whats your priority, hunting dog or family dog??

[GUNDOGS]

after reading another thread and talking to a few friends its interesting how many different views there are when it comes to birddogs and them being trusted and what the priority of having them as a family VS hunting dog are..some posts have REALLY been eyeopening to say the least especially on what behaviors are tolerated in the home... i just cannot and would not keep a dog i cant 100% trust with every person or dog that lives or comes into my home so for me trust in being a family dog comes first and the BONUS is to have that same dog hunt and obey in the field..how about you, is it your priority to have a dog that is trustworthy as a family dog or is your priority a great hunting dog?? do any of you have a dog in your kennel or home you dont 100% trust around family and/or friends but keep it anyway??..my husband and i were introduced to a couple that had shorthairs a few years back and when we went over there the first time they told us not to approach their male dog (joker) who was in a kennel because he would definitley bite and did not like or tolerate ANYONE but them..this was strange to me as i just wouldnt have kept but to them he was a great hunting dog so they kept him for that reason, i had many different thoughts about that dog and the situation but it wasnt my life and they didnt ask my opinion so i didnt give it but the thought he was a kennel dog and kept for hunting only seemed unfair at the time, since then ive seen this alot more often then i thought existed and it seems that most of these dogs were in with the family then didnt work out and were then put out as kennel dogs so i wonder, how many of you have dogs like this that you just wouldnt trust enough to have in the house around people but keep them because they are great birddogs???..ruth

[mcbosco]

I didn't think the two were mutually exclusive. Have they become?

I suppose If people are willing to overlook and rationalize obvious structural faults when they breed just imagine what they do when it comes to temperament.

[windswept]

I'll start.
First priority for me is hunting dog. Now all I mean by that is if I had to give up one role or the other I would give up the family pet role LONG before I gave up the ability to hunt them. I would not tolerate a biter of any sort in my kennel or home. I want my dogs to get along well with people and with other dogs.
All of my dogs spend a fair amount of time in my living room but I will never forget that they are animals. While they are friendly and non aggressive I think it would be foolish to BLINDLY trust any large, high prey drive dog unsupervised with a small child.
Tom

[mcbosco]

I'll start.
First priority for me is hunting dog. Now all I mean by that is if I had to give up one role or the other I would give up the family pet role LONG before I gave up the ability to hunt them. I would not tolerate a biter of any sort in my kennel or home. I want my dogs to get along well with people and with other dogs.
All of my dogs spend a fair amount of time in my living room but I will never forget that they are animals. While they are friendly and non aggressive I think it would be foolish to BLINDLY trust any large, high prey drive dog unsupervised with a small child.
Tom

Must the two things be mutually exclusive??? I don't ever recall years ago anyone saying 'hey don't pet that setter he bites". I remember Labs running into kids but but never aggression. I remember somewhat independent shorthairs that weren't so warm with people but never anything dangerous.

Some people are breeding for things that are at odds with family life.

[Cajun Casey]

I have dogs whose only purpose is to repel with extreme prejudice anyone who does not belong on my property. One is a rescue German wirehair. Dogs are dogs. One of the characteristics they have been selected for over thousands of years is protectiveness. I trust a dog that exhibits outward defense aggression in this situation more than I trust one that slinks and withdraws or that makes overtures to strangers.

Last week I had to go to a friend's home while she was at work. She has a year old female from my family of dogs. The dog was in her garage pen and as soon as I set foot in the garage, she let me know in no uncertain terms that she thought I did not belong there. This dog has been everywhere around all kinds of people, but she was protecting her territory and her owner's territory. I let her sniff my hand, thumped her on her head a couple of times and she sat down. But, she was still wary and if I had started carrying stuff out, I believe she would have gone right back to alarm mode. She was doing her job.

[markj]

Never had a hunting dog that wasnt a family dog too. They go hand in hand IMHO.

[GUNDOGS]

I didn't think the two were mutually exclusive. Have they become?

of course i think its great if you can have both BUT i found sometimes you come across a dog and you just dont get both..theres the dog thats a machine in the field learns quickly on commands but cannot live in your home with your family because its too bold, wont calm down, growled at your kid or spouse..then theres the dog that seems slow on birds, maybe not much desire, hates water or might range too far or not enough all things with time and patience you MAY be able to work on and improve or may not BUT its a great family dog and works out well in your home.. is one acceptable to you over the other?? peoples opinions and comments about tolerating some aggressive signs or behaviors in their home because the dog is a great hunting dog tweeked my interest which to me says people may overlook certain issues IF their dog is a great hunting dog..if your dog would possibly bite or had given you reason to believe it would bite would you keep it but just keep it in a kennel away from visitors or family in order to still be able to hunt it or is unpredictable tendencies a deal breaker for you, just curious is all....ruth

[windswept]

I'll start.
First priority for me is hunting dog. Now all I mean by that is if I had to give up one role or the other I would give up the family pet role LONG before I gave up the ability to hunt them. I would not tolerate a biter of any sort in my kennel or home. I want my dogs to get along well with people and with other dogs.
All of my dogs spend a fair amount of time in my living room but I will never forget that they are animals. While they are friendly and non aggressive I think it would be foolish to BLINDLY trust any large, high prey drive dog unsupervised with a small child.
Tom

Must the two things be mutually exclusive??? I don't ever recall years ago anyone saying 'hey don't pet that setter he bites". I remember Labs running into kids but but never aggression. I remember somewhat independent shorthairs that weren't so warm with people but never anything dangerous.

