Scientific Paper on Dominance Theory in Domestic Dogs

[hansreb3]

Kind of an interesting read for dog behavior buffs.

[adogslife]

It is obvious that the author does not know the correctmeaning of dominance.

[Chukar12]

A dog's life
...so I read this once, and I will have to read it again to form any kind of opinion, but I am interested in your opinion why doesn't the author know or establish to the definition you deem correct? Or, maybe this is more direct how is your definition different from the one you read? ...

[isonychia]

Kind of an interesting read for dog behavior buffs.

I just ran through that, it is a good article, yet is more of a rebuttal than anything else. They have a good point in how we shouldn't use wolve's as a study subject in dog behavior, yet it seems they still do exactly that. I would have to read it a little bit more to really critique it. I can say, as a fellow Ecologist that I am impressed to see another ecologist post a peer reviewed paper! How is grad school getting in the way of your dog life (see your a TA on your profile, so correct me if I'm wrong)? I've been debating when to go and what for (leaning towards GIS development).

[Chukar12]

...so from a practical sense I think it reinforced the theories of associative learning by examining how behaviors were shaped through interactions between dogs and humans. I think sometimes these studies based in intellect are confusing to those of us in practical application...I had to look up a dozen words. However, even the most hard core compulsion trainer is using association, "if you do it this way I thump you, if you do it that way I don't"

I am searching here, but the paper is clarifying semantics? What we describe as dominance as a trait, the paper largely disputes as circumstantial and environmental, and could change over time...In the human example...Let's just say that you are an evil dictator and that you are extremely dominant to the point of brutality over your minions, and then because I am American and I like it I choose us...in the name of humanity we over throw your evil empire and set you free in another country where your power and influence isn't known, and your core idealogy is disdainful to the culture...are you still dominant?

[hansreb3]

Opinions about the paper:

I think they actually make a pretty good case for tossing out the construct of 'dominance' when we're trying to figure out a dog's motivation for behaving aggressively. I found the study of the 9 neutered male dogs especially compelling. There are more and more articles in the scientific literature popping up about this topic; but the conventional wisdom doesn't seem to want to let it go. I can understand that. Its very intuitive to use the traditional wolf-pack as a model for understanding dog behavior. I, myself, thought that way and have started to change my mind of the past few YEARS (It took a long time to change my mind!). There's also more scientific literature coming out about how we have probably been wrong about some basic aspects of wolf pack behavior all along.

The definition of word "dominant", however, is a much harder beast to tackle. Its important to note that dominance isn't a real tangible thing; its a human description of a set of behaviors, but none of us will be able to agree 100% on what those behaviors are. Some may describe a dog who jumps on you as dominant while other might describe it as excited. The article says that dominance should be used to describe a relationship during an interaction and not an individual. For example, a dog dominated another and stole a rawhide, but the dog itself is not dominant. The rest of the article goes on to describe how pliable the interactions of dogs are, and a dog that submits in one situation may dominate in another. So, I see their point. Interactions among dogs are so complex and variable; its a misnomer to call a dog dominant because, chances are, it won't consistently behave that way.

I imagine that some folks will find the ideas in this article to be pretty absurd; but after a lot of thinking, watching, and reading... I'm comfortable with it. There are still a lot of questions I want answers to about this topic... Folk wisdom has traditionally been waaaaaay ahead of the science when it comes to dog behavior. But that's slowly starting to change.

That's my two (maybe five..) cents. I posted this to give people something new to think about.

Isonychia:
Always nice to meet ecologists who are sportsman/women! At the risk of getting political...I think we need a lot more people in the world that meet that description.
Grad school certainly gets in the way of things. For one, I'm poor. That makes it hard to make time for hunting. I think going into grad school for GIS would give you a lot of job security (and the new stuff coming out is REALLY COOL). We have a Geospatial MS degree offered at Idaho State and a Geospatial post graduate certificate if you're interested. http://www.isu.edu

[Winchey]

Another good article written by Animal behaviorist Dr Ed Bailey published in Gundog magazine might be worth a look for anyone who hasn't read it. it can be found here http://www.gundogmag.com/2010/09/23/tra ... wolf_1109/

Most of the stuff I read and learned when I first started training dogs (not so long ago) parallel that paper so I was kind of shocked at how so many accomplished bird dog trainers seemed pretty much backwards in their understandings of dog behaviour.

