If you were a betting man/woman

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:49 pm

If you were a betting type, what would you do with your money in this situation? Take the most winning bird dog in the country in AA. (for that year) Put him in a competition with meat dogs in SD, Oklahoma, Idaho, etc. throughout the country on Phez, quail, chukar, Ruffs, etc. The competition is simple, his owner/handler against the owner of the other dog's owner. First to limit wins. Not one day, multiple days, and take the average. You can even put a time limit on it. This is done on FOOT, does anyone think that the AA dog would win? My point is that FTs don't fit the average person's hunting style. The game that is a trial no longer simulates the way most hunt, yet people still validate a winner as a great prospect for the hunting public. How is that possible in a logical mind?

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:56 pm

Because if you didn't have AA dogs to even out the range of the average dogs you would sooner or later end up with mostly bootlickers.
Come on Birddogz your supposed to be an educated man,a school teacher after all.
Even I can figure that out & I only have a 10th grade education.
Your smarter then me.

Garrison · Post by **Garrison** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:56 pm

I'll play, I bet $100 most of the "meat dogs" have a lot of Field Trial Dog in their Pedigree. Maybe it is not the dog but rather the training for your desired purpose.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:59 pm

You mentioned AA and foot hunting on AA grounds using foot hunting standards. Learn some definitions first, then come back with a real question.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:02 pm

Birddogz every time you open your mouth your leg goes deeper cause your way past your foot.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:06 pm

Would you be a good chap and post your brittany pedigrees?

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:17 pm

My point is I get PPs, DDs, GSPs that run NAVHDA, French Britts, DLs, etc. that come from a more hunt test/Euoropean test system, which one puts more game in the bag for the average hunter in the U.S.? I believe it is the test/Euoro dogs if you are honest. Most people don't hunt off of horseback with dogs that range to that extent. Most people who hunt in the U.S. do NOT require the level of independence that AA dogs exhibit, yet many will entertain the idea that they are great hunting stock for breeding. I have owned both, and I will say that my FT bred dogs were very, very good, but they did not mold easily to the way the average person hunts. I had to reel them in, and it took a ton of effort. Why not start with a dog that is genetically disposed to please its owner? The game should not be bigger than the original purpose. It isn't logical.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:18 pm

BIRDDOGZ DON'T YOU LOG OFF ON ME... POST THAT PEDIGREE...POST IT

I am your only friend, I am trying to help, it's your only chance...post it man post it....

Garrison · Post by **Garrison** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:19 pm

You should enter your dog in a field trial and just count finds, see if your theory holds water, who cares if he doesn't place just count finds compared to the other dogs. It would probably put your mind at rest.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:20 pm

Post the pedigree, simple request.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:21 pm

He has no chance with me I would say what I think of him but would get deleted.I will say this GREAT MEN don't have to keep telling people how great they are.They very seldom even talk of them selves.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:22 pm

Last I knew you had two britts and a dd pup...but the britt was getting old ...did you lose one of the britts?

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:31 pm

Yes, I had to put him down. Cancer. Lots of tears.

My 14 year old Britt still is going. She has pointed 8 roosters this year that I have killed. I have to run a GPS collar on her with an E-collar as well. She can't see or hear well, so I shock her with a little stim to get her to come back, and I can always find her when she gets confused. She has a heart the size of Alaska.

Wildweeds · Post by **Wildweeds** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:42 pm

As was posted on another board a few years ago " I saw a fellows truck I know,he was hunting with his multiple time AF champion from foot,he was parked right next to another pickup with a NSTRA sticker and a empty Quad trailer attached".

I showed my FC to a guy one time,on birds when we were done he politely told me " That dog would never win a field trial,he doesn't run big enough" to which I grinned and said........................." You just watched the 2005 #1 setter gundog in HB field trials,not to mention he was #3 all breed.I'm not sticking up for trial dogs nor am I discounting a meat dog,good ones are good ones.Fact is most trial dogs I've rode and watched have never had a wild bird killed for them.............................biggest reason................female owners,more than middle aged...............just don't hunt,more into the romantic glamor of red,white and blue ribbions.My dogs are "huntin" dogs first and if they can win at competitive dog games so be it,if they can't hunt.................they don't hang around long.

