GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

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GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:08 pm

Ok since we have been on DQ faults for GSP's which if either of these would you breed & why one over the other??

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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by MOOSE » Sat Nov 26, 2011 9:40 pm

I'll bite on this one! LOL

The black color is ONLY A DQ IN AKC!!!!! First and foremost. Every other registry that dogs can be shown in black is NOT a DQ!

Also bad bite can inhibit a dogs ability to chew and eat food along with grip a bird properly for strong retrieves. Dogs with bad bites also I have seen where their teeth are hitting the top part of their mouth so bad that there are sores in their mouth from it. So a bad bite can be physically detrimental to a dog. It isn't always but it can be.

Where as a color isn't going to hurt a dog. Unless of course you decide to run a black dog in 100 degree weather in the beating down sun. But that could be an issue with a liver dog too. Both are very dark colors. And that is a common sense issue with the owner not something that the dog was born with that can physically hurt the dog.

Does that work for an answer :D

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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:04 pm

I have no problem with your answer just helps to prove my point people will pick & choose what parts of the standard they want to go by.Your right only effects people that want to show in AKC conformation.
I have seen some ugly,ugly,bites & those dogs eat well & retreive but A dog doesn't really need teeth to retrieve but makes it easier in some cases.
A friend of mine owned an OLD Australian Shepherd that tore the cuff off my fairly new Levis with no teeth.The ups man would not get out of his truck if that toothless dog was loose.
A dog with a bad bite can run in F Trials can also be shown may or may not be DQed probably won't win at a show but can win F Trials. :)
Would you pay more for a Black GSP over a dog was the correct AKC color.

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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by ACooper » Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:10 pm

Color issues and health issues are like comparing apples and oranges IMO. My problem with bites, hips, etc have nothing to do with a standard.

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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:25 pm

Andy because a dog has a bad bite does not mean it has a health issue,it might but doesn't have to a dog with bad feet could have health issues,a bad back,all faults but not DQ's & this is about DQ faults nothing else.Would a flesh colored nose be a health issue just the color of his nose but a DQ.
I'm just trying to show how one fault is more important to some then others. That's all.
China eyes or walleyes a DQ just the color of the eyes what's the difference between coat colors or nose colors or eye colors?

Just asking opinions don't mean I want any of them just saying!!

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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by birddog1968 » Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:47 pm

Tight cat paws on an AKC Ep are a DQ , work perty darn well in the field tho......
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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:50 pm

Yep & I like tight catpaws the worse the terrain the better I like em.

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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by ACooper » Sun Nov 27, 2011 2:32 am

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote:Andy because a dog has a bad bite does not mean it has a health issue,it might but doesn't have to a dog with bad feet could have health issues,a bad back,all faults but not DQ's & this is about DQ faults nothing else.Would a flesh colored nose be a health issue just the color of his nose but a DQ.
I'm just trying to show how one fault is more important to some then others. That's all.
China eyes or walleyes a DQ just the color of the eyes what's the difference between coat colors or nose colors or eye colors?

Just asking opinions don't mean I want any of them just saying!!
Gotcha Ted, I would breed a dog with a minor conformational flaw if it was an excellent field dog. Minor flaw like light eyes, slightly over or undersized, b & w, etc

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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by Ruffshooter » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:27 am

This is how I see it. You breed the animals that contribute to a dog that is a high level, quality animal. As we always say on here, there are just too many dogs out there that get it done and are of proper confirmation too. You would not breed a dog that was born with three legs. So many here breed for the high tail or "proper tail". Why breed a true defect?

Bad bite is a physical deformatie. If you continually breed an animal and its pups with a physical deformatie it can get worse and more prevalant. Most breeders might only breed that animal once just to get another perfomer like its parents, but some will breed and ride that breeding to far and may even cross knowingly or unknowingly to another animal of high perfoeming caliber that has similar deformities, in which that deformitie may happen more often. Maybe the pup sold does not have a significantly poor bite or any problem with the bite, so the owner of the pup has a good FT dog or hunter and thinks I will breed this animal because he is so good. Breeds to a bitch with a mild bite issue but a great dog. Now you have multiplied the bite issues that may creep up in future litters.

