To breed or not to breed... for bite

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:41 am

When I went to pick up Moxy I checked her bite while the breeder and I were talking. When the breeder asked what I was doing and I told him he said, "You know, they don't point with their teeth." On the other hand, Bob Wehle wrote in Wing and Shot that he had a phenomenal pup whose bite he checked one day. The bit was jacked and Wehle said he wouldn't stay in the kennel.

To you breeders out there, do you look at bite at all? What's your philosophy on breeding dogs with jacked bites? If you look negatively on it, how far from perfect does a bite have to be before you won't breed him?

solon · Post by **solon** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 6:19 am

The bite is a physical attribute that is examined by the judges at NAVHDA tests and abnormalities recorded. The same is no doubt true of the European breed clubs. Many breed clubs may tolerate some malocclusion and missing teeth, what were formally called the P1 premolars. Missing P1s is a normal variant. However, more severe bite problems may be disqualifying for breeding. In some cases, the malocclusions are severe enough that teeth have to be pulled and this is not a condition that a breeder wants to see in their pups. A big part of the performance of the continental breeds is retrieving and to the extent a bad bite would interfere with carrying game, it would not be tolerated. I guess the real question is to what extent bite problems are heritable. It is clear that there is some genetic predisposition to these bite malocclusions. There are breeds that have severe bite abnormalities as a desired breed characteristic-it takes all kinds!

For the major bird dog breeds, such as Pointers and E. Setters, there are no supervising breed clubs regulating breeding choices, so whether to breed a dog with a bad bite is up to the individual breeder. Bob Wehle was concerned about it and made the effort to breed away from bad bites.

Crestonegsp · Post by **Crestonegsp** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 6:58 am

When you say 'jacked bite" what do you mean? Overshot, undershot? Or something else?

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:16 am

Any sign of a bad bite is good enough to take the dog out of the gene pool IMO. Trying to determie how bad it is is much like being a little bit pregnant. It is either good or bad and bad doesn't cut it. Of course this will be argued with but a little bit off on one dog will just allow it to remain in the geneticsand the net generation maybe just slightly worse, so when is bad, bad enough? And there are plenty of dogs to breed that have a correct bite.

Ezzy

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:46 am

ezzy333 wrote:Any sign of a bad bite is good enough to take the dog out of the gene pool IMO. Trying to determie how bad it is is much like being a little bit pregnant. It is either good or bad and bad doesn't cut it. Of course this will be argued with but a little bit off on one dog will just allow it to remain in the geneticsand the net generation maybe just slightly worse, so when is bad, bad enough? And there are plenty of dogs to breed that have a correct bite.

Ezzy

Doesn't happen much but I agree with ezzy!

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:04 am

You have the draw the line somewhere and and a bad bite is a good reason to exclude a dog from breeding. There is no point to it. As mentioned above these traits tend to get worse in the generations. Heck persistent ear infections could even be a reason to exclude the dog.

Post by **topher40** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:31 am

Your breeder is right, the bite doesnt find birds. Why would you breed a dog with a bad or undesirable trait? No dog is perfect and ALL have flaws, if it is something you can live with then no one is holding you back. If I had a dog that was perfect in EVERY way and its only hole was a slight over/underbite then I would consider it. I didnt say I would do it, just consider the dog. I have not bred to dogs with smaller holes in them than a slight bite problem.

postoakshorthairs · Post by **postoakshorthairs** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:41 am

I went to look at some pups (pointers) a few years ago and could see the pups dam standing there with her bottom teeth visible with her mouth closed. I was a little surprised that he did it but more surprised of his general lack of knowldedge about genetics. I asked a guy i trained with who'd had and raised many pointer pups and was surprised that that community of dog people didn't care much about the bite. They'd trade a poker straight 12'oclock tail for a bad bite. He said one of the stud dogs he had had (who was a field ch. several times over with the AF) "a terrible bite" but was studded out quite a bit by him and continued to be after he sold him to another kennel.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:19 pm