Gundog people seem enamored more so then others with the concepts tackled in the paper. I think it is because most of them are old and because it seems as though their methods work in spite of recent studies, when really if you break things down you can see why they work.

[GUNDOGS]

interesting article so far..ive been reading alot about dominance, possessive and obsessive behavior in dogs lately so this will be a good read to add to my interest...i will read wincheys link too thanks...ruth

[birddogger]

Another good article written by Animal behaviorist Dr Ed Bailey published in Gundog magazine might be worth a look for anyone who hasn't read it. it can be found here http://www.gundogmag.com/2010/09/23/tra ... wolf_1109/

Most of the stuff I read and learned when I first started training dogs (not so long ago) parallel that paper so I was kind of shocked at how so many accomplished bird dog trainers seemed pretty much backwards in their understandings of dog behaviour.

Gundog people seem enamored more so then others with the concepts tackled in the paper. I think it is because most of them are old and because it seems as though their methods work in spite of recent studies, when really if you break things down you can see why they work.

I remember a time [not so long ago] that we respected people who had lived longer and had more experience. Now days it seems so many people consider being "old" [whatever age they think that is] and more experienced is a person who couldn't possibly know as much as the more enlightened "young people" and the studies they consider gospel.

Charlie

[mountaindogs]

In ourselves and in dogs it is useful to remember where we have been, to better view where we are going. We should not ignore the wolf origins, but we should also realize that dogs have had thousands of years to become more attuned to humans and we have pushed that even faster with selective breeding. SO of course they will differ.
Interesting though. And welcome

[Sharon]

Another good article written by Animal behaviorist Dr Ed Bailey published in Gundog magazine might be worth a look for anyone who hasn't read it. it can be found here http://www.gundogmag.com/2010/09/23/tra ... wolf_1109/

Most of the stuff I read and learned when I first started training dogs (not so long ago) parallel that paper so I was kind of shocked at how so many accomplished bird dog trainers seemed pretty much backwards in their understandings of dog behaviour.

Gundog people seem enamored more so then others with the concepts tackled in the paper. I think it is because most of them are old and because it seems as though their methods work in spite of recent studies, when really if you break things down you can see why they work.

I remember a time [not so long ago] that we respected people who had lived longer and had more experience. Now days it seems so many people consider being "old" [whatever age they think that is] and more experienced is a person who couldn't possibly know as much as the more enlightened "young people" and the studies they consider gospel.

Charlie

Exactly. Well said, birdogger. I'm very old Winchey and have only trained about 80 bird dogs/beagles in my lifetime. :roll:

[Winchey]

It just seems most people base their thoughts on training on the captive wolf model which is far from accurate. Nowhere does it say an Alfa role will not work, I just don't like hearing inaccurate comments like I do it because that's what a wolf does.

I am sorry age alone doesn't warrant respect.

[ezzy333]

It just seems most people base their thoughts on training on the captive wolf model which is far from accurate. Nowhere does it say an Alfa role will not work, I just don't like hearing inaccurate comments like I do it because that's what a wolf does.

I am sorry age alone doesn't warrant respect.

You have to earn respect even when you are young. Seams it is hard to do sometimes.

Ezzy

[postoakshorthairs]

I am sorry age alone doesn't warrant respect.