Bull dogs are the extreme of bad bite, how did that get there.

Color is just color and will not have an affect on the structure of an animal.
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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by dan v » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:42 am

Bull dogs are the extreme of bad bite, how did that get there.
Ah, because that's what the AKC standard calls for?
Bite--Jaws--The jaws should be massive, very broad, square and "undershot," the lower jaw projecting considerably in front of the upper jaw and turning up.
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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by Winchey » Sun Nov 27, 2011 8:04 am

There are a lot of things that are basically of no importance to me, size (as long as the dog can run) seen 30lb to 70lb rockets. Eye colour, fur colour... Just as long as people breed dogs that are exceptional hunters, have good temperament, are healthy/hold together/hunt and live a long time, I am sure I can find one that I like the look of. I mean I like the looks of the trial setters, labs, springers, pointers, better than their show or dual counterparts.

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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:47 am

Wyndancer wrote:
Bull dogs are the extreme of bad bite, how did that get there.
Ah, because that's what the AKC standard calls for?
Bite--Jaws--The jaws should be massive, very broad, square and "undershot," the lower jaw projecting considerably in front of the upper jaw and turning up.
The answer is NO. It is Ok because that is what the bulldog standard calls for.

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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by Winchey » Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:20 am

Ezzy that is ridiculous, it is not ok to breed unhealthy dogs because some idiot wrote down a breed standard a long time ago. Just as it is not acceptable to breed vicious dogs and sell them as family pets because that is how they were bread historically.

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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by ezzy333 » Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:19 am

Winchey wrote:Ezzy that is ridiculous, it is not ok to breed unhealthy dogs because some idiot wrote down a breed standard a long time ago. Just as it is not acceptable to breed vicious dogs and sell them as family pets because that is how they were bread historically.
Think you better go back and find out how the breed standards were written, are kept up to date, and who wrote them plus who voted to approve them and send them to AKC. If you belong to your breed club you should know this as you are part of the group who does all of that.

Remember, I am just the messenger that reported how it works and didn't make the rules. But I am a firm believer in the fact that a large group of breeders is a better sample of what our breeds are to everyone than just our own personal opinion of what we like and think it is the only opinion that counts.

And after all of this where did you think that I disagreed with what you just stated?

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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by nikegundog » Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:30 am

ezzy333 wrote:
Winchey wrote:Ezzy that is ridiculous, it is not ok to breed unhealthy dogs because some idiot wrote down a breed standard a long time ago. Just as it is not acceptable to breed vicious dogs and sell them as family pets because that is how they were bread historically.
Think you better go back and find out how the breed standards were written, are kept up to date, and who wrote them plus who voted to approve them and send them to AKC. If you belong to your breed club you should know this as you are part of the group who does all of that.

Remember, I am just the messenger that reported how it works and didn't make the rules. But I am a firm believer in the fact that a large group of breeders is a better sample of what our breeds are to everyone than just our own personal opinion of what we like and think it is the only opinion that counts.

And after all of this where did you think that I disagreed with what you just stated?

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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by Winchey » Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:46 am

"The answer is NO. It is Ok because that is what the bulldog standard calls for."

You are correct, I should learn more as to how the decisions are made, but why would I be interested in what the English Setter Club of Canada says a setter should look like? I am sorry but the dogs they have, have more in common with my Golden then my setter, I have no interest in that type of setter and I am glad there are people producing the type of setter I like. I also have a Small Munsterlander. The club has recently joined the German parent club, I would much rather see dogs bread according to the laws and the game that abounds in the geography in which they will hunt and what they are used for rather then how the Germans think they should be.

Anyways I just want their to be dogs that fit my needs and that I like, I don't care if someone else considers it a mutt, I really see no benefit in trying to have all dogs represent a breed standard to a T, why would we want a bunch of clones, we see on here everyday that nobody can agree what a good dog is, why would we let someone else tell us what an entire breed should be.

JMO, I am certainly no expert, interesting topic though, as was the one this was spawned from.

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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by mcbosco » Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:15 pm

Winchey wrote:"The answer is NO. It is Ok because that is what the bulldog standard calls for."

