An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by birddogger » Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:42 pm

You have to remember that is only one religion and may not be the true. Do you think that the Native Americans believed that or any other religion that relys on other animals for worship. Are they wrong? Dogs are not property. We humans made them property. I don't think God would say they are property. I would say he put them here to serve a purpose and that purpose is to be a friend to us. Why do you think people made the term "MANS BEST FRIEND."
Yes, any people who worship animals are wrong! And the Indians [I know, not PC] considered them property and butchered and ate them other than just during hard times [read some books on the Lewis and Clark expedition]. We respect and treat dogs better than any civilization has. We should never abuse, neglect or mistreat them but they are still our property. If they were not property, they would never be bought or sold. Is a Rat our equal also? PETA says so. NO ANIMAL IS OUR EQUAL!!!

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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by gonehuntin' » Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:44 pm

Winchey wrote:Humans don't have souls either.
Only in Kanada.
LIFE WITHOUT BIRD DOGS AND FLY RODS REALLY ISN'T LIFE AT ALL.

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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by Winchey » Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:52 pm

:cry:

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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by Brittlver » Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:05 pm

birddogger wrote:
You have to remember that is only one religion and may not be the true. Do you think that the Native Americans believed that or any other religion that relys on other animals for worship. Are they wrong? Dogs are not property. We humans made them property. I don't think God would say they are property. I would say he put them here to serve a purpose and that purpose is to be a friend to us. Why do you think people made the term "MANS BEST FRIEND."
Yes, any people who worship animals are wrong! And the Indians [I know, not PC] considered them property and butchered and ate them other than just during hard times [read some books on the Lewis and Clark expedition]. We respect and treat dogs better than any civilization has. We should never abuse, neglect or mistreat them but they are still our property. If they were not property, they would never be bought or sold. Is a Rat our equal also? PETA says so. NO ANIMAL IS OUR EQUAL!!!

Charlie
Charlie you have to believe there is more then what Lewis and Clark found out. I know quite a few indians have a bit in my blood too. Yes they did eat them but they also respected them, Indians did not leave anything to waste. Everything has a purpose in life and provide food for something else. Even us humans. Money is a something made by man to show our place in life. You have to take all the crap man made and bring it back to before there was anything and then tell us were we place in the world. Property is only what we consider belong to us. But in the end does it really belong to us or is it borrowed to us. Did god say here this is yours and solely yours or did he say I am putting this on earth for you. He can still take it away. So that tells me that it does not belong to me but borrowed to me.

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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by GUNDOGS » Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:05 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
Winchey wrote:Humans don't have souls either.
Only in Kanada.
its Canada, we have souls and can spell :lol: :wink: ...ruth
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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by JKP » Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:23 pm

I consider my dogs my most valuable tools...I take care of my tools...taken care off, they perform well for me. They aren't human and I don't assign them any human qualities. I guess I have a reverence for life...and believe I have a responsibility to treat life well, respect it and not use it wantonly. But animals must ultimately be on a rung well below those I love and my responsibility to them.

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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by birddogger » Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:29 pm

Charlie you have to believe there is more then what Lewis and Clark found out. I know quite a few indians have a bit in my blood too. Yes they did eat them but they also respected them, Indians did not leave anything to waste. Everything has a purpose in life and provide food for something else. Even us humans. Money is a something made by man to show our place in life. You have to take all the crap man made and bring it back to before there was anything and then tell us were we place in the world. Property is only what we consider belong to us. But in the end does it really belong to us or is it borrowed to us. Did god say here this is yours and solely yours or did he say I am putting this on earth for you. He can still take it away. So that tells me that it does not belong to me but borrowed to me.
Jesse, of course our property is only temporary and can be taken away at any time and yes everything has a purpose but everything is not equal.

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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by Brittlver » Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:31 pm

Oh Charlie you make me so happy hearing that. I agree not everything is equal but they shouldn't considered property. They don't belong to us. Only us humans say they do but I am sure what ever god you pray to would say different. I think we are finally on the same page. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by birddogger » Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:41 pm

Brittlver wrote:Oh Charlie you make me so happy hearing that. I agree not everything is equal but they shouldn't considered property. They don't belong to us. Only us humans say they do but I am sure what ever god you pray to would say different. I think we are finally on the same page. :lol: :lol: :lol:
And I am glad you agree that not everything is equal. :lol:

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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by Brittlver » Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:42 pm

But I am also not saying that all humans are equal or for that matter equal to dogs either. LOL :twisted:

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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by Sharon » Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:47 pm

Winchey wrote:
Sharon wrote:
Winchey wrote:Nothing really has a role to play or a part to fill. Value and meaning are man made. People keep searching for "meaning" and it doesn't exist. We are no more special than a rock. More complex, more ineteresting yes, we have done some cool stuff. People value different things differently and since it is a man made concept, the value they have is what each individual individually places on them.
i 'm restraining myself from sounding religious but i sure don't believe that.

