Foot Hunting/trial range

JKP
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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by JKP » Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:23 pm

GPS has made 500-1000 yd hunting more possible...anyone that argues that isn't being realistic. Don't see how locating game by satellite can be called sporting...I know that's my opinion. I also don't care for semi autos and folks that hunt without a solid retrieving dog. Makes me old fashioned....but I say it with pride.

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by cjuve » Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:35 pm

adogslife wrote:Is that your response?
That I shouldn't run with a loaded gun?
Now, that's too funny.
I feel that I have already explained myself plenty. If a person feels the need to run to a point with a loaded gun then I get the impression that their need kill far outweighs their common sense.

I use the dogs to cover ground so that I do not have to, I don't run to points because to me it is not worth the risk and I trust my dogs to handle the birds correctly. If the dogs make a mistake there are more birds and the dogs will be better the next time.

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by brad27 » Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:39 pm

JKP wrote:GPS has made 500-1000 yd hunting more possible...anyone that argues that isn't being realistic. Don't see how locating game by satellite can be called sporting...I know that's my opinion. I also don't care for semi autos and folks that hunt without a solid retrieving dog. Makes me old fashioned....but I say it with pride.
Yes, GPS has made hunting a larger running dog more possible. You know what else it has made possible? Hunting a closer working dog in heavy cover. What does a bell do? helps you know where the dog is when you can't see it. What does a beeper do? helps you know where the dog is when you can't see it. What does a GPS do? yep, you guessed it, helps you know where the dog is when you can't see it. I personally don't see the difference between the three. Use what makes sense to you.

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by adogslife » Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:47 pm

You missed the point.
Are you attempting to discredit me?
I didn't say I run with a gun. Did I?

The point is, it's easy to close the gap on a 300' dog than a 1,200' dog.

I trust my dogs to handle the birds correctly.
If the dogs make a mistake there are more birds and the dogs will be better the next time.
Why would you blame your dog for YOU being too far from your dog and in the process of closing the gap flushed the bird?

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by adogslife » Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:49 pm

I'm sure it was merely missed in all the other hype.

What venue allows the use of a GPS?

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by brad27 » Fri Nov 18, 2011 12:58 pm

adogslife wrote:I'm sure it was merely missed in all the other hype.

What venue allows the use of a GPS?
I know this is a loaded question but i'll answer it anyways................................. AKC/AF field trials. not sure if any others do.

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by cjuve » Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:05 pm

adogslife wrote:You missed the point.
Are you attempting to discredit me?
I didn't say I run with a gun. Did I?

The point is, it's easy to close the gap on a 300' dog than a 1,200' dog.

I trust my dogs to handle the birds correctly.
If the dogs make a mistake there are more birds and the dogs will be better the next time.
Why would you blame your dog for YOU being too far from your dog and in the process of closing the gap flushed the bird?
I was trying to relay that there is no reason to rush to the point, if my dog is doing their job then the birds will be there. Depending on the situation the dog needs to handle the birds a certain way in order to hold the birds or a bird.

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by adogslife » Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:07 pm

I know this is a loaded question
Let's run with it,anyway. :)

Why is it allowed?

Can we talk about scouts?

In vdog venues my dog can't wear a GPS and can't have anyone looking out for it.
I don't have a horse to sit higher to see my dog better or to get to my dog faster.

Difference,for sure between venues.

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by Dirtysteve » Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:08 pm

I have only hunted with gps for 1 year now. Before that I just hunted like most everybody else. If my dogs go on point at 500 yards the birds will still be there Why? because he has learned to stand them off and not crowd. Birds won't flush if the dog isn't right on top of them. If they have moved a little then relocate and find them again. It doesn't matter at what range as long as you have a dog with manners.
This is the same with the sharptails I hunt here, maybe they react different than yours?
The main reason I have a GPS is for safety. In the canyons I hunt its so easy to walk past a dog thats off a cliff pointing weather it be 25 yards or several hundred. My dogs are very important to me so anything I can to to make them safer I will even if that means satellite hunting as you call it.
Also if you think I'm lazy come spend a week out here hunting. Nothing lazy about hiking for 4 or 5 hours. This isn't flat land praire hunting

No one allows gps tracking in a trial. You can have it on the dog but the minute you need to use it your disqualified
Last edited by Dirtysteve on Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by adogslife » Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:08 pm

if my dog is doing their job then the birds will be there.
What????
Birds won't flush if the dog isn't right on top of them.
You don't hunt enough.
Last edited by adogslife on Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by brad27 » Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:09 pm

Difference,for sure between venues.
Is that a bad thing?