You are correct, I should learn more as to how the decisions are made, but why would I be interested in what the English Setter Club of Canada says a setter should look like? I am sorry but the dogs they have, have more in common with my Golden then my setter, I have no interest in that type of setter and I am glad there are people producing the type of setter I like. I also have a Small Munsterlander. The club has recently joined the German parent club, I would much rather see dogs bread according to the laws and the game that abounds in the geography in which they will hunt and what they are used for rather then how the Germans think they should be.

Anyways I just want their to be dogs that fit my needs and that I like, I don't care if someone else considers it a mutt, I really see no benefit in trying to have all dogs represent a breed standard to a T, why would we want a bunch of clones, we see on here everyday that nobody can agree what a good dog is, why would we let someone else tell us what an entire breed should be.

JMO, I am certainly no expert, interesting topic though, as was the one this was spawned from.
Then you should start your own breed. Just go your own way but call them something else. Call the Pointers, North America White Pointers, the Shorthairs, North American Roan Pointers and the Setters, well, North American Setters. These would be just as valid a breed as any.

For better or worse, the word "breed" has a specific meaning.

There is something to be said for genetic purity, conformational consistency, sound health and sound temperament.

That is what "breed" means.

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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by Winchey » Sun Nov 27, 2011 6:34 pm

I will always be able to purchase a better dog then I will be able to breed myself and I will be able to do it a lot cheaper as well so I will not be starting my own breed. I did however mention in a previous post that temperament and health should be a supreme importance.
Obviously if the two dogs being bread are not both members of the same breed you wouldn't call them something they are not.

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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by JKP » Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:48 pm

But I am a firm believer in the fact that a large group of breeders is a better sample of what our breeds are to everyone than just our own personal opinion of what we like and think it is the only opinion that counts.

And after all of this where did you think that I disagreed with what you just stated?
FINALLY!!! I've been reading this and waiting for someone to suggest that when you breed dogs that you might have a responsibility to others. When you have folks that don't care about...size, color, bites, temperament, genetics (thyroid, monorchidism, and any one of another dozen common genetic faults), etc, etc, etc.....then don't be surprised when you look around and ave a hard time finding the breeding stock you want. Not an issue with GSP and Pointer...there's 1000's of them but breeds with smaller numbers get real tight when folks don't really give a R's A%$ and just breed what pleases them.

Serious breeders try to put solid breeding dogs on the ground for other breeders...IMO.

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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:30 pm

I started this thread because I know that most not all pick & choose the parts of the standard they agree with & disregard what they don't agree with.We also interperate what it means differently.
A bad bite is a bad bite but what is extreme could vary some from person to person & only extreme is a DQ. Black is a DQ but some like it & ignore that it's a DQ.

It's kinda like the laws in this country we choose which ones we abide by & ignore the others.There is probably not one person on this board that hasn't or doesn't break some law almost every day.
I do it almost every time I drive,at one time or another while driving down the rd I exceed the speed limit plus I don't always wear my seat belt.

All I'm trying to say is that people critisize others for maybe breeding to a dog with a bad bite but see nothing wrong with breeding a color that is a DQ no matter how you look at it & some will even PAY MORE for that DQed color.Makes no sense to me. :)

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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Sun Nov 27, 2011 11:47 pm

Howie I know it will pass sooner or later makes no difference to me but I for one will NEVER vote for it.They can already compete in my venue same as dogs with BAD BITES!!
F Trialing is about performance if a 3 legged dog has the BEST Performance he should be named the Winner! :)

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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:18 am

There are reasons I will never vote for it.
1 Just to p people off that it's important to.
2 I don't really think it looks good on a GSP never even heard of such thing in this country in 1974
3 The mostly White GSPS get more citisizm then the blacks will ever get because they have to be more pointer because they are white but we have white DK's & no pointer in them?
4 Blacks came here from the DK's but the DK breeders claim DKs are a different breed then GSPS but want black an acceppted color in the GSP standard,HUH?
5 I'm old & you know us pathetic old folks don't like CHANGE!! :lol:
I will never own one but once it passes would breed any of my studs to a female if asked if she is a BIRD DOG!
I could go on but will stop here.

