Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

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slistoe
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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by slistoe » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:25 pm

Ithacaslayer wrote:
Elkhunter wrote: Also Ames is not designed to find the best hunting dog, its designed to find the best AA dog in the country.


Thank You...
For what ... further pointing out that your hunting dog wouldn't make it past the first 100 yards of the event? That is an absolute fact. And the next fact is that when they push these dogs to the very limits of what is physically and mentally possible for a dog to do in terms of endurance, training and hunting some of them will come through and show that perhaps it is possible after all.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by slistoe » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:29 pm

birddog1968 wrote:Its not a registry , any dog thats run in a shoot to retrieve trial is listed with its stats and trial activity.
No, you have to win, not just beat your bracemate. My take on this whole thing is that he outbirded the 3x Champ but they both lost because at least 4 other dogs outbirded him.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by baileydog2007 » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:36 pm

Well, some posters sure back up the fact some "trialers" are are grade A "A" holes. Shows some, even if right, prefer to be a prick vs an ambassador of the sport. Pathetic. A total prick.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by slistoe » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:48 pm

Ithacaslayer wrote:What seems to be available regarding the study BOTh at AAMEs and at Tall TIMBERS is this..



About eight or ten years ago the biologists at the Ames plantation wanted to know why the number of finds by the best trial dogs in the country was so low when bobwhite densities were about as good as they could naturally be (1 bird per acre on average).
So they radio collared a number of wild bobwhite coveys and tracked their location on the trial grounds as trials were run. What they found was that the best trial dogs in the country found about 5% of the bobwhites that were on the course.
There were many heats where the gallery flushed more bobwhites than the dogs found.

This is compared to similar studies done by biologists on the Packsaddle WMA in OK and Tall Timbers plantation that found that hunting dogs found an average of 35% of the available birds.

The reaction of the trial establishment was to suppress the studies (they are no longer on the Ames website), and dump a few thousand bobwhite on the course before big trials are held to artificially jack up the find rate.'
You don't read so well do you. The two studies were not at all similar. What is your source for this information? It certainly isn't a credible one.

I don't have copies of these studies but when they were first done they were both available online and I have read completely through both the study papers. There was considerable discussion about them on the alloutdoors forum at that time (that was an awesome BB - Delmar Smith as guest celebrity...) and a self professed blowhard was trying to pass off the same ill-informed BS about conclusions comparing the results of the two. There was absolutely nothing similar about the methodology of the two studies. There was nothing similar about the definition of "available birds" in the two studies. There was nothing similar in the intent of the two studies (which governed the study design). In short, there is absolutely no valid comparisons or conclusions that can be made from these two studies against each other. Each and of themselves however I believe it is a great loss to the birddog community that the papers of either study are not available as there were some valuable insights that dispell many mistaken beliefs about birds and dogs.
Last edited by slistoe on Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by Elkhunter » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:51 pm

[/quote]I think you're talking about Rich Heaton?[/quote]

Yes!

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by birddog1968 » Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:37 am

slistoe wrote:
birddog1968 wrote:Its not a registry , any dog thats run in a shoot to retrieve trial is listed with its stats and trial activity.
No, you have to win, not just beat your bracemate. My take on this whole thing is that he outbirded the 3x Champ but they both lost because at least 4 other dogs outbirded him.

Yup that was my conclusion as well.....put a Ch title on a dog in a year(not 4 or 5) and place in many different regions , grounds and against many different ch and you got something.


For anyone interested a good read on Trials and their purpose "Field Trials , history , management and judging standards" by William F Brown is a great read.
The second kick from a mule is of very little educational value - from Wing and Shot.

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Re: Style v Efficiency, and or other arguments that divide

Post by tommyboy72 » Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:58 am

Ithacaslayer wrote:
Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:I will no longer aknowledge a man that is ASHAMED of living in this country.
Where exactly was this said?
Please use the quote function and quote me.

You inferred that I should leave the country and move overseas to Germany, and I retorted that I would gladly do so, except that our Dollar has lost 30% of its value in the last 10 years alone Vs the Euro and 95% since 1913.

That makes for a hard transition in living index, that my family will not support.
I said If you are willing to spot me the lost money due to the declining US dollar, I said I would gladly go.


I also said I wasnt fond of the IRS and Federal Reserve, do you take issue with that statement as well?
Or is that somehow 'un-American'too?
I went back and read the other posts but I guess I must have missed this. I have a finance degree and have studied the federal reserve and the American economy and banking system extensively through money and banking classes, investment classes, economic classes, management classes, and finance and accounting classes and even I find fault with the Fed. I don't think it makes you un-American, suspicious of the government and unwilling to take the government at their word perhaps but not un-American. It is all irrelevant anyway because in another 10 years we will all be speaking Spanish and working for $2 an hour anyway. I did some calculations for anyone intersted. If you purchased an item in 1913 for $1 that same item would cost you $22.87 today, an inflation rate of 2187%. I am not sure if this is what you were getting at or not. That same item purchased for $1 10 years ago is $1.28 now an inflation rate of 28%. The Euro did not come into existence until 1999 so I don't think you were comparing the value of the Dollar to the Euro in 1913 at 95% were you? The average since 1999 is 1 Euro to 1.39 U.S. dollars but the Euro started out at 1 Euro to 1.08 American dollars so the change is not as drastic as it might seem. About 31% in a 12 year period which I believe you mentioned.

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:YOUR UN AMERICAN swim across I don't care not needed here.Im not an OKIE but those are fightin words & I've done it before & would do it again !!
Where did that come from? I am an OKIE and am not sure what you are getting at here?

Perhaps some of the guys that do not care much for the traditional trials should try the tournament hunting scene. That might suit some better. Dogs find the birds, point the birds, handler shoots the birds and dog retrieves birds all in a timed and braced event. You do it faster than your bracemate and you advance on until you are in the finals and if you do it faster there you win the whole tournament and prize money.

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