Some people are breeding for things that are at odds with family life.

No, Sal, I am certain you can have both, I have 4 of them! Any dog that can't be both won't live with me! All I am saying is that when you start putting your dogs on the same plane as small children you are being foolish. Dogs are dogs, not furry children.

[Ruffshooter]

The way bird dogs are bred with the traits desired almost automatically make them both.

If I had to give up one in a bird dog it would be the pet part. But in realty that does not mean that the so called "kennel dog" does not have the exact same potential to be a house dog as well. They are in the Kennel because it makes sense for that owner.

[mcbosco]

I'll start.
First priority for me is hunting dog. Now all I mean by that is if I had to give up one role or the other I would give up the family pet role LONG before I gave up the ability to hunt them. I would not tolerate a biter of any sort in my kennel or home. I want my dogs to get along well with people and with other dogs.
All of my dogs spend a fair amount of time in my living room but I will never forget that they are animals. While they are friendly and non aggressive I think it would be foolish to BLINDLY trust any large, high prey drive dog unsupervised with a small child.
Tom

Must the two things be mutually exclusive??? I don't ever recall years ago anyone saying 'hey don't pet that setter he bites". I remember Labs running into kids but but never aggression. I remember somewhat independent shorthairs that weren't so warm with people but never anything dangerous.

Some people are breeding for things that are at odds with family life.

No, Sal, I am certain you can have both, I have 4 of them! Any dog that can't be both won't live with me! All I am saying is that when you start putting your dogs on the same plane as small children you are being foolish. Dogs are dogs, not furry children.

I agree with you 100% but what I am sensing out there, even in NJ, is that when performance ribbons and titles are at stake, to heck with tradition. That tradition being, at least for people living in the east, that sporting dogs are good looking family dogs too. Of the most popular breeds, at least to me, the Brittany people seem to understand this the best.

[Ruffshooter]

.when you start putting your dogs on the same plane as small children you are being foolish.

Hey a dog needs to get places too .Got to admit and laughing at my self right now I read this as a plane in the air.

[GUNDOGS]

Never had a hunting dog that wasnt a family dog too. They go hand in hand IMHO.

markj are you saying in your personal experience youve never come across a hunting dog that did not make a good family dog too or are you saying you wouldnt keep it unless it was both??...ruth

[GUNDOGS]

I have dogs whose only purpose is to repel with extreme prejudice anyone who does not belong on my property. One is a rescue German wirehair. Dogs are dogs. One of the characteristics they have been selected for over thousands of years is protectiveness. I trust a dog that exhibits outward defense aggression in this situation more than I trust one that slinks and withdraws or that makes overtures to strangers.

Last week I had to go to a friend's home while she was at work. She has a year old female from my family of dogs. The dog was in her garage pen and as soon as I set foot in the garage, she let me know in no uncertain terms that she thought I did not belong there. This dog has been everywhere around all kinds of people, but she was protecting her territory and her owner's territory. I let her sniff my hand, thumped her on her head a couple of times and she sat down. But, she was still wary and if I had started carrying stuff out, I believe she would have gone right back to alarm mode. She was doing her job.

totally agree that a defensive guard dog is more trustworthy then a fearful dog who ducks away with an insecure reaction, those are the ones that let you in and bite you on the way out ..i think its quite normal for most dogs to be protective of their home or territory but if you show your dogs your visitors are welcomed into your home or on your property do they trust and respect you enough to back off when you welcome the visitors?? also would you then without hesitation trust your dogs with the visitors or would you put them away while company is over because they may be unpredictable??...ruth

[slistoe]

Some dogs that don't make it a s a family dog for one family are an awesome family dog for the next family. Some dogs that are great hunting dogs for one person are not worth putting on the ground for the next person. So the question is moot. Everyone wants to have a dog that is a great hunter and a good companion but that dog is not necessarily the same dog for all people.

[mcbosco]

Some dogs that don't make it a s a family dog for one family are an awesome family dog for the next family. Some dogs that are great hunting dogs for one person are not worth putting on the ground for the next person. So the question is moot. Everyone wants to have a dog that is a great hunter and a good companion but that dog is not necessarily the same dog for all people.

That is true, but can you think of anyone that values a dog that bites a stranger because the stranger tried to pet it? Or one that grabs a kid by the face?

Some family situations don't lend themselves to a sporting dog because of schedules, open space, size of the dog, etc.

I think we are talking about whether a reliable temperament is at odds with hunting ability.

[slistoe]

There is a reason that the vast majority of the most popular breeds of pet dogs come from the Sporting Group. Those characteristics that lend a dog to being a great household companion are the same as those characteristics that make dogs excellent gunning companions. There is also a good reason why some of the Sporting Breeds are rather obscure as household pets

[3Britts]

The first thing that I look for in a hunting dog is the ability to work a field and find birds. Equally important is that dog's ability to intregrate into the family setting. After that, if it looks good, so much the better.
But to answer your question. I get hunting dogs that fit into the family. I kennel my dogs rarely. Like when I am dressed up and the backyard is muddy. I think you all know how that goes.

