Got me thinking

[Elkhunter]

So in all the threads with Birddogz lately it has me thinking about what kind of country people hunt. Do 99% of all hunters hunt ditch banks/thick cover for pheasants? And thats it? Or just grouse/woodcock in thick piney country where a big running dog is not wanted or needed?? I have lived in UT my whole life, and have hunted in numerous western states where the large majority of hunting is done on wide open expanses. States like UT, MT, WY, ID,NM, NV and AZ have good populations of chukars/huns/sharpies/quail etc that live mainly in wide open expanses. Does everyone mainly just hunt pheasants and thats it?

[ElhewPointer]

Good point Elk. I hunt for phez in places that looks like there would be a trial there. And guess what, there are birds on edges just like a trial. Crazy huh? For quail we hunt a lot of creek edges and fence lines. Hmmmmm, thats weird..... now that I think of it, those look somewhat similar to place I trial. I don't think a windsheild wiper/bootlicker would fair to well where I HUNT.

[adogslife]

Windshieldwiper,bootlicker????

whose dogs are you referring to?

A methodical,focused search of the terrain, seeking objectives and likely cover is what a good foot hunter's dog does.
Now, if you're hunting sparse terrain, the dog would mainly seek objectives.

[ACooper]

I would guess that most "hunters" don't know that GDF exists and they take their ol dog out to hunt somewhere and shoot birds that the dogs find pointed or not, many of these birds are probably throw down birds at a perserve, I would also guess that most of them get a little concerned when their dog goes out of sight for long... Thats what I would guess MOST hunters are like. The majority here is the minority in the real world.

[ezzy333]

I would guess that most "hunters" don't know that GDF exists and they take their ol dog out to hunt somewhere and shoot birds that the dogs find pointed or not, many of these birds are probably throw down birds at a preserve, I would also guess that most of them get a little concerned when their dog goes out of sight for long... That's what I would guess MOST hunters are like. The majority here is the minority in the real world.

I think you are right. But that is not a lot different than it has always been. My first Britts came from Kansas from probably the leading kennel in the country at that time. All bu two of his 17 females were Bench Champions as were both of his males. None were out of Field Champions and he never bred to one except once plus he had a pup out of a female he had sold that was bred to the NFC. He started with one of the original 3 pups that came from France and that dog is in the Brittany Hall of Fame. He shipped dogs all over the world. There were some Field Champion dogs that are now in the HOF back in the pedigrees of most of the dogs. But when you were selling pups to hunters having field trial blood was much more a deterrent than something any one wanted in their hunting dogs. I found the same thing to be true as the number one thing most hunters asked for was a pup that would hunt close. And this was before we had hunting clubs with pen raised birds. But when your main hunting areas were fence rows and 20-40acres fields you had little use for a dog that would hunt 2 to 400 yards in front of you.

And I think it still basically the same today. The range and style and endless training is a product of the field trials and are not very popular yet with the walking weekend warrior that has trouble just finding someplace to hunt. I really think that is what creates the endless argument about how big a dog runs and what it takes to produce good hunting dogs. People who have never needed a "big running dog" have trouble agreeing with those who argue their FC dogs are better especially when the trialers tell them there big running dogs shorten up when hunting if you are walking. If that is true then how come they are not only better when ranging wide but are still better when they hunt just like the common dog? Even I find it hard to see how they can have it both ways. If a dog is better because he runs big then when he shortens up he is just like every other closer hunter. I think we all need to admit we all look for a dog that will fill the needs for what we want to do with the dog and that one that does that is good but no better than the dogs that fill the other persons need, no matter what they are. Just thank God we have those choices and can find a dog that fits.

[kbshorthairs]

The thing that kills me that people never understand........whether it is politics, religion, or bird dogs......you are never going to sway someone that has a different opinion. People love to try......but it isn't going to happen. :roll:

[ACooper]

The thing that kills me that people never understand........whether it is politics, religion, or bird dogs......you are never going to sway someone that has a different opinion. People love to try......but it isn't going to happen. :roll:

I agree 100%, everyone here likes working dogs, the ideal dog for me may or may not be the ideal dog for anyone else here. But I can appreciate a nice dog if it hunts at 1000 yds or 100 yds.