Many folks will disagree with me but IMO the bite is an important part of the overall package. I also wish that AKC/AF would implement something similar to what NAVHDA does with checking bite and coat, testes etc. Just make a note of it, nothing to disqualify just a note. Many folks say it can't be done, or there isn't enough time, or whatever else, but the fact is it CAN be done if there was support for it. Maybe it should just be done at the championship trials, but it should be implemented on some level IMO.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:34 pm

I don't like BAD BITES anymore then the next guy,but like Topher stated ALL dogs have faults so who's to say exactly whitch ones are worse.To some bad feet might be a bigger fault or light eyes & you can go on & on.If faults of any kind are not to be bred what dogs are you going to breed??
Don't think because you never breed to bad bites you won't ever have them show up.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:46 pm

I am a big fan of the JRTCA's registration process: 1) Can't Register until 1 year of age 2) Can't Register without a JRTCA formed filled in and signed by a Vet 3) Color Pictures of the Dog, 4) Pedigree & 5) Stud Certificate.

This has been very effective in removing problems that plagued the breed for years like bad teeth & bites, overly aggressive temperaments, eye troubles, horrible coats, brindle dogs and the dreaded bow-legged puddin dogs.

It is too easy to rationalize a fault because before you know it, the breed is plagued with other problems and is beyond repair.

Stoneface · Post by **Stoneface** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:11 pm

Crestonegsp wrote:When you say 'jacked bite" what do you mean? Overshot, undershot? Or something else?

All of the above. Just taling about a less-than-desireable bite of any degree.

Everyone is say THAT they don't like bad bites, but no one is going much farther. How about answering WHY you don't like a bad bite when it really has no bearing on a dog's bird-finding ability. Also, if you had the absolute perfect dog, but he had a jacked bite, would you keep him in the kennel and trying to breed away from the bite or is a nice bite just an absolute must?

Keep in mind, I'm not really looking for advice on the subject. It's just a topic that I haven't seen any posts on and thought of it when I was checking my dogs' bites the other night. Just post your entire point of view.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:17 pm

StoneFace wrote:
Crestonegsp wrote:When you say 'jacked bite" what do you mean? Overshot, undershot? Or something else?
All of the above. Just taling about a less-than-desireable bite of any degree.

Everyone is say THAT they don't like bad bites, but no one is going much farther. How about answering WHY you don't like a bad bite when it really has no bearing on a dog's bird-finding ability. Also, if you had the absolute perfect dog, but he had a jacked bite, would you keep him in the kennel and trying to breed away from the bite or is a nice bite just an absolute must?

Keep in mind, I'm not really looking for advice on the subject. It's just a topic that I haven't seen any posts on and thought of it when I was checking my dogs' bites the other night. Just post your entire point of view.

The answer is simple. You can breed great bird dogs that are great looking and sound. You just have to try harder and be more patient that's all. And the job of doing that is better left with some people.

Why in the world would you want a dog with a bad bite? What is the accomplishment in that? What is the next physical compromise you make?

Dog has one eye but boy can it find birds. That's were it all leads.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:34 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote: Don't think because you never breed to bad bites you won't ever have them show up.

Very true, doesn't mean an attempt can't be made to reduce the number of bad bites though. IMO there is a difference between breeding dogs with good bites and having a bad bite show up and knowingly breeding a dog with a bad bite.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:06 pm

I didn't write the above quote....

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:25 pm

gpblitz wrote:
mcbosco wrote:I didn't write the above quote....
Sorry correction made.

no sweat

jasonw99 · Post by **jasonw99** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:38 pm

as long as they can eat it's a good bite lol. had to add dome humor.

I put bites in the same category is a shorthair without a solid liver head. some people it matters to and others it doesn't.

my preference solid liver heads and good bite

I may be wrong but comparing bad hips to a bad bite is like comparing apples to oranges. I don't think a bad bite effects the dog in a negative manner health wise

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:51 pm

jasonw99 wrote:as long as they can eat it's a good bite lol. had to add dome humor.