[markj]

markj are you saying in your personal experience youve never come across a hunting dog that did not make a good family dog too

Yep thats what I am saying. Every hunting dog I been around was a great family dog too.

[Cajun Casey]

There is a reason that the vast majority of the most popular breeds of pet dogs come from the Sporting Group. Those characteristics that lend a dog to being a great household companion are the same as those characteristics that make dogs excellent gunning companions. There is also a good reason why some of the Sporting Breeds are rather obscure as household pets

Bullchips. Only Labs and goldens are in the top ten and GSPs weigh in midway down if you count the top twenty AKC breeds.

Ruth, I put most of them up because even though they will accept my okaying strangers, the GSD and the pointer-GSP are thieves. When the tree trimmers were here for a week, I had to reconoiter for tools and gloves every morning. I also got weary of hearing, "Larree, that dog, she's gonna bite you," every time the shepherd went to stick her nose in the guy's pocket looking for snacks which she has learned treetrimmers carry. I put her inside and they put Larry up a tree and it was all good.

[troutbum13]

i just cannot and would not keep a dog i cant 100% trust with every person or dog that lives or comes into my home

I posted in the other thread about my daughter. It was the worst day of my life. But the single most important thing it taught me is that I will never trust any dog 100%. That was the mistake. My daughter is now 6 and I have a three year old son. I also have three gundogs. A 13 year old lab, a 2 year old WPG and a 6 month old DD. I do not tolerate any people sharpness in my dogs, and they are all great with my kids, and my kids love the dogs. BUT if my kids are in the back yard without an adult, my dogs are in the kennel. If we have other kids in the yard, the dogs are in the kennel. When my dogs come in the house it is one at a time, and I always know where the dog is.

The dog that bit my daughter was a dog that was trusted 100%. He had been around kids his whole life. He was a family dog first, and hunting dog second. But he was still a dog, and it only takes once.

I expect my dogs to be submissive to people and to be gentle with kids, but I don't trust them 100%

[troutbum13]

I'll start.
it would be foolish to BLINDLY trust any large, high prey drive dog unsupervised with a small child.
Tom

agreed

[Ryman Gun Dog]

GunDogs,
The Priority is to own a dog who can function as both, a True Dual dog, George Ryman developed his entire gun dog line on this premise, Holly at Tartana is doing a similar job today, with her Gordon Setter dogs. Dean Rasmussen breeds his Small Munsterlanders in the same manner.
However you must remember we are talking Ryman & Gordon Setter dogs here, some other dog breeds still have an agression test in Europe. All my dogs are people friendly and are well mannered around the home, even the Weimar and Small Munsterlander German Versatile dogs, both with guard instincts, function as Dual type dogs in my kennel. This is why choosing a breeder and breed line is so important, you do not want an over aggressive animal around your children. I will not tolerate an over aggressive dog in my home kennel, in fact I just sold a Irish (Red Setter) because he was over aggressive with my other gun dogs all the time, and did not fit into my home & kennel operation properly. The Irish (Red Setter) was not visious, he simply wanted to dominate all the other dogs, and I did not want my Weimar too eventually distroying him, the little guy was a good field dog, but would not conform to my home and kennel. He simply was not a high enough quality Setter to reside in my home kennel operation. He was not a dual type Setter, he simply was not layed back around the home and agressive to birds in the field & forest, although he was preforming well in the field, he was a flop in the home unless housed alone. There is a great deal to consider when purchasing a gun dog that you want to be part of your family, some people misunderstand the meaning of Dual dogs, they have the mistaken idea that it means the dogs are Champions in both the field and Show. A true Dual type dog, is beautiful to the eye, meets breed standard, is layed back in the home, and is able to be a high quality gun dog in the field & forest. Sometimes they even show these dog. No Setter dog should ever be aggressive to a human especially a child, heck George had advertisments with cats sleeping on his Ryman Gun dogs backs, as they layed on his living room floor, if the Setter dog is over aggressive to humans the dog is flawed genetically, these once in a blue moon dogs were culled by George Ryman on sight.
RGD/Dave

[proudag08]

The way I see it is this:

You do your research before you buy a dog, not after the dog you bought shows some issues. I can say that because I did my research. You research what is important to you. The whole time I was asking questions before I got my pup everyone told me "look for a breeding pair that has what you want and go with that one". They did not say "go get a breding pair that hunts as well as is a good family dog then go with that one, oh and make sure the parents ran trials too". They left that part up to me. I wanted a dog that would be a family pet, easy to train, and hunt when I wanted him to. So thats what I went looking for.

I find it hard to believe that with the amount of research that is put into finding a pup/ dog that these traits are a suprise when they come out. I understand a grown dog being the product of how he was raised, but then again, if you asked the right questions, you would know these things. There is so much information avaialabe (namely this site), how could anyone, doing their fair share of research, be suprised at the appearance of an unexpected trait.

