Black GSP/DK vs the Hybred American GSP

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:33 pm

In order to address your question reasons for not allowing the color into the standard needs to be discussed.

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:41 pm

GSP/DK so they are the same breed????

Brushbustin Sporting Dogs · Post by **Brushbustin Sporting Dogs** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:46 pm

This has LOCKED written all over it!!!

proudag08 · Post by **proudag08** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:50 pm

Brushbustin Sporting Dogs wrote:This has LOCKED written all over it!!!

this...

ultracarry · Post by **ultracarry** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:16 pm

Copy. So kinda like the French Brittany and the American Brittany? They were all French until they got a shot of pointer in them to help find birds....

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:27 pm

You need to tone this down if you want to have a serious discussion. Too much vitriol. Not enough substance.

BTW, it's "hybrid", not "hybred" unless you're trying to make a pun of some kind.

AG74 · Post by **AG74** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:35 pm

I'm not a breeder/trialer or expert by any means, but when researching breeds last year before I got my GWP, I found out that most of the versatile breeds were indeed "created" in Europe (Germany in this case) by crossing different dogs. In the GWP for instance, I think it was GSP, PP, Griffon and one other dog. SO I looked up GSP. That was also "created" in Germany by crossing the English or Spanish pointer with what the AKC called "hounds" and the Deutsch Kurzhaar was born.

The Germans used and still do use very strict breeding standards for the DK and DD (Deutsch Drathaar). So, a GWP is simply a DD that conforms to AKC (or American) standards, but maybe not the German Standards (Verein Deutsch Drathaar).

Reading the AKC standards for the GWP, it looks like Black is not allowed, at all. Not sure how that works, since Black is allowed in EPs? And there is EP blood in all GSP and GWP???? That I'm not so sure about, becuase conformation doesn't mean a whole lot to me, since I don't breed or trial.

Bottom line is, I think you have to read the history of these breeds, then see what the European conformation standards are, then see if the American conformation standards are different or what. I suppose is you go back far enough, most dogs are just mutts, much like humans....

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:37 pm

gpblitz wrote:Why is it that so many are down on the Black DK brought in? Yet it's Ok that some took the Pure blood GSP cross bred to EP and developed a hybred mutt labeling them GSP!!!

Where are these people you speak of? I think most people abide and play by the rules. standard says no black, so no black. If that changed tomorrow NO ONE WOULD CARE, except maybe the show folks. I think most would agree that breeding to EP's is never ok.

Post by **Greg Jennings** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:37 pm

Bottom line is, I think you have to read the history of these breeds, then see what the European conformation standards are, then see if the American conformation standards are different or what. I suppose is you go back far enough, most dogs are just mutts, much like humans....

Everyone posting on this is very familiar with the history of the GSP and why black isn't in the GSPCA standard.

What I don't understand is why people are complaining. The process for the change is well known and has come up several times. You just need to get enough people interested enough to vote in the change.

Personally, I have no problem with the change.

markj · Post by **markj** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:44 pm

Yet it's Ok that some took the Pure blood GSP cross bred to EP and developed a hybred mutt labeling them GSP!!!

Well now some say it is so but who has proven it?

buy the dog you want and disregard the rest man!!

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 2:53 pm

I think most of the public agree but the FTER's that pull it sure didn't think so!!!

So, how many FTer's do it?

markj · Post by **markj** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:01 pm

Well looking a your dogs pedigree you got a dose of EP just like mine dogs do

Mighty bold talk for a one eyed fat man... oh no that was some other dude

Can you prove it beyond any doubt?

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:04 pm

Its clear that many "burd dawg" folk don't give a hoot about the concept of a breed, a standard much less tradition. What you have to laugh about is that you have one side demanding everything be white so you can see the dog....and then others caught up with how exotic black looks. If any breed has a chance, its only thanks to the folks that stick to the program....