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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by raven34 » Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:29 am

I have been watching the thread and saying "I am not getting into this" but I will give my opinon on the topic. As you all know I would breed to "BLACK". A buyer knows what they are getting when purchasing a puppy. A color. Not a malocclusion, potential future vet bills that can just pop up from generation to generation in their offspring without a buyer having a clue that this has been breed into the gene pool knoingly. If a puppy buyer purchases a black dog they know their is potential for black offspring to be produced. If a puppy buyer buys a liver puppy from the same black bitch they can avoid the black pigment by not using another black pigmented dog... One is a genetic defect the other is a personal preference.

And not all breeders that produce both black and liver puppies charge extra for black...I don't!
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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:47 am

Raven you have nice bird dogs you have proven that but do you feel that Black should be an AKC accepteted color & why ?

Here is another thought that just came to mind seems everyone thiks that bad bites cause health & eating problems.
There are many HEALTHY & FAT UNHEALTHY Bulldogs & Boxers out there plus a few other breeds that undershot is a standard of the breed.The Fat Unhealthy ones don't seem to have a problem eating.
Like I have said I have seen some terrible ugly bites on GSPS but none as bad as the undershot breeds & they seem to be doing fine haven't died out or off because of bites!! :lol:
Just saying that excuse just don'y cut it.
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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:59 am

Howie I said here in the USA in 1974 none around I know black was in Germany but I'm not going there again.White has been around too but white means pointers in this country.OH sorry no white in Germany they were drown maybe we should drown blacks in this country. :lol: MY VOTE NO NEVER NO WAY IN HECK!!!

Never seen a BAD BITE slow down a GSP either or stop them from finding birds!! :lol:

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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by JKP » Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:44 am

Before folks right off the standards of the various breeds, remember that many dogs in more than a few breeds are for all practical purposes interchangeable. The only thing that separates them is their physical differences...erase those and why bother? Take a look at this homepage http://www.gwpca.com/ ...the dog on the left was the conformation winner...the dog that came closest to being the standard on that day....the dog on the right won the Open and Am FT stakes. I think you should be able to tell that 2 dogs are from the same breed.

There are two kinds of breeders IMO....those that want it all including the physical expression of the breed...and those that are lazy and don't care.

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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by adogslife » Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:59 am

The majority of ,if not all, replys are from upland hunters giving the appearance that the need for a perfect bite is overlooked or not known. A weaker jaw is useless for a dog that needs to carry 10lbs +.
DKs are eliminated from breeding if they are missing certain teeth.
The Germans did not want white because it could not be camouflaged easily. White can not be bred out.
Each breeder must breed within their standard. AKC does allow black.

Breeding a dog purely on the basis that it is a good hunter can be detrimental to a breed.

Why the DK folk keep getting dragged into GSP debates is beyond me.

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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by AHGSP » Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:37 am

Hmmmmmmm......
Made you look didn't I? :lol:
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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by markj » Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:03 am

Ted, someone put a burr under yer saddle? :) You seem bitter and angry over something.

Cant a bad bite be bred out in like say 3 generations? As for the black dogs, well I do own one out of Ruger weltmeister, not much to look at but he finds the birds.

Breed a bad bite or a black dog? Neither, I aint breeding any more. I will buy a pup, train it to hunt my way and my terrain and forget about all the other stuff. Well I am doing this now.

I seen good dogs and bad dogs, out of good lines and farm pets. Its a crap shoot any time you get a pup. Key is how you train it and why.

I hope you can find some semblance of happiness and let the water run off yer back.
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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:24 am

Mark you could be right but I'm tired of some of these no it all youngsters that will look back just like us pathetic old folks have & realize just how little they new at that age & how much there still is to learn.
Water runs off my back pretty good never drowned yet!! :lol:

Howie the drown comment was sarcasm I get it from every one else but I can give as good as I get & sometimes better.
You all can call me what you want I BEND OVER FOR NO ONE!!

What I have been trying to say is I DON"T have the RIGHT to tell ANYONE what they can or can not breed & NO ONE has the right to tell me that either.
I could careless if they breed poka dot GSPS oh wait a minute they kinda do don't they. :lol:

I'm not trying to be anyone's friend I have friends VERY GOOD FRIENDS & we would all stand side beside & defend what we believe in if you don't like it TOUGH ----!

