy what you have but do not ever get caught in the trap of think yours are the best as someone will come along and prove you wrong

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:21 pm

Ezzy don't you lock this & don't expect me to set hear & listen to all this BS without replying.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:29 pm

von zepp,

I've never field trialed.

It was posted that only one dog pointed a bird at aFT, That dog won. Where are the birds that only one dog pointed?
Maybe the birds are NOT in likely cover?Likely cover that is for a FT dog? Why aren't the dog's searches productive enough to find birds?
This is not rocket science.
The dog either uses nose and intelligence to produce or it's blinking,over running or can't smell them.

In a vdog event I'll accept a 0 or 1 in point (never happend) but I would hang my head low,real low, if the dog recieved a 0 in nose.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:30 pm

We are ALSO talking trialing not hunting & if you trial & want to win which is the object of the GAME your dog better get to the birds & finish the course.
Now if your talking hunting I don't live in the Dakotas I live in OHIO & hunt here not much here that looks like that so come here & experience hunting in the EAST it's tough I agree but your dogs can learn to hunt here just as my dogs can out there.

baileydog2007 · Post by **baileydog2007** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:31 pm

Chukar12 wrote:Nope you are right I didn't...and for what it's worth the way you judge a dog should be entirely up to you. I think the ticklish area is when we make our views public and in the format that is clearly one for public debate our public reaction gets put under a microscope.

I have a question that I hope I frame correctly...short on time... Do those of you who are partial and or complete detractors from the akc/afc format have a concern that these venues are of a greater public awareness than others and because of that their influence on the breeds or their purpose is too great for the dogs as you see it?

Im certainly not opposed to any akc/afc event, however I dont compete. For me, as guy who loves dogs, enjoys training them, watching good dog work-either hunting or competing, and will always have a dog or two, I find trials/tests very valuable. Unless I have hunted of the sire and dam of a litter, I depend on the breeder and pedigree to begin my search for my next dog. If I cant hunt with or watch the dogs in person, how they compete is important to me. I think if a dog does well competing, it can do well hunting. Now, if I talk to a breeder and he says that 'ol Roy is a heck of a hunter, so the pups otta be good too, not sure Id be sold. Now if they show me what ol Roy has done in akc/afc, Id be inclined to believe him. In fact, akc/af are, for me, a better guage than BDC,for example, thats just me. As I have said, my dad runs in a version of that, and it boils down to the winner usually finding, flushing/pointing, and retrieving 3 birds in under 5 minutes??? 5 minutes, seriously?? Yuk. But thats just me.

I dont even know why a person would complain about any specific venue, if it doesnt fit you, dont run in it, find another game. I get why some folks get offended (probably not the right word, but all I have right now) when some "experts" claim the game they play is the "best judge of a dog" or whatever. Or that somehow a dog that that ranges 5-600 yds is somehow a better dog than one that doesnt. Situationally or individually that dog might be a better fit, but a better dog??

This has been one entertaining thread for me. Clearly a polarizing topic. For me, I like almost all things dogs, and if dogs could run the events, they'd probably be a lot more open minded and friendly.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:32 pm

Ok, you said it.
Trialing is NOT hunting.
It's about winning. The attributes required to win a FT are not the same as effeciency during the hunt.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:33 pm

That's as I thought take your dog to a trial & if it wins good for you I'll congratulate you,but it's not your thing as yours is not mine so can't compare either.

baileydog2007 · Post by **baileydog2007** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:34 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Yeah & hunting in the Dakotas is like fishing in a swimming pool.We call it hunting NOT SHOOTING.
Go back to the CLUB & drink the rest of the day!!

So, when a person choses to hunt where the bird population is good, thats a bad thing??? WTH. One of the weirdest things Ive ever heard. So, should a guy plan a hunting trip to a place where game is sparce so they can claim they are a mightier hunter, since they were foolish enough to go hunting in a worse spot??? Strange.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:35 pm

GEE I'm sorry what is any competion about? But I guess that's why the kids no longer keep score!!Don't want any winners & LOOSERS!!

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:39 pm

Never said it was BAD I just don't have a $1000 for gas to run to Dakotas every wk end & don't claim to be a mighty hunter but I hunt whats available & don't have to brag about it.
That makes them so great because they can kill birds where you don't even need a dog to do it? I'd say that make them the MIGHTY HUNTERS!!