We have a little female that many people would hate she hunts CLOSE, but for many of the areas we hunt she is perfect for corn/milo stubble, fence lines and hedge rows she points very staunch, honors and is a good dead bird dog. When hunting CRP or bigger country she isnt so useful but she by no means a detriment. She is still there to find dead birds etc. If she were the only dog we hunted we would do A LOT more walking in some places, but I can appreciate her usefulness for many of the places that we hunt, IMO she is just another tool in the tool box.

[RayGubernat]

I would guess that most "hunters" don't know that GDF exists and they take their ol dog out to hunt somewhere and shoot birds that the dogs find pointed or not, many of these birds are probably throw down birds at a perserve, I would also guess that most of them get a little concerned when their dog goes out of sight for long... Thats what I would guess MOST hunters are like. The majority here is the minority in the real world.

I would agree with you about most hunters of upland birds. In fact I will go further and say with some degree of certainty that most folks who hunt upland birds with a dog use a Lab, and not the pointing kind. I would suspect that flushing type upland hunting dogs far outnumber the pointing breeds as a whole and of the pointing breeds used in the field a good percentage of them don't point too awful much either. Of course, a large portion fo those who pursue upland game...do so without a dog.

Most folks don't just hunt upland game, they hunt waterfowl and upland game and use the same dog for both. Most often that is a Lab since pointing breeds (with a couple of noable exceptions) are not well known for their ability to make cold water retrieves.

Most hunters proabably do panic a bit when their dog goes out of sight becausen 1) it is also the family pet and coming home without the dog is NOT an option. 2) A dog that is out of sight is also out of gun range and if a bird pops up that is an opportunity that is lost. 3) A fair number of hunters are not confident enough in their dog's ability or willingess to hold a point long enough for them to get into position for shot.

All of the above is why using "breeding for the average hunter" as a justification for a certain type of hunting dog is fundamentally flawed. The average hunter either hunts dogless in the uplands...or uses a Lab.

I wholeheartedly agree that those of us who pursue upland birds with pointing breeds are most definitely in the minority.

I don't care. I hunt behind what I like.

RayG

[birddogger]

All of the above is why using "breeding for the average hunter" as a justification for a certain type of hunting dog is fundamentally flawed. The average hunter either hunts dogless in the uplands...or uses a Lab.

I wholeheartedly agree that those of us who pursue upland birds with pointing breeds are most definitely in the minority.

Just from my many years of upland hunting and where I come from, I have to strongly disagree with this statement. I can't say what it is like in every part of the country....Just speaking from my 40 plus years of upland hunting. Admittedly, my experience has, for the most part been limited to the mid west.

Charlie

[ultracarry]

Windshieldwiper,bootlicker????

whose dogs are you referring to?

A methodical,focused search of the terrain, seeking objectives and likely cover is what a good foot hunter's dog does.
Now, if you're hunting sparse terrain, the dog would mainly seek objectives.

Just letting you know and I hope you can tell that a birds scent goes further than 5 feet away and by running lime a windshield wiper or boot polished the dog waste energy and slows down, now you think you have a good "foot hunting" dog, when in fact you have a stupid dog with no nose. A dog should be able to run and stop on a dime, sliding with all four feet on the ground. If he/she believes they could be in terrain they will cover it before they go past.

I hunt behind house and in city limits and my dog runs with the peddle down in high or low cover. If I doubt her she will prove me wrong every time. If people gave their dogs freedom and weren't so controlling when it comes to terrain it might fix some of those prey drive/intensity issues (flat tail, breaking down on flush etc...) . I can grantee a lot of those boot polished had their spirit broke by some insecure trainer.

[nikegundog]

So in all the threads with Birddogz lately it has me thinking about what kind of country people hunt. Do 99% of all hunters hunt ditch banks/thick cover for pheasants? And thats it? Or just grouse/woodcock in thick piney country where a big running dog is not wanted or needed?? I have lived in UT my whole life, and have hunted in numerous western states where the large majority of hunting is done on wide open expanses. States like UT, MT, WY, ID,NM, NV and AZ have good populations of chukars/huns/sharpies/quail etc that live mainly in wide open expanses. Does everyone mainly just hunt pheasants and thats it?

I hunt Southern MN, and Eastern SD and 95% of the areas I hunt are medium to thick cover, ditch banks, shelter belts, cat tail sloughs, along with some standing corn, for pheasant and huns. There are vast areas of light cover in SD to hunt, however what I chase is more likely to be found in heavy cover. I have never seen a person hunting off horse back, but that sounds like a fun experience.