George Tracy once stated in an interview and it was something to the effect of " They learn about bootsoles first.................and horseshoes second"

Post by **ezzy333** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:44 pm

Believe you said your dogs were 3 to 5 years old in another thread. But whatever , just post the pedigrees.

Ezzy

Garrison · Post by **Garrison** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:54 pm

Instead of sending me money order or check, I will donate the winnings to entry fees and travel to the next event in your area.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:56 pm

I am truly sorry about your dog. It sounds like it was a good run.

I wonder if you enjoy the chaos and I expect you do...seems like a waste of energy to me.

Many trainers are better off with a dog that is bred for versatility I believe they adapt to the needs of the person you call the (average hunter). It does not mean that any other type of dog is incapable, I simply suggest for some folks purpose and many folks commitment to the process and their skill set they will find training a v dog easier...

Troy08er · Post by **Troy08er** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:09 pm

A dog that wants to find birds will adapt to the terrain. This could be done from training, or dogs own experience ETC.
For me the FT line is the way to go and I'm a foot hunter. If the dog is broke why would you care about his range you can always reel them back.

Example: If I plant a bird 500 yards out by the fence line every day were do think the dog is going to run.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:18 pm

Yes it can Troy, no doubt...but there a lot of impatient folks out there. The process of training a dog...even learning to bend one is foreign to many of them...in most cases a pp or a dd hang pretty tight and i suggest that many people are perfectly happy as long as their pointing dog isn't busting birds out of range.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:25 pm

That being said Troy wher you and I live and north through the great basin ground coverage, heat tolerance and stamina are king...I am sure you will agree we see far more gsp's than anything else...(listen I know you can hear them barking) then probably ep's and britts...it is certainly that way for a reason.

Vision · Post by **Vision** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:27 pm

Birddogz wrote: How is that possible in a logical mind?

There is no logic in your post because you won't even allow yourself to think that it is possible for an AA dog to foot hunt. There are AA dogs that do foot hunt, but you won't believe it.

RayGubernat · Post by **RayGubernat** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:28 pm

Birddogz -

You like the idea of a versatile dog. That works for you. Hooray for you.

I don't do ducks and geese or doves. A versatile dog is of absolutely no interest or use to me. I don't need(or want) a dog that retrieves waterfowl or tracks fur. Why don't you get the fact that your choice might be best for you but might just suck bananas for someone else?

There are hundreds and hundreds of All Age and Shooting Dog bred dogs on the hunting strings of professional guides in many of the upland bird hunting destinations in the deep south and southwest. We know what you call a dog whose momma and poppa are from field trial stock. Most folks however, call them their good hunting dog because that is what most of them become. Hunting dogs or as you said...meat dogs. When you check their pedigrees,, in many, many cases, you find winning field trial dogs close up... but their mission in life is to be someone's meat dog. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that and a whole lot right with it.

I just gave my son a dog. He has multiple field trial placements and had the potential to be a winning amateur field trial competitor at a high level. He could have been quite possibly the best dog I have ever had. He could run with anything out there...and on occasion...he did. Everything from AKC Gun Dog, AKC All Age, AF horseback Shooting dog and the occasional AF Horseback All Age. He has placements in each of those venues except AF All Age.

However, my son does not have the time to field trial at this point in his life. He does however have time to get out and hunt a few weekends during the season and he thoroughly enjoys it. Soooo... at age five, Blue got promoted from field trial dog to family pet, watchdog and occasional hunter. He went, if you will, from field trial dog to meat dog. I am pleased to tell you that last Saturday I got a call from my son telling me that he took Blue out for the first time and he got his limit of pheasants. ON FOOT! He actually pointed both of them too...imagine that! My son was happy with the dog, the dog is happy with his new life and that is all that counts.