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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:20 am

Your right Dogslife AKC does allow Black among other non standard colors my mistake that's 2 now Howie.I'd better quit before I run out of fingers only have eight!! :lol:

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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by markj » Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:43 am

What I have been trying to say is I DON"T have the RIGHT to tell ANYONE what they can or can not breed & NO ONE has the right to tell me that either.
I got yer back on that one Ted. In America we have this little thingy called freedom and I will fight to the death to keep it as so. We left Europe to get away from that type of behaviour. Well my Great great grandpappy did.

Want to know about the real germany? in ww2 himmler had the whites killed off as it wasnt german or what he felt was german. My mom in law was born in east berlin. Age 12 she worked 12 to 14 hours a day as a seamstress got paid almost nothing. Ask her why she left and went west. Wifes relatives dont get to hunt look into what it takes to be able to hunt and shoot game in germany. Why the heck would any American want to go to that?

Last person tried to tell me how to do stuff their way, well lets say they wont be coming back any time soon. Whan I run someone off they stay run off :)
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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by adogslife » Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:58 am

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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by JKP » Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:58 am

What I have been trying to say is I DON"T have the RIGHT to tell ANYONE what they can or can not breed & NO ONE has the right to tell me that either.
I could careless if they breed poka dot GSPS oh wait a minute they kinda do don't they. :lol:

I'm not trying to be anyone's friend I have friends VERY GOOD FRIENDS & we would all stand side beside & defend what we believe in if you don't like it TOUGH
As long as you've told folks, that's fine. You're gonna breed the dogs that work best, regardless of all other issues. But, while you're at it, don't you think you should stop calling your dogs a certain breed....because you don't really care if they are or not :wink:

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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:39 pm

Ok no one has answered this question yet.Why do those of you who breed black regardless if it's a DQ or not feel it necessary that black should be an allowed color in the standard.
Can not blacks compete at every venue other then AKC dog shows & I don't believe there is a rule that says they can't be entered ,just would expect to be DQed if they were.
Seems alot don't think much of AKC dogs & some of the venues anyway so why is it important?
Don't gimmie they been around from the beginning & every one else allows it,so have bad bites & always will be does that mean the bite DQs should be allowed? Most venues if any don't DQ dogs with bad bites either.

I would not vote to allow bad bites anymore the black but I doubt they need my vote to pass it but just tell me why you think it's important.
I will never own black just don't like the color plus can't handle the sun & heat aswell .DO as you have been doing but don't say 1 DQ is different then another untill it's no longer a DQ. :D

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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by adogslife » Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:32 pm

Color is only a color. It has no bearing on health or function.

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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:30 pm

So why shouldn't we breed all colors?Why stop at black? So your saying a boxer or bulldog is unhealthy or can't bite or carry anything because of it's underbite? :?

Color is color that's important? Niether does a flesh colored nose or light eyes?

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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by markj » Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:43 pm

Ok no one has answered this question yet.Why do those of you who breed black regardless if it's a DQ or not feel it necessary that black should be an allowed color in the standard.
I bred my black dog, not because of his color. In all honesty I thought he was dark liver when I bought him. Wasnt his color I was after, it was his line which I feel isnt all that much so he wont be bred again. He throws sharp like he is, maybe from the german blood? not sure but he has opened up a few dogs and is kenneled alone now, let out alone etc.

Would I buy another black? doubt it.
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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:54 pm

Black & bites :lol: But color is color Whatever like the youngins say. :lol: No one has proved to me that bad bites cause health or CARRY ISSUES.

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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by adogslife » Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:41 pm

von zepp,

you're a breeder,right?

Stop while you're ahead, you're looking less and less knowledgable and experienced

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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by Steve007 » Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:12 pm

birddog1968 wrote:Tight cat paws on an AKC Ep are a DQ , work perty darn well in the field tho......
I found this be rather interesting, and it is news to me. It would seem they are going for some focus on early speed rather than total focus on endurance. Not my breed, but i am surprised. Nevertheless, you are in error. It is not a DQ, but a fault. Two very different things, See below for Standard.

Feet

Oval, with long, closely-set, arched toes, well-padded, and deep. Catfoot is a fault. Dewclaws on the forelegs may be removed.