[cutty72]

Most all my hunting is CRP and cat tail sloughs. Push a little in cornfields, but generally when they are next to CRP or have many low spots in or next to them.

The post by Ray was about spot on for my style, though my hunting buddies run pointers, so I get the best of both worlds.

[DonF]

[Elkhunter]

Well, the majority of population in the USA IS EAST of the Mississipi.

Wish we had the Western Country but we dont. And we dont need 1/2 range dogs either to do well and limit.


Legs dont find birds, nose And brains finds birds.

I dont want a dog to outrun its nose.

I understand you dont have the type of terrain that we have out here, I just dont understand the mentality I read on here half the time. Not saying you are saying anything that I disagree with, out here legs/nose/brains find birds. When you can see for miles in front of you and your dog is 50 yards away it can get daunting! My old GSP only ranges about 100 yards and finds birds all the time, sometimes he is the only dog that finds birds! I guess I just read all these posts and everyone jumps on the "big running dogs dont find birds/are not effective" wagon so I just wanted to see what type of country people hunt. Different strokes for different folks!

[ezzy333]

Windshieldwiper,bootlicker????

whose dogs are you referring to?

A methodical,focused search of the terrain, seeking objectives and likely cover is what a good foot hunter's dog does.
Now, if you're hunting sparse terrain, the dog would mainly seek objectives.

Just letting you know and I hope you can tell that a birds scent goes further than 5 feet away and by running lime a windshield wiper or boot polished the dog waste energy and slows down, now you think you have a good "foot hunting" dog, when in fact you have a stupid dog with no nose. A dog should be able to run and stop on a dime, sliding with all four feet on the ground. If he/she believes they could be in terrain they will cover it before they go past.

I hunt behind house and in city limits and my dog runs with the peddle down in high or low cover. If I doubt her she will prove me wrong every time. If people gave their dogs freedom and weren't so controlling when it comes to terrain it might fix some of those prey drive/intensity issues (flat tail, breaking down on flush etc...) . I can grantee a lot of those boot polished had their spirit broke by some insecure trainer.

One thing I have noticed is the owners of the boot lickers are quite happy with their dogs and it is the people who trial find them to be a problem. And if the dog runs big the people who have them are quite happy with them but it is the people with the bootlickers that find them a problem. Does it say anything to any of you that you find fault with the other guys dogs but are happy with yours? It happens both ways and it makes absolutely no sense to always be critizing each others dogs when they are hunting exactly like their owners want them to hunt in the cover they hunt. Sounds to me like we have a lot of good dogs and a lot of owners love to find fault with anything that isn't theirs.

Ezzy

[adogslife]

One thing I have noticed is the owners of the boot lickers are quite happy with their dogs and it is the people who trial find them to be a problem. And if the dog runs big the people who have them are quite happy with them but it is the people with the bootlickers that find them a problem. Does it say anything to any of you that you find fault with the other guys dogs but are happy with yours? It happens both ways and it makes absolutely no sense to always be critizing each others dogs when they are hunting exactly like their owners want them to hunt in the cover they hunt. Sounds to me like we have a lot of good dogs and a lot of owners love to find fault with anything that isn't theirs.

Ezzy

When you say "boot licker" it sounds negative.

[Max2]

I have learned so much on this site I love it !
Dog's with tails , dog's with out tails, wooly-mamouths, heal shiners,dog's that run to the next county, cheese heads & the list goes on. Honestly I don't think anybody means anything by using this type of termanolgy . It's all in good fun

[Ruffshooter]

You know what I find, this thread turned stupid in just one post. :roll:

I would say that most people that have bird dogs, have the dog that fits them and their preferences.
I have variations of what you would call boot lickers and mid range dogs. My so called boot lickers are generally only about 50 to 75 yard dogs in grouse woods but have one that is even closer from 30 to 70 yards. My mid range dogs are more around 40 to 150 yards in the grouse woods. (There are so many places to look for birds the dog needs to cover more edges, Islands, thickets etc.) You put those two different range dogs together and it works extremely well .

The funny thing is when I have gone to KS and GA, they were smart enough to open up and head for the edges. Gee, Imagine that. Ironically, when we grouse hunters, hunt, even though we are in the wood,s we are basically hunting edges. They are just not as defined and easy to spot as your wide open areas. A dog needs to have enough agility, to avoid getting skewered by all the cut limbs brush blow downs etc.