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by Dirtysteve » Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:11 pm

adogslife wrote:
if my dog is doing their job then the birds will be there.
What????
Birds won't flush if the dog isn't right on top of them.
You don't hunt enough.

Over 22 days this year
Maybe my dogs has a better nose than yours and will stand them off and not make them feel pressured

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by adogslife » Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:12 pm

No, not bad.

if the dogs and hunters are benefitting from the difference, I'm for it.

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by adogslife » Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:13 pm

Maybe my dogs has a better nose than yours and will stand them off and not make them feel pressured
Yeah, that must be it.

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by cjuve » Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:15 pm

adogslife wrote:
I know this is a loaded question
Let's run with it,anyway. :)

Why is it allowed?

Can we talk about scouts?

In vdog venues my dog can't wear a GPS and can't have anyone looking out for it.
I don't have a horse to sit higher to see my dog better or to get to my dog faster.

Difference,for sure between venues.
The GPS is only allowed as a tracking collar not to gain any type of advantage during the trial, It must be off and placed in the Judges hands.

I

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by adogslife » Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:18 pm

Used under what circumstances?

And a scout?

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by cjuve » Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:25 pm

adogslife wrote:Used under what circumstances?

And a scout?
The GPS is only allowed to be used when the dog has been ordered up or the handler has pulled them. It is only used to make sure that the dog makes it back to the trailer.

Scouts are used because the handler is supposed to ride the "Coarse" when you can't get the dog to show the scout is used to look to make sure that the dog is not pointed somewhere out of view or has strayed from the coarse.

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by brad27 » Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:27 pm

adogslife wrote:Used under what circumstances?

And a scout?
GPS-when a dog isn't seen for a period of time.

scout- someone to hold your horses reigns while you work the bird. :D

but you knew all this already.

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by Dirtysteve » Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:28 pm

adogslife where are you from?
I can see the benefits to a closer working dog in thick grouse woods and thick pheasant country. But why can't you see the benefits to a bigger running dog in places like I hunt?
scout- someone to hold your horses reigns while you work the bird.
Exactly!

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by Chukar12 » Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:41 pm

Because there are over 500 posts on a previous thread that identify behaviors clearly that would more than embarrass the portrayer of the behaviors if they had to own up and admit they own them. They cannot state an objective to their dissention or aggressive attack of a position that they do not share...and it is on the subject matter of nothing more important than this is how I spend my leisure time for most of us.

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by Chukar12 » Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:53 pm

Can we see the difference in manners, and in calling a person to account for their behavior? Should you choose to publicly criticize an activity or those involved should you not have a purpose? Doesn't there need to be an impending risk or a subsequent change that you can clearly state to support your position? Otherwise the way I was raised you are simply boorish and rude.

This is entirely different than simply stating that I prefer this or I prefer that...you see it all over though, Internet, bar, etc...think about the conflicts you start and your purpose for doing so, then when you shave you can remember that you are "that guy"

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by Wenaha » Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:12 pm

brad27 wrote:
adogslife wrote:Used under what circumstances?

And a scout?
GPS-when a dog isn't seen for a period of time.

scout- someone to hold your horses reigns while you work the bird. :D

but you knew all this already.
Under the rules of the AFTCA/AF the GPS tracking collar is not allowed to be used by a handler, scout or gallery member - nor anyone else during the time that a brace is running. The judge carries the handheld tracking unit. IF the handler calls for the tracker, his dog is immediately out of contention and judgement. Likewise, a handler is not allowed a walkie-talkie or cell phone to communicate with anyone during the brace.