You don't have to believe it, It is nobodies place to tell someone else what to think or believe.
Wow. You definately have your back up to fight about that. Actually no body has told you what to believe- i could have mind you, but i didn't . You're welcome. Now knock that chip off your shoulder.
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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by Sharon » Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:50 pm

Brittlver wrote:
birddogger wrote:
You have to remember that is only one religion and may not be the true. Do you think that the Native Americans believed that or any other religion that relys on other animals for worship. Are they wrong? Dogs are not property. We humans made them property. I don't think God would say they are property. I would say he put them here to serve a purpose and that purpose is to be a friend to us. Why do you think people made the term "MANS BEST FRIEND."
Yes, any people who worship animals are wrong! And the Indians [I know, not PC] considered them property and butchered and ate them other than just during hard times [read some books on the Lewis and Clark expedition]. We respect and treat dogs better than any civilization has. We should never abuse, neglect or mistreat them but they are still our property. If they were not property, they would never be bought or sold. Is a Rat our equal also? PETA says so. NO ANIMAL IS OUR EQUAL!!!

Charlie
Charlie you have to believe there is more then what Lewis and Clark found out. I know quite a few indians have a bit in my blood too. Yes they did eat them but they also respected them, Indians did not leave anything to waste. Everything has a purpose in life and provide food for something else. Even us humans. Money is a something made by man to show our place in life. You have to take all the crap man made and bring it back to before there was anything and then tell us were we place in the world. Property is only what we consider belong to us. But in the end does it really belong to us or is it borrowed to us. Did god say here this is yours and solely yours or did he say I am putting this on earth for you. He can still take it away. So that tells me that it does not belong to me but borrowed to me.

The First Nations People believe every animal , tree etc has a spirit inside. They call on these animal spirits for help when necessary. Fascinating.
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by Sharon » Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:54 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:
Winchey wrote:Humans don't have souls either.
Only in Kanada.

LOL Actually only in Ontario. :)
" We are more than our gender, skin color, class, sexuality or age; we are unlimited potential, and can not be defined by one label." quote A. Bartlett

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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by windswept » Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:09 pm

Charlie you have to believe there is more then what Lewis and Clark found out. I know quite a few indians have a bit in my blood too. Yes they did eat them but they also respected them, Indians did not leave anything to waste. Everything has a purpose in life and provide food for something else. Even us humans. Money is a something made by man to show our place in life. You have to take all the crap man made and bring it back to before there was anything and then tell us were we place in the world. Property is only what we consider belong to us. But in the end does it really belong to us or is it borrowed to us. Did god say here this is yours and solely yours or did he say I am putting this on earth for you. He can still take it away. So that tells me that it does not belong to me but borrowed to me.[/quote]

Are you by chance posting from Zuccotti Park. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

That bit about Indians not leaving anything to waste is actually a myth.

This has strayed way to far off course. Dogs are nothing but dogs. With that I'll let this one die without me.

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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by wems2371 » Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:12 pm

Mountaindogs initial post probably summed it up best for me and Winchey hits home with some of my own ponderings.

I feel my dogs are my property in the sense that I chose them, brought them to my house, and have a duty to make them a respectable part of the family...one that is not feared and brings far more joy than hardship. Are they equals? Heck no...none of you are either. :lol: :lol: :lol: There are only two people that rule the roost here and even we speculate our equality. :D

I do NOT consider my dogs property in the sense that they are equal to an inanimate object, such as a vehicle. They are living breathing entities, that experience pain, playfulness, and wanting to be loved on...among other qualities. They are not just a tool in my hunting toolbox or to put ribbons on the wall. I respect them for what they are, which is a completely different species, and have never sought to compare them with myself. It would be apples to oranges in my mind.

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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by Brittlver » Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:23 pm

wems2371 wrote:Mountaindogs initial post probably summed it up best for me and Winchey hits home with some of my own ponderings.

I feel my dogs are my property in the sense that I chose them, brought them to my house, and have a duty to make them a respectable part of the family...one that is not feared and brings far more joy than hardship. Are they equals? Heck no...none of you are either. :lol: :lol: :lol: There are only two people that rule the roost here and even we speculate our equality. :D

I do NOT consider my dogs property in the sense that they are equal to an inanimate object, such as a vehicle. They are living breathing entities, that experience pain, playfulness, and wanting to be loved on...among other qualities. They are not just a tool in my hunting toolbox or to put ribbons on the wall. I respect them for what they are, which is a completely different species, and have never sought to compare them with myself. It would be apples to oranges in my mind.
+1

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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by slistoe » Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:11 pm

windswept wrote: That bit about Indians not leaving anything to waste is actually a myth.
The boys believing that one never understood a buffalo jump.