Now you'll have to excuse me....a buddy is bringing over his orange/white EP....hoping I'll get a few "creamsicles" in my next DD litter

Gonna call 'em English Schnauzer Pointers....comes in all colors

gonna price them above Labradoodles.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:04 pm

gpblitz wrote:Well looking a your dogs pedigree you got a dose of EP just like mine dogs do.

Then whats the issue?

fishvik · Post by **fishvik** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:41 pm

Greg Jennings wrote:Everyone posting on this is very familiar with the history of the GSP and why black isn't in the GSPCA standard.

I'll bite. Is there a good bird dog, field reason for no black GSP's or is this just a appearence preference thing. I have a white and liver GSP and a black GWP/lab cross and they both are about as visible in the field as the other. Except in the snow and then Puck the GWP/Lab is alot easier to see. Solid liver GSP's would probably be as visible as my Puck. What's the story?

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:46 pm

I cannot speak for what's happened behind us, or frankly for organizations outside A/F and AKC...but in the years to come the required DNA registration of dogs in competition will eliminate the easy loopholes that exist for creative breeding practices. This solution is comprehensive enough for me.

Vision · Post by **Vision** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:56 pm

gpblitz wrote:Why is it that so many are down on the Black DK brought in? Yet it's Ok that some took the Pure blood GSP cross bred to EP and developed a hybred mutt labeling them GSP!!!

I'm not sure I understand the romance with a DK as purebred dog. The Germans crossed EP into them to get higher noses after they had established the breed. So calling the US version of GSP a mutt and referring to the DK as purebred smacks of hypocrisy to me.

Genetically they are virtually the same breed. They all have the same common ancestors in their background.

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:57 pm

The point is we can Bash the Black put turn the cheek to the hybred we developed here...

I guess i must have missed the black bashing. I think a bigger deal is being made of this then actually exist. My personal preference for GSP's is liver roan. Black and roan dogs look ok. I would never own a solid black or liver GSP, just don't care for them. I agree with Chukar12 on the DNA.

fishvik · Post by **fishvik** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:01 pm

Chukar12 wrote:I cannot speak for what's happened behind us, or frankly for organizations outside A/F and AKC...but in the years to come the required DNA registration of dogs in competition will eliminate the easy loopholes that exist for creative breeding practices. This solution is comprehensive enough for me.

Ok, I'm not a trial participant but if it is not a breed trial(like a britt trial), but a open pointer trial or retriever trial, why not let a hybrid compete? Is it just a future breeding potential thing for money. It seems the hound guys are alot less hung up on this breed thing in raising dogs then bird dog guys are.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:07 pm

Well...when I was a hound guy the UKC trials I was in had mixed breed classes but others were pure UKC registration? The AKC afiliation and the FDSB are traditionally for showcasing purebred breeding stock in the chosen performance format. It is that way I suppose because the participants who support the organizations choose for it to be so.

adogslife · Post by **adogslife** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:10 pm

The Germans bred a strain of EPs, the Arkwright Pointer.
These were solid black dogs.

Anyone tired of the AKC can buy a DK.

Chukar12 · Post by **Chukar12** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:17 pm

...I just realized I am a dog... "Moderate"...I don't want a free for all, but digressions and cheating by breeders is sort of a casual annoyance for me that i assume works itself out eventually when the perpetrators are ostricized and cannot enjoy their ill gotten gains as others scoff at their success...after all its just dogs right? When I look at other countries...I can't see their dog culture. I am too busy wondering about their political and financial structure, and their contribution to humanity...

markj · Post by **markj** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:43 pm

you have one side demanding everything be white so you can see the dog....and then others caught up with how exotic black looks.

I kinda like a well ticked dog. But thats just me.

Soooo, still upset over a dog you bought or what? and please show me how the dna testing will show ep or whatever, did they find the gsp type yet or are they still having troubles tieing that one down?

Buy what you want and like, and forgettaboutit. or are you just getting yer kicks over this type of controversy? which is sick IMHO. there are so many other causes like peta for instance you can join and creat havoc.