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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by ACooper » Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:21 pm

If black wasn't recognized by every other registry/breed club in the world it would be a non issue. With bites again I bring up the dog with the rotten teeth that was a hard keeper due to a chronically sore mouth, I would say that is a health issue.

Black is wrong but pointer blood is okay? Lets really stir this up...

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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by ACooper » Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:24 pm

Vonzeppelinkennels wrote: No one has proved to me that bad bites cause health or CARRY ISSUES.
ACooper wrote:Growing up we had a britt with a terrible bite, by the time she was seven she had several teeth pulled as they were worn and causing infection and pain, it was difficult getting her to eat enough to keep weight on, for the rest of her life she was a hard keeper, and had to eat canned or softened food and a tooth pulled from time to time, maybe that is not a big deal to some folks, to me I would rather do my best to try and avoid it.

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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by birddog1968 » Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:30 pm

Steve007 wrote:
birddog1968 wrote:Tight cat paws on an AKC Ep are a DQ , work perty darn well in the field tho......
I found this be rather interesting, and it is news to me. It would seem they are going for some focus on early speed rather than total focus on endurance. Not my breed, but i am surprised. Nevertheless, you are in error. It is not a DQ, but a fault. Two very different things, See below for Standard.

Feet

Oval, with long, closely-set, arched toes, well-padded, and deep. Catfoot is a fault. Dewclaws on the forelegs may be removed.
Ok not a DQ, doesn't make any difference to the point i was making , which is AKC has lost all credibility in my mind....I am just glad for FDSB and
it's pretty obvious that performance is a better driver then someone writing a standard based on goodness knows what, which is why there is such
a large gap in an akc pointer and a pointer bred with no confirmation standard, only performance.

It's no wonder the Border Collie folks want nothing to do with AKC.....

I wonder who wrote the pointer standard....most likely someone with no concept of performance. Delmar liked nice tight catpaws so who would you agree with? :lol: Reminds me of the labrador issue and the fact these bench dogs couldn't hold a candle for a field bred lab who's confirmation is based on performance.
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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:49 pm

Dogslife YEP I'm a breeder & will continue to breed & your not to worry I don't breed DKs. :lol:

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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:54 pm

Andy that's one example how many breeds are their that what we call bad bites are good bites & I'm sure some have issues but not the Majority & they thrive.

Like I said a DQ is a DQ bites,color,nose color,light eyes,one & the same DQ's untill it's changed & hasn't been yet.I may even be DEAD before it happens!! :lol:

6th reason for no vote ADOGSLIFE to nullify his/her vote!!! :lol:

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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:37 pm

Lets just say I bred to Sonny which means if he is more pointer then GSP like some people say I did it legaly because he is REGISTERED with AKC & FDSB as a GSP with DNA on file with both Registries DNA only shows parentage so proves nothing either way !!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :P If he was still breedable I do it again corrected my bitches man conformation fault (front outurned feet) & added a little style,speed, & run.
& Endurace to run the Hr with power to spare!! :lol: :lol: :P

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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by Vonzeppelinkennels » Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:32 pm

Howie you talkin about D Rusty & he supposedly substitute sire?

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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by kninebirddog » Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:43 pm

AKC has nothing to do with the standards

It is the Breed clubs and the people who are allowed to get in charge of them

plus Field people are just as much to fault..If you won't clean your dogs up and present them to the judges then the judges are left with nothing but the puff and stuff that constantly gets put up...and PS there are some judges that will look for and put up the real field dog provided that the field dog is presented to them..find those judges and slowly but surely a real dual dog can be brought back to life

but if the hunters and trialers don't present their dogs then the split will happen
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Re: GSP DQ faults bad bites versus color

Post by birddog1968 » Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:01 pm

This from the breed club by laws.....
Constitution and Bylaws
of the American Pointer Club, Inc.
SECTION 2: The objects of the Club shall be:
(c) To urge members, breeders, and judges to accept the standard of the breed as approved by the American Kennel Club as the only standard of excellence by which Pointers shall be judged.


Also check out the officers, a distinct lack of Men in the organization.....and there i will stop before im labelled a sexist or a chauvinist pig :lol:
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