A scout's job is to assist the handler. This is usually to release the dog at cast off, help keep track of the dog, locate the dog if the handler asks him to, carry water, hold the handler's horse during bird work, collar the dog to water and re-send him, and in some cases, to work a find for the handler if the handler is not able to get to the find promptly. The actions of the scout are subject to the judges permission and or scrutiny. A dog may be disqualified for scouting activities that the judges decide is not allowable.
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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by slistoe » Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:55 pm

adogslife wrote:
if my dog is doing their job then the birds will be there.
What????
Birds won't flush if the dog isn't right on top of them.
You don't hunt enough.
Really???
You may hunt alot but you don't know as much about birds and dogs as you like to think you do.
If the dog is doing there job right the birds will be there when I get there. I WILL NOT run to a point. I do not have to worry about "closing the gap". Birds hold tight when the dog is "on top of them enough". The line between not enough, enough, and too much is something that good dogs learn if allowed to. Some dogs never get it and their owners will be perpetually worried about "closing the gap".

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by slistoe » Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:57 pm

adogslife wrote:Used under what circumstances?

And a scout?
I truly hope you are asking these questions so you will know something and not make stupid assumptions in the future of things which you have a gleaned from the "I wanna hate trialing dogs" coffee shop.

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by ACooper » Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:07 pm

ROTTnBRITT wrote:Went talking about range. What is the average range for a dog working open country and what is the average range if a dog working thicker cover.

From another post. When you do have a dog that adjust according to the cover. How much is there going to be. I wouldnt think a 50 yrd dog in the grouse woods would open up to a 200 yrd dog out in open cover. But I'm not real educated on this stuff either. :D
No way to answer this question accurately.

More range is not always the answer, the same as having a close working dog is not always the most efficient. To many variables to consider, that is why sweeping/blanket statements always stir up so much activity. And everyone has an exception to the rule.... THE IS ALWAYS AN EXCEPTION TO THE RULE.

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by adogslife » Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:00 pm

My concern is whether or not FTs really are producing a better bird dog.

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by baileydog2007 » Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:04 pm

adogslife wrote:My concern is whether or not FTs really are producing a better bird dog.

FTs dont produce any dogs. Good breeding and a lot of training make good bird dogs, FTs are just a way some folks like to apply said training and breeding. FT dogs are not "good" BECAUSE they trial, they trial them when the owner sees the breeding and training in a particular dog is suitable to FT the animal.

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by brad27 » Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:20 pm

adogslife wrote:My concern is whether or not FTs really are producing a better bird dog.
I think any system or standard used to evaluate breeding stock produces better bird dogs.

Why do you feel FT's aren't producing better bird dogs.

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by Wenaha » Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:29 pm

adogslife wrote:My concern is whether or not FTs really are producing a better bird dog.
The original purpose of field trials and registries to to provide an assessment of performance and a reliable record of ancestry. This is all about evaluating breeding stock. I think that the answer is that field trials and registries HAVE produced better bird dogs, but that is my opinion of FT bred dogs for my purposes.

There are many FT venues that select for criteria based on what performance attributes they value. Can you define for us what you mean by ' better dogs'? Better for what? Better by what standard?
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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by RayGubernat » Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:46 pm

adogslife wrote:
I know this is a loaded question
Let's run with it,anyway. :)

Why is it allowed?

Can we talk about scouts?

In vdog venues my dog can't wear a GPS and can't have anyone looking out for it.
I don't have a horse to sit higher to see my dog better or to get to my dog faster.

Difference,for sure between venues.

Run with what?? The questions and concerns you have raised here have been andsered on this forum, again...and again...and again. Search the archives if you must.

As far as the horse thing, many AKC and some AF clubs go to great effort and expense to provide horses for those who do not own one but still wish to participate. But I suspect you knew that also.

You obviously are very impressed with Vdog format testing. That is great...for you. I encourage you to continue. I have the greatest respect for what the dogs accomplish in these tests. I could poke fun at the fact that most folks train their dog's butt off for the "natural ability" test, but then I would be doing what you are doing instead of being supportive of how another person chooses to have fun with their dog.

While I have the greatest respect for what the dogs accomplish in these tests, and the human effort involved, I have absolutely no desire whatsoever to participate in this type of event. The versatile testing I have seen is only slightly more interesting to me than watching paint dry and that may be because the abilities of the dogs that many of these tests seek to define and evaluate are virtually useless to me, and I for one would very likely not enjoy hunting over such a dog as much as I enjoy hunting over a dog whose abilities are defined and evaluated by field trials.