BTW, the last three dogs I purchased, as pups, were from folks who guided hunts and also bred dogs. One was from Alabama, one from Texas and one from NJ. In your words...they were breeding and raising hunting dogs...meat dogs... used for guiding. By your definition... I bought meat dogs. By my reckoning i was buying a bird dog. They each have pedigrees that are pretty strong with field trial winners, but they were as I said...meat dogs. Funny thing is...each one turned into reasonably successful field trial competitors...not worldbeaters by any mean, but pretty fair, reasonably competitive amateur dogs.

You appear to be stuck on labels and perceptions that are flawed. Do you not see just how fallacious some of your arguments are?

RayG

Troy08er · Post by **Troy08er** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:40 pm

Chukar12 wrote:That being said Troy wher you and I live and north through the great basin ground coverage, heat tolerance and stamina are king...I am sure you will agree we see far more gsp's than anything else...(listen I know you can hear them barking) then probably ep's and britts...it is certainly that way for a reason.

Yep,GSP rule around here. I'll be going to the dark side in a few months(EP).I have a friend that will be doing a nice EP breeding within a few months.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:46 pm

It's a betting thread...I bet Troys new ep works out fine as a foot hunting dog for him...never met the man I dont think....but I bet it works. Birddogz...birddogz...I know your still up cleaning gooses...take the bet...take it

lvrgsp · Post by **lvrgsp** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:52 pm

D....

Troy08er · Post by **Troy08er** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:53 pm

Chukar12 wrote:It's a betting thread...I bet Troys new ep works out fine as a foot hunting dog for him...never met the man I dont think....but I bet it works. Birddogz...birddogz...I know your still up cleaning gooses...take the bet...take it

LOL She'll be from FT lines.

The westcoast FT guys have been doing really good with http://www.ranchonekennels.com/ dogs. She'll be line bred from this kennel.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:41 am

Some of what Birddogz is saying:

Most people don't hunt off of horseback

Most people who hunt in the U.S. do NOT require the level of independence that AA dogs exhibit

they did not mold easily to the way the average person hunts

I had to reel them in, and it took a ton of effort.

Why not start with a dog that is genetically disposed to please its owner

Are these statements false?

vdogs can be a 'wild child'. As stated above, they are moldable,take less effort to reign in and are genetically disposed to please
(as a whole,anyway)

Doodle · Post by **Doodle** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:24 am

My ca$h is on the dog with a great nose, sense enough to use it, desire enough to take him where the birds are, cooperation enough to let me get there to flush it, and luck enough to be with me on the days that my shooting is dead on. Oh and if this is "timed or based on game in bag" he should efficiently retrieve it to hand because as I age I move slower than he does.

Joe Amatulli · Post by **Joe Amatulli** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:58 am

Birddogz wrote:If you were a betting type, what would you do with your money in this situation? Take the most winning bird dog in the country in AA. (for that year) Put him in a competition with meat dogs in SD, Oklahoma, Idaho, etc. throughout the country on Phez, quail, chukar, Ruffs, etc. The competition is simple, his owner/handler against the owner of the other dog's owner. First to limit wins. Not one day, multiple days, and take the average. You can even put a time limit on it. This is done on FOOT, does anyone think that the AA dog would win? My point is that FTs don't fit the average person's hunting style. The game that is a trial no longer simulates the way most hunt, yet people still validate a winner as a great prospect for the hunting public. How is that possible in a logical mind?

Well this sounds like this is right up my alley! My name is Joe Amatulli and there are a number of people on this forum that, either know me, or knows of me. WHO THE HECK IS BIRDDOGZ?