All I'm trying to say is that if you want both a hunting dog and a family dog, get a pup from a mom and dad that are both hunting and family dogs, then raise them to be both a hunting and a family dog.

[troutbum13]

GunDogs,
However you must remember we are talking Ryman & Gordon Setter dogs here, some other dog breeds still have an agression test in Europe.

I think these threads have a lot of good discussion. I don't personally agree that the euro systems breed dogs that have more people sharpness.

Have you ever had a good bird dog that did not want to naturally catch and dispatch animals, be it pigeons, mice, game-birds or cats? I think that is what we all call prey drive.

Why is it reasonable to expect a setter to be driven to catch/kill birds and yet remain gentle with people but remains unreasonable to think a german dog can make the same distinction between fur and people??

I know the breeder of my DD bred first and foremost for temperament and would not tolerate a people-sharp dog. And it shows in his dogs.

Do others really think euro/versatile breeds put-out more biters?

[helpful_cub]

I've been working a lot with SoCal GSP Rescue. As far as I know, I'm the only hunter in the group so I end up fielding the questions from the new guys looking to get their first gun dog. From the Rescue's perspective all dogs are family dogs first. They're not adopting out hunters, they're finding forever homes for family dogs. If the dog just happens to hunt, then good for you. "Save the dog, get them healthy and find them a forever home" is the motto of all Rescues.

Now with all of that said, from stand point, my dog doesn't hunt all the time. He spends probably 90% of his time with me as a family dog so that's the highest priority. We do go out and hunt a lot, but realistically, we'd have a lot of conflicts in the house is he wasn't well behaved. There's a time and a place for huge amounts of energy and there are times for calm. With that said, most, if not all failures on his part as a family dog are my fault. Either I didn't train him enough so he knows better or I haven't taken him out for a good run in a long while and he's just acting out of frustration of having too much energy and nowhere to spend it. That's just part of having a high energy breed.

Plus you can’t hunt all the time. The season does eventually end. In California there’s a long period where nothing worth hunting is open. So we go hiking or visit the dog park or other none hunting activities. These are all good times for him to socialize and “play nice” with other dogs and people. I only have one hunting dog, so being versatile (pointing, retrieving, tracking, field and family) is the best combination for me.

[mcbosco]

GunDogs,
However you must remember we are talking Ryman & Gordon Setter dogs here, some other dog breeds still have an agression test in Europe.

I think these threads have a lot of good discussion. I don't personally agree that the euro systems breed dogs that have more people sharpness.

Have you ever had a good bird dog that did not want to naturally catch and dispatch animals, be it pigeons, mice, game-birds or cats? I think that is what we all call prey drive.

Why is it reasonable to expect a setter to be driven to catch/kill birds and yet remain gentle with people but remains unreasonable to think a german dog can make the same distinction between fur and people??

I know the breeder of my DD bred first and foremost for temperament and would not tolerate a people-sharp dog. And it shows in his dogs.

Do others really think euro/versatile breeds put-out more biters?

The Setters Dave is referring to were or are renowned for their docile temperaments, looks and ability in one package. So yes, I would say statistically the euro dogs are a bit sharper, not all the breeds but some, to what he is talking about.

Dave is reflecting on a temperament and style you see rarely these days and it was still very regional years back. My dog is about as reliable with kids as they come, equal to any Setter, but his reaction to fur is typically Euro and not Setter-like at all.

[GUNDOGS]

i just cannot and would not keep a dog i cant 100% trust with every person or dog that lives or comes into my home

I posted in the other thread about my daughter. It was the worst day of my life. But the single most important thing it taught me is that I will never trust any dog 100%. That was the mistake. My daughter is now 6 and I have a three year old son. I also have three gundogs. A 13 year old lab, a 2 year old WPG and a 6 month old DD. I do not tolerate any people sharpness in my dogs, and they are all great with my kids, and my kids love the dogs. BUT if my kids are in the back yard without an adult, my dogs are in the kennel. If we have other kids in the yard, the dogs are in the kennel. When my dogs come in the house it is one at a time, and I always know where the dog is.

The dog that bit my daughter was a dog that was trusted 100%. He had been around kids his whole life. He was a family dog first, and hunting dog second. But he was still a dog, and it only takes once.

I expect my dogs to be submissive to people and to be gentle with kids, but I don't trust them 100%

VERY true, i definitely agree with your comment and what happened to your daughter is unimaginable that must have been absolutley the worst day of your life..maybe i should have said it better, what i mean is i wont keep a dog that in my mind i have ANY reason not to trust or that i believe would hurt someone in my home or even when we are out for that matter..i would not ignore or tolerate ANY warning signs of aggression from a dog..i only have dogs that i do trust but i also keep in mind they are dogs at all times, i have to have trust the dogs i have to a realistic extent because if i didnt trust them i just couldnt and wouldnt have them..i have to trust that if my daughter who is 4 years old falls and knocks into them they wont attack her and i watch these things to the best of my ability to ensure this is the kind of dog i have, i have to trust that if my kids or their friends go to get a ball to throw for my dog they wont get bit because the dog thinks its "hers or his" ball..like you, i never leave my dogs alone with my kids or with visitors and im always keeping a watchful eye..all precautions are taken and considered every day in my house especially with 5 kids, their friends and then our friends that come over with their birddogs quite often for training days..i dont believe anyone is truly safe from a dog bite thats why my kids have learned from day 1 how to treat an animal as they are just that, animals BUT i can honestly say i dont have and wont keep a dog that exhibits signs or red flags in anyway that an issue may occur, growling at us, obsessive or possessive behavior is a deal breaker for me, maybe not for everyone as all situations are different but definitely for me i cant and wont tolerate a dog that i cannot trust to be a family dog, its my priority..thanks for the posts and for sharing your experience it has helped many people be more cautious indeed ....ruth