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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by birddogger » Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:09 pm

slistoe wrote:
windswept wrote: That bit about Indians not leaving anything to waste is actually a myth.
The boys believing that one never understood a buffalo jump.
That is a good point and there are so many myths out there.

My Grandparents truly never left anything to waste, out of necessity...Nothing more...Nothing less.

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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by ezzy333 » Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:49 pm

Brittlver wrote:
markj wrote:I love my dogs and they love me? I think they love me, sometimes tho I feel they hate me too...... can a dog have these feelings? heck no its all in my mind :)

Some cultures do not treat dogs as pets. Native Americans for instance, they used em for garbage disposal, as pack animals to carry things as most tribes were nomadic and moved a lot. In hard times they were eaten. They worked for their living or got tossed into a pot. No petting, no petsy names, dogs were not treated as we treat them. They were used to do labor.

Some cultures view dogs as a bad thing, why go to some areas of the mid east and call someone a dog or a son of a dog.....

I love my dogs and I think they may love me....
The point about the Native Americans is is how they viewed animals. Yes they may have done those things but the dogs could have left at anytime. They didn't because they liked being there. In hard times people have been known to eat other people so that is just a matter of who is around when your starving to death and how far you are willing to go. I am cathlic and believe in the same thing you guys do. I just wanted to point out the fact that everyone is different and believe in different things. How can anyone say they are right and others are wrong when they don't even know who is right.

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The Native Americans viewed their animals just like we do. They tended to worship all the animals that they needed to support their life style just like we do. Only we have extended it to many manufactured items like our cars, trucks, houses, and anything else we need.

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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by asc » Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:07 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:I place very little value on relationships with people who do not respect the role my dogs occupy in my life. There's your value and respect.
Yes! I like dogs. People? not so much.
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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by displaced_texan » Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:16 pm

topher40 wrote: Last I was aware the same is said in ANY Christian bible. Many different sects within Christianity but seeing how many Christians worldwide there are I would say there is a majority. Man made dogs property and I can agree with that but your last statement makes me wonder. People "making" a term like "mans best friend" isnt any more wrong than making dogs property is it? I would say not since man made both..... :lol:
Christians do not make up a majority of the world's population.
Winchey wrote:If you are going to argue about whether a dog has a soul or not would you mind telling me what the heck a soul is.
I believe soul=life, so you have one as do your dogs...

That's based on my beliefs and personal study (I'll say I'm a Christian and study a lot, on many subjects, and leave it at that.)
Cajun Casey wrote:I place very little value on relationships with people who do not respect the role my dogs occupy in my life. There's your value and respect.
I agree completely!
wems2371 wrote:Mountaindogs initial post probably summed it up best for me and Winchey hits home with some of my own ponderings.

I feel my dogs are my property in the sense that I chose them, brought them to my house, and have a duty to make them a respectable part of the family...one that is not feared and brings far more joy than hardship. Are they equals? Heck no...none of you are either. :lol: :lol: :lol: There are only two people that rule the roost here and even we speculate our equality. :D

I do NOT consider my dogs property in the sense that they are equal to an inanimate object, such as a vehicle. They are living breathing entities, that experience pain, playfulness, and wanting to be loved on...among other qualities. They are not just a tool in my hunting toolbox or to put ribbons on the wall. I respect them for what they are, which is a completely different species, and have never sought to compare them with myself. It would be apples to oranges in my mind.
I also agree with this explanation...
I have English Pointers because they don't ever grow up either...

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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by Winchey » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:24 am

"Wow. You definately have your back up to fight about that. Actually no body has told you what to believe- i could have mind you, but i didn't . You're welcome. Now knock that chip off your shoulder."

I don't have a chip on my shoulder, just expressing my opinion. When someone wants to speak about dominion over animals and souls then I have an equal right to speak my point of view. I don't believe being Christian, Muslim, Spiritual, Agnostic or Atheist alone makes anyone a good or bad person. I know better to get involved in a discussion like this as it is usually a waste of time but it is nice to see that it didn't get to out of hand on here, and ended up being a half decent discussion imo.