AG74 · Post by **AG74** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:51 pm

Greg Jennings wrote:
Bottom line is, I think you have to read the history of these breeds, then see what the European conformation standards are, then see if the American conformation standards are different or what. I suppose is you go back far enough, most dogs are just mutts, much like humans....
Everyone posting on this is very familiar with the history of the GSP and why black isn't in the GSPCA standard.

What I don't understand is why people are complaining. The process for the change is well known and has come up several times. You just need to get enough people interested enough to vote in the change.

Personally, I have no problem with the change.

Yes Sir, you are correct - everyone else on this post is probably more familiar with the history of the GSP than I am, and I am NOT familiar with the reason black is not in the GSPCA standard. I've always wondered that. My buddy has a 100% black GSP... well, if black isn't allowed, then what kind of dog does my friend have?

Its been my belief that if a certain color isn't allowed, then it must be because the color would indicate an impure trait in the breed. So, I guessed that my friend's all black GSP had more of something else in him than GSP... I know that black isn't allowed in the VDD standards, but I think it is ok in GWPs by the AKC standards... or maybe the other way around... either way, I see lots of wirehaired dogs with black in their coat.... So, what gives? Can any breed club have their own conformation standards? Can GSPCA have different breed standards than the AKC for GSP? I'm not trying to be ornery, just trying to learn by asking a serious question. Thanks,

BTW, I had a trainer tell me that solid liver was the ONLY color for GSPs, and he referred to WAY back in the old days (medieval times) that dogs not of a solid color were killed by the monarchy. that's why Weimareiners, Vizslas, etc, etc are all solid color dogs... Sounded far fetched to me, esp since I'd never seen a solid GSP until that day...

rschmeider · Post by **rschmeider** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:54 pm

My IMHO..The pure breed GSP is a very Fine bird dog ,but when it gets hot out they melt....My good friend has a nice string of EP's and when we are in competition at a FT's,he starts doing a happy dance when the sun gets blazing

...DK's can't handle heat above 80 degrees...I have won a FT in the upper 80's, but only 1/2 hr braces...You can't even run 2hrs above 80 dergrees with humidity..I'm talking about a dog running/trialing...I would bet when GSP's got ther first shoot of EP, it was in the South...I just can not see how you could run a Dk in Texas..The FT crowd thinks the blacks get hotter. :roll: Has nothing to do with it ...It's the coat/hide on a DK..Most FT are ran in the heat ..They love cold weather...I really hope the Blacks never get in the show ring ,because they will screw them up like the rest...I am working 9 black and brown GSP/DK no whites at this time..

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:10 pm

I have a moderately large (25") white male and a small (22-1/2") patched dark roan male. Neither has a problem with endurance or being seen. However, they both have grow up training hard in the 100+ degree summer and they live outside, just like the pointers they train alongside.

larue · Post by **larue** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:16 pm

I will vote to allow black into the gspca standards the day that dk's allow me to test an akc pedigree'd gsp in there testing format.
I would say that would be fair,allow dk bred dogs(black ones) to compete in akc conformation events,while I can run an american akc bred dog in dk events.

AHGSP · Post by **AHGSP** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:25 pm

Ehhh, the Americans aren't the only ones that have had problems with those little indiscriminate breedings to Pointers in the past....
DK's being pure all the way back? Here is just 1 example from "The Complete German Shorthaired Pointer" by Seiger and Dewitz-Colpin regarding Mars Altenau from page 99, paragraph 2:

"The pedigree indicates "Rino Pfaffendorf" 519 K as the grandsire of "Fatme Altenau" 68 P, the dam of "Mars".That is wrong. Not "Rino Pfaffendorf" 519 K, but a good working Pointer covered the beautiful "Elfriede v.d.Hardt" 96 W and sired "Hassan Altenau" 712 K, who was the grandsire of "Mars Altenau".

rschmeider · Post by **rschmeider** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:04 pm

Cajun Casey wrote:I have a moderately large (25") white male and a small (22-1/2") patched dark roan male. Neither has a problem with endurance or being seen. However, they both have grow up training hard in the 100+ degree summer and they live outside, just like the pointers they train alongside.

