An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:51 am

I don't know, rename the thead if you like. But the question came up as to whether a dog is MORE or less special that a person. In another thread it is jumping into animal rights's territory, but I will share my opinion.

All life on this earth has value. Everything has a role to play, and a part to fill. I prefer a more Native American view here. Respect all the creatures and plants. They can and do have things to teach us. Prey animals are fast and agile, attentive and alert. Predators are often quite, stealthy, and patient. A stupid tick is not worth much perhaps, but it is persistant, at the very least, we can learn that from it. The ant is a master of community cooperation. The dog is so so many things the list would go out the door. Most everyone here knows the list! Respect and value does not have to oppose killing. I respect and value a deer. Fast, agile, and a muture buck is a stunning sight to enjoy. But I still eat them. In fact, I repesct them in part BECAUSE I eat them. Hunting is a challenge, and that in itself gives a value to the dinner, and the lessons learned from both our own prey, and the predators we can learn from.
I am not trying to go all, metaphysical here,

but you can have both. You can have an equal (but NOT identical) respect and value for a deer, a dog, or a friend. It does not mean that you think they are actually the same animal, but that they have equal value in their own way. Sometimes part of that way is, helping us hunt, sharing our family, and sometimes that is feeding us for another day. Part of my love and respect for my children/family might mean that I have to protect them from an animal that is trying to hurt them. It might even be an animal that I love. But repect is not love, and I can still respect the strengths, and learn from the weaknesses that caused me to step in and kill one thing, to save another. Be it protection or hunger or both, it is not contingent on ENOUGH respect or value. Merely the correctly placed value.
Hope that my diversion is sensible, but if you are going to jump on this topic, do it here. I'm no moderator, just sticking my nose in where it might get chopped off

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:57 am

Job 12: 7-10, "Ask the birds, ask the beasts and they will teach you."

Post by **topher40** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:59 am

I look at a dog, horse, cat, calf, etc. all the same way I look at a truck. When I start dumping to much money into them I have to let them go. What is the actual monetary value? I dont know, its different with every animal. Now my family has no monetary value placed. Believe it or not, humans are more important than an animal.

markj · Post by **markj** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:13 am

All life on this earth has value

I agree. All animalls are here to be tasty treats or work for us in some way. You can kill them and eat them and still honor their life here. Its all in the way it is done.

But no animal and no human would ever take precedense over my kids. They always come first, before my needs, before my wifes needs, they are second for me. God is first, family second, me third. From the book by Gale Sayers "I am third" got a signed copy of that one last time he was in Dads place, they were friends.

Ruffshooter · Post by **Ruffshooter** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:15 am

In all reality, 97% of people have more value than animals. But I can think of a few that will take second place to my dogs maybe not even finish. If you know what I mean.

Post by **Sharon** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:24 am

markj wrote:
All life on this earth has value
I agree. All animalls are here to be tasty treats or work for us in some way. You can kill them and eat them and still honor their life here. Its all in the way it is done.

But no animal and no human would ever take precedense over my kids. They always come first, before my needs, before my wifes needs, they are second for me. God is first, family second, me third. From the book by Gale Sayers "I am third" got a signed copy of that one last time he was in Dads place, they were friends.

Well said.

windswept · Post by **windswept** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:31 am

markj wrote:
All life on this earth has value
I agree. All animalls are here to be tasty treats or work for us in some way. You can kill them and eat them and still honor their life here. Its all in the way it is done.

But no animal and no human would ever take precedense over my kids. They always come first, before my needs, before my wifes needs, they are second for me. God is first, family second, me third. From the book by Gale Sayers "I am third" got a signed copy of that one last time he was in Dads place, they were friends.

Perfect!