I put bites in the same category is a shorthair without a solid liver head. some people it matters to and others it doesn't.

my preference solid liver heads and good bite

I may be wrong but comparing bad hips to a bad bite is like comparing apples to oranges. I don't think a bad bite effects the dog in a negative manner health wise

Not yet, but over time the defect could become more pronounced, more severe and more common. I see them on par when it comes to the breeding decision, but clearly not on the decision to take a pup for non-breeding purposes.

Coveyrise64 · Post by **Coveyrise64** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:26 pm

gpblitz wrote:Depends how bad the bite is. If teeth have to be pulled so the dog can eat properly then IMO this is a negative health issue. A dog should be able to chew there food not swallow it whole in order to eat.

You're right Howie. Most think of a bad bite as problem with the incisors/canines; (overbite, underbite, or level bite). A bad bite typically includes the pre-molars/molars as well as the front teeth. If the pre-molars/molars are not aligned properly the chewing action is also affected. On a side note, if the rear teeth do align properly could the mis-alignment of the front incisors and/or canines been the result of early trauma.

Coveyrise64

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:27 pm

Howie I have seen some dogs with terrible ugly bites like alligators & worse but none have had teeth pulled & they all eat well & even retrieve.How do you get rid of faults really,you cull the pups with those faults & breed the ones with out those faults right or wrong? Now that we are on this subject like Howie said bites can change so much from puppy hood to adults untill the dog is fully mature you don't know what you have.
Example I had a litter here,one male pup I had,had a good bite untill 3 or 4 mos old & went under by a good 1/8 of an inch I kept an eye on it untill he was 8 or 9 mos old satyed under.I never reg this pup & quit checking,when he was about 18 mos old gave him to a man & when I opened his mouth to show him why I was giving him away low & behold a perfect scissors bite.
Andy even if they checked bites etc as you would like what would it change? Bad bites are a fault but only severly over or undershot bites are DQ's again subjective depending on the judge.
Now as far as solid LVR heads that's a total joke no where is it said a GSP should have a solid LVR head & you will see just as many blased heads in the show ring as anywhere.What does that mean?
Go to the new DK litter advertised in the 4 sale section,oh & even white ones must be pointers hiding in some of those German woodsheds?

dan v · Post by **dan v** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:43 pm

I think you have to look at the overall quality of the individual as compared to the rest of the genepool. For very prolific breeds, the dog would have to be spectacular, and maybe the bite would be a an issue for breeding. But what about the spectacular specimen within the small genepool? To paraphrase Dr. Jerold Bell DVM, breed away from the defect, but the spectacular individual should remain in the genepool until a suitable quality replacement is found.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 6:03 pm

Growing up we had a britt with a terrible bite, by the time she was seven she had several teeth pulled as they were worn and causing infection and pain, it was difficult getting her to eat enough to keep weight on, for the rest of her life she was a hard keeper, and had to eat canned or softened food and a tooth pulled from time to time, maybe that is not a big deal to some folks, to me I would rather do my best to try and avoid it.

Ted again when I said check bites at HT and FTs, IMO it should not be done to disqualify or rank a dog in anyway, it would just give info to people like me who are not able to see as many dogs as we would like.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:06 pm

Andy I understand what your sayingbut unless you intend to breed to that dog or something close to it why do you nned to know.If you are planning on breeding to it then you would check it personaly or some one you trust wouldn't you.Who would be responsible for keeping all those records AKC isn't with out additional charges I'm sure & people are already shying away from trials & even some reg because of the cost,especially in this economy.I doubt it will ever happen but not in my lifetime anyway.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:19 pm

Yes Howie but does NAVHDA reg any where near the no as AKC or FDSB ? Sorry don't think it will happen.I kinda heard the same thing from the Vdog people.
If I'm breeding a dog it's up to me to find out about the conformation faults or issues that concern me.