I don't and will not run my dogs in 100 degrees ..WHY??? Maybe PA to OK humidity makes a big differance...Do have close GSP lines with out EP blood????When i'm hunting , my dogs will lay it down for hrs. and hrs. when its cool out... If you want a GSP ....run /hunt a GSP....If you want a EP...run/ hunt a Pointer.

IMO .....NAVDA/HT bred GSP have better Noses( dbbl.barrel noses) .If i want more run in my Dogs, it's not real hard to find...I like to play all the games in the end its all about the breed...

brad27 · Post by **brad27** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:36 pm

IMO .....NAVDA/HT bred GSP have better Noses( dbbl.barrel noses) .If i want more run in my Dogs, it's not real hard to find...I like to play all the games in the end its all about the breed...

So EP's can't find birds?

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:58 pm

The Germans crossed EP into them to get higher noses after they had established the breed. So calling the US version of GSP a mutt and referring to the DK as purebred smacks of hypocrisy to me.

When the German breeds were being formed, crossbreeding was allowed. That was 70-80 years ago. People were open about the crosses that were made. That's where the notations concerning the motherline of dogs appears on pedigrees. There was no attempt to hide what dogs were being bred.

Does anyone seriously think with 100,000 GSP in the world, there is a need to crossbreed? Of course there isn't. Its done for selfish reasons...to get an edge...to win...certainly isn't to make the dogs look better.

There are always a few bozos in any activity.

I'm willing to bet a lot of folks are honest...but a few aren't ....and there others that just wink...its sad that folks think that winning with such dogs really means anything.

I have won a FT in the upper 80's, but only 1/2 hr braces...You can't even run 2hrs above 80 dergrees with humidity..

The breed was never conceived as a 90 degree trial dog. Why make a dragster out of an SUV....just get a Pointer.

volraider · Post by **volraider** » Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:49 am

I've heard more than one field trialer comment on how a dog has to good of nose. A dog that points it's birds aways off makes it harder on the handler to produce a bird. For those of us who love to play games but are hunters first, we want the full choke noses. IMO because of the bird numbers, SOME NAVHDA and Trialers are raising more and more dogs that can't cut it on wild birds. They spend all their time playing games and not hunting plus I'm seeing some NAVHDA people who have never hunted a wild bird. The last trial I ran in I was talking to a handler and they told me they have never wild bird hunted, they will have a litter of pups this fall so it's every where. People are turning out dogs that don't have enough drive to hunt longer than 30 minutes without finding a bird. Wow now that's a little off topic.

jimbo&rooster · Post by **jimbo&rooster** » Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:08 am

JKP wrote:
The Germans crossed EP into them to get higher noses after they had established the breed. So calling the US version of GSP a mutt and referring to the DK as purebred smacks of hypocrisy to me.
When the German breeds were being formed, crossbreeding was allowed. That was 70-80 years ago. People were open about the crosses that were made. That's where the notations concerning the motherline of dogs appears on pedigrees. There was no attempt to hide what dogs were being bred.

So im not a studied as a few of ya'll, but if the germans were crossbreeding 70-80 yrs ago to produce the dog they wanted thats not a real long time. Since the GSP (from my reading) never got real popular in the US untill after WWII, Why does it not also seem reasonable that the American hunter might want to fudge the lines a little to produce a dog that was better suited for what we were using the dogs for? WHile im sure there is a small hand full of GSP owners out there that use there dogs across the board as versatile hunting dogs I would assume that the vast majority of them are birddogs and will never track a dear or bay a hog. The only real difference that i see is where the Germans gave permission to produce mutts while the Americans with their ever pioneering spirit

, just did it......