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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by gonehuntin' » Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:00 am

GUNDOGS wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:
Winchey wrote:Humans don't have souls either.
Only in Kanada.
its Canada, we have souls and can spell :lol: :wink: ...ruth
Just needling Winchey Ruth, didn't think about upsetting someone else. Actually, my whole father's side of the family is still in Nova Scotia. They also have souls. :lol: :lol:
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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by GUNDOGS » Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:08 am

na, didnt upset me at all gonehuntin' i thought it was funny too :D my sister in law lives in Bridgewater Nova Scotia and loves it but as far as her having a soul, well thats another story :lol: :wink: ...ruth
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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by Knightfarms » Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:36 am

gonehuntin' wrote:You fellers is too deep for me. A dog's just a "bleep" dog and he better do two things: not bite the hand that feeds him and do what I command him to do. Around my house, the dog is not a part of the democracy.
+1
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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by DogNewbie » Tue Nov 29, 2011 10:54 am

Sharon wrote:
Winchey wrote:Nothing really has a role to play or a part to fill. Value and meaning are man made. People keep searching for "meaning" and it doesn't exist. We are no more special than a rock. More complex, more ineteresting yes, we have done some cool stuff. People value different things differently and since it is a man made concept, the value they have is what each individual individually places on them.
i 'm restraining myself from sounding religious but i sure don't believe that.
Don't restrain yourself from sounding your beliefs. I'm not real religious and would tend to agree more with Winchey on this one, but as long as no one comes off as judgmental I'm fine with reading your religious perspective...In fact I usually find it interesting...I think a few pushy evangelical nutters have given the rest of the faithful a bad rep! :)

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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by proudag08 » Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:18 am

DogNewbie wrote:
Sharon wrote:
Winchey wrote:Nothing really has a role to play or a part to fill. Value and meaning are man made. People keep searching for "meaning" and it doesn't exist. We are no more special than a rock. More complex, more ineteresting yes, we have done some cool stuff. People value different things differently and since it is a man made concept, the value they have is what each individual individually places on them.
i 'm restraining myself from sounding religious but i sure don't believe that.
Don't restrain yourself from sounding your beliefs. I'm not real religious and would tend to agree more with Winchey on this one, but as long as no one comes off as judgmental I'm fine with reading your religious perspective...In fact I usually find it interesting...I think a few pushy evangelical nutters have given the rest of the faithful a bad rep! :)
DogNewbie,

Thank you. As a Christian, I thank you for not associating me with the nut jobs protesting funerals or yelling hellfire and brimstone on the street corners. It's rare and I appreciate you giving the rest of us the benefit of the doubt that our faith is genuine and rooted in love not hate.

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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by birddogger » Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:20 am

DogNewbie wrote:
Sharon wrote:
Winchey wrote:Nothing really has a role to play or a part to fill. Value and meaning are man made. People keep searching for "meaning" and it doesn't exist. We are no more special than a rock. More complex, more ineteresting yes, we have done some cool stuff. People value different things differently and since it is a man made concept, the value they have is what each individual individually places on them.
i 'm restraining myself from sounding religious but i sure don't believe that.
Don't restrain yourself from sounding your beliefs. I'm not real religious and would tend to agree more with Winchey on this one, but as long as no one comes off as judgmental I'm fine with reading your religious perspective...In fact I usually find it interesting...I think a few pushy evangelical nutters have given the rest of the faithful a bad rep! :)
I am not religious, in that I don't belong to any particular church or denomination. However, I am a believer and believe in Christianity. In my mind faith is a different thing than religion and without faith, I would have or be nothing and may as well be a rock. I do like to here what others believe though.

Charlie
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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by DogNewbie » Tue Nov 29, 2011 11:55 am

I think this discussion is actually really interesting, even though it kinda has nothing to do with bird dogs...haha

Here's my view for anyone interested. Dog's are not the creation of a supreme being, they are the result of the mans domestication of the wolf. Whether some supreme being put wolves on this earth or they crawled out of the primordial ooze, I'll side with the ooze people 9 times out of ten. That being said, I find the biggest stump to sciences' inability to disprove the existence of a "Creator," or whatever you wish to call it, extremely fascinating. That stump being the fact that science has been unable to figure out where that first molecule came from. In my eyes, I think the process of creating a single molecule that would in time become the universe as it is today is a much more impressive feat than creating the heavens and the earth in ten days. I grew up in a Christian household and would still consider myself a Christian (although many Christians probably wouldn't agree,) but not because I believe in the bible or the Christian God or that Jesus died for my sins, but because I believe Christianity (and religion in general) for the average person can help guide you to live a good and fulfilling life. I may not believe Jesus died for me, but I sure do love his outlook on life and I think he is a great person to try to emulate. So that all being said, I think dogs are property, they are a source of food, they are our best friends, they are our tools, they are our children, they are whatever we have made them be and that is truly an amazing and fascinating example of the miracle of life....IMHO of course :)

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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by proudag08 » Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:19 pm

DogNewbie,

First I want to say that if you ever come to Ft. Worth, TX you give me a call. We'll go have a couple of brewskis and have a GREAT conversation. Although I disagree with your definition of being a Christian I appreciate your ability to see both sides of the argument. I have many friends that are in the same spot you are. They are not totally convinced that a Creator is NOT real but they also aren’t completely convinced that He is real.