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:46 pm

I guess I'm a competive person I like it.I fished bass tournaments there are winners & loosers,I boxed,I played baseball & was my dream to play pro ball but hurt my arm as a sophmore in high school.
I played ball when we wore steel spikes & used wooden bats & WE KEPT SCORE & went to CHAMPIONSHIP GAMES! WHY TO WIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Elkhunter · Post by **Elkhunter** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:50 pm

adogslife wrote:von zepp,

I've never field trialed.

It was posted that only one dog pointed a bird at aFT, That dog won. Where are the birds that only one dog pointed?
Maybe the birds are NOT in likely cover?Likely cover that is for a FT dog? Why aren't the dog's searches productive enough to find birds?
This is not rocket science.
The dog either uses nose and intelligence to produce or it's blinking,over running or can't smell them.

In a vdog event I'll accept a 0 or 1 in point (never happend) but I would hang my head low,real low, if the dog recieved a 0 in nose.

You need to go to an all wild bird trial. Areas where you can find grounds to run on, that actually have wild birds and will let you run on them are very difficult to come by. You have to stay on the specific course, you cant just let your dog run helter skelter all over the place to find birds. If there are not birds that are on course when you run, your dog dont find birds. Dont knock a trial till you have been to one and have some understanding of how they work.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:53 pm

DO any of you think for one minute someone chooses to go to a trial to LOOSE ?? I enjoy the competition,I enjoy most of the people,I enjoy the food,I enjoy watching the dogs,but I'm also there to WIN!!

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:55 pm

ELK that don't understand because then they would have NOTHING to cry about.
Dogslife do you go to your vdog venues to FAIL ??
I didn't think so.

baileydog2007 · Post by **baileydog2007** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:16 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Never said it was BAD I just don't have a $1000 for gas to run to Dakotas every wk end & don't claim to be a mighty hunter but I hunt whats available & don't have to brag about it.
That makes them so great because they can kill birds where you don't even need a dog to do it? I'd say that make them the MIGHTY HUNTERS!!

I go to SD 2x every season. Could I get birds without a dog?? Sure, but I wouldnt even go if I didnt have a dog, to me, hunting without a dog, just isnt any fun. But, since SD has too many birds, I would be "more of a hunter" if I went to.....say northern Wisconsin to hunt pheasants, where there isnt any, to test my dogs bird finding ability???? Makes no sense, at all.

As far as your competitiveness, thats a good thing, IMO, NO ONE enters a test, trial, or competition to lose, no one. While Im very competitive as well, Im not a sore loser or a bad winner either. Sportsmanship is as important as competitiveness, many folks are competitive, fewer and fewer practice good sportsmanship, IMO. Not in the dog sports specifically, in sports in general.

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:28 pm

baileydog2007 wrote:[

I go to SD 2x every season. Could I get birds without a dog?? Sure, but I wouldnt even go if I didnt have a dog, to me, hunting without a dog, just isnt any fun. But, since SD has too many birds, I would be "more of a hunter" if I went to.....say northern Wisconsin to hunt pheasants, where there isnt any, to test my dogs bird finding ability???? Makes no sense, at all.

Here's the thing. This isn't about you and how much of a hunter you are. The whole dust up started because some fellow claimed his dogs were much better and offered as proof that he could shoot a limit every day over his dogs in ND.
If you want to state your dog is really a bird finder it makes no sense at all to use a measuring stick where anyone with two legs or a wheelchair can find more than enough birds.

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:31 pm

adogslife wrote:The attributes required to win a FT are not the same as effeciency during the hunt.

The attributes required to win a FT are the base attributes that contribute to the development of an efficient hunting dog. They are not separate nor distinct entities.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:35 pm

So you consider me a bad sportsman ? for what reason Im just replying to all the F trial critisizm. No one has ever heard me complain about not winning or I can't compete because my dog finds more birds but was beat by more style etc & etc.I will tell you this I always want to win but I have lost a whole lot more then I have won & there are very few that can say their luck has gone the other way but there are a few.If I was a bad sportsman I would probably quit join a dog forum & complain about how unfair things are.
I want to ask if you hunt does your dog ALWAYS find birds & if not why,do you think all the birds disappeared that day? I hunt & find no birds some days but the birds are still there some where.
I'm being truthful not fabricating stories for your enjoyment.Some people just don't like hearing the truth.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:38 pm

Ithaca now tell me whos the bad sportsman & crying about being outfound as you say.We been through this it's not finds it's the whole performance.
You wouldn't be Birddogz in disguise would you?