[Ryman Gun Dog]

PD08,
What you say is true, investigating the breed line is definitely a requirement for prospective owners. However some owners fail to do their home work before purchasing an animal, no matter the breed. This is why we developed a breeders list for our clients to choose high quality Grouse dogs from, in fact if the prospective owner wants to purchase a dog from a breeder not on our list, we now recommend they have that breeder train their dog. To us its not about the money, its about the repetative proven genetics, that makes gun dogs what they are. Working with breeders who guarantee for temperment and hunting ability, along with health
requirements for a 5-10 year period, allows these breeders to supply high quality gun dogs. Most of these dogs do cost some money, line testing for HD, Eyes and deafness
costs serious money today. If you want a trained high quality dual type dog today, it is an investment. The owners we work with end up doing their home work because of the advise we give freely. They acquire a gun dog who becomes part of their family, housed with them and cared for by them, we do not supply Grouse dogs who
are not family members, from the breeders we work with. We train both the Grouse dogs and owners here, I am not 25 years old any more, and last year had a major heart attack, we take no clients from the internet, however we do give advise freely and have acquired some real nice friends from participating on a couple forums.
I have been Grouse hunting for 50 years now and training gun dogs for 30 plus, they say Grouse hunting is becoming a sport of the past, each year however more young men and ladies show up at my mountain home looking to learn how to handle their gun dogs and Grouse hunt, its fun watching these younger people become part of the upland shooting life style, it keeps me young also.
RGD/Dave

[gonehuntin']

It's a 50-50 proposition in our house. The dog HAS to be an EXCELLENT hunting dog, but it also has to be an EXCELLENT family dog. We don't keep them around long if it's a 50 percenter.

[JKP]

The answer is kind of simple....95% of owners will hunt MAXIMUM 30-40 days/yr...most less. So the rest of the year the dog has to be liveable, whether its is in the house of the kennel. Dogs that are nervous, yappy, destructive, or aggressive in anyway are not going to be as enjoyable the rest of the year. There is no reason you should have to sacrifice livability for performance...you can have them both.

[GUNDOGS]

The answer is kind of simple....95% of owners will hunt MAXIMUM 30-40 days/yr...most less. So the rest of the year the dog has to be liveable, whether its is in the house of the kennel. Dogs that are nervous, yappy, destructive, or aggressive in anyway are not going to be as enjoyable the rest of the year. There is no reason you should have to sacrifice livability for performance...you can have them both.

lets say your dog is a great hunting dog, trial dog or test dog and youve spent loads of money on getting him right where you want him to hunt and then he growls and shows his teeth as a warning to your spouse when they are correcting him, is that a deal breaker for you or do you try to correct the behavior and move forward?? why i wonder this is because in talking to friends with birddogs that are also family dogs and reading a few posts lately i find it interesting what people will tolerate or try to correct if they have a great hunting, testing and or trialing dog, just what ive observed but may be wrong, interesting to hear peoples opinions..also i was thinking of a book i read a while back about an older man who owned a birddog who was VERY aggressive with people and not tolerable of other dogs but was a hunting machine and could teach a pup to hunt with no effort by example so the older man kept him around as one of his "best birddogs ever", one day his grandson got curious and went to try to be friends with the dog although warned many times to stay away and the dog tried to rip him to shreds threw the kennel, grandpa still kept the dog despite this and told his family the dog wasnt going anywhere so stay away from him..cant remember the name of that book but it was a good read and had lessons in it i just dont remember what they were ..ruth

[Winchey]

Depends who I liked better, the dog or spouse

[GUNDOGS]

Depends who I liked better, the dog or spouse

[JKP]

lets say your dog is a great hunting dog, trial dog or test dog and youve spent loads of money on getting him right where you want him to hunt and then he growls and shows his teeth as a warning to your spouse when they are correcting him, is that a deal breaker for you or do you try to correct the behavior and move forward??

A dog that has been well raised, socialized, and trained properly shouldn't bare its teeth, growl, rumble at family members....IMO, such a dog has a problem with the "central wiring". Young dogs often test you but once the test has been quashed and the pup put in his place, it shouldn't be a recurring problem. A dog that shows teeth, rumbles when corrected, etc....is an unconfident dog, with temperament issues. Some can become good hunting dogs/kennel dogs but trusting them as house dogs is always a concern. They should definitely not be used for breeding. These kinds of traits are inherited and become someone else's problem when we sell pups out of such dogs.