As far as black GSP goes, I dont really care what the show ring allows, As long as I can put my dogs on the ground and find birds and I can play the games I want to play I really could care less.... ( dont have a black dog but im trying)

JIm

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:40 am

Just to set things straight with the history buffs, WWII BEGAN over 70 years ago, Arkwright pointers were bred and maintained by one of the foremost authorities of the breed in ENGLAND, and most early, formative, handwritten studbooks on any breed are totally subjective on the part of the registrar. These facts have been pointed out in several histories of the breed.

Crestonegsp · Post by **Crestonegsp** » Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:43 am

I am not sure if you understand the GSPs in America and not all have Pointer somewhere behind them and to make such a statement is very misleading. Have a few people tried to breed something into certain lines to get what they believe is an advantage, sure and those of us who look stay away from those lines don't agree with the practice. Just because a GSP is mostly white does not mean it is from another breed and if you think pointer or setter is what was used you don't have as much knowledge as you think you do. I had a guy tell me if a GSP has pink toe nails it's got pointer in it, you talk about uninformed people. How do you think Black got into the GSP line, 100 years ago a Black pointer was breed to liver GSPs and used to change the breed, so why was that ok? I used to got train weekly with a few NAVHDA and DK people and for me those were not the dogs for me. They were ok foot hunting dogs but had a few things that I did not like.

The point is if you want a DK/NAVHDA GSP that is fine with me but I want and American GSP because it suits what I do. I do not look down at DK/NAVHDA dogs they serve their purpose just not for me. The American GSP has evolved into a great dog and in looking back at the history of the GSP is this not what they have been all along a dog that has evolved and been improved upon as time goes on. If you want to rail against someone in the breed maybe you should go to a show and see the 28 inch 80 pound GSPs getting put up.

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:45 am

Since the GSP (from my reading) never got real popular in the US until after WWII, Why does it not also seem reasonable that the American hunter might want to fudge the lines a little to produce a dog that was better suited for what we were using the dogs for?

You don't need to outcross...there are enough GSP such you can find any kind of dog you want. The question is are you going to tell folks or are you gonna lie and hand them a phony pedigree??...and wink

If somebody will lie to you once, they lie to you again....dogs are about who you trust....like anything else in business.

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:54 am

Crestonegsp wrote:I am not sure if you understand the GSPs in America and not all have Pointer somewhere behind them and to make such a statement is very misleading. Have a few people tried to breed something into certain lines to get what they believe is an advantage, sure and those of us who look stay away from those lines don't agree with the practice. Just because a GSP is mostly white does not mean it is from another breed and if you think pointer or setter is what was used you don't have as much knowledge as you think you do. I had a guy tell me if a GSP has pink toe nails it's got pointer in it, you talk about uninformed people. How do you think Black got into the GSP line, 100 years ago a Black pointer was breed to liver GSPs and used to change the breed, so why was that ok? I used to got train weekly with a few NAVHDA and DK people and for me those were not the dogs for me. They were ok foot hunting dogs but had a few things that I did not like.

The point is if you want a DK/NAVHDA GSP that is fine with me but I want and American GSP because it suits what I do. I do not look down at DK/NAVHDA dogs they serve their purpose just not for me. The American GSP has evolved into a great dog and in looking back at the history of the GSP is this not what they have been all along a dog that has evolved and been improved upon as time goes on. If you want to rail against someone in the breed maybe you should go to a show and see the 28 inch 80 pound GSPs getting put up.

You neglected to mention the bitchy head and straight front.

art hubbard · Post by **art hubbard** » Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:09 am

for what it's worth, I lived in Germany from 1962 thru 1964, I saw many white and liver GSP's but never saw a solid black or black and white.

AG74 · Post by **AG74** » Sat Dec 03, 2011 11:11 am

Crestonegsp wrote:I am not sure if you understand the GSPs in America and not all have Pointer somewhere behind them and to make such a statement is very misleading. Have a few people tried to breed something into certain lines to get what they believe is an advantage, sure and those of us who look stay away from those lines don't agree with the practice. Just because a GSP is mostly white does not mean it is from another breed and if you think pointer or setter is what was used you don't have as much knowledge as you think you do. I had a guy tell me if a GSP has pink toe nails it's got pointer in it, you talk about uninformed people. How do you think Black got into the GSP line, 100 years ago a Black pointer was breed to liver GSPs and used to change the breed, so why was that ok? I used to got train weekly with a few NAVHDA and DK people and for me those were not the dogs for me. They were ok foot hunting dogs but had a few things that I did not like.