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:40 pm

In a Baseball game does the ump ever make a bad call does the best fighter always win if a fisherman weighs in more fish then me did he cheat?
Wine wine wine boo hoo!!

baileydog2007 · Post by **baileydog2007** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:44 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:So you consider me a bad sportsman ? for what reason Im just replying to all the F trial critisizm. No one has ever heard me complain about not winning or I can't compete because my dog finds more birds but was beat by more style etc & etc.I will tell you this I always want to win but I have lost a whole lot more then I have won & there are very few that can say their luck has gone the other way but there are a few.If I was a bad sportsman I would probably quit join a dog forum & complain about how unfair things are.
I want to ask if you hunt does your dog ALWAYS find birds & if not why,do you think all the birds disappeared that day? I hunt & find no birds some days but the birds are still there some where.
I'm being truthful not fabricating stories for your enjoyment.Some people just don't like hearing the truth.

No, no, no. I didnt mean you are a bad sport all. Sorry if thats how you took that, poorly worded on my part I guess. I just said I totally understand your competitiveness, my sportmanship comment, was just that, an observation, not intended for you, at all.

I also never said I find birds everytime I hunt, in fact, was in the grouse woods 2x this week and only heard one bird, one day. I sure dont think they disappeared, thats hunting. Not sure what made you think Im an expert bird finder?? My apologies, as I sure didnt mean to imply that either.

baileydog2007 · Post by **baileydog2007** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:45 pm

baileydog2007 wrote:
Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:So you consider me a bad sportsman ? for what reason Im just replying to all the F trial critisizm. No one has ever heard me complain about not winning or I can't compete because my dog finds more birds but was beat by more style etc & etc.I will tell you this I always want to win but I have lost a whole lot more then I have won & there are very few that can say their luck has gone the other way but there are a few.If I was a bad sportsman I would probably quit join a dog forum & complain about how unfair things are.
I want to ask if you hunt does your dog ALWAYS find birds & if not why,do you think all the birds disappeared that day? I hunt & find no birds some days but the birds are still there some where.
I'm being truthful not fabricating stories for your enjoyment.Some people just don't like hearing the truth.

No, no, no. I didnt mean you are a bad sport all. Sorry if thats how you took that, poorly worded on my part I guess. I just said I totally understand your competitiveness, my sportmanship comment, was just that, an observation, not intended for you, at all.

I also never said I find birds everytime I hunt, in fact, was in the grouse woods 2x this week and only heard one bird, one day. I sure dont think they disappeared, thats hunting. Not sure what made you think I feel that Im an expert bird finder?? My apologies, as I sure didnt mean to imply that either.

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:48 pm

Ithacaslayer wrote:
Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:I guess I'm a competive person I like it.I fished bass tournaments there are winners & loosers,I boxed,I played baseball & was my dream to play pro ball but hurt my arm as a sophmore in high school.
I played ball when we wore steel spikes & used wooden bats & WE KEPT SCORE & went to CHAMPIONSHIP GAMES! WHY TO WIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you are 'competitive', how can you stand witnessing a dog win that was bested and outfound by other dogs who didnt win?

It DOES Happen, and more frequently than youd like to admit.

(Im not talking about NSTRA either)

Really, it DOES, does it? It is unfortunate you have to run in such a circuit - you do know this from actually running on the circuit right? You aren't just repeating hearsay from goodness knows where.
Being competitive does not equate to a sore loser. In fact most sore losers are that way because they aren't competitive they are just whiners. They usually don't stick around at a game long and they are sure to tell anyone and everyone why the sport/organization is wrong.
In all the time I trialled I do not recall even one incident where I felt the judges got it wrong. Sometimes there would be griping at the end of the day but usually from someone who only watched one brace of dogs run - the one they were running in and declared afterward that they had been shafted. Those who rode every brace and watched all the dogs ALWAYS agreed in general with the placements.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:52 pm

Ithaca Heard it all before doesn't change a thing!! more boo hooin!!No one made you watch or read or however you got the info.Don't participate set at the club & have a few more!!

Then play that game if you like but stay out of something you don't like or know anything about. I believe if 2 dogs in the cover dog game have the same amount of finds the most stylish will probably be named WINNER!!

Post by **slistoe** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:54 pm

Ithacaslayer wrote:
This is AAMES 2010, Look at All of the Unproductives, Run Offs, Lost, and Rabbit Points, supposedly the best dogs in the country.
Very Interesting.

Very classic. The AMES CARD. You just super trumped the whole deal, didn't you.