I think respect is something that is earned and is much harder to earn when you are younger...especially when you disrespect those who came before you. I agree that you don't have to respect someone just because of their age but I was taught to respect my elders until they proved unworthy. This is kind of off the subject but I started in the field of emergency medicine when I was 17 and remember reading studies on this treatment and changes in this drug protocol that seemed, to me as a novice, difficult to understand why the older physicians didn't adapt to the new changes. Twenty plus years later I've decided there are a couple of reasons for it: 1. people don't like to hear that what has worked for them for years is wrong (especially from someone with a lot less experience). 2. A lot of the "new" ways sound good on paper but don't hold up in real life experience. Just my two cents worth.

It just seems most people base their thoughts on training on the captive wolf model which is far from accurate. Nowhere does it say an Alfa role will not work, I just don't like hearing inaccurate comments like I do it because that's what a wolf does.

I know a few trainers and none of them are deep enough thinkers to base their training on anything but "this has worked 100 times before, i bet it will work this time too"

[legallyblonde]

I think research into dog behavior is exploding, and we're going to continue to learn more and more. I think there are a lot of old school misconceptions about behavior and beliefs as to why dogs do different things, and with all the new research coming out we're going to get a better understanding of our dogs. Many researchers I've heard speak at various conferences this past year have talked about how much more research is being conducted; in the past dogs weren't taken seriously by scientists but the complexities of their brains coupled with their inherent bond to humans has led to more interest and a second look. I love learning more about behavior to help me become a more successful trainer and to develop a better working relationship with my dogs.

I agree with what a few others have said on here, that so many hunting dog trainers seem to be very close minded about a lot of ideas about behavior, and in particular, use of positive reinforcement in training. I use primarily positive reinforcement in training all of my dogs, and have had fellow hunt trainers get offended and almost angry with me about it, which I have a hard time even wrapping my head around. I've not tried to force it on anyone else, nor condemn their methods of training, but people using old school methods seem to be quick to try to initiate an argument about my methods, and like to tell me how wrong I am. I'll probably get jumped on here for even bringing it up. I just wish there was a little more open-mindedness in the hunt world All other areas of dog sports and competitions seem to have a wide array of training methods, but not so much in the hunt world.

Oh and my positive methods have been working--my young GSP is 2.5 years old, and in that time I've put a Champion conformation title on him (least important to me), a NAVHDA NA Prize 1, a Started Hunting Retriever, and even a weight pull title. Next up for us is NAVHDA Utility

[Cajun Casey]

Bradshaw has a book out that expands on his behavioral models. He is also one if the driving forces behind the movement in Great Britain to address breeding for extreme comestic effect to the detriment of health and well being of the dogs themselves. One of the results of this campaign was that the BBC dropped coverage of Crufts.

[adogslife]

To use a broad term such as dominance to describe multi-faceted behaviors only leads to deeper misunderstanding of dog behavior.
Dominance is not agression. A dominant dog can be aggressive,for example when challenged. An aggressive dog is not dominant, they are social climbers,wannabes.A dog/animal can only be judged dominant through their interactions,otherwise,they are just existing.
Dominance behavior can look aggressive,but is not a form of aggression. Dominance is how a dog/animal interacts with others and can be largely based on the socialization (usually the lack of) of the individual.
Dominance is a form of motivation/drive that can only be couple with other compenents.
Dominance must be linked to temperment as a whole,nerve,drives,thresholds and therefore is mostly genetic,understanding how these relate to the individual dog/animal and how to apply the knowledge correctly is what creates balance. A trainer can be a leader to a domiant dog. A trainer does not need to exert harsh physical punishment in order to obtain control. The dog knows who is in control at any given moment. A human leader must know how to lead and stay leader. Not an easy task for most humans. Humans are prone to sudden bouts of aggression,frustration and confusion. Quick,decisive physical punishment is fair and is understood by the dog,it is after all, how they control the social climbers. Dominant dogs are not concerned with the day-in,day-out trivial actions of others. The dominant dog's responsibilty is to protect and provide resources. Dominant dogs will ignore the behavior of others that are not percieved as a threat.
Ignoring allows the other dog to realize they are not worthy of attention and their place in the pack may be lost if they overstep certain boundaries. The most effective way of controlling is through confident,secure leadership. Wolves control in this way.
Leaders lead,everyone else follows.