Yeah, for me that would be a deal breaker. No dog is worth one stitch on my wife's or child's face...and even if the liability is in a runway, the dog remains a liability. Legally, you can't sell such dogs...because even disclosure can't shield you from prosecution if the dog decides to remove Grandma's face. Year's ago I was doing the pointing dog demo at a Sportsmen's show in NJ. A woman came up to me and asked if she could pet my dog. Of course I said yes, and 10 minutes later she had her arms around my dog and was sobbing...uncontrollably. Her husband explained that they had had a dog of the same breed that had growled and snapped as a pup. They thought they could fix it til the dog attacked a grandparent.

Without seeing your dog, I would go the safe route. There are too many dogs that are mentally sound and stable...start over...we all have.

[GUNDOGS]

lets say your dog is a great hunting dog, trial dog or test dog and youve spent loads of money on getting him right where you want him to hunt and then he growls and shows his teeth as a warning to your spouse when they are correcting him, is that a deal breaker for you or do you try to correct the behavior and move forward??

A dog that has been well raised, socialized, and trained properly shouldn't bare its teeth, growl, rumble at family members....IMO, such a dog has a problem with the "central wiring". Young dogs often test you but once the test has been quashed and the pup put in his place, it shouldn't be a recurring problem. A dog that shows teeth, rumbles when corrected, etc....is an unconfident dog, with temperament issues. Some can become good hunting dogs/kennel dogs but trusting them as house dogs is always a concern. They should definitely not be used for breeding. These kinds of traits are inherited and become someone else's problem when we sell pups out of such dogs.

Yeah, for me that would be a deal breaker. No dog is worth one stitch on my wife's or child's face...and even if the liability is in a runway, the dog remains a liability. Legally, you can't sell such dogs...because even disclosure can't shield you from prosecution if the dog decides to remove Grandma's face. Year's ago I was doing the pointing dog demo at a Sportsmen's show in NJ. A woman came up to me and asked if she could pet my dog. Of course I said yes, and 10 minutes later she had her arms around my dog and was sobbing...uncontrollably. Her husband explained that they had had a dog of the same breed that had growled and snapped as a pup. They thought they could fix it til the dog attacked a grandparent.

Without seeing your dog, I would go the safe route. There are too many dogs that are mentally sound and stable...start over...we all have.

i agree with all the above ..ruth

[isonychia]

My next dog is going to live outside after he is house broken, still get all of the appropriate socialization, etc. Still haven't decided whether or not to let him in during the day. My thing is, I've gotten too attached to my first dog (my brittany) and worry about him a little too much. I want my future dogs to be work dogs that can behave around social conditions just like a well broken house dog, yet not be such an emotional burden if he/she got injured/killed. Not sure if this is possible. However, I will never live without a companion/hunting dog for as long as I live if I can help it. 1 in the house, 4 outside, and 5 hunting seems perfect to me. I really want to take my brit chukar hunting, but I feel like a lot of those dogs take some serious falls.

[GUNDOGS]

My next dog is going to live outside after he is house broken, still get all of the appropriate socialization, etc. Still haven't decided whether or not to let him in during the day. My thing is, I've gotten too attached to my first dog (my brittany) and worry about him a little too much. I want my future dogs to be work dogs that can behave around social conditions just like a well broken house dog, yet not be such an emotional burden if he/she got injured/killed. Not sure if this is possible. However, I will never live without a companion/hunting dog for as long as I live if I can help it. 1 in the house, 4 outside, and 5 hunting seems perfect to me. I really want to take my brit chukar hunting, but I feel like a lot of those dogs take some serious falls.

yes its amazing how quickly they take over your heart indeed..its funny how kennel dogs can quickly become house dogs and hate being outside in the cold or rain..we got our shorthair about 3 weeks ago and he was never in a house, he was only about 9 weeks old when we got him but he had been kept outside and when we brought him in our home, gave him a crate with a blanket and some toys and bones he couldnt pee and run to the door quick enough to get back in ...ruth

[ultracarry]

I think a hunting dog would be worthless if it didn't hunt.... so that's my priority. If you buy a working breed you should expect that you get a working breed. If you want a pet, they make these small dogs that don't shed and warm your feet.

The family dogs won't get to experience any of my skills at cutting them open to save on vet bills....(wife won't let me) . My hunting dog can be cut open any time to remove fox tails or sticks that got stuck.

If you buy a shorthair and don't expect it to act out if you don't run them (really run not just half arse it), not expect the dog to jump, make noise, chew things (only expensive stuff or things you really needed), and ignore ypu sometimes then you should have done more research on the breed. It's not responsible to buy the dog and not take 100% responsibility for the dog even if you have to put a bullet in it to solve the problem. People want a turn key dog and don't expect it to be a dog.

[isonychia]

I think a hunting dog would be worthless if it didn't hunt.... so that's my priority. If you buy a working breed you should expect that you get a working breed. If you want a pet, they make these small dogs that don't shed and warm your feet.

The family dogs won't get to experience any of my skills at cutting them open to save on vet bills....(wife won't let me) . My hunting dog can be cut open any time to remove fox tails or sticks that got stuck.