Too bad that hearts were trump this round, and the next and the next and forever. You lose.

Push them to the limits and beyond till they start to fail. Those that don't, WIN. Your dogs wouldn't be in the game past the first 100 yards (neither would mine).

Post by **ezzy333** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:56 pm

baileydog2007 wrote:
Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Yeah & hunting in the Dakotas is like fishing in a swimming pool.We call it hunting NOT SHOOTING.
Go back to the CLUB & drink the rest of the day!!
So, when a person choses to hunt where the bird population is good, thats a bad thing??? WTH. One of the weirdest things Ive ever heard. So, should a guy plan a hunting trip to a place where game is sparce so they can claim they are a mightier hunter, since they were foolish enough to go hunting in a worse spot??? Strange.

He did not say that, you did. I do not think anyone can say something and then argue against it just to have an argument What he said makes sense and I as a hunter have seen it a thousand times. Use to take my kids out and would get to the field around ten after we finished chores and the fields were empty and the bars were full. And it didn't matter what kind of dog or even if you had one, they all had their limit but some complained because they had to walk a mile to do it. It was much like fishing in a swimming pool. But you could get some decent hunting once in a while if the field had been hunted hard and the dogs actually had to work to find what birds were still there.

To this day I hate taking dogs into a field with birds running all over as there is no better way to mess a young dog up than to have too much recent bird scent for them to try to decipher.

baileydog2007 · Post by **baileydog2007** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:57 pm

Ithacaslayer wrote:
Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Ithaca now tell me whos the bad sportsman & crying about being outfound as you say.We been through this it's not finds it's the whole performance.
You wouldn't be Birddogz in disguise would you?

No, Im not Birddogs or know him.

I just pointed out that you call yourself competitive, but the venue you run in has subjective judging...

Cover dog trials on wild birds, with most finds as winner, I find respectable.

I dont care about tail, run, style or anything else if I hunt.
I want a dog that hunts with me, for me, covers ground well and finds game. If its efficient, that is desireable.

I agree with your last 2 lines, but that doesnt/shouldnt diminish what Von or anyone else runs in or vice versa. Different strokes for different folks. I find "style" in my own dogs all the time. Is it what others would call style?? I donno, nor do I care. IF I was inclined to run in a competition where style matters, then Id care, only because I too, am competitive, and would want to win. So any competition with "subjective" judges isnt respectable or competitive??? I dont get youre post, at all.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:58 pm

ITHACA When are you going to get it? It's not about finds it's the WHOLE PERFORMANCE!! Go to NSTRA & tear it up!! MOST FINDS = WIN if the handler & dog complete their job!!

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:02 pm

That's even more funny Ithaca because if no birds are found in AKC placements are withheld.Your showing how much you know!!

baileydog2007 · Post by **baileydog2007** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:04 pm

ezzy333 wrote:
baileydog2007 wrote:
Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Yeah & hunting in the Dakotas is like fishing in a swimming pool.We call it hunting NOT SHOOTING.
Go back to the CLUB & drink the rest of the day!!
So, when a person choses to hunt where the bird population is good, thats a bad thing??? WTH. One of the weirdest things Ive ever heard. So, should a guy plan a hunting trip to a place where game is sparce so they can claim they are a mightier hunter, since they were foolish enough to go hunting in a worse spot??? Strange.
He did not say that, you did. I do not think anyone can say something and then argue against it just to have an argument What he said makes sense and I as a hunter have seen it a thousand times. Use to take my kids out and would get to the field around ten after we finished chores and the fields were empty and the bars were full. And it didn't matter what kind of dog or even if you had one, they all had their limit but some complained because they had to walk a mile to do it. It was much like fishing in a swimming pool. But you could get some decent hunting once in a while if the field had been hunted hard and the dogs actually had to work to find what birds were still there.

To this day I hate taking dogs into a field with birds running all over as there is no better way to mess a young dog up than to have too much recent bird scent for them to try to decipher.

Well, you hunt in a different place than I do. Where I hunt there are birds, but hardly "birds running all over". Make it sound like all you need is one eye and a dip net. Not the case, at least not where I hunt. If you were in SD, and hit the field at 10, and some had thier limits already, they all broke the law, cuz you cant hunt there until noon the first week and 10 after that. Im not trying argue. And trust me, I walk much more than a mile .. I dont even understand your attack on me honestly.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:11 pm

I threw more touchdown passes in the rec league than Montana did in the NFL