Sooooo, for you, vdog testing produces the ultimate hunting companion. Wonderful. Have at it. I think you should own, hunt, compete with whatever kind of dog floats your boat, whatever way you choose to.

RayG

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by JKP » Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:50 pm

I hear Garmin is working on a miniature drone that recognizes the heat signature of game birds. A dog won't be necessary.

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by fuzznut » Fri Nov 18, 2011 4:59 pm

I think some are missing a very important point....
The GOOD dogs not only adjust to the grounds presented to them, but they also know when being handled off foot and adjust to that as well. I know All Age GSP's and more then one big going Wire that switch off the All Age/Shooting dog mode and turn into nice little foot hunt'n gun dogs when their owners take them hunting.

The good ones know the difference, horse, gallery..... trial mode. No horse, owner on foot carrying gun... hunting mode.
I'll take the one that knows the difference. And there are plenty of em.
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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by brad27 » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:04 pm

JKP wrote:I hear Garmin is working on a miniature drone that recognizes the heat signature of game birds. A dog won't be necessary.
A dog isnt necessary. I've hunted for the past 22 years without one. Please go back and read chukar12's 2 posts. This could be a good topic of discussion if you would like to be serious.

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by live4point » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:10 pm

adogslife wrote:My concern is whether or not FTs really are producing a better bird dog.
I have bird hunted fo a long time,and have hunted,trained and owned many bird dogs over the years.I am a setter man at heart,but I would walk a mile to watch a good dog of any breed point a bird.Although I'm a setter guy,I have always had a weakness for an all white pointer,just love the looks of them,and although I find that most pointers hunt bigger than I like,every few years I will try another one,I figure one day I will find what I'm after,but I have a lot better luck in finding the kind of dog I like in a setter.There may be a few on here that remember me looking for an all white pointer a few years back,well I ended up buying one.I bought an all white,big,fine looking pointer from a field trialer.The man was an honest guy,and I let him know that I needed a solid medium range dog that I could foot hunt with.This was an 8 year old dog, ex field trial dog, that the guy told me had been a real big runner in his day,but had shortened way up because of age,I took the man at his word and bought the dog.To see what the dog was made of before I hunted with him,my buddy and I released a few pen raised birds for the dog in fairly short cover,I opened up the dog box,let the dog on the ground and let him go on his own,I wanted to see what the dog could do on his own,not what I could make him do.The dog locked up and pointed the pen raised birds as solid as a rock,and looked like a million bucks doing it.He was so solid,I walked 50 yds back to my truck to get a net to catch the bird, the whole time the dog being on point.Everything looked great,my buddy and I were impressed with the old dog,and the old solid dog was just what we wanted to hunt my buddy's 7 month old setter pup with to get it some bird exposure.The reason I tell this story,is that when we started hunting the dogs together on wild birds,the setter pup,who had only pointed a couple of pen raised birds in the training field,kicked the old all age field trial dogs butt not once, but 3 consecutive hunts in a row before I decided I had seen enough.We were in to birds on all three hunts,with the setter pup pointing them all,the old pointer never found a wild bird.Now I know there are field trial dogs out there that are as good of gun dogs as can be,but in my opinion,a field trial champ doesn't mean squatt to me until it has proven itself to be a good wild bird dog also.There is a world of difference on getting it done on pen raised released birds than getting it done on the real thing.

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by Garrison » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:30 pm

Wenaha wrote:
adogslife wrote:My concern is whether or not FTs really are producing a better bird dog.
There are many FT venues that select for criteria based on what performance attributes they value.
Some how this is always forgotten, All FT's are not AA and all Versatiles are not Boot Polishers Lots of dogs in between, probably be safe to say most of them. adogslife I do agree with you FT's are not producing the best hunting dog for everyone nor do they claim to and the same for every type of FT or testing venue. Do you love your dog and how it hunts? I assure you that the Field Trial community had no adverse effects on your dog. We are in the middle of the hunting season and it seems more time is spent arguing about hunting then actually hunting let's see some good pics of some good dogs and enjoy the fact that we have so many venues producing so many great dogs that work in a style that is pleasing to us.
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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by slistoe » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:37 pm

brad27 wrote:
JKP wrote:I hear Garmin is working on a miniature drone that recognizes the heat signature of game birds. A dog won't be necessary.
A dog isnt necessary. I've hunted for the past 22 years without one.
x2. No one NEEDS a dog to shoot upland game birds. I would surmise that in many, many parts of the country the majority of birds are taken by dogless hunters.