PkerStr8Tail · Post by **PkerStr8Tail** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 8:44 pm

So this kid should never breed?

1982_full.jpg

Wildweeds · Post by **Wildweeds** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:11 pm

Oh there's a butt for every seat...................that kid got some,probably has 8 or 9 kids................wait a minute he looks a little like that Duggan guy with 20+ kids............

PkerStr8Tail wrote:So this kid should never breed?

1982_full.jpg

Post by **ezzy333** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:08 pm

PkerStr8Tail wrote:So this kid should never breed?

1982_full.jpg

Not if we were doing away with buck teeth. You can breed whatever you like in this country, it just depends on what you want your dogs to look and act like for the next decade or two. If any of you prefer a bad bite you should breed for it and let other people know you are breeding for it . You know I think the answer is right before our very eyes. How many people have seen an ad for a litter of pups and it say great litter, should have excellent field potential and bad bites? If it was something people want they would advertise it but it really appears no one wants it but some are just to weak to try and eliminate it through their breeding program.

Ezzy

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:46 pm

Agreed Ezzy but I think the same could be said about advertising any faults! IF I have a pup or dog with a bad bite & I know it the potential buyer will also know it before they come to look at it or purchase it.
It's called being HONEST.

PkerStr8Tail · Post by **PkerStr8Tail** » Sat Nov 26, 2011 9:13 am

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote: Agreed Ezzy but I think the same could be said about advertising any faults! IF I have a pup or dog with a bad bite & I know it the potential buyer will also know it before they come to look at it or purchase it.
It's called being HONEST.

That is kind of what I was thinking. Why not say as well then, great show potential with great bites and will make excellant family pets but average nose and hunting ability? Perfect bites are important if you are going to show the dogs. Plus I think the bite has evolved as something anyone can see and evaluate when picking out a pup. Not saying bite is not something to care about but why only the bite? I have seen bow-legged dogs used, oversized and undersized for the breed. You name it. Every dog has faults, but that doesn't stop people from breeding them.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Nov 26, 2011 9:59 am

PkerStr8Tail wrote:
Vonzeppelinkennels wrote: Agreed Ezzy but I think the same could be said about advertising any faults! IF I have a pup or dog with a bad bite & I know it the potential buyer will also know it before they come to look at it or purchase it.
It's called being HONEST.
That is kind of what I was thinking. Why not say as well then, great show potential with great bites and will make excellant family pets but average nose and hunting ability? Perfect bites are important if you are going to show the dogs. Plus I think the bite has evolved as something anyone can see and evaluate when picking out a pup. Not saying bite is not something to care about but why only the bite? I have seen bow-legged dogs used, oversized and undersized for the breed. You name it. Every dog has faults, but that doesn't stop people from breeding them.

It sure does if they are responsible breeders. Any and every fault is a reason to not breed if there are better one to choose from. And anyone that breeds to animals with known DQ's are more concerned with making money than they are about the betterment of the breed.

I am aware that all dogs have places they could be improved on and that is exactly the purpose of selective breeding and normally that can be done without adding a major fault in some other area.

99% of the problems arise when people start deciding what faults are more important rather than try to get rid of all of them.

Ezzy

gotpointers · Post by **gotpointers** » Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:36 am

Since Wehle was brougt up earlier, I figured now is a good time to point out he also would not breed dogs with absence of color. He only would breed for evenly marked liver, black and would not go for the lighter tan or orange, also he bred for dark eyes. I may not have it worded exactly as he did, but its been quite a while since i read snakefoot. I know id better say it now before the armchair experts jump me on it.
Also how many dogs called now labeled as elhew dogs carry these traits.?
Very few from what I've seen here.