I have $10,000.00 that says my Millie dog (FC, AFC, and multiple AF CH) will limit out way before yours will, but I get to choose the ground and it will NOT be somewhere that a 100 birds get up if you slam the truck door or somewhere that you don’t really need a dog to shoot your limit. It will be, maybe the piney woods of Georgia or Mississippi, or the wide expanse of Texas or Kansas or maybe mile post 9 in Idaho, but the bottom line is you are going to need a dog that goes looking for birds and knows how to find them! Also if you want to walk fine, but either on foot or 4 wheeler or horse back is fine.

tn red · Post by **tn red** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:40 am

Sounds like Joe IS a bettin man

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:56 am

I believe Joe just called your hand Birddogz!!

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:03 pm

I vote that its mile post 9 and I will drive up and buy the participants dinner we will invite pretty girls have scotch and cigars ..I am caught up in the excitement . Doc will take pictures Gordon guy will judge ..we are the world we are the children

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:12 pm

I would put money on it any day after reading his posts. It would be sad taking money from a guy like that but if someone has to do it it might as well be me.

I have a dog that runs in all age and knows when to shorten up....

Dirtysteve · Post by **Dirtysteve** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:32 pm

I will even make a donation for birddogz gas to Idaho just so I can watch!

Birddogz · Post by **Birddogz** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:34 pm

Joe Amatulli wrote:
Birddogz wrote:If you were a betting type, what would you do with your money in this situation? Take the most winning bird dog in the country in AA. (for that year) Put him in a competition with meat dogs in SD, Oklahoma, Idaho, etc. throughout the country on Phez, quail, chukar, Ruffs, etc. The competition is simple, his owner/handler against the owner of the other dog's owner. First to limit wins. Not one day, multiple days, and take the average. You can even put a time limit on it. This is done on FOOT, does anyone think that the AA dog would win? My point is that FTs don't fit the average person's hunting style. The game that is a trial no longer simulates the way most hunt, yet people still validate a winner as a great prospect for the hunting public. How is that possible in a logical mind?
Well this sounds like this is right up my alley! My name is Joe Amatulli and there are a number of people on this forum that, either know me, or knows of me. WHO THE HECK IS BIRDDOGZ?

I have $10,000.00 that says my Millie dog (FC, AFC, and multiple AF CH) will limit out way before yours will, but I get to choose the ground and it will NOT be somewhere that a 100 birds get up if you slam the truck door or somewhere that you don’t really need a dog to shoot your limit. It will be, maybe the piney woods of Georgia or Mississippi, or the wide expanse of Texas or Kansas or maybe mile post 9 in Idaho, but the bottom line is you are going to need a dog that goes looking for birds and knows how to find them! Also if you want to walk fine, but either on foot or 4 wheeler or horse back is fine.

Joe, what in the heck are you talking about. Bring your dog out to ND in late December. We will see how she does. HAHAHAHAHA! Why would I go hunting somewhere that isn't as good as I have it 1 mile from town? You don't get to choose where we go. 4 Wheeler? Horseback? What are you disabled? Lets get out and really hunt. Exercise won't hurt you pal.

You are actually really proving my point, this is actually awesome, follow along if you will............................You obviously field trial, and how do you want to hunt? Just like I would have imagined. On HB in a vast expanse of land. The POLAR opposite of the way 99% of folks hunt. Why would I want a dog that I need a horse to keep up with? Bring her to ND, and we'll see how she handles deep snow, cold temps, and birds that are psycho.

The point is you want to hunt like a trial. Almost no one hunts like that. Thank you for making my point for me.

proudag08 · Post by **proudag08** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:40 pm

If this goes down it better be in TEXAS... the weather is nicer here anyway...

$10K... Holy geeze!!!

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:41 pm

Troy08er wrote:
Chukar12 wrote:It's a betting thread...I bet Troys new ep works out fine as a foot hunting dog for him...never met the man I dont think....but I bet it works. Birddogz...birddogz...I know your still up cleaning gooses...take the bet...take it
LOL She'll be from FT lines.