[adogslife]

Because postive reinforcement was mentioned I'd like to address it.
Positive reinforcement does not necessarily equal praise. positive reinforcement means to ADD something. So, if you give the dog something or something is added it is positive,if the behavior continues it is now positive reinforcement and if the behavior decreases it is positive punishment.
On the flip side:If something is taken away from dog and behaviour increases it is negative reinforcement but if behaviour decreases it is negative punishment.
As trainers we need to understand this in order read our dog and react to either reinforce or punish.

[Cajun Casey]

Punishment is reinforcement. Four quardrant learning is based on positive and negative REWARDS and PUNISHMENTS, the latter also referred to as adversives.

[Cajun Casey]

Punishment is reinforcement. Four quardrant learning is based on positive and negative REWARDS and PUNISHMENTS, the latter also referred to as adversives.

[Winchey]

I don't know how your definition of dominance conflicts with the one in the paper? If an aggressive encounter results in one dog submitting how can you not judge the dog who doesn't submit to not be dominant over the dog that did submit. They didn't say that the most aggressive dog is the most dominant.

[adogslife]

Correct.
My bad,
what I didn't post was that I re-read the paper again in it's entirety and am merely stating my views on dominance and how I apply it to animal relationships.

[Winchey]

I agree more or less with that post, but was confused because it is more in line with the paper then counter to it imo.

[adogslife]

There is only so much one can write on a forum.
We can only describe our own interactions and findings.
My interactions with dogs has led me to somewhat different views, but as a whole, in agreement with the paper.

Have you ever met a mentally stable, dominant dog?
They are confident and secure and all the other dogs know it. They are challenged by other dogs who believe they are the top dog. A dominate dog will ignore these dogs until they are physically confronted. A dominant dog does not bark often,does not get up and follow human from room to room,does not get up to greet human at door, does not pick petty fights and so on, they are secure in their environment and relationships.
It is easy to see who leads, if we know how to read dominance. No matter the species.
Most dogs are not dominant or do not care to exert their dominance. Most are quite happy to follow, if a strong leader is present. After all, someone has to lead. Trouble in interactions occur because humans do not know what they are doing,most humans anyway.

[Chukar12]

It is my belief that respect for your elders is an important quality and from my view one that exists in those as a value destined to achieve the most. In my opinion, there is more to be learned in practical application from experience and observation than there is from innovation. I think it is the nature of the youthful to "mark themselves out" to establish themselves or there beliefs as unique, and maybe more importanly because they lack the credibilty of experience they attempt to trade it for the credibility of enlightenment. All that being said, I am glad that my doctor is not attempting to cure my bout with Lyme's through the use of leaches. There is nothing wrong with embracing change and innovation, but there are darned few magic bullets out there.

I believe that for humans and dogs, there is much to be learned through the discomforts associated with failure, it makes the sweet spots sweeter and builds some callouses to help us get through the real work. I clicker train and I believe it helps me shape some behaviors...I don't formally train with verbal commands until I am ready to enforce the every time... (I do have some wild pups at times) I use body language and I let dogs figure out what gets them what they want and what causes discomfort without confusing them with my voice...it is just what works for me. I do not believe dogs want to please us, I believe they want us pleased, it is what works best for them.

[GUNDOGS]

There is only so much one can write on a forum.
We can only describe our own interactions and findings.
My interactions with dogs has led me to somewhat different views, but as a whole, in agreement with the paper.