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by ACooper » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:43 pm

adogslife wrote:My concern is whether or not FTs really are producing a better bird dog.
FTs are NOT producing better versatile dogs... but I don't think there is any doubt they are producing better specialists. Now which you see as more important is personnel preference.

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by ACooper » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:44 pm

slistoe wrote:
brad27 wrote:
JKP wrote:I hear Garmin is working on a miniature drone that recognizes the heat signature of game birds. A dog won't be necessary.
A dog isnt necessary. I've hunted for the past 22 years without one.
x2. No one NEEDS a dog to shoot upland game birds. I would surmise that in many, many parts of the country the majority of birds are taken by dogless hunters.
Maybe but what the heck is the fun in that, I don't use a dog to bag more birds, I hunt more birds to enjoy the dogs more!

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by slistoe » Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:53 pm

ACooper wrote:
Maybe but what the heck is the fun in that, I don't use a dog to bag more birds, I hunt more birds to enjoy the dogs more!
And that is precisely what many folks on here have been saying. If the only measure of the hunt is a full game bag that has nothing to do with the dogs. If the dogs are an integral part of the hunt then the hunt has more to it than simply a full game bag. I hunted upland birds for 5 years without a shotgun. My father had a very solid practical/ethical/moral argument against buying one for that purpose. I hunted upland birds for 10 years without a dog. In all that time my game bag was never lacking. Filling it was my primary motivator. Now I no longer hunt. I have dogs that do that for me. I simply come along and shoot birds.

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by JKP » Sat Nov 19, 2011 7:58 am

Maybe but what the heck is the fun in that, I don't use a dog to bag more birds, I hunt more birds to enjoy the dogs more!
Enjoying the dogs is the point. Locating dogs on point by GPS wouldn't be enjoyable for me..but each to his own. The real high point of the hunt for me is watching a dog make scent, move to the source and "banging" point. All the rest is anti-climactic...except maybe a difficult retrieve...bird laid in my hand.

That's why I can't understand a speck on the horizon as enjoyable....but that's me.

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by pointshootretrieve » Sat Nov 19, 2011 8:50 am

JKP wrote:
Maybe but what the heck is the fun in that, I don't use a dog to bag more birds, I hunt more birds to enjoy the dogs more!
Enjoying the dogs is the point. Locating dogs on point by GPS wouldn't be enjoyable for me..but each to his own. The real high point of the hunt for me is watching a dog make scent, move to the source and "banging" point. All the rest is anti-climactic...except maybe a difficult retrieve...bird laid in my hand.

That's why I can't understand a speck on the horizon as enjoyable....but that's me.

JKP if you can see all that in the grouse woods the dogs are too close. What are you talking inside of 20 yards? I am not looking for a horizon dog by any stretch of the imagination but I do not want to be watching a pointing dog work in front of me all day, that is just pointless they will never find game that I couldn't scare up myself my as well own a Lab. You sound like Don Smith all the time out in Dakota he was spouting off about how I just let my Pointer roll and as long as she was in front of us if she wanted to hunt every hill in the cover I allowed it, he felt the dog should be within 70 yards of us on the prairie :roll: Needless to say she was by far the most productive dog we put on the ground and she doesn't wear a GPS around her neck. :wink:

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by RayGubernat » Sat Nov 19, 2011 10:17 am

JKP wrote:I hear Garmin is working on a miniature drone that recognizes the heat signature of game birds. A dog won't be necessary.

That's very funny.