PkerStr8Tail · Post by **PkerStr8Tail** » Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:00 am

ezzy333 wrote:
PkerStr8Tail wrote:
Vonzeppelinkennels wrote: Agreed Ezzy but I think the same could be said about advertising any faults! IF I have a pup or dog with a bad bite & I know it the potential buyer will also know it before they come to look at it or purchase it.
It's called being HONEST.
That is kind of what I was thinking. Why not say as well then, great show potential with great bites and will make excellant family pets but average nose and hunting ability? Perfect bites are important if you are going to show the dogs. Plus I think the bite has evolved as something anyone can see and evaluate when picking out a pup. Not saying bite is not something to care about but why only the bite? I have seen bow-legged dogs used, oversized and undersized for the breed. You name it. Every dog has faults, but that doesn't stop people from breeding them.
It sure does if they are responsible breeders. Any and every fault is a reason to not breed if there are better one to choose from. And anyone that breeds to animals with known DQ's are more concerned with making money than they are about the betterment of the breed.

I am aware that all dogs have places they could be improved on and that is exactly the purpose of selective breeding and normally that can be done without adding a major fault in some other area.

99% of the problems arise when people start deciding what faults are more important rather than try to get rid of all of them.

Ezzy

There have been hunting breeds ruined by show people only concerned about bites. I have watched show people get a meaningless AKC JH title and think that proves the dog can hunt. I have watched dogs walk by the handler's side in an AKC JH event until they get to the bird field then stumble on a bird in a heavily planted bird field. Point it for a half second with it's tail between its legs like it was scared, looking at the owner like what should I do with no intensity and some call this proof of hunting ability. No offense, but do you think you have never breed or bought pups from a breeding with faults? Your saying breeding anything with faults is wrong and irresponsible. You can't hide behind the idea that you are not breeding "known" faults. Any breeder worth a darn would know his dogs strengths and faults.

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:31 am

[quote="There have been hunting breeds ruined by show people only concerned about bites. I have watched show people get a meaningless AKC JH title and think that proves the dog can hunt. I have watched dogs walk by the handler's side in an AKC JH event until they get to the bird field then stumble on a bird in a heavily planted bird field. Point it for a half second with it's tail between its legs like it was scared, looking at the owner like what should I do with no intensity and some call this proof of hunting ability. No offense, but do you think you have never breed or bought pups from a breeding with faults? Your saying breeding anything with faults is wrong and irresponsible. You can't hide behind the idea that you are not breeding "known" faults. Any breeder worth a darn would know his dogs strengths and faults.[/quote]
I am sure you have seen that but so far I have been lucky I guess since I haven't. Nice thing is the JH shows what was intended I think and that is whether the pup has the hunting instinct but was not designed to show how they will do but at least it is still there and from that point it would depend on how you train. I do understand it does not tell you how fast, how intense, position of the tail, or how good it will be but that is usually in the eye of the beholder anyway.

I believe truth be known just as many breeds have been changed by the trial people as have the show people. That is exactly my point, when you start selecting which faults bother you the most then we are all in trouble. Lets just breed for no faults and hope we get there someday in the far off future.

Ezzy

PkerStr8Tail · Post by **PkerStr8Tail** » Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:57 am

ezzy333 wrote: Lets just breed for no faults and hope we get there someday in the far off future.
Ezzy

I agree. That is why you don't throw one out just for a bad bite if it had several other traits that get you closer to perfection. The bad bite can be bred out much easier than lack of hunting instinct or smarts or ? Breeding for perfection is multi-generational effort and not one generation.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sat Nov 26, 2011 2:43 pm

Every bad bite is not a DQ only extreme & that my friend is subjective to a point.If you think EVERY SHOW CH has a perfect bite you would be sadly mistaken.
There are also plenty of FC out their running around with bad bites & many of them NFC's.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:08 pm

Howie where do you read that ? I haven't read the standard in awhile but don't remeber it changing so I just checked Bite DQ's extreme overbite or extreme underbite.Butt bite not desired & penalised but nothing about DQ.