Have you ever met a mentally stable, dominant dog?
They are confident and secure and all the other dogs know it. They are challenged by other dogs who believe they are the top dog. A dominate dog will ignore these dogs until they are physically confronted. A dominant dog does not bark often,does not get up and follow human from room to room,does not get up to greet human at door, does not pick petty fights and so on, they are secure in their environment and relationships.
It is easy to see who leads, if we know how to read dominance. No matter the species.
Most dogs are not dominant or do not care to exert their dominance. Most are quite happy to follow, if a strong leader is present. After all, someone has to lead. Trouble in interactions occur because humans do not know what they are doing,most humans anyway.

adogslife post here nails it imo, this is exactly how i feel and what i have observed, i have a dog just like this who is 2 years old and is a perfect dog if there is such a thing, my husband thinks hes too "submissive" but he is not and this has been a topic of conversation for us many many times..my dog is the dog that adogslife described to a tee and has no desire to dominate or challenge a dominate dog because hes secure and confident and knows I will deal with it because im his leader..for example someone walks by or theres a noise he hears outside he doesnt growl or bark or carry on because he trusts i will deal with it as "the boss", he doesnt have to...i have no doubt that a dogs behavior regarding stability, confidence and manners are influenced by its environment (training, exercise, exposures its interactions with other dogs and with people it encounters in its environment) but genetics also play a huge role in a dogs behavior because the genetic foundation the dog is wired with is imparitive...jmo..ruth

[Winchey]

"my view one that exists in those as a value destined to achieve the most." I agree, most butt kissers end up doing well for themselves. This championship has really gone to your head, you used to be modest

[Chukar12]

This championship has really gone to your head, you used to be modest

Well I am not sure whether to laugh or cry...My comments that you reference have nothing to do with dogs per se, simply my view of being polite. I don't think labeling people and their views based entirely on their age is appropriate, and I certainly still do not. The dangerous thing about a forum IMO is the information that is left to view historically can be embarrassing should someone stoop to the level of using it for purposes of no greater value than pointing out anothers weaknesses.

[Winchey]

I am lucky I don't have any weaknesses then I guess :roll:

[Chukar12]

...well see that settles it for me, I now can choose laughing. You go get em hotshot, I will keep a look out for your tail lights ahead...

[Winchey]

Don't bother, you'll never catch me with a Britt.

[ezzy333]

Don't bother, you'll never catch me with a Britt.

Might if you just turn around and go the right way.

Ezzy

[Winchey]

I have a setter, not a pointer. Geez who else can I offend, the self destruct button is stuck.

[rollick]

John Bradshaw's recent book "Dog Sense" is an interesting read. SO tired of hearing people stating how important it is to be "Alpha," although I will posit that's more for the individual's self-esteem (or lack thereof) than the dog's benefit.

[GUNDOGS]

John Bradshaw's recent book "Dog Sense" is an interesting read. SO tired of hearing people stating how important it is to be "Alpha," although I will posit that's more for the individual's self-esteem (or lack thereof) than the dog's benefit.

well i have an open mind and you caught my curiosity with your comment so, you dont agree a dog will try to "rule the roost" if it doesnt have a leader or alpha person in charge?? you dont think a dog is constantly seeking its role or place as far as pecking order in its family?? im interested in hearing your thoughts about why a particular dog is in charge within a pack of wild dogs, wolves or even amongst the other dogs in a home..its has always been very obvious to me when you go from one dog to even two dogs it automatically changes the dynamic of things, thoughts??....ruth

[ezzy333]

About 90% of the "alpha male and female"in wolves and wild dogs is about sex and reproduction. It has little to do with their hunting or normal daily living.

Ezzy

[nikegundog]

About 90% of the "alpha male and female"in wolves and wild dogs is about sex and reproduction. It has little to do with their hunting or normal daily living.

Ezzy

What about food? Has nothing to do about sex or reproduction, however isn't common for the alpha to eat first?

[ezzy333]

About 90% of the "alpha male and female"in wolves and wild dogs is about sex and reproduction. It has little to do with their hunting or normal daily living.

Ezzy

What about food? Has nothing to do about sex or reproduction, however isn't common for the alpha to eat first?

Not particularly for dogs like it is in wild cats. It will comein to play if the food supply gets short but then they eat first so they can carry it back for the pups. The reproduction habits as well as the number of offspring is pretty much contro;ed by the food supply.

Ezzy