The point is if you want a DK/NAVHDA GSP that is fine with me but I want and American GSP because it suits what I do. I do not look down at DK/NAVHDA dogs they serve their purpose just not for me. The American GSP has evolved into a great dog and in looking back at the history of the GSP is this not what they have been all along a dog that has evolved and been improved upon as time goes on. If you want to rail against someone in the breed maybe you should go to a show and see the 28 inch 80 pound GSPs getting put up.

Are you saying there are German Shorthaired Pointers in America with NO pointer blood lines? I was of the understanding that the Duetsch Kurzhaar (ancestor to American GSP) breed was created from the German Bird Dog, which was a descendant of the Spanish Pointer. Furthermore that English Pointer was introduced to "add elegance" to the breed...?
Doesn't the name, "German Shorthaired POINTER" indicate that there is pointer blood in the breed?

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:37 pm

I believe the original application to AKC was for the German Shorthaired Pointer Retriever. The organization would not accept the dual description and the applying national breed club chose pointer for the name.

Vonzeppelinkennels · Post by **Vonzeppelinkennels** » Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:38 pm

Ok I have been trying to stay out of both this thread & the one I started as they will go nowhere but Howie PM'd me last night & ask me to comment on this.
Though Howie & I disagree on this subject we both respect each others opinions,so here goes.

This is America,not Germany we don't hunt like the Germans nor the same wild Game as the Germans so the GSP in this country has been bred to suit the needs of the hunters in this country.
I breed bird dogs but have seen if allowed they still have the drive & natural abilities to do what the Germans created the breed for IF the owners see fit to let them develop & help them develop those abilities.
Most do not they discourage them.

This is America we have the right to breed dogs as we see fit no dog breeding wardens to say we can't,we also have a choice to vote for or against the Standard change when the ballots show up.
If you honestly believe that Black can improve the breed then you should vote FOR the change if not then against.The only thing they can't particapate in that I'm aware of is dog shows.
Tell me do you think Dog Shows have improved the GSP breed or any breed for that matter?

This here confuses me,are the Black dogs DKs or are they GSPS like I have claimed all along one & the same.Dk people say the DKs are a different breed & if that is the case what right do they have trying to change the GSPCA standard so they can show against a different breed?????????? Oh & I been told by a few why would anyone owning a DK want to reg it a GSP so make up your mind you can't have it both ways.

Now I'm done posting on the open forum,I realised the other night that at my age I still have so much to learn & people half my age & younger have all the answers & more experience so I will leave it all up to them to straigthen it out.
Thank you & goodbye to a few friends I have here
Ted

AG74 · Post by **AG74** » Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:52 pm

The word Pointer was added by Americans[/quote]

Deutscher Kurzhaariger Vorstehhund?

Crestonegsp · Post by **Crestonegsp** » Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:21 pm

gpblitz you seem to have an issue with the GSP as it is America today. The American GSP is an accomplished field dog and different breeds were used to develop it but the fact that you miss is there are plenty of lines of GSPs in America that are GSPs and no other breed.

The whole black thing makes no difference to me and is a hang up other people have.

Ted is correct we need dogs for the game and style of hunting we have here and if you want to hunt in Germany have at it.

Adam · Post by **Adam** » Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:28 pm

[quote="Crestonegsp"
The point is if you want a DK/NAVHDA GSP that is fine with me but I want and American GSP because it suits what I do. I do not look down at DK/NAVHDA dogs they serve their purpose just not for me. The American GSP has evolved into a great dog and in looking back at the history of the GSP is this not what they have been all along a dog that has evolved and been improved upon as time goes on. If you want to rail against someone in the breed maybe you should go to a show and see the 28 inch 80 pound GSPs getting put up.[/quote]

Don't know what shows you've attended but I haven't ever seen a 28 inch dog win 26 inch maybe at the biggest..