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:34 am

Nothing really has a role to play or a part to fill. Value and meaning are man made. People keep searching for "meaning" and it doesn't exist. We are no more special than a rock. More complex, more ineteresting yes, we have done some cool stuff. People value different things differently and since it is a man made concept, the value they have is what each individual individually places on them.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:37 am

Winchey wrote:Nothing really has a role to play or a part to fill. Value and meaning are man made. People keep searching for "meaning" and it doesn't exist. We are no more special than a rock. More complex, more ineteresting yes, we have done some cool stuff. People value different things differently and since it is a man made concept, the value they have is what each individual individually places on them.

Are you French?

AzDoggin · Post by **AzDoggin** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:38 am

Ruffshooter wrote:In all reality, 97% of people have more value than animals. But I can think of a few that will take second place to my dogs maybe not even finish. If you know what I mean.

I absolutely know what you mean and bump your 97% to 95%

markj · Post by **markj** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:41 am

But I can think of a few that will take second place to my dogs maybe not even finish. If you know what I mean.

Unfortunatly I do know what you mean and I hate to admit it but yes there are some humans act worse than any animal. Best to stay away from them.

Mcbosco you crack me up

good comeback.

Rocks will never send another rock to the moon, nor can a rock build a car, fix a water fawcett, well you get the jist dont you?

Ryman Gun Dog · Post by **Ryman Gun Dog** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:41 am

Mountaindog,
Although I have been raised to respect all life, and dogs are treated as part of the family here at my place, dogs are property and do not have equal rights as a human. That being said the dog handlers in the US Army had a saying about this old Warrant Officer, and had placed the sign over the entrance to our training facility. Mistreating a fellow soldier in this facility, especially a dog, might endanger the abusers well being. God gave us dominion over all other animals here his earth, he also gave us dogs, to teach us how he actually loves. A dogs ethical value goes way beyond money, mistreating Gods creatures is to mistreat God himself.
RGD/Dave

Post by **slistoe** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:42 am

Dogs is dogs. People is people. Animals aren't plants.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:48 am

"Rocks will never send another rock to the moon, nor can a rock build a car, fix a water fawcett, well you get the jist dont you?

"

And dog's nor anything else cares about any of that stuff lol, it is only important to us.

And no Bosco, not French.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:53 am

Winchey wrote:"Rocks will never send another rock to the moon, nor can a rock build a car, fix a water fawcett, well you get the jist dont you? "

And dog's nor anything else cares about any of that stuff lol, it is only important to us.

And no Bosco, not French.

just joking

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:55 am

Ryman Gun Dog wrote:Mountaindog,
Although I have been raised to respect all life, and dogs are treated as part of the family here at my place, dogs are property and do not have equal rights as a human. That being said the dog handlers in the US Army had a saying about this old Warrant Officer, and had placed the sign over the entrance to our training facility. Mistreating a fellow soldier in this facility, especially a dog, might endanger the abusers well being. God gave us dominion over all other animals here his earth, he also gave us dogs, to teach us how he actually loves. A dogs ethical value goes way beyond money, mistreating Gods creatures is to mistreat God himself.
RGD/Dave

Dave I am glad you signed on. There is a thread about whether sound temperament and hunting ability can go together. A traditional setter man from PA should know a thing or two about that.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:55 am

I don't believe animal's or plants have equal "rights" and never said that. I do believe they all have value - and as I stated Sometimes that value is to help us, and sometimes it is to feed us. As I stated

But some people quickly confuse the two, and thus they become animal rights activists trying to tie value, love, respect, and "rights" into the same thing.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:58 am

Ryman Gun Dog wrote:Mountaindog,
Although I have been raised to respect all life, and dogs are treated as part of the family here at my place, dogs are property and do not have equal rights as a human. That being said the dog handlers in the US Army had a saying about this old Warrant Officer, and had placed the sign over the entrance to our training facility. Mistreating a fellow soldier in this facility, especially a dog, might endanger the abusers well being. God gave us dominion over all other animals here his earth, he also gave us dogs, to teach us how he actually loves. A dogs ethical value goes way beyond money, mistreating Gods creatures is to mistreat God himself.
RGD/Dave