IMO the only way to be a Christian is to believe with your heart and confess with your mouth that He is Lord you will be saved. (Romans 10:9) Now I am not here to put the path of salvation on this forum, however I am here to show that Christians are not all close-minded, ignorant, old, white, Southern men :lol: Like you, I am not religious. In fact, I hate when I am labeled that way. My Christian faith is not based in rituals and tradition but only in the saving grace found in a RELATIONSHIP with Jesus. I am not in a religion, I’m in a relationship.

I am a Christian. I know without a shadow of a doubt Jesus died so I wouldn’t have to face that punishment myself. I know that my flesh is awful, wretched, and slanderous on its own and Jesus is the only good thing in me. But I believe all those things because I have faith, just like we all have faith that our chairs will hold us up. That’s how convinced I am. Why? How can I be so sure? I’ve seen proof. Yes you can explain it away as a coincidence but there have been too many coincidences regarding too many HUGE parts of my life. Too many prayers directly answered. At some point you have to allow yourself to consider, “That just might be God answering prayer.” Being “open-minded” goes both ways, although its mostly used in the context of being open to other non-christian ideas. I challenge any non-beleiver to be open minded about our views as well.

I love talking to non-Christians. Not because I am anxious to “prove them wrong” or "convert" them (I cant do that anyway, thats His job) but because I want to show them that I can have a conversation, disagree/ agree, and still be friends with them. Hopefully the way I live my life will say more than any words I could say ever could.

So all that to say, keep looking. He’s there. Sorry this is so long. It’s something I’m passionate about.

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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by DogNewbie » Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:54 pm

First I want to say that if you ever come to Ft. Worth, TX you give me a call. We'll go have a couple of brewskis and have a GREAT conversation.
haha, will do. I'd like that.
Although I disagree with your definition of being a Christian I appreciate your ability to see both sides of the argument.
No argument there. I think my own family would disagree with my definition
I am not in a religion, I’m in a relationship.
I think that's a similar view as my own, except I guess Jesus is just a guy that always stood out because he just so darn nice, instead of my savior :D
I’ve seen proof.
This one has stumped me before. My Grandfather died when I was a baby and a couple year back my Grandma told me a story about one night being woken up by Grandpa. He was sitting at the end of the bed, and I wish I could remember what he said to her but he said something. Grandma says she was wide awake and Grandpa was there clear as day and I'm not one to tell my Grandma she's a lair. haha
But I believe all those things because I have faith
To be completely honest, I've always been a bit envious of people with undying faith. I wish I did. I wish I could look at all the people in my life that I love and say I know 100% that we'll be together for eternity. I don't know a single person that wouldn't want to be able to say that. Sure would make death a lot less foreboding. haha. That being said, if I'm wrong and there is a heaven, the God that I grew up with would never condemn me for lack of faith...sounds like a cop out, and it probably is, but I think if I've lived a life God would be proud of that's what matters the most and S/He/It doesn't need affirmation of my faith. That seems very much like a human reaction. I wish I could find comfort going to a church, taking a knee and praying to God and actually be comforted by doing so. That would be cool, but I can't. I also can't really explain why.
I love talking to non-Christians. Not because I am anxious to “prove them wrong” or "convert" them (I cant do that anyway, thats His job) but because I want to show them that I can have a conversation, disagree/ agree, and still be friends with them.
Well, you succeeded there! Now if we can just work on those democrats and republicans! :lol:

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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by GUNDOGS » Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:07 pm

very interesting posts..i attented catholic schools, and attended church with my mom on sundays..when i would go to florida to spend summers with my dad my sister would bring me to sunday school and when i got older i would babysit the little ones at church and thats when i knew one day i would be a mother..as i got older i made church less and less of a priority in my life and my family didnt force me but would remind me that going to worship was important..i never did go unless it was for a funeral or wedding as i felt i could worship my god, my beliefs, my faith in my own way on my own time..my kids are in catholic schools and i like that they have mass at school plus they learn many other religions at school not just ours, they are finding their own faith and beliefs of course with the foundation being built by our family but in the end faith to me is a very private individual thing..as an adult not really "practicing" any particular religion i question the validity of many things but i do believe theres a "higher power" but just not sure what or whom it is, im open to all beliefs and also find them very interesting..as far as the original question about an animals value (dogs) i believe dogs have emotions, not rationalization like humans but still emotions, are smarter then we sometimes give them credit for, feel pain, and love their owners unconditionally which is something to be valued i think.. i had a dog for 15 years who broke my heart when he died, while he was here he made my life better..what i mean by that is i had him during a time where i was lost, lost in a sense i wondered my purpose and lost because my relationship with my mom ended, my father died, i got very sick and he was there threw all that life brought me..i dont view dogs as property per say although they are not a true family member like my human family members obviously but i do believe they bring alot to life if you let them, i spend alot of time alone in fields walking quietly with them, thinking and watching them and cant imagine not having a dog(s) in my life, just like my faith its a part of who i am.....ruth
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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by Winchey » Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:08 pm

"That being said, I find the biggest stump to sciences' inability to disprove the existence of a "Creator," or whatever you wish to call it, extremely fascinating. That stump being the fact that science has been unable to figure out where that first molecule came from. In my eyes, I think the process of creating a single molecule that would in time become the universe as it is today is a much more impressive feat than creating the heavens and the earth in ten days."