You know, I heard something too. I heard that the vdog testing was being amended in Germany to state that if a dog raised its head to be level with it's shoulders at any time during the test...it was immediately disqualified and its papers were voided. :twisted: :twisted: :lol: :lol:

:wink: :wink:
RayG

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by JKP » Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:09 am

You sound like Don Smith all the time
Talk about insults...you really know how to hurt a guy :lol: :lol:

I have a problem with hunting by satellite....as we have seen here with numbers and directional signals of 5-900. But then as I said, I don't like semi autos either or finding cold birds some one left unrecovered. I wouldn't enjoy working "with" a dog that is 700 yds away across the next draw. I hunt to work with the dog....not track it. Enabling dogs to be completely independent through electronics isn't my idea of hunting. I don't see this as foot hunting range. A serious 2-300 yd dog is my preference out in the grass/brushlands....is just more enjoyable for me. We have heard so much on this site about how shooting birds isn't always the point....how enjoying the dog work is the point....exactly how much is there to see and enjoy beyond 5-600 yds? Each to his own....but I think when buying a dog this is a question that should be answered. Many of our dogs have the manners on contact no matter what their range. It is the degree of independence that is often the mismatch.

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by slistoe » Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:41 am

JKP wrote: I have a problem with hunting by satellite....
You also have a problem with being rude and condescending to those who do. Instead of expounding the virtues of that which you enjoy you choose to deride that which you don't. Which makes statements such as this "Each to his own" rather hollow.
JKP wrote:It is the degree of independence that is often the mismatch.
There is one crux of the matter. I do not hunt with any type of electronics on my dogs and have had dogs that would easily carry a 1/2 mile cast. I don't own a horse nor do I have a means of getting my ATV out of my yard. I foot hunt. Always have and hope that I always will be able to. I can foot hunt for days on end because it is really not much work. I meander along, relaxing and enjoying the beauty of the day and the grounds while the dog hunts for birds. When it finds some I walk over there, flush and shoot at them. I currently own dogs that will not lay down a 600 yard cast and I find it rather frustrating. My feet are tired at the end of the day. As I get older I will definitely be seeking out a true 1/2 mile dog to take to the field with.

I fully understand the anxiety that many feel when the dog goes out of sight. I empathize with those who don't have the time or talent to train and proof an honest dog with manners. I get the sense of awe and amazement at seeing a good dog work it's game. I've been there and done all that.I started at the "trial dogs are the scourge of anything decent and good" stage, brought about by reading the popular press at the impressionable age of 12. I have shot pointed birds over an Australian Cattle Dog that retrieved to hand. He was a great bird detector anytime we took him to game.

So, hunt what you want in the manner that pleases you. But get off your high horse.

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by baileydog2007 » Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:46 am

Talk about being on a high horse. Pot. Kettle. Black.

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by RayGubernat » Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:56 pm

baileydog2007 wrote:Talk about being on a high horse. Pot. Kettle. Black.
Baileydog -

You are another one of those who "knows what is best for others" and your posts in the past have proved that beyond a shadow of doubt. The poster in question stated their preferences and the reasons fo them. Unlike JKP (AND YOU) he was not rude, demeaning and condescending.

Pot keetle and black for sure...but most of us that ain't quite so tightly wrapped around our own axles... know who put the stew on to boil and who be stirrin' it.

RayG

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by baileydog2007 » Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:10 pm

RayGubernat wrote:
baileydog2007 wrote:Talk about being on a high horse. Pot. Kettle. Black.
Baileydog -

You are another one of those who "knows what is best for others" and your posts in the past have proved that beyond a shadow of doubt. The poster in question stated their preferences and the reasons fo them. Unlike JKP (AND YOU) he was not rude, demeaning and condescending.

Pot keetle and black for sure...but most of us that ain't quite so tightly wrapped around our own axles... know who put the stew on to boil and who be stirrin' it.

RayG

You dont read my posts then. Im a rookie at this pointing dog world, admittedly. Came here for advice and guidence. But, like at FTs, was met with arrogance and narrow mindedness. I have said MANY times, I dont claim my way/idea is right, I like/enjoy all things dogs. Its usually (99.99999% of the time) people who screw things up, with their agendas and egos. I like FTs, I like hunting, and I like dogs. There is no "right" or "better" venue or breed. Its all in the eye of the owner/participant. However, outside of the venue and breed, lie the people, and in my experience (admittely limited) FTers are arrogant and even posters on this site, who clearly trial, state that their "way" is right. I dont. But, I will call a spade a spade. And yes, slistoe was condescending and arroagant, if you read his last post in this thread. He said "I empathize with those who dont have the time or talent to train and proof an honest dog with manners". First off, Im sure he is basing his "honest dog" and "manners" on his own criteria. Then there is the shot that implies the guy he responded to lacks that. That is both arrogant and condescending. It also attempts to conclude his way is "right" and the one he is replying to is not. IMO, whatever works for you, is "right". For you, like many on here, there is a clear right and wrong. I disagree. I will however, agree a great many are arroagnt and condescending.