I agree

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:59 am

mcbosco wrote:
Ryman Gun Dog wrote:Mountaindog,
Although I have been raised to respect all life, and dogs are treated as part of the family here at my place, dogs are property and do not have equal rights as a human. That being said the dog handlers in the US Army had a saying about this old Warrant Officer, and had placed the sign over the entrance to our training facility. Mistreating a fellow soldier in this facility, especially a dog, might endanger the abusers well being. God gave us dominion over all other animals here his earth, he also gave us dogs, to teach us how he actually loves. A dogs ethical value goes way beyond money, mistreating Gods creatures is to mistreat God himself.
RGD/Dave
Dave I am glad you signed on. There is a thread about whether sound temperament and hunting ability can go together. A traditional setter man from PA should know a thing or two about that.

Where is that thread? Sounds interesting.

mcbosco · Post by **mcbosco** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:01 pm

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=32759

Brittlver · Post by **Brittlver** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:35 pm

mountaindogs wrote:I don't know, rename the thead if you like. But the question came up as to whether a dog is MORE or less special that a person. In another thread it is jumping into animal rights's territory, but I will share my opinion.

All life on this earth has value. Everything has a role to play, and a part to fill. I prefer a more Native American view here. Respect all the creatures and plants. They can and do have things to teach us. Prey animals are fast and agile, attentive and alert. Predators are often quite, stealthy, and patient. A stupid tick is not worth much perhaps, but it is persistant, at the very least, we can learn that from it. The ant is a master of community cooperation. The dog is so so many things the list would go out the door. Most everyone here knows the list! Respect and value does not have to oppose killing. I respect and value a deer. Fast, agile, and a muture buck is a stunning sight to enjoy. But I still eat them. In fact, I repesct them in part BECAUSE I eat them. Hunting is a challenge, and that in itself gives a value to the dinner, and the lessons learned from both our own prey, and the predators we can learn from.
I am not trying to go all, metaphysical here, but you can have both. You can have an equal (but NOT identical) respect and value for a deer, a dog, or a friend. It does not mean that you think they are actually the same animal, but that they have equal value in their own way. Sometimes part of that way is, helping us hunt, sharing our family, and sometimes that is feeding us for another day. Part of my love and respect for my children/family might mean that I have to protect them from an animal that is trying to hurt them. It might even be an animal that I love. But repect is not love, and I can still respect the strengths, and learn from the weaknesses that caused me to step in and kill one thing, to save another. Be it protection or hunger or both, it is not contingent on ENOUGH respect or value. Merely the correctly placed value.
Hope that my diversion is sensible, but if you are going to jump on this topic, do it here. I'm no moderator, just sticking my nose in where it might get chopped off

I agree with everything you say. If everyone looked at life like the Native Americans I think people would have a different outlook. But I will never put another animal over my Child, Family or Friends. I don't see us as being higher then them but we just like them need to protect our family against potential threats. This goes the same for Humans. If a human tried to attack my family I would definitely step in and stop them. Anyone would. Does this make us higher then them, NO. It makes us equal in the form that we are just like them Animals. Like Winchey said Humans are the ones that came up with the concept of value and what makes ones value better or higher then another. Keep it simple and look at as if you were in nature and you had to do what you needed to survive.

Jesse

Ryman Gun Dog · Post by **Ryman Gun Dog** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:59 pm

mcBosco,
I posted on the other thread you mentioned for everyone to review, when you have time give it a read.
Gentlemen you are above all other animals, God gave man dominion over all the animals, however your responsibility is to treat them as God has intended,
abusing the gifts that God bestowed on man is not tolerated by God, he makes all things equal in the end.
RGD/Dave

troutbum13 · Post by **troutbum13** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:37 pm

Being wired the way I am, I find it confusing when the two sides of this debate inevitably move to two basic arguments.

Being created by God makes us the boss...pass the meat.
vs.
Wolves just need a hug...animals have feelings too, have some tofu.

There is something broken in me that can't understand either side...it is just too emotional for me.