As for black I'd have a different feeling on it if the people that were pushing to get black added to the standard were DK people that had black dogs but instead they're people that didn't want to follow the standard and now want it changed to suit their breeding programs....

AG74 · Post by **AG74** » Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:29 pm

gpblitz wrote:
AG74 wrote:Deutscher Kurzhaariger Vorstehhund?
Where did you come up with this? What does it mean in english? Never mind I found it used on the Spainish club website.

translation: GERMAN SHORTHAIRED POINTER

Deutsch - the name Germans call themselves
Kurz - short
Haar - hair
vor - before (or in front of)
steh - stand
hund - dog
vorstehhund - pointing dog (a "stand in front of" dog, or dog that stands before (in front of) something)

Cajun Casey · Post by **Cajun Casey** » Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:10 pm

All shorthaired German pointing dogs are created equal, but some are created more equal than others.

Crestonegsp · Post by **Crestonegsp** » Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:30 pm

Adam wrote:[quote="Crestonegsp"
The point is if you want a DK/NAVHDA GSP that is fine with me but I want and American GSP because it suits what I do. I do not look down at DK/NAVHDA dogs they serve their purpose just not for me. The American GSP has evolved into a great dog and in looking back at the history of the GSP is this not what they have been all along a dog that has evolved and been improved upon as time goes on. If you want to rail against someone in the breed maybe you should go to a show and see the 28 inch 80 pound GSPs getting put up.

Don't know what shows you've attended but I haven't ever seen a 28 inch dog win 26 inch maybe at the biggest..

As for black I'd have a different feeling on it if the people that were pushing to get black added to the standard were DK people that had black dogs but instead they're people that didn't want to follow the standard and now want it changed to suit their breeding programs....[/quote]
Adam-My daughter is showing a 25 inch+ dog and he is the smallest in the ring everytime. 28 inch dogs and 25 inch bitches all over the country not sure how many shows you have ever been to but I will be happy to name them in a PM. The show ring has big dogs that can't get out of their own way and could not find a bird in a phone booth.

gpblitz wrote:
Crestonegsp wrote:gpblitz you seem to have an issue with the GSP as it is America today.
I have no problem with The American GSP. What I have problem with is that some folks cross bred to EP for field trial purpose and falsely reg. that's my beef!!!! Don't you think we could have developed the GSP into what it is today as some have without the dishonesty of some, I do... Covered in another Topic the small e pops up in some lines. That's EP.
gblitz-I alaso take issue with those who try to pass off a GSP with a false pedigree. Don't think that EPs are the only thing hide behind the woodshed.

Crestonegsp wrote:Ted is correct we need dogs for the game and style of hunting we have here and if you want to hunt in Germany have at it.

Ted is correct. We need dogs for the game and style of hunting we have here.

Adam · Post by **Adam** » Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:41 pm

Please send in a PM what dogs are 28 inches I live in the midwest "land of the giants" and have yet to see a true 28 inch dog in the ring.....

JKP · Post by **JKP** » Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:34 pm

Ted is correct. We need dogs for the game and style of hunting we have here.

I accept that but to think there aren't dogs in many other countries that couldn't come here and roll 2-400 yds to the front would be making a huge mistake. Go to Denmark and for the end of year brace trials....go to Italy, Serbia, France....I think some folks need to look beyond the back porch. Crossbreeding is for the lazy.

Occasionally I meet a young woman when roading my dogs. She has a 24" DK male...15 months old...that runs 400 yd casts in front of her...always checks back and comes to the whistle...dog is a pet....somebody missed a great opportunity.

ACooper · Post by **ACooper** » Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:36 pm

I agree with Howie in that the problem isn't with thd infusion of pointer blood. The problem is deception, cheating, and false pedigrees.