If you buy a shorthair and don't expect it to act out if you don't run them (really run not just half arse it), not expect the dog to jump, make noise, chew things (only expensive stuff or things you really needed), and ignore ypu sometimes then you should have done more research on the breed. It's not responsible to buy the dog and not take 100% responsibility for the dog even if you have to put a bullet in it to solve the problem. People want a turn key dog and don't expect it to be a dog.

Wow I hope you used to be a vet...

[ultracarry]

Nope... had to go to the vet the next day and get antibiotics.... won't get those at the vet any more either. Our vets in so cal seem to be very expensive. I can cut my hand open and get something out so why not the dog? Ps they sell scalpels at the vet supply place near you.

[orbirdhunter]

I'm a 50/50 guy also....My dogs are hunting dogs about 30-35 days a year give or take, then they are companions/pets the rest of the year....so they need to do both jobs well. Personally i would not own, or keep a dog that is not a good family dog and a good hunting dog. And yes i have sent a few dogs down the road that didn't fit the bill....
Ironically this has led me to the european/versatile breeds as my dogs of choice, great hunting abilities along with a mature stable mindset equals a great dog on both sides of the fence..

[displaced_texan]

Some dogs that don't make it a s a family dog for one family are an awesome family dog for the next family. Some dogs that are great hunting dogs for one person are not worth putting on the ground for the next person. So the question is moot. Everyone wants to have a dog that is a great hunter and a good companion but that dog is not necessarily the same dog for all people.

I was actually thinking the same thing... Stuff like that is to subjective...

My mother can't stand one of my Pointers in her house, he's in mine almost all the time, and he doesn't bother me a bit...

[kninebirddog]

I do not tolerate a dog baring their teeth at me

I do not tolerate dogs in the bed


and never will my dogs ever bear arms


But then this is what it should really be about

[isonychia]

I do not tolerate a dog baring their teeth at me

I do not tolerate dogs in the bed


and never will my dogs ever bear arms


But then this is what it should really be about

Its hard not to let them in your bed... I made it about a year until I finally broke, I guess a year is good enough for kennel time independence

[GUNDOGS]

I think a hunting dog would be worthless if it didn't hunt.... so that's my priority. If you buy a working breed you should expect that you get a working breed. If you want a pet, they make these small dogs that don't shed and warm your feet.

The family dogs won't get to experience any of my skills at cutting them open to save on vet bills....(wife won't let me) . My hunting dog can be cut open any time to remove fox tails or sticks that got stuck.

If you buy a shorthair and don't expect it to act out if you don't run them (really run not just half arse it), not expect the dog to jump, make noise, chew things (only expensive stuff or things you really needed), and ignore ypu sometimes then you should have done more research on the breed. It's not responsible to buy the dog and not take 100% responsibility for the dog even if you have to put a bullet in it to solve the problem. People want a turn key dog and don't expect it to be a dog.

Yes i agree there are many quirks shorthairs have and anyone who has been around enough of them will notice its more so in certain bloodlines, i think cajun casey can attest to that lol, BUT how do you feel about a great hunting dog that has shown some aggression issues, say kimber after all the money and time youve put into her trialing, bit your wife in the hand while you were standing right there?? is that a deal breaker for you no matter how great she is in the field or would you work threw that by correcting it and moving forward in her training?? im curious as to how many people accept aggressive or unpredictable non trustworthy dogs if they are a great hunting dog, what is a deal breaker for you or is their one??...also i cant imagine if your dog was really sick you wouldnt go to the vet and allow her to die because its expensive especially when you invest so much money in her trialing or are you talking about not going to the vet for every little thing, it has to be serious for you to go is what you are saying??...ruth

[GUNDOGS]

Some dogs that don't make it a s a family dog for one family are an awesome family dog for the next family. Some dogs that are great hunting dogs for one person are not worth putting on the ground for the next person. So the question is moot. Everyone wants to have a dog that is a great hunter and a good companion but that dog is not necessarily the same dog for all people.

I was actually thinking the same thing... Stuff like that is to subjective...

My mother can't stand one of my Pointers in her house, he's in mine almost all the time, and he doesn't bother me a bit...

very very true, last spring my cousins weim had bleeding internally and had to be put to sleep to end her suffering it was terrible and just devastating to her kids so i gave her a rescue dog (a pointer) i had at the time and that dog barks all the time, not at strangers, not aggressively in anyway BUT to communicate, it sits there and stares at you and barks and jumps back after it brings you a toy or if its hungry ect and its very loud and i watch my cousin sit there and not be bothered by it at all where as im like QUIET and have a headache by the time i leave there the dog makes up for it in how gentle it is and loving with her kids, it couldnt be a better dog for children and we took it out in the field on some birds a few times and it obeys perfectly..i really like that dog, except for the bark talk ..ruth

[GUNDOGS]