As an emotionally broken heathen I think of it like this:
Some many years ago, wolves figured out that people = food. Wolves that were nice to people got more food and those wolves which were not nice got spears chucked at em. People who kept dogs, became better hunters and had a better security system. They ate more and got better a night's sleep than the non-dog people down the street. More dog people survived to spread their genes and next thing you now I am killing a big old rooster over my pup.

Morality takes the form of "this gives me an evolutionary advantage". People are herd folk, we have developed a sense of empathy for the rest of the herd. That sense of empathy helped us survive, but just like the dog it was self-serving. People who did not have empathy for their herd-mates ended up with smaller herds and were not as successful. Emotionally broken heathens died alone in the cold without a herd.

All this to day that every form of life helps those who help them and attacks those that don't. Most dog owners are three hungry days away from BBQ'ing Fido to feed their family. It's in our nature.

Post by **Sharon** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:59 pm

Winchey wrote:Nothing really has a role to play or a part to fill. Value and meaning are man made. People keep searching for "meaning" and it doesn't exist. We are no more special than a rock. More complex, more ineteresting yes, we have done some cool stuff. People value different things differently and since it is a man made concept, the value they have is what each individual individually places on them.

i 'm restraining myself from sounding religious but i sure don't believe that.

Post by **topher40** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:08 pm

Not a biblical scholar by any means but didnt God give man dominion over all the animals..............or something like that? Come on folks they are just animals and like I have said before they are property, no different than a car.

Brittlver · Post by **Brittlver** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:15 pm

topher40 wrote:Not a biblical scholar by any means but didnt God give man dominion over all the animals..............or something like that? Come on folks they are just animals and like I have said before they are property, no different than a car.

You have to remember that is only one religion and may not be the true. Do you think that the Native Americans believed that or any other religion that relys on other animals for worship. Are they wrong? Dogs are not property. We humans made them property. I don't think God would say they are property. I would say he put them here to serve a purpose and that purpose is to be a friend to us. Why do you think people made the term "MANS BEST FRIEND."

Jesse

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:27 pm

Property has value too.

I do believe that we humans are stewards, and should care for and protect the gifts given to us. Part of appreciating a gift is using it and caring for it, right. You give me food, and I thank you and I eat it.

windswept · Post by **windswept** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:30 pm

Brittlver wrote:
topher40 wrote:Not a biblical scholar by any means but didnt God give man dominion over all the animals..............or something like that? Come on folks they are just animals and like I have said before they are property, no different than a car.
You have to remember that is only one religion and may not be the true. Do you think that the Native Americans believed that or any other religion that relys on other animals for worship. Are they wrong? Dogs are not property. We humans made them property. I don't think God would say they are property. I would say he put them here to serve a purpose and that purpose is to be a friend to us. Why do you think people made the term "MANS BEST FRIEND."

Jesse

Topher, You're looking for Genesis 1 vs 28 "God blessed them (humans) and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number, fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground"

Jesse, Yes I do believe that any religion that worships animals is wrong and I also believe that God put animals on the earth for our use and we are to rule over them. I'm not really interested in busting your chops over your religion or lack thereof but this is a thread baed upon ethics so I'm sharing mine.
Tom

proudag08 · Post by **proudag08** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:33 pm

Ryman Gun Dog wrote:mcBosco,
I posted on the other thread you mentioned for everyone to review, when you have time give it a read.
Gentlemen you are above all other animals, God gave man dominion over all the animals, however your responsibility is to treat them as God has intended,
abusing the gifts that God bestowed on man is not tolerated by God, he makes all things equal in the end.
RGD/Dave

This!

markj · Post by **markj** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:35 pm

I love my dogs and they love me? I think they love me, sometimes tho I feel they hate me too...... can a dog have these feelings? heck no its all in my mind

Some cultures do not treat dogs as pets. Native Americans for instance, they used em for garbage disposal, as pack animals to carry things as most tribes were nomadic and moved a lot. In hard times they were eaten. They worked for their living or got tossed into a pot. No petting, no petsy names, dogs were not treated as we treat them. They were used to do labor.