You can't disprove it because there is nothing to disprove and good scientists have better things to do then bang their head against a wall. One thing I find fascinating is how people are so quick to dismiss that something can come from nothing. Where did this creator come from?

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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by adogslife » Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:30 pm

Christians do not make up a majority of the world's population
yes, they do.

Dogs are not equal to humans,no animal is, otherwise that species would be ruling the planet.God/nature/evolution has provided this planet with resources,to my knowledge,only humans have been able to tap into these resources.
As long as a dog eats geese droppings,drinks muddy water and rolls in cows manure then they are considered,by me, to be a lower species.
Respect is earned. My dogs have earned that respect along with the other animals we own,yes own. Animals would be wiped out by humans if not protected by those who respect them.
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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by Winchey » Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:41 pm

ah, no they don't, they are more populous then all other religions but last I checked 2 billion isn't over half of 7 billion.

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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by Cajun Casey » Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:54 pm

Faith is like money. Those who have it in abundance seldom advertise it and do not feel they have to justify it. :)
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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by DogNewbie » Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:02 pm

adogslife wrote: As long as a dog eats geese droppings,drinks muddy water and rolls in cows manure then they are considered,by me, to be a lower species.
haha, hard to argue that logic..that's funny
Winchey wrote: You can't disprove it because there is nothing to disprove and good scientists have better things to do then bang their head against a wall. One thing I find fascinating is how people are so quick to dismiss that something can come from nothing. Where did this creator come from?
There is something to disprove. Scientist don't know the origin of the first self replicating molecule. Unless we can know how that came about, there will always be an opening for the higher being argument. Even Richard Dawkins admits that he's not 100% positive there isn't a God, he just thinks the odds are really against it and chooses to be an atheist. People dismiss that something can come from nothing because it doesn't make any sense. When in your life has something just appeared from nothing? Science agrees that the first self replicating molecule had to of come from something, but they can't say what. Thus, God is still an option.

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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by birddog1968 » Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:18 pm

You notice these feelings for animals in women, makes perfect sense, the nurture nature is strong in women. Not a thing wrong with
that .... While i love the heck out of my animals they surely aren't equal with people by any stretch.


Ever notice the AR folks are 90+ percent women and mostly urban women to boot?

Not trying to be sexist just an observation.....I don't see where religion has got a thing in the world to do with it.....
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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by DogNewbie » Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:28 pm

Religion is a huge part of many peoples lives and often dictates their ethical view. The stereo typical christian view towards animals is that God created animals for man to rule over. Animals are here to serve people and that is their role in the universe. Some indigenous religions disagree and saw people as just another piece of the ecosystem puzzle and one was unable to own or be superior to another creature. Religion probably doesn't have to be in the conversation but it makes sense to me that it would come up

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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by RayGubernat » Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:42 pm

If you folks want ethics...How about situational ethics?

My dogs are far, far, FAR more valuable to me than the vast majority of humanity simply because they are MY dogs.

If one of my dogs gets injured or killed ...that affects me in a very personal way.

There are literally millions of human beings existing in wretched conditions, millions that are starving to death or dying of easily preventable diseases at this very moment. I do nothing whatsoever about that and most of the time don't even give it a passing thought. Why?? Because the plight of these millions is essentially irrelevant to my situation.

Therefore, in my situation, MY dogs have much more value...to ME... than most of the rest of humanity.

Now, as far as whether or not there is a God or Creator, I have it on very good authority that ther IS a God and he created us. He saw what an awful mess we have made of this thing called existence and like most scentient beings ...did not want to be blamed for the mess so He bailed. I understand that He is currently living in seclusion in the south of France. :lol: :lol: :wink: :wink:

Oh and I hasten to add I am using the standard convention in English which refers to a person in the masculine. In no way should this usage be construed by feminists out there that I am even suggesting that God is a man. Is that sufficiently politically correct?

Now that we have all this heavy stuff out of the way, can we please get back to the vastly more important(to me) subject of using bird dogs to kill stuff. :twisted: :twisted:

RayG

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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by DogNewbie » Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:48 pm

Ray, you had me at situational ethics :lol:

Let say, theoretically, you live in a situation where your dogs won't ever harm anyone close to you, but one did bite a stranger, do you put that dog down?

