Aussie's view of the Kleeman Seiger

[Vision]

I found this article interesting in light of the all the vdog talk recently.

http://widebaygundogs.com/kleemanselectiontrial.html

[Cajun Casey]

Oh. Not what I expected. I thought they put an Australian shepherd up for KS. Silly. An Aussie wouldn't put up with that nonsense. It'd have those ducks run up too tight for anything to retrieve one.

[birddog1220]

your lucky that you were there to see a ks. hopefuly i will get there one day with my dogs

[JKP]

I have never seen an IKP...but I have seen brace work by DD in Denmark...these were very fast moving dogs woking at 1-300 yds in a typically trained windshield wiper fashion. These dogs had great intensity on point, backed at first sight, flushed on command (normal for Denmark), sat at the flush and retrieved to hand on command. These dogs were 100% out of German lines, where DD run the same tests and hunt the same conditions as DK.

Much of what the Germans do is about preserving genetic instincts .... what the dogs become dpends on training.

[birddog1220]

jkp when you were in denmark and saw the the dds backing was that the norm there? usally they dont have a lot of backing instinct. dont know if i would like the flushing and sitting part but when in germany

[markj]

A very interesting read, one which kindsa reflects the way many American Shorthair folks feel about the breed.

But, them german dogs were trained for them tests, it doesnt mean they would not excel in American venues which they have done. So in my opinion which you get for free is take a pup from anmy good hunting line, train it up the way you hunt and you will have a good dog. the ground work is there in each pup, just gotta bring out what you want brought out.

I will go so far as to say training methods make 90% of the finished dog.

[JKP]

when you were in denmark and saw the the dds backing was that the norm there? usally they dont have a lot of backing instinct. dont know if i would like the flushing and sitting part but when in germany

First....flushing on command is pretty common in Europe, from Slovakia to Norway. Remember this is about practical hunting...not a formulated competitive venue. Dogs that can flush game and then control themselves on the flush....are usually pretty stable, trainable dogs. I don't see how anyone could not appreciate what this kind of training says about a dog. Remember...e-collars are illegal in Europe. In Germany you can lose your hunting rights and the organizer of that day's hunt can be fined as well.

I have only been on a few small game hunts in Germany. Some were driven hunts through cover where dogs are kept under control. used mainly for retrieving and do occasionally point tight sitting game. I have also been on walk up hunts as we do here. The dogs ranged from 50-150 yds, had impeccable manners on game and, yes, I did see numerous examples of backing. The difference is that dogs relocate freely on moving game. This is highly prized by German hunters...dogs that maintain contact without loosing control. I have seen dogs stop to flush on flushing hare...some immediately drop to the ground, head up and watch the game....this is for control and safety ... hare are more safely shot without a dog chasing or standing in the way.

Very important...hunting in Germany is about harvesting game (and EVERY animal has to be accounted for). Hunting here is about sport...and a good effort at retrieving lost game is good enough.

I have NEVER had a DD that would not back...that did not back on its own after exposure to the "situation"...I have NEVER trained any of them to back (silhouettes and such)...however, some would not back certain dogs (usually weaker pointing dogs) which is not that unusual for many breeds and dogs. I have done this by running young dogs with older dogs in ND....

[birddog1220]

i asked that becouse i have seen many dds not backing or even showin signs of it. i hope if i get to germany one day to test that there will be time to hunt there and see different dds-dks in action. i know our hunting styles our prety different. a young german trainer came over a while back, and was amazed how different we train.

[JKP]

i asked that becouse i have seen many dds not backing or even showin signs of it.

Remember...walk up hunting is not the norm like here. Dogs don't have the same chance to learn backing as a part of normal hunting. Dogs with strong pointing instinct usually don't have a problem if they have enough chance to make the association.

[birddog1220]

when you were there did they hunt one dog at a time?

[ACooper]

That was an excellent read, and very objective. You probably could replaced Aussie's view of Kleeman Seiger with American's view of Kleeman Seiger and it would still be spot on. Though there are DK's and DD's excelling at American games.

[JKP]

when you were there did they hunt one dog at a time?

Sometimes...but I have seen 3-5 dogs at once in a free searching hunt. I can think of at least 4 breeders I have visited that have taken out a brace to show me their work.