The westcoast FT guys have been doing really good with http://www.ranchonekennels.com/ dogs. She'll be line bred from this kennel.

Nice choice. They have some super nice Fiddler bred dogs. My personal favorite among all the Pointer bloodlines.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:43 pm

Is Carson, North Dakota different than Garrison, North Dakota? Hickox has a school and trains big running pointers and setters there...he doesn't have dogs circling behind and looping back and is not a proponent of controlling range, but more inclined to dissect and discuss ground application...of course he is a dog guy...won't even let guys bail out and ground sluice birds...the pansy

tn red · Post by **tn red** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:46 pm

Go back & read the post dogz lol it said any way any where lol come on no crawlfishing

Wenaha · Post by **Wenaha** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:47 pm

Birddogz wrote:...You obviously field trial, and how do you want to hunt? Just like I would have imagined. On HB in a vast expanse of land. The POLAR opposite of the way 99% of folks hunt. Why would I want a dog that I need a horse to keep up with? Bring her to ND, and we'll see how she handles deep snow, cold temps, and birds that are psycho. The point is you want to hunt like a trial. Almost no one hunts like that. Thank you for making my point for me.

YOU are the one asking for the contest. Further, I don't think he is offering you his dog, he is offering to meet you in a contest. You appear foolish for posting solely to provoke people who are more knowledgeable than you. Give it a break.

Wenaha · Post by **Wenaha** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:50 pm

tommyboy72 wrote:
Troy08er wrote:
Chukar12 wrote:It's a betting thread...I bet Troys new ep works out fine as a foot hunting dog for him...never met the man I dont think....but I bet it works. Birddogz...birddogz...I know your still up cleaning gooses...take the bet...take it
LOL She'll be from FT lines.

The westcoast FT guys have been doing really good with http://www.ranchonekennels.com/ dogs. She'll be line bred from this kennel.
Nice choice. They have some super nice Fiddler bred dogs. My personal favorite among all the Pointer bloodlines.

I know most of these dogs and their owners. Craig Thompson does a good job with his breeding.

Post by **Sharon** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:53 pm

Birddogz wrote:Yes, I had to put him down. Cancer. Lots of tears. My 14 year old Britt still is going. She has pointed 8 roosters this year that I have killed. I have to run a GPS collar on her with an E-collar as well. She can't see or hear well, so I shock her with a little stim to get her to come back, and I can always find her when she gets confused. She has a heart the size of Alaska.

Consider using the bzz button or the locate button to get her back. I have a 13 year old JRT who still loves to hunt. Needs to be located off and on.

tommyboy72 · Post by **tommyboy72** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:58 pm

Wenaha wrote:I know most of these dogs and their owners. Craig Thompson does a good job with his breeding.

I have been browsing that website for several months now but don't care much for Elhew lines(just my personal choice) and it seems he likes to cross up with Elhew dogs. At one time I wanted a straight Fiddler bred dog till I chatted with some experienced guys who set me straight about straight Fiddler dogs and now I am leaning more toward Miller/Fiddler or Fiddler/Additions Go Boy for my next pup. He does have some really well bred dogs though.

Garrison · Post by **Garrison** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:58 pm

Going to be hard to win anything with a 14 year old dog that is blind.

Also didn't realize that 99% of hunters hunt in the Dakotas.

markj · Post by **markj** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:06 pm

Take the most winning bird dog in the country in AA. (for that year) Put him in a competition with meat dogs in SD, Oklahoma, Idaho, etc. throughout the country on Phez, quail, chukar, Ruffs, etc. The competition is simple, his owner/handler against the owner of the other dog's owner. First to limit wins. Not one day, multiple days, and take the average. You can even put a time limit on it. This is done on FOOT, does anyone think that the AA dog would win?

Man that would cost a few bucks in gas alone. You must be well off.