Oh & extreme is subjective & like I have said before definate is NOT as definate as you seem to think.
I can give examples have before but no sense doing it again unless some one wants them.

I have never shown GSPS but been to several hundred saw one of the winninest GSP show dogs in history the first of only 2 to win Westminster.He was a magnificent specimen though maybe oversise or looked it anyways but he was a show dog & when you have a dog walk in the ring like he is a Banty Rooster up on there tiptoes saying look at me they can look bigger then they are.
You bring out the measuring wicket & they shrink to fit under it.

PkerStr8Tail · Post by **PkerStr8Tail** » Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:17 pm

gpblitz wrote: You bet, So as a breeder do you try strenthen faults or let it ride.

That is the point I am trying to make. I hear over and over start with the best or don't use a dog with DQ faults. If you and any breeder actually only bred dogs without faults there would be no breedings cause there is not such dog that has no faults or doesn't carry any recessive faults. I just think it is arrogant to stand up and say I only breed the best and won't use a dog with a less than perfect bite when at the same time they are in fact breeding something that is imperfect, but at least it isn't the bite, right?

ymepointer · Post by **ymepointer** » Sat Nov 26, 2011 4:21 pm

StoneFace wrote:Bob Wehle wrote in Wing and Shot that he had a phenomenal pup whose bite he checked one day. The bit was jacked and Wehle said he wouldn't stay in the kennel.

To you breeders out there, do you look at bite at all? What's your philosophy on breeding dogs with jacked bites? If you look negatively on it, how far from perfect does a bite have to be before you won't breed him?

When I was a kid, my mentor in bird dogs used to call undershot bites, "Elhew Bites" cuz they showed up so consistenty in elhew stock back then. Bob Welhe line bred on Two of his dogs with undershot bites, if I recall correclty, so really what he was saying i think is don't breed a dog just for his teeth, but don't discount one that's only flaw is an off bite. Nells Ramblin on I believe had a bad bite, National Champion Elhew Hulckberry did to IIRC. Read this article for more info on those Elhew bites.

http://www.superiorpointers.com/bite.html

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sat Nov 26, 2011 5:19 pm

Howie I'm not really trying to be right just been at this awhile from pretty much all sides heck I been wrong before ONCE!!

Don't think I'm trying to justify things because I'm stating some facts but F trials are only about performance nothing else,some don't like it but it is what it is.
I have seen things at dog shows that have dumb founded me when humans are involved nothing will be perfect.

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Sat Nov 26, 2011 5:20 pm

i'll take a bad bite over these barking poo artists that seem to abound

Is barking and poo painting faults?

birddogger · Post by **birddogger** » Sat Nov 26, 2011 5:36 pm

birddog1968 wrote:i'll take a bad bite over these barking poo artists that seem to abound Is barking and poo painting faults?

IMO, they are.

Charlie

Post by **ezzy333** » Sat Nov 26, 2011 5:43 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Every bad bite is not a DQ only extreme & that my friend is subjective to a point.If you think EVERY SHOW CH has a perfect bite you would be sadly mistaken.
There are also plenty of FC out their running around with bad bites & many of them NFC's.

All of what you say may be true but it does not make intentionally breeding any dog with a bad bite right. I'm not willing to breed dogs with known faults just because someone else has.

Ezzy

birddog1968 · Post by **birddog1968** » Sat Nov 26, 2011 5:50 pm

birddogger wrote:
birddog1968 wrote:i'll take a bad bite over these barking poo artists that seem to abound Is barking and poo painting faults?
IMO, they are.

Charlie

I concur 100%

Wildweeds · Post by **Wildweeds** » Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:03 pm

I hate poo artists too, the cleanest dog I own.....................backs up to the chainlink and drops his off at the neighbors.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:02 pm

Ezzy I never said I would or wouldn't breed it but I don't feel I have the right to tell anyone what they can or can not breed.That's why I don't believe in contracts!