Some cultures view dogs as a bad thing, why go to some areas of the mid east and call someone a dog or a son of a dog.....

I love my dogs and I think they may love me....

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:52 pm

Brittlver wrote:
topher40 wrote:Not a biblical scholar by any means but didnt God give man dominion over all the animals..............or something like that? Come on folks they are just animals and like I have said before they are property, no different than a car.
You have to remember that is only one religion and may not be the true. Do you think that the Native Americans believed that or any other religion that relys on other animals for worship. Are they wrong? Dogs are not property. We humans made them property. I don't think God would say they are property. I would say he put them here to serve a purpose and that purpose is to be a friend to us. Why do you think people made the term "MANS BEST FRIEND."

Jesse

The native americans are a diverse group of folks with many related but still different beliefs. Most that I know of, do in fact believe that animals, plants, and everything on this earth including rocks and minerals are gifts from the creator, also. They do not even harvest plants without giving thanks for them and
My point is not to hash beliefs, really but simply to start these ideas brought up by someone else, into a more appropriate place, so I helped. I shared mine beliefs as they relate to animals and . Beliefs are the most sensitive of all topics, and wars are fought over them. Today, people are dying for them. And for the right for you, me and everyone else here to live in a country free to have and share your own varied beliefs. I would advise not to get to expansive with the topic, keep it to the animal related ethics. Course advice is all it is.
I love my dogs, too.

Brittlver · Post by **Brittlver** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:58 pm

markj wrote:I love my dogs and they love me? I think they love me, sometimes tho I feel they hate me too...... can a dog have these feelings? heck no its all in my mind

Some cultures do not treat dogs as pets. Native Americans for instance, they used em for garbage disposal, as pack animals to carry things as most tribes were nomadic and moved a lot. In hard times they were eaten. They worked for their living or got tossed into a pot. No petting, no petsy names, dogs were not treated as we treat them. They were used to do labor.

Some cultures view dogs as a bad thing, why go to some areas of the mid east and call someone a dog or a son of a dog.....

I love my dogs and I think they may love me....

The point about the Native Americans is is how they viewed animals. Yes they may have done those things but the dogs could have left at anytime. They didn't because they liked being there. In hard times people have been known to eat other people so that is just a matter of who is around when your starving to death and how far you are willing to go. I am cathlic and believe in the same thing you guys do. I just wanted to point out the fact that everyone is different and believe in different things. How can anyone say they are right and others are wrong when they don't even know who is right.

Jesse

Post by **topher40** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:02 pm

Brittlver wrote:
topher40 wrote:Not a biblical scholar by any means but didnt God give man dominion over all the animals..............or something like that? Come on folks they are just animals and like I have said before they are property, no different than a car.
You have to remember that is only one religion and may not be the true. Do you think that the Native Americans believed that or any other religion that relys on other animals for worship. Are they wrong? Dogs are not property. We humans made them property. I don't think God would say they are property. I would say he put them here to serve a purpose and that purpose is to be a friend to us. Why do you think people made the term "MANS BEST FRIEND."

Jesse

Last I was aware the same is said in ANY Christian bible. Many different sects within Christianity but seeing how many Christians worldwide there are I would say there is a majority. Man made dogs property and I can agree with that but your last statement makes me wonder. People "making" a term like "mans best friend" isnt any more wrong than making dogs property is it? I would say not since man made both.....

gonehuntin' · Post by **gonehuntin'** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:06 pm

You fellers is too deep for me. A dog's just a damned dog and he better do two things: not bite the hand that feeds him and do what I command him to do. Around my house, the dog is not a part of the democracy.