I have seen some "meat dogs" that were pure bird finding machines that would not stop. Cant say if Iwould put up a bet less it was one of mine, but you go ahead and travel around competing in this. Let me know how you do and the total cost for this adventure.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:13 pm

The POLAR opposite of the way 99% of folks hunt. Why would I want a dog that I need a horse to keep up with?

We can help clear up how some of this works if you would just get on this pedigree homework assignment...you are getting way behind, you have a previous trial to deal with, a cooking section for the forum if I recall, and now this new trial...you would not tolerate this slacking from your students...

What if for the sake of argument you get the benefit of the doubt that 99% of the people hunt as you suggest. (if we can please all acknowledge that the percentage is at best inflated) Isn't this the same argument that the Occupy Wall Street crowd uses to try and make their point for financial reform? In a sense they present themselves in a manner that says, change the sytem and measurements (in this case financial, legal and social) so that it fits what suits me with no effort on my part. The net effect would be anarchy and a compete collapse of our republic in a much more accelerated fashion than the slow burn we have been engaged in post WW2. For proof see the conditions and social ills of their encampments. Because these folks cannot define accountability for the changes they would employ or articulate a vision, they are relegated to pointing and eventually are nothing more than the butt of late night tv jokes...

If everyone bred dogs to suit the 99% as you describe them we would have the equivalent of a sea of pointing labs (with no offense intended, I hunt with one regularly...I just don't allow photographic evidence) The point was, and is, that regardless of venue, competition or test, there must be recognizable and broad recognition of excellence as judged by a third party and there must be extremes, if there isn't everything flows to the middle and the bar drops...you cannot proclaim the ultimate test for a hunting dog to be wild pheasants in Garrison, North Dakota between Christmas and New Years as the ultimate test of a hunting dog and expect to be comprehensive enough to be taken seriously.

Ron R · Post by **Ron R** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:17 pm

Birddogz wrote:Put him in a competition with meat dogs in SD, Oklahoma, Idaho, etc.

Joe Amatulli wrote:I have $10,000.00 that says my Millie dog (FC, AFC, and multiple AF CH) will limit out way before yours will,

Joe Amatulli wrote:or maybe mile post 9 in Idaho,

Birddogz wrote:Bring your dog out to ND in late December. We will see how she does. HAHAHAHAHA! Why would I go hunting somewhere that isn't as good as I have it 1 mile from town? You don't get to choose where we go.

Grange · Post by **Grange** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:19 pm

Birddogz wrote: Bring your dog out to ND in late December.

If ND is anything like SD just Get a lab and bust through cattails and you'll find pheasant. heck post a few people at the other end of the cattails and walk to them. Dogs aren't even necessary other than to retrieve. The one time I hunted private land it was mid December and all we did was hunt windrows. The owners told us to leave the dogs in the vehicle as they weren't necessary. We hunted like it was like a deer drive. The pheasent were grouped up like chicken in a coop and we just pushed them to the end. We saw a ton of birds, but that is not the kind of hunting I enjoy.

proudag08 · Post by **proudag08** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:22 pm

Chukar12 wrote:
Isn't this the same argument that the Occupy Wall Street crowd uses to try and make their point for financial reform? In a sense they present themselves in a manner that says, change the sytem and measurements (in this case financial, legal and social) so that it fits what suits me with no effort on my part. The net effect would be anarchy and a compete collapse of our republic in a much more accelerated fashion than the slow burn we have been engaged in post WW2. For proof see the conditions and social ills of their encampments. Because these folks cannot define accountability for the changes they would employ or articulate a vision, they are relegated to pointing and eventually are nothing more than the butt of late night tv jokes...

I was on this train a long time ago... (See Efficincy v style post)

WE ARE THE 99%!!! OCCUPY GDF!!! Ha ha ha ha

OWS = :roll:

rschmeider · Post by **rschmeider** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:26 pm

Dirtysteve wrote:I will even make a donation for birddogz gas to Idaho just so I can watch!

+1 start a pay pal account, i'll donate....is this a DD meat dog vs. FC,AF-CH GSP????