The other thing is, some hunt with flushing dogs even in the grouse woods, same in the pheasant edges fields etc. Those dogs are productive as well.

For the OP sorry for the rant. Here in the Maine it is mostly woods hunting, we have grouse all over the state but most are hunt near old farm lands or more so 5 t0 10 year cuts. It can be dangerous for a reckless dog.

[rkappes]

How about a dog that adjusts according to the cover?

[JKP]

So in all the threads with Birddogz lately it has me thinking about what kind of country people hunt. Do 99% of all hunters hunt ditch banks/thick cover for pheasants? And thats it? Or just grouse/woodcock in thick piney country where a big running dog is not wanted or needed?? I have lived in UT my whole life, and have hunted in numerous western states where the large majority of hunting is done on wide open expanses. States like UT, MT, WY, ID,NM, NV and AZ have good populations of chukars/huns/sharpies/quail etc that live mainly in wide open expanses. Does everyone mainly just hunt pheasants and thats it?

I hunt both...east and west...the woods, the bogs and the wide open grass. The question is not where folks hunt but how they like to hunt. I like to see my dog make game...lift its head, snort in scent...move and establish point. Shooting the bird is just what happens before the next thing I like....a dog that refuses to leave game on the ground and puts that game in my hand when its found. I wouldn't enjoy most of this with a dog 4-800 yds away. I wouldn't enjoy this if I'm looking for my dog. I don't enjoy beepers, whistles, hacking and screaming..and hunting by satellite somehow takes the hunt out of the word hunt for me. How long before we sit in the truck and kill the bird with laptop controlled "drone"

Some speak about those that like to see their dogs as scared owners...fearful of dogs that are out of sight...some are...most just enjoy seeing their dogs work.

You don't need an AA dog...or even a 400 yd dog to be a very successful hunter...in any cover. Even the chukar hunters I know will tell you that a 200 yd dog with desire to find game will do quite nicely. Give me any well bred dog with desire and I can condition it to be 200 yds ahead looking for game. Heck, my Euro bootlickers do that...you know the pig dogs with no style.

The comical part of these discussions is that if we were to hunt the rocket sleds and the 200 yd bootlickers....we probably wouldn't see a whole big difference in the game bag. The big running dog would line out and run past game and the shorter running dog would pick up a lot of that game while quartering (dreadful practice!!!).

As an aside...I'll bet most of the supposed 4-500 yd dogs folks talk about are hunting a lot closer than the owners think.

[birddogger]

I have learned so much on this site I love it !
Dog's with tails , dog's with out tails, wooly-mamouths, heal shiners,dog's that run to the next county, cheese heads & the list goes on. Honestly I don't think anybody means anything by using this type of termanolgy . It's all in good fun

Really? I have a little different take on it....I believe there is getting to be so much BS on here it gets a little ridiculous.

Charlie

[ElhewPointer]

Windshieldwiper,bootlicker????

whose dogs are you referring to?

A methodical,focused search of the terrain, seeking objectives and likely cover is what a good foot hunter's dog does.
Now, if you're hunting sparse terrain, the dog would mainly seek objectives.

Just letting you know and I hope you can tell that a birds scent goes further than 5 feet away and by running lime a windshield wiper or boot polished the dog waste energy and slows down, now you think you have a good "foot hunting" dog, when in fact you have a stupid dog with no nose. A dog should be able to run and stop on a dime, sliding with all four feet on the ground. If he/she believes they could be in terrain they will cover it before they go past.

I hunt behind house and in city limits and my dog runs with the peddle down in high or low cover. If I doubt her she will prove me wrong every time. If people gave their dogs freedom and weren't so controlling when it comes to terrain it might fix some of those prey drive/intensity issues (flat tail, breaking down on flush etc...) . I can grantee a lot of those boot polished had their spirit broke by some insecure trainer.

One thing I have noticed is the owners of the boot lickers are quite happy with their dogs and it is the people who trial find them to be a problem. And if the dog runs big the people who have them are quite happy with them but it is the people with the bootlickers that find them a problem. Does it say anything to any of you that you find fault with the other guys dogs but are happy with yours? It happens both ways and it makes absolutely no sense to always be critizing each others dogs when they are hunting exactly like their owners want them to hunt in the cover they hunt. Sounds to me like we have a lot of good dogs and a lot of owners love to find fault with anything that isn't theirs.