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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by proudag08 » Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:27 pm

Several comments I would like to make:
To be completely honest, I've always been a bit envious of people with undying faith. I wish I did. I wish I could look at all the people in my life that I love and say I know 100% that we'll be together for eternity. I don't know a single person that wouldn't want to be able to say that. Sure would make death a lot less foreboding. haha. That being said, if I'm wrong and there is a heaven, the God that I grew up with would never condemn me for lack of faith...sounds like a cop out, and it probably is, but I think if I've lived a life God would be proud of that's what matters the most and S/He/It doesn't need affirmation of my faith. That seems very much like a human reaction. I wish I could find comfort going to a church, taking a knee and praying to God and actually be comforted by doing so. That would be cool, but I can't. I also can't really explain why.
I think this is where a lot of the people that get into religious/spiritual conversations say "well in the Bible it says ...". However, if someone views the Bible as just another book of recommended moral guidelines, and not the living breathing Word of God, me showing you Bible verses will mean nothing. However, If you are willing to accept the Bible as a source of authority on moral standards why is anything else it has to say not have the same authority to you. What I am saying is that because of the magnitude of some of the things the Bible says its very hard to line item the Bible, and as such its an all or nothing type view IMO.

Second, your profession to Christ as your savior does not affirm Him in any way. He doesn’t need our affirmation, you're right, why would he? He's God. However, what it does do is show our submission to Him as the Lord of our life. And remember, Christians believe God/Father/Son are all one and the Son was once all human and all God, so human actions are not uncommon. As far as being comforted in church, that one is hard for me as well sometimes. I am more comforted during a phone call with a good friend that will listen, pray for me, encourage me and keep me accountable. Church is an uncomfortable place to go , especially if you are already skeptical.
i felt i could worship my god, my beliefs, my faith in my own way on my own time..my kids are in catholic schools and i like that they have mass at school plus they learn many other religions at school not just ours, they are finding their own faith and beliefs of course with the foundation being built by our family but in the end faith to me is a very private individual thing
I understand the feeling that faith is a very private thing but I think that is an American tradition. In the Bible, Jesus was RARELY alone and when he was alone, it was usually extreme circumstances (tempted in the desert by satan himself, praying in the garden before crucifixtion). Otherwise he was with his 12, or eating with sinners, or healing others. Always with someone else. He also sent the disciples out 2 by 2 when he gave the great commission. Christianity was never meant to be done alone. It a communal faith.
scientists have better things to do then bang their head against a wall.
I would have to argue that scientists make a living by beating their head against walls… How else did we figure out what atoms were? What the parts of atoms were? They kept digging until there was nothing else able to be gathers and then they try to invent something that will allow them to go deeper. Just MHO
Faith is like money. Those who have it in abundance seldom advertise it and do not feel they have to justify it.
I like this. Ha ha

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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by Winchey » Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:54 pm

"My dogs are far, far, FAR more valuable to me than the vast majority of humanity simply because they are MY dogs.

If one of my dogs gets injured or killed ...that affects me in a very personal way.

There are literally millions of human beings existing in wretched conditions, millions that are starving to death or dying of easily preventable diseases at this very moment. I do nothing whatsoever about that and most of the time don't even give it a passing thought. Why?? Because the plight of these millions is essentially irrelevant to my situation.

Therefore, in my situation, MY dogs have much more value...to ME... than most of the rest of humanity."

I think pretty well all of us are like that. Whether we admit it or not is another matter.

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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by ezzy333 » Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:37 pm

And something else that seals the whole deal for me, and you have all heard it before, but I and someothers on here have presonally witnessed that there are no athiest in a foxhole.

We all talk a great game that just absolutely disappears when you are in a situation you think you won't get out of.

Just no need to try and justify my opinion as it agrees with each of yours when the time comes.

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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by DogNewbie » Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:41 pm

If you are willing to accept the Bible as a source of authority on moral standards why is anything else it has to say not have the same authority to you.
Well that is just the thing. I'm not willing to accept the Bible as the source of moral authority. I think there are really good parts in it but there are just as many things that I disagree with. It's filled with contradictions and, in my opinion, when interpreted literally it often ends in discrimination of some sort.
Christianity was never meant to be done alone. It a communal faith.
What about in the Bible when it says you should hide yourself in prayer. Prayer seems to be the most intimate experiences with God. There is nothing more annoying to me than sports players that pray after scoring or after winning a game. It seems like an empty gesture and a bit like humblebragging (look it up :D )

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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by proudag08 » Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:58 pm

DogNewbie wrote:
Christianity was never meant to be done alone. It a communal faith.
What about in the Bible when it says you should hide yourself in prayer. Prayer seems to be the most intimate experiences with God. There is nothing more annoying to me than sports players that pray after scoring or after winning a game. It seems like an empty gesture and a bit like humblebragging (look it up :D )
You're right it does say that. Prayer is a spiritual discipline that needs to be done in your "closet" without a public specticle, but so does tithing, self control, humbleness, and so on. By "communal faith" I did not mean to infer that everything is done with someone else. However, a group of 3 or 4 praying in earnest is a powerful thing. I've have litterally seen it heal people and deliver people from danger. Sure you could say it was the doctors/ rescue team/ circumstances, but I choose to believe it was prayer. Youre relationship with Christ requires a personal and individual commitment but that commitment can be solidified through others around you.