Brittlver · Post by **Brittlver** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:08 pm

topher40 wrote:
Brittlver wrote:
topher40 wrote:Not a biblical scholar by any means but didnt God give man dominion over all the animals..............or something like that? Come on folks they are just animals and like I have said before they are property, no different than a car.
You have to remember that is only one religion and may not be the true. Do you think that the Native Americans believed that or any other religion that relys on other animals for worship. Are they wrong? Dogs are not property. We humans made them property. I don't think God would say they are property. I would say he put them here to serve a purpose and that purpose is to be a friend to us. Why do you think people made the term "MANS BEST FRIEND."

Jesse
Last I was aware the same is said in ANY Christian bible. Many different sects within Christianity but seeing how many Christians worldwide there are I would say there is a majority. Man made dogs property and I can agree with that but your last statement makes me wonder. People "making" a term like "mans best friend" isnt any more wrong than making dogs property is it? I would say not since man made both.....

This is making my point. Who can say anything Man does is right. Man made the term "Mans best friend" and are also say "Dogs are property." Which one is the truth. They can't be both. Its either your friend or its your property.

Jesse

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:10 pm

Sharon wrote:
Winchey wrote:Nothing really has a role to play or a part to fill. Value and meaning are man made. People keep searching for "meaning" and it doesn't exist. We are no more special than a rock. More complex, more ineteresting yes, we have done some cool stuff. People value different things differently and since it is a man made concept, the value they have is what each individual individually places on them.
i 'm restraining myself from sounding religious but i sure don't believe that.

You don't have to believe it, It is nobodies place to tell someone else what to think or believe.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:14 pm

IMO dogs don't have a soul, that doesn't mean I don't love them because I do, I do everything I can to give my dog the best care I am able. But in the end they are still just a dog and are not on the same level as a person. BUT I also realize that not everyone feels the same... but don't tell me how to feel and I will do the same for you.

Brittlver · Post by **Brittlver** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:19 pm

If a dog does not have a soul or feelings then how do we see situations like these.

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/2 ... -on-video/

or this one

http://www.examiner.com/tampa-top-news- ... eave-video

Dogs do have feelings. But do to a language barrier most people don't see them. Doesn't meant they don't have any.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:24 pm

If you are going to argue about whether a dog has a soul or not would you mind telling me what the heck a soul is.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:25 pm

Winchey wrote:If you are going to argue about whether a dog has a soul or not would you mind telling me what the heck a soul is.

What did my previous post say believe what you want, don't tell me what to believe.

Your response will come down to something similar to the the same old tired non christian argument, you are not a believer so.... what's the point? Enjoy and think and what you want, I will do the same.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:32 pm

My point is that this is an emotional rather than a rational argument and nothing will be accomplished. I could care less what you believe in.

Brittlver · Post by **Brittlver** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:35 pm

Ok guys lets not get into a religious fight here. This thread was to determine if a dog is considered property or not.

mountaindogs · Post by **mountaindogs** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:39 pm

It is.
That was not my purpose, but may be yours.
My purpose was to move the thread and share my thoughts on value and respect.

Brittlver · Post by **Brittlver** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:42 pm

mountaindogs wrote:My purpose was to move the thread and share my thoughts on value and respect.

Exactly. Not to bicker about whether or not we believe in souls. LOL Even people that believe that we have them still say "that person must not have a soul."

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:50 pm

Dogs don't have souls that is why dogs and people are not equal... therefore a dogs life is of less value than a human life.

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:55 pm

Humans don't have souls either.

proudag08 · Post by **proudag08** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:00 pm

Winchey wrote:Humans don't have souls either.

You have made your point quite clear. We understand that. We dont want this to turn into a religious arguement. It will do nothing but make people mad. We can all respect each others opinions. We do not all have to agree.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:07 pm

I place very little value on relationships with people who do not respect the role my dogs occupy in my life. There's your value and respect.

DonF · Post by **DonF** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:20 pm

Boy the bird hunting must be slow this year!

Winchey · Post by **Winchey** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:24 pm

DonF wrote:Boy the bird hunting must be slow this year!

Stupid time change, it's dark after work now, have the rest of the week off though so we will be out the rest of the week, then the season is done on Saturday.