Ezzy

I don't disagree with you, but I think part of this may come from the fact that most trialers started as hunters. Therefore, they probably owned the bootlicker type dog. I did, and I loved my dogs. Now that I have hunted behind both I have seen the advantage of having a bigger running dog. I kill more birds, find more birds and enjoy it a lot more. On the flip side, the hunters hunting with closer working dogs, for the most part haven't even experienced this type of animal. They are making judgement and assuming a result in hunting that they have ZERO idea.

[Vonzeppelinkennels]

The first GSP I owned was a bootlicker that was the toughest GSP I ever owned & she worshipped the ground I walked on.There is no doubdt in my mind she would have died protecting meYou could have hit her in the head with a 2 by 4 & she would have looked at you like is that all you got.The best cripple finder I ever owned & served me well as a meat dog but a far cry from being the best dog I ever owned although I miss her dearly & teared up to write this.Her picture with a couple Phez & shotgun is on the shelf beside me.

[ACooper]

Most fail to take into account that everyone is hunting the same terrain on the same birds, arguments get started about what is the most useful dog and everyone piles on.

I can tell you that many are of the field I hunt for pheasants are only about 20-30 acres with a 1/2 mile hedge row that connects to another smallish field. It is much less hassle to have a dog that naturally hunts close in those situations. BUT when quail hunting in W OK it doesn't hurt to have a dog that will hunt 400-500 yds. Horses for courses and we all hunt different terrain and different birds, what works for one may not work for another.

[cjuve]

Elkhunter,
We are in the same boat, I hunt in the wide open expanses with likely bird objectives almost always 500 yds or more apart. I also put dogs down in front of a horse whenever possible. I have found that the bigger running type of dog is much more effective in this type of terrian and for my hunting style and how I feel I should pursue and take my gamebirds. So,IMO the hunter's personality palys a huge role in what type of dog is RIGHT for them. IMO some people are not wired to have big running dogs just like I am not wired to have shorter working dogs. I know people that hunt a 50 yd dog in the same place that I encourage my dogs to hunt big and they still do well, although their style differers substantially from mine. It's all about the right animal to make our time in the field as enjoyable as possible.

[mxdad777]

You know, I'm fairly new to this forum, but I look at it this way.........I have a 4x4 Chevy truck, an 85 Jeep CJ7, three 2 wheel dirt bikes and a quad in my garage. My neighbor has a Toyota Sequoia, 1969 Camaro and a Harley in his garage. He loves going fast on the pavement and I like playing in the dirt. Both of us have fun with our hobbies and occasionally enjoy tagging along with each other. He goes on a dirt bike ride with me and I've been with him burning up some rubber in his Camaro. Bottom line is, we both enjoy our hobbies and neither of us is better, or has better toys than the other. I think hunting birds, however you choose to do it, is a great way to spend your time.
And for the record, I have a pointing lab that goes to work with me everyday and licks every customer that walks through my door. My regular customers know her by name, and call out for her if she doesn't greet them immediately. On the weekends she is hunting upland game with me in the fields quartering back in forth about 50 yards in front of me. Either that, or she's sitting in a duck blind next to me waiting for the next duck to fall out of the sky. SHE'S EXACTLY THE RIGHT DOG FOR ME. As far as I'm concerned, if your outside with your dog chasing birds and have a gun in your hand, life can't get much better.

[Grange]

As an aside...I'll bet most of the supposed 4-500 yd dogs folks talk about are hunting a lot closer than the owners think.

In the grouse woods I will say that is sometimes the case at least with my experience. I've ran my dog with friends that aren't heavy into hunting and asked them how far out my setter was running. Most of the time they guessed a distance much greater than what she really was. I used my Astro to know the actual distance.

[Wenaha]

[CherrystoneWeims]

All of the above is why using "breeding for the average hunter" as a justification for a certain type of hunting dog is fundamentally flawed. The average hunter either hunts dogless in the uplands...or uses a Lab.

I wholeheartedly agree that those of us who pursue upland birds with pointing breeds are most definitely in the minority.

Just from my many years of upland hunting and where I come from, I have to strongly disagree with this statement. I can't say what it is like in every part of the country....Just speaking from my 40 plus years of upland hunting. Admittedly, my experience has, for the most part been limited to the mid west.

Charlie

In my area it's a mixed bag. There are a lot of Labs and Boykins but we also have loads of pointers!