As far as the empty gesture thing goes I agree with you... UNLESS, their lives off the field support the prayer. If a guy gets caught with drugs on Tuesday after praying after a touchdown on Sunday, I am more inclined to believe that the prayer was an empty gesture, although to be fair he could have just made a REALL bad choice on Tuesday, thats not for me to say. IMHO Tim Tebow does a great job with this. His life off the field supports his message on the field and on national TV.

Another example of what your talking about is when you see people on busy street corners yelling to REPENT!!!!!! and turn FROM heck!!!!!!!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!! That gets under my skin something fierce!!! "Lord what is the greatest commandment? Love your God with all your heart soul and mind." Those are His words not mine... The basis of all Christ stands for is love, so when people start screeming that all the gays, atheists, and democrats are going to heck, where is the love in that?!?! I cant stand it. It gives Christians a bad name and is not how Jesus reached the masses. He fed them, healed them, spent time with them, and loved them!

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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by birddogger » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:01 pm

ezzy333 wrote:And something else that seals the whole deal for me, and you have all heard it before, but I and someothers on here have presonally witnessed that there are no athiest in a foxhole.

We all talk a great game that just absolutely disappears when you are in a situation you think you won't get out of.

Just no need to try and justify my opinion as it agrees with each of yours when the time comes.

Ezzy
:lol: Isn't that the truth!
What about in the Bible when it says you should hide yourself in prayer. Prayer seems to be the most intimate experiences with God. There is nothing more annoying to me than sports players that pray after scoring or after winning a game. It seems like an empty gesture and a bit like humblebragging (look it up )
Now this is one thing I agree with you on.

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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by Sharon » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:14 pm

RayGubernat wrote:If you folks want ethics...How about situational ethics?

Now, as far as whether or not there is a God or Creator, I have it on very good authority that ther IS a God and he created us. He saw what an awful mess we have made of this thing called existence and like most scentient beings ...did not want to be blamed for the mess so He bailed. I understand that He is currently living in seclusion in the south of France. :lol: :lol: :wink: :wink:

Oh and I hasten to add I am using the standard convention in English which refers to a person in the masculine. In no way should this usage be construed by feminists out there that I am even suggesting that God is a man. Is that sufficiently politically correct?

Now that we have all this heavy stuff out of the way, can we please get back to the vastly more important(to me) subject of using bird dogs to kill stuff. :twisted: :twisted:

RayG

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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by troutbum13 » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:47 pm

Winchey wrote:"That being said, I find the biggest stump to sciences' inability to disprove the existence of a "Creator," or whatever you wish to call it, extremely fascinating. That stump being the fact that science has been unable to figure out where that first molecule came from. In my eyes, I think the process of creating a single molecule that would in time become the universe as it is today is a much more impressive feat than creating the heavens and the earth in ten days."

You can't disprove it because there is nothing to disprove and good scientists have better things to do then bang their head against a wall. One thing I find fascinating is how people are so quick to dismiss that something can come from nothing. Where did this creator come from?
Lets not do a disservice to us sciencey types. No offense, but if you are going to play the sciencey-atheist, please stay in the realm of fact.

a Molecule is just a "group" of 2 or more atoms. Atoms naturally group based on their electro-magnetic properties. The law of conservation of mass/matter and special relativity tell us that you can't create or destroy matter. Lots of good scientists study this, physics, chemistry, molecular biology. Matter changes state, and can be converted to energy, but is never created. There is no scientific mystery about where matter came from.

What he may be referring to is Abiogenesis. And this is a field (with many good scientists) which studies the jump from amino acid to organism. And this is an area that science does not yet understand, and has failed to recreate in a laboratory.

The origin of life is not understood. I find it equally acceptable to believe in God or primordial soup. Neither can as yet be proved. I think anyone who wants to convince others they know the answer is selling something.

And for the record most good scientists bang their head against the wall more often than not :mrgreen:

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Re: An animal's value. Ethics perspective.

Post by Winchey » Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:07 pm

First of all the first paragraph was written by somebody else earlier in the thread, I quoted it and commented. Secondly the point I was trying to make about them banging their heads against the wall was referring to it being a waste of time, maybe I should have chosen my words better. God cannot be dis-proven by science, scientific laws do not apply to him. If any part is dis-proven something else can simply be made up to dismiss it. Thus you would be banging your head against the wall.

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