You arent tightly wrapped around your own axles??? Do you read your own posts?????

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by RayGubernat » Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:40 pm

Baileydog -

Au contraire mon ami. I have read your posts.

Your recent post does nothing whatsoever to change my opinion of you. As I expected. However your attempt to pose as a newbie and thereby garner sympathy... adds a new dimension. I am not buying into that bit of misdirection.

It is perhaps an unfortunate fact, but a fact, nonetheless, that a pointing dog with a healthy dose of independence requires a fair bit of training to be most useful as a hunting companion. It is also an unfortunate fact, but a fact nonetheless that a fair number of folks who hunt simply do not have (some combination of) the time, facilities, opportunity, knowledge, ability, willingness...to bring along such a dog and get the most out of them.
THAT IS NOT THE DOG'S FAULT.

Pointing dogs take more training to be useful than flushing dogs or flushing retrievers in the upland. That is the way that it is. A fact. The more independent and driven the pointing dog is, the more training it is likely to require to make the best use out of those abilities.

Many many drivers can get behind the wheel of a Chevy Impala with an automatic trans, and drive it away just fine. Not so many can slip behind the wheel of a Porsche or Lotus and do the same. The higher powered cars take a bit of getting used to and require different handling.

Same thing with dogs. But you know that.

RayG
Last edited by RayGubernat on Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by Wenaha » Sat Nov 19, 2011 1:43 pm

When I began field trialing, I found the people to be invariably inclusive and helpful. I still see this at trials - the participants are very helpful to beginners and each other - scouting, loaning horses, offering training tips and pointing people towards others who can help.

The problem of "arrogance" usually arises on these boards when somebody without any (or very little) field trialing experience or knowledge starts talking about trials in a derogatory manner, or starts dissing FT dogs, formats, or participants. This, in my observation, is usually somebody who is young, has limited bird dog experience, or carries some kind of grudge against field trials. I have seen an awful lot of this over the years, and, frankly, it is extremely tiresome.

I admit that, when provoked, lots of people respond in kind. Perhaps not the best behavior, but we are all human.
Life is short
Quit your job.
Turn off the TV.
Go outside and play.

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Re: Foot Hunting/trial range

Post by baileydog2007 » Sat Nov 19, 2011 4:19 pm

RayGubernat wrote:Baileydog -

Au contraire mon ami. I have read your posts.

Your recent post does nothing whatsoever to change my opinion of you. As I expected. However your attempt to pose as a newbie and thereby garner sympathy... adds a new dimension. I am not buying into that bit of misdirection.

It is perhaps an unfortunate fact, but a fact, nonetheless, that a pointing dog with a healthy dose of independence requires a fair bit of training to be most useful as a hunting companion. It is also an unfortunate fact, but a fact nonetheless that a fair number of folks who hunt simply do not have (some combination of) the time, facilities, opportunity, knowledge, ability, willingness...to bring along such a dog and get the most out of them.
THAT IS NOT THE DOG'S FAULT.

Pointing dogs take more training to be useful than flushing dogs or flushing retrievers in the upland. That is the way that it is. A fact. The more independent and driven the pointing dog is, the more training it is likely to require to make the best use out of those abilities.

Many many drivers can get behind the wheel of a Chevy Impala with an automatic trans, and drive it away just fine. Not so many can slip behind the wheel of a Porsche or Lotus and do the same. The higher powered cars take a bit of getting used to and require different handling.

Same thing with dogs. But you know that.

RayG

I would agree with your points in this this post. But, the fact I agree, means little. You are always right, dont believe me, just read any one of your posts, you make it clear, your simply the smartest guy you know. The fact Im "new to this" is also a fact, and also means little. The problem with your "car" analogy is, not everyone shares your opinion of what is a "Lotus" or a "Chevy Impala", when it comes to dogs, but Lord knows, however you see it, is correct. Your degree of arrogance is unmatched (but a few other "experts" on here are "bleep" close)!

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