I do not tolerate a dog baring their teeth at me

I do not tolerate dogs in the bed


and never will my dogs ever bear arms


But then this is what it should really be about

Its hard not to let them in your bed... I made it about a year until I finally broke, I guess a year is good enough for kennel time independence

mine arent allowed on the furniture or on the beds, they all have dog beds and harley and mya have crates but tyson doesnt have a crate, i just never used one with him..they arent allowed in any of the bedrooms either..i have a big house, 3 floors, 5 bedrooms, 2 living rooms, a game room, large storage room, a den, 3 bathrooms a kitchen and dining area and my dogs can go anywhere but the bedrooms, they will stop at the doorway if you walk into one of the bedrooms and wait for you, if you are staying in the room and say GO they will go..i started this because my one daughters allergies to hair and dander was pretty bad, not so much anymore and i think the dogs not being allowed in her sleeping space has helped her not be so stuffed up by morning..harley is only 3 months so he mainly stays in the kitchen which has baby gates up because i rescue dogs and they are not allowed out of that area when they are here because i have to be able to see them at ALL times since i dont know them well, they go in a crate if i cant watch them which isnt often but my kitchen and dining area is 12 feet by 31 feet so they have lots of space to be in and harley is still going threw the I WILL DESTROY YOUR CHRISTMAS TREE phase so he is limited to where he can wonder for right now ...love the pics by the way knine ...ruth

QUESTION: do you guys that let your dogs sleep in your beds think "some" dogs may become dominate by that being allowed?? ive always been told and read never to allow them to be on your bed so they know their "place", what do you think??

[jimbo&rooster]

I grew up with coyote hounds and coon hounds that didn't even know their names. we fed them and we hunted them. These dogs were tough as nails and had a job to do. That is always the way i will look at working dogs.

When I got into bird dogs i had my first GSP and my lab in the house and they were great family dogs for me and my wife.... my lab would even let my nephew (5yo now) sleep on her on the floor. My GSP on the other hand would not let my nephew near him and would get a down deep growl when the kid/s came around. As a result he now lives outside in the kennel, because I dont trust him around kids. He has never bit anyone but im not willing to test his limits.

All of my dogs were aquired to be bird dogs first and family dogs second. I have been fortunate that 3 of 4 have been great with kids, but I would never give a "aggressive" or even grumpy dog to someone else and just pass off the problem.

Every one goes back to "what if your dog bit someone...?" If any of my dogs ever bit someone out of pure aggression or dominance it would be over...... But as a responsible owner it is our responsibility to not allow those situations to come up. We all know our dogs, we know what their personality is. I know that Rooster is uncomfortable around kids in the house/yard I dont put him in that situation. I also know that his discomfort with kids is due to a lack of socialization with kids when he was a puppy thats my fault, but I do what it takes to keep a safe and happy home.

I guess to answer the original question when I buy a bird dog its first job is to be a bird dog and its second job is to be a pet.

JIm

[slistoe]

QUESTION: do you guys that let your dogs sleep in your beds think "some" dogs may become dominate by that being allowed?? ive always been told and read never to allow them to be on your bed so they know their "place", what do you think??

I think that a dog could be allowed on the bed in my place and will never have a risk of being dominant and that very same dog could be allowed on the bed at someone elses place and would very much feel it is the dominant one. Some people need strict rules to help them in establishing dominance.

[GUNDOGS]

I grew up with coyote hounds and coon hounds that didn't even know their names. we fed them and we hunted them. These dogs were tough as nails and had a job to do. That is always the way i will look at working dogs.

When I got into bird dogs i had my first GSP and my lab in the house and they were great family dogs for me and my wife.... my lab would even let my nephew (5yo now) sleep on her on the floor. My GSP on the other hand would not let my nephew near him and would get a down deep growl when the kid/s came around. As a result he now lives outside in the kennel, because I dont trust him around kids. He has never bit anyone but im not willing to test his limits.

All of my dogs were aquired to be bird dogs first and family dogs second. I have been fortunate that 3 of 4 have been great with kids, but I would never give a "aggressive" or even grumpy dog to someone else and just pass off the problem.

Every one goes back to "what if your dog bit someone...?" If any of my dogs ever bit someone out of pure aggression or dominance it would be over...... But as a responsible owner it is our responsibility to not allow those situations to come up. We all know our dogs, we know what their personality is. I know that Rooster is uncomfortable around kids in the house/yard I dont put him in that situation. I also know that his discomfort with kids is due to a lack of socialization with kids when he was a puppy thats my fault, but I do what it takes to keep a safe and happy home.

I guess to answer the original question when I buy a bird dog its first job is to be a bird dog and its second job is to be a pet.

JIm

I agree, if you watch your dogs they usually, if not always, give some sort of warning that they will bite be it out of fear, dominance or possessive behavior and if we see ANY of those signs its our obligation to make a decision based on our own individual situation and live with the consequence to our decision..i have found your solution to a dog you dont trust with kids by putting it in a kennel to be very common when discussing all of this with people ive even been told by a few people they wish they would have had a kennel area cause theres some dogs they would really liked to have kept for hunting but not have around children..this children intolerance has seemed to be most common in GSP'S have you noticed that to be true of all the birddogs??..almost every person i know or have talked to who has 3, 4, 5 or more dogs has at least 1 that they say they keep in a kennel away from kids because the dog is